4TB external HD

On 26/06/2018 03:20, Paul wrote:
Brian Gregory wrote:
On 25/06/2018 23:44, Paul wrote:
Brian Gregory wrote:
On 25/06/2018 22:01, Ed Cryer wrote:
Ed Cryer wrote:
Paul wrote:
Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 12:53:03 +0100, Ed Cryer

wrote:

I have a Seagate 4TB external HD, powered, like this;
https://goo.gl/q1z7RC

It works fine with Win7. No sign of trouble.
But when I plug it into Win10 the system dies. Strangely, when
I boot with it plugged in, everything goes fine.

There's nothing relative in the Windows Log, other than info
that the system didn't shut down properly before the reboot.

Has anybody seen this? Or, any hunches as to what's causing it?

Ed

I had a similar problem with a Verbatim drive. It was fixed by a
new
driver that was applied by an automatic update. I assume Seagate
have
some driver fixes.
Steve


It should be using a regular USB Mass Storage driver.

The drive is 3.5" and has an external 12V @ 1.5A adapter.
The question would be, where does the +5V come from.

A lot of drive enclosures, convert some of the 12V to 5V to
run the logic board on the hard drive. So rather than the
wall adapter having four wires like a Molex, only +12V comes
from the adapter, and the +5V is produced on site.

(Wall +12V ------------ Adapter ---- +12V ------ Hard drive motor
Â* Wart) GND ------------ BoardÂ*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ---- +5VÂ* ------ Hard drive
logic board
(not all pins shown)
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +5VSB ------------ USB toÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX+ ------ Hard drive
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D+Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* SATAÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX- ------ data
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D-Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ConverterÂ*Â*Â* RX+ ------ connector
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* GND ------------- ChipÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* RX- ------ 7 pin (3 GND)

The USB cable by comparison, has a source of +5VSB at
up to 900mA on USB3. If the ATX power supply doesn't
have sufficient +5VSB rating, and you actually
overload +5VSB, it can cause the motherboard to shut
off. Instead of doing a restart, it would appear to
spontaneously shut off.

Maybe they made it like this, but... unlikely.

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +12V ------------ Adapter ---- +12V ------ Hard drive motor
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* GND ------------ BoardÂ*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +-------------- +5VÂ* ------ Hard drive logic
board
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* |
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +5VSB ---------+-- USBÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX+ ------ Hard drive
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D+Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* SATAÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX- ------ data
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D-Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ConverterÂ*Â* RX+ ------ connector
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* GND ------------- ChipÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* RX- ------ 7 pin (3 GND)


But even though that looks bad, it's not possible to
tell from the outside, exactly how the external storage
box was designed.

If it was a driver issue, you'd expect to see some
error info in the Reliability Monitor related to the
driver.

The drive might not be spinning when it is plugged
in during a session, but spinup current comes from
the 12V 1.5A adapter, rather than the USB bus cable.
The USB bus cable should only power the adapter
board inside the enclosure. Or in a more exotic
design, the bus power could also be used to run
the hard drive logic board.

For a driver issue, you'd expect to see a BSOD on the
screen for a short time. If you disabled automatic
restart, then the BSOD would stay on the screen longer.
If it really is a power issue (crushing of +5VSB) then
changing the automatic restart setting would not change
the symptoms.

If the computer shuts off and doesn't restart, that
sounds more like a +5VSB issue.

And while placing a USB3 powered hub between the
computer box and the external drive would sound
like fun, those aren't always designed properly
either. Sometimes there are undesired interactions
between the downstream +5V on the powered hub,
versus the +5VSB on the host side of the hub box
(the "backfeed" problem).

If an iPad was being charged off the PC, at the
same time the HDD enclosure had the USB data
cable plugged in, that would represent a pretty
heavy load on +5VSB (several amps).

Â*Â*Â* Paul

Hi Paul.

I've just tried it on another Win10 box and it works perfectly there.
I took it back to the faulting box, booted with it in, uninstalled
it, rebooted ...... problem still there.

I've not had any other USB problem with the box. I've plugged in
other HDs, memory sticks, external bluray writer. All fine.

Ed


The main difference that leaps out at me is that the 4TB drive has
a power adaptor; none of the other devices do.

Ed


My theory:
The power supply on the drive is cheap Chinese rubbish and has no
earthing and measurable mains voltage leakage and the PC shuts down
when a small spark jumps from the USB cable to the PC as you insert
the USB connector.

If the drive's power supply is earthed through to it's output then
maybe the PC isn't earthed or an earth loops is causing current flow
that crashes the PC.


I would be alarmed if I saw sparks fly between the PC USB
connector and a powered USB 3.5" drive.

The ground shell touches first, and we'd be talking about
a spark-into-ground event, with the possibility of
crosstalk between the shield and internal conductors
to upset other electronics. This tends to be worse on
*front* panel connectors. Due to the front connectors
never being earthed properly (typically set in plastic,
and only the shield on the cable provides ground). The
back connectors have obvious physical paths to chassis,
and a slightly lesser chance of induced upset.

The wall adapter has 230V on one side. The HiPot test
is supposed to verify 1100V withstanding for some
period of seconds. But the sticker or proof of test
might not be visible from the outside. ATX supplies
sometimes have a visual indication on them that
they've been HiPot tested. It's best to apply the
test after final assembly, as if anyone makes a dopey
mistake, the test might catch it.

The transformer(s) themselves could be HiPot tested,
and that's probably done on the transformer manufacturing
line. But that's not likely to be the last test.
You want a final test, to verify no creepage & clearance
problems, or solder splashes where they don't belong.
Visual inspection (even robotic) isn't enough for
safety purposes. If someone files a law suit
against you, you can show the HiPot stamp on the
unit, show the court your test station for the
procedure and so on. For whatever that's worth.

If you do see a spark, well, stop using it :-)
If the design is intended to float, it should
not throw sparks. And there's no reason for
that test case to violate the HiPot max.
If you raised the PC chassis thousands of volts
above the rest of the house, yes, you'll see
a spark on the resulting multiple HiPot failures.

Â*Â*Â* Paul

I said small spark.

I've seen this happen on an HP printer. A Deskjet 720 if I remember
correctly. Luckily I could leave it connect all the time so it
wouldn't crash the PC.

I still don't see you properly describing exactly what happens, a
crash or a power off or what.


If you short +5VSB to ground, you get a power off.

If you inject a transient into an I/O connector,
you're likely to get a "reset" pulse or "restart".
There's no reason for the power to drop, with
some various transients. The "restart" might
be caused by a CPU crash, followed by automatic
recovery. If you set the automatic restart to disabled,
then the BSOD should stay on the screen.

The OPs symptoms sound as much like a +5VSB short
to ground, as anything a driver could do. With
a driver problem, you'd expect some breadcrumbs
in the form of a BSOD, a descriptive entry in
Event Viewer, or a dot on the Reliability Monitor
screen.

Â*Â* Paul

Okay believe I'm a liar if you wish.
Makes no difference to me.

--

Brian Gregory (in England).

Paul wrote:
Brian Gregory wrote:
On 25/06/2018 23:44, Paul wrote:
Brian Gregory wrote:
On 25/06/2018 22:01, Ed Cryer wrote:
Ed Cryer wrote:
Paul wrote:
Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 12:53:03 +0100, Ed Cryer

wrote:

I have a Seagate 4TB external HD, powered, like this;
https://goo.gl/q1z7RC

It works fine with Win7. No sign of trouble.
But when I plug it into Win10 the system dies. Strangely, when
I boot with it plugged in, everything goes fine.

There's nothing relative in the Windows Log, other than info
that the system didn't shut down properly before the reboot.

Has anybody seen this? Or, any hunches as to what's causing it?

Ed

I had a similar problem with a Verbatim drive. It was fixed by a
new
driver that was applied by an automatic update. I assume Seagate
have
some driver fixes.
Steve


It should be using a regular USB Mass Storage driver.

The drive is 3.5" and has an external 12V @ 1.5A adapter.
The question would be, where does the +5V come from.

A lot of drive enclosures, convert some of the 12V to 5V to
run the logic board on the hard drive. So rather than the
wall adapter having four wires like a Molex, only +12V comes
from the adapter, and the +5V is produced on site.

(Wall +12V ------------ Adapter ---- +12V ------ Hard drive motor
Â* Wart) GND ------------ BoardÂ*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ---- +5VÂ* ------ Hard drive
logic board
(not all pins shown)
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +5VSB ------------ USB toÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX+ ------ Hard drive
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D+Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* SATAÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX- ------ data
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D-Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ConverterÂ*Â*Â* RX+ ------ connector
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* GND ------------- ChipÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* RX- ------ 7 pin (3 GND)

The USB cable by comparison, has a source of +5VSB at
up to 900mA on USB3. If the ATX power supply doesn't
have sufficient +5VSB rating, and you actually
overload +5VSB, it can cause the motherboard to shut
off. Instead of doing a restart, it would appear to
spontaneously shut off.

Maybe they made it like this, but... unlikely.

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +12V ------------ Adapter ---- +12V ------ Hard drive motor
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* GND ------------ BoardÂ*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +-------------- +5VÂ* ------ Hard drive logic
board
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* |
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +5VSB ---------+-- USBÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX+ ------ Hard drive
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D+Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* SATAÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX- ------ data
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D-Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ConverterÂ*Â* RX+ ------ connector
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* GND ------------- ChipÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* RX- ------ 7 pin (3 GND)


But even though that looks bad, it's not possible to
tell from the outside, exactly how the external storage
box was designed.

If it was a driver issue, you'd expect to see some
error info in the Reliability Monitor related to the
driver.

The drive might not be spinning when it is plugged
in during a session, but spinup current comes from
the 12V 1.5A adapter, rather than the USB bus cable.
The USB bus cable should only power the adapter
board inside the enclosure. Or in a more exotic
design, the bus power could also be used to run
the hard drive logic board.

For a driver issue, you'd expect to see a BSOD on the
screen for a short time. If you disabled automatic
restart, then the BSOD would stay on the screen longer.
If it really is a power issue (crushing of +5VSB) then
changing the automatic restart setting would not change
the symptoms.

If the computer shuts off and doesn't restart, that
sounds more like a +5VSB issue.

And while placing a USB3 powered hub between the
computer box and the external drive would sound
like fun, those aren't always designed properly
either. Sometimes there are undesired interactions
between the downstream +5V on the powered hub,
versus the +5VSB on the host side of the hub box
(the "backfeed" problem).

If an iPad was being charged off the PC, at the
same time the HDD enclosure had the USB data
cable plugged in, that would represent a pretty
heavy load on +5VSB (several amps).

Â*Â*Â* Paul

Hi Paul.

I've just tried it on another Win10 box and it works perfectly there.
I took it back to the faulting box, booted with it in, uninstalled
it, rebooted ...... problem still there.

I've not had any other USB problem with the box. I've plugged in
other HDs, memory sticks, external bluray writer. All fine.

Ed


The main difference that leaps out at me is that the 4TB drive has
a power adaptor; none of the other devices do.

Ed


My theory:
The power supply on the drive is cheap Chinese rubbish and has no
earthing and measurable mains voltage leakage and the PC shuts down
when a small spark jumps from the USB cable to the PC as you insert
the USB connector.

If the drive's power supply is earthed through to it's output then
maybe the PC isn't earthed or an earth loops is causing current flow
that crashes the PC.


I would be alarmed if I saw sparks fly between the PC USB
connector and a powered USB 3.5" drive.

The ground shell touches first, and we'd be talking about
a spark-into-ground event, with the possibility of
crosstalk between the shield and internal conductors
to upset other electronics. This tends to be worse on
*front* panel connectors. Due to the front connectors
never being earthed properly (typically set in plastic,
and only the shield on the cable provides ground). The
back connectors have obvious physical paths to chassis,
and a slightly lesser chance of induced upset.

The wall adapter has 230V on one side. The HiPot test
is supposed to verify 1100V withstanding for some
period of seconds. But the sticker or proof of test
might not be visible from the outside. ATX supplies
sometimes have a visual indication on them that
they've been HiPot tested. It's best to apply the
test after final assembly, as if anyone makes a dopey
mistake, the test might catch it.

The transformer(s) themselves could be HiPot tested,
and that's probably done on the transformer manufacturing
line. But that's not likely to be the last test.
You want a final test, to verify no creepage & clearance
problems, or solder splashes where they don't belong.
Visual inspection (even robotic) isn't enough for
safety purposes. If someone files a law suit
against you, you can show the HiPot stamp on the
unit, show the court your test station for the
procedure and so on. For whatever that's worth.

If you do see a spark, well, stop using it :-)
If the design is intended to float, it should
not throw sparks. And there's no reason for
that test case to violate the HiPot max.
If you raised the PC chassis thousands of volts
above the rest of the house, yes, you'll see
a spark on the resulting multiple HiPot failures.

Â*Â*Â* Paul

I said small spark.

I've seen this happen on an HP printer. A Deskjet 720 if I remember
correctly. Luckily I could leave it connect all the time so it
wouldn't crash the PC.

I still don't see you properly describing exactly what happens, a
crash or a power off or what.


If you short +5VSB to ground, you get a power off.

If you inject a transient into an I/O connector,
you're likely to get a "reset" pulse or "restart".
There's no reason for the power to drop, with
some various transients. The "restart" might
be caused by a CPU crash, followed by automatic
recovery. If you set the automatic restart to disabled,
then the BSOD should stay on the screen.

The OPs symptoms sound as much like a +5VSB short
to ground, as anything a driver could do. With
a driver problem, you'd expect some breadcrumbs
in the form of a BSOD, a descriptive entry in
Event Viewer, or a dot on the Reliability Monitor
screen.

Â*Â* Paul

Out of curiosity I tried the drive on my Win10 tablet. No problem, just
as with my Win7 and other Win10. I also closed the curtains before
plugging the drive in, and no sign of a spark.

All that went so well that I felt heartened to try again ... and same
problem. I also scrutinised the System Log and there are only two errors
flagged; one for untidy shutdown, one for untidy boot. There are the
usual many info entries but it seems pointless to plough through those.

BTW, the system just hangs. Screen freeze, no mouse, no keyboard; no
response to CTRL/alt/delete, nor Esc, nor Windows key.

Ed

Ed Cryer wrote:


Out of curiosity I tried the drive on my Win10 tablet. No problem, just
as with my Win7 and other Win10. I also closed the curtains before
plugging the drive in, and no sign of a spark.

All that went so well that I felt heartened to try again ... and same
problem. I also scrutinised the System Log and there are only two errors
flagged; one for untidy shutdown, one for untidy boot. There are the
usual many info entries but it seems pointless to plough through those.

BTW, the system just hangs. Screen freeze, no mouse, no keyboard; no
response to CTRL/alt/delete, nor Esc, nor Windows key.

Ed

Well, that's not what we've been discussing.

I thought the system rebooted on its own.

Instead, you're reporting a freezing problem, where *you*
hit the power button or reset it, to bring it back.

The next time the problem happens:

1) Before executing the test case, use Command Prompt and
record the IP address of the box.

ipconfig

2) Run the test case. The screen is frozen.

3) Try actuating the Shift Lock key on the keyboard.
If the keyboard LED follows the Shift state, that
means the system is alive.

If the computer has a PS/2 port, you can shut down
completely and fit a PS/2 keyboard and use the PS/2
keyboard for the Shift Key test. This is in case the
USB subsystem is cooked at the time of the freeze.
PS/2 is *very* reliable :-) PS/2 is less needed for
the mouse, but we do need a working keyboard.

4) From a second computer,

ping IP_address_from_step_1

and see if the computer responds.

If the Shift key works, you can try Control-Alt-Delete
and see if you can get to Task Manager. Chances are,
you can't, if the Desktop Environment is frozen.

While it's possible to debug a computer using Visual
Studio and an RS232 port, I've never tried it and
can't say how well it works.

Your system is frozen, but not all freezes are the
"fatal" kind. Some are freezes of the DE (file explorer)
only, and the kernel is still running. Some of the
tests above may prove the kernel still works.

I don't know why the desktop would freeze.

The video card, as far as I know, the setup is
equipped with a watchdog timer, and VPU recover
has been a feature for some number of years.
That's probably not it. The video is probably
still running. If the video reset itself, there'd
be an Event Viewer entry.

If the computer responds to a ping, you could
also try remoting (RDP) into the computer and running
the screen from a second computer. Plug in the
poison USB disk, then, using your (still-running)
remote screen, debug what's railed with
Process Explorer (Run As Administrator) and
see if you can see something amiss (railed,
SVCHOST using cycles, look for the Threads tab
and see some procedure names).

Paul

Paul wrote:
Ed Cryer wrote:


Out of curiosity I tried the drive on my Win10 tablet. No problem,
just as with my Win7 and other Win10. I also closed the curtains
before plugging the drive in, and no sign of a spark.

All that went so well that I felt heartened to try again ... and same
problem. I also scrutinised the System Log and there are only two
errors flagged; one for untidy shutdown, one for untidy boot. There
are the usual many info entries but it seems pointless to plough
through those.

BTW, the system just hangs. Screen freeze, no mouse, no keyboard; no
response to CTRL/alt/delete, nor Esc, nor Windows key.

Ed

Well, that's not what we've been discussing.

I thought the system rebooted on its own.

Instead, you're reporting a freezing problem, where *you*
hit the power button or reset it, to bring it back.

The next time the problem happens:

1) Before executing the test case, use Command Prompt and
Â*Â* record the IP address of the box.

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ipconfig

2) Run the test case. The screen is frozen.

3) Try actuating the Shift Lock key on the keyboard.
Â*Â* If the keyboard LED follows the Shift state, that
Â*Â* means the system is alive.

Â*Â* If the computer has a PS/2 port, you can shut down
Â*Â* completely and fit a PS/2 keyboard and use the PS/2
Â*Â* keyboard for the Shift Key test. This is in case the
Â*Â* USB subsystem is cooked at the time of the freeze.
Â*Â* PS/2 is *very* reliable :-) PS/2 is less needed for
Â*Â* the mouse, but we do need a working keyboard.

4) From a second computer,

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ping IP_address_from_step_1

Â*Â* and see if the computer responds.

If the Shift key works, you can try Control-Alt-Delete
and see if you can get to Task Manager. Chances are,
you can't, if the Desktop Environment is frozen.

While it's possible to debug a computer using Visual
Studio and an RS232 port, I've never tried it and
can't say how well it works.

Your system is frozen, but not all freezes are the
"fatal" kind. Some are freezes of the DE (file explorer)
only, and the kernel is still running. Some of the
tests above may prove the kernel still works.

I don't know why the desktop would freeze.

The video card, as far as I know, the setup is
equipped with a watchdog timer, and VPU recover
has been a feature for some number of years.
That's probably not it. The video is probably
still running. If the video reset itself, there'd
be an Event Viewer entry.

If the computer responds to a ping, you could
also try remoting (RDP) into the computer and running
the screen from a second computer. Plug in the
poison USB disk, then, using your (still-running)
remote screen, debug what's railed with
Process Explorer (Run As Administrator) and
see if you can see something amiss (railed,
SVCHOST using cycles, look for the Threads tab
and see some procedure names).

Â*Â* Paul

Thanks for staying with it, Paul. I do appreciate your help and advice.
I've given up on the thing. It's going in the bin. I can't feel safe
with a problem like that looming in the background. I'll probably buy a
Seagate portable 4TB to replace it.

Ed

On 26/06/2018 03:20, Paul wrote:
Brian Gregory wrote:
On 25/06/2018 23:44, Paul wrote:
Brian Gregory wrote:
On 25/06/2018 22:01, Ed Cryer wrote:
Ed Cryer wrote:
Paul wrote:
Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 12:53:03 +0100, Ed Cryer

wrote:

I have a Seagate 4TB external HD, powered, like this;
https://goo.gl/q1z7RC

It works fine with Win7. No sign of trouble.
But when I plug it into Win10 the system dies. Strangely, when
I boot with it plugged in, everything goes fine.

There's nothing relative in the Windows Log, other than info
that the system didn't shut down properly before the reboot.

Has anybody seen this? Or, any hunches as to what's causing it?

Ed

I had a similar problem with a Verbatim drive. It was fixed by a
new
driver that was applied by an automatic update. I assume Seagate
have
some driver fixes.
Steve


It should be using a regular USB Mass Storage driver.

The drive is 3.5" and has an external 12V @ 1.5A adapter.
The question would be, where does the +5V come from.

A lot of drive enclosures, convert some of the 12V to 5V to
run the logic board on the hard drive. So rather than the
wall adapter having four wires like a Molex, only +12V comes
from the adapter, and the +5V is produced on site.

(Wall +12V ------------ Adapter ---- +12V ------ Hard drive motor
Â* Wart) GND ------------ BoardÂ*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ---- +5VÂ* ------ Hard drive
logic board
(not all pins shown)
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +5VSB ------------ USB toÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX+ ------ Hard drive
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D+Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* SATAÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX- ------ data
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D-Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ConverterÂ*Â*Â* RX+ ------ connector
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* GND ------------- ChipÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* RX- ------ 7 pin (3 GND)

The USB cable by comparison, has a source of +5VSB at
up to 900mA on USB3. If the ATX power supply doesn't
have sufficient +5VSB rating, and you actually
overload +5VSB, it can cause the motherboard to shut
off. Instead of doing a restart, it would appear to
spontaneously shut off.

Maybe they made it like this, but... unlikely.

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +12V ------------ Adapter ---- +12V ------ Hard drive motor
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* GND ------------ BoardÂ*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +-------------- +5VÂ* ------ Hard drive logic
board
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* |
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +5VSB ---------+-- USBÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX+ ------ Hard drive
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D+Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* SATAÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX- ------ data
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D-Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ConverterÂ*Â* RX+ ------ connector
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* GND ------------- ChipÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* RX- ------ 7 pin (3 GND)


But even though that looks bad, it's not possible to
tell from the outside, exactly how the external storage
box was designed.

If it was a driver issue, you'd expect to see some
error info in the Reliability Monitor related to the
driver.

The drive might not be spinning when it is plugged
in during a session, but spinup current comes from
the 12V 1.5A adapter, rather than the USB bus cable.
The USB bus cable should only power the adapter
board inside the enclosure. Or in a more exotic
design, the bus power could also be used to run
the hard drive logic board.

For a driver issue, you'd expect to see a BSOD on the
screen for a short time. If you disabled automatic
restart, then the BSOD would stay on the screen longer.
If it really is a power issue (crushing of +5VSB) then
changing the automatic restart setting would not change
the symptoms.

If the computer shuts off and doesn't restart, that
sounds more like a +5VSB issue.

And while placing a USB3 powered hub between the
computer box and the external drive would sound
like fun, those aren't always designed properly
either. Sometimes there are undesired interactions
between the downstream +5V on the powered hub,
versus the +5VSB on the host side of the hub box
(the "backfeed" problem).

If an iPad was being charged off the PC, at the
same time the HDD enclosure had the USB data
cable plugged in, that would represent a pretty
heavy load on +5VSB (several amps).

Â*Â*Â* Paul

Hi Paul.

I've just tried it on another Win10 box and it works perfectly there.
I took it back to the faulting box, booted with it in, uninstalled
it, rebooted ...... problem still there.

I've not had any other USB problem with the box. I've plugged in
other HDs, memory sticks, external bluray writer. All fine.

Ed


The main difference that leaps out at me is that the 4TB drive has
a power adaptor; none of the other devices do.

Ed


My theory:
The power supply on the drive is cheap Chinese rubbish and has no
earthing and measurable mains voltage leakage and the PC shuts down
when a small spark jumps from the USB cable to the PC as you insert
the USB connector.

If the drive's power supply is earthed through to it's output then
maybe the PC isn't earthed or an earth loops is causing current flow
that crashes the PC.


I would be alarmed if I saw sparks fly between the PC USB
connector and a powered USB 3.5" drive.

The ground shell touches first, and we'd be talking about
a spark-into-ground event, with the possibility of
crosstalk between the shield and internal conductors
to upset other electronics. This tends to be worse on
*front* panel connectors. Due to the front connectors
never being earthed properly (typically set in plastic,
and only the shield on the cable provides ground). The
back connectors have obvious physical paths to chassis,
and a slightly lesser chance of induced upset.

The wall adapter has 230V on one side. The HiPot test
is supposed to verify 1100V withstanding for some
period of seconds. But the sticker or proof of test
might not be visible from the outside. ATX supplies
sometimes have a visual indication on them that
they've been HiPot tested. It's best to apply the
test after final assembly, as if anyone makes a dopey
mistake, the test might catch it.

The transformer(s) themselves could be HiPot tested,
and that's probably done on the transformer manufacturing
line. But that's not likely to be the last test.
You want a final test, to verify no creepage & clearance
problems, or solder splashes where they don't belong.
Visual inspection (even robotic) isn't enough for
safety purposes. If someone files a law suit
against you, you can show the HiPot stamp on the
unit, show the court your test station for the
procedure and so on. For whatever that's worth.

If you do see a spark, well, stop using it :-)
If the design is intended to float, it should
not throw sparks. And there's no reason for
that test case to violate the HiPot max.
If you raised the PC chassis thousands of volts
above the rest of the house, yes, you'll see
a spark on the resulting multiple HiPot failures.

Â*Â*Â* Paul

I said small spark.

I've seen this happen on an HP printer. A Deskjet 720 if I remember
correctly. Luckily I could leave it connect all the time so it
wouldn't crash the PC.

I still don't see you properly describing exactly what happens, a
crash or a power off or what.


If you short +5VSB to ground, you get a power off.

Never heard of crowbar protection?


If you inject a transient into an I/O connector,
you're likely to get a "reset" pulse or "restart".
There's no reason for the power to drop, with
some various transients. The "restart" might
be caused by a CPU crash, followed by automatic
recovery. If you set the automatic restart to disabled,
then the BSOD should stay on the screen.

The OPs symptoms sound as much like a +5VSB short
to ground, as anything a driver could do. With
a driver problem, you'd expect some breadcrumbs
in the form of a BSOD, a descriptive entry in
Event Viewer, or a dot on the Reliability Monitor
screen.

Â*Â* Paul


--

Brian Gregory (in England).

Ed Cryer wrote:
Paul wrote:
Ed Cryer wrote:


Out of curiosity I tried the drive on my Win10 tablet. No problem,
just as with my Win7 and other Win10. I also closed the curtains
before plugging the drive in, and no sign of a spark.

All that went so well that I felt heartened to try again ... and same
problem. I also scrutinised the System Log and there are only two
errors flagged; one for untidy shutdown, one for untidy boot. There
are the usual many info entries but it seems pointless to plough
through those.

BTW, the system just hangs. Screen freeze, no mouse, no keyboard; no
response to CTRL/alt/delete, nor Esc, nor Windows key.

Ed

Well, that's not what we've been discussing.

I thought the system rebooted on its own.

Instead, you're reporting a freezing problem, where *you*
hit the power button or reset it, to bring it back.

The next time the problem happens:

1) Before executing the test case, use Command Prompt and
record the IP address of the box.

ipconfig

2) Run the test case. The screen is frozen.

3) Try actuating the Shift Lock key on the keyboard.
If the keyboard LED follows the Shift state, that
means the system is alive.

If the computer has a PS/2 port, you can shut down
completely and fit a PS/2 keyboard and use the PS/2
keyboard for the Shift Key test. This is in case the
USB subsystem is cooked at the time of the freeze.
PS/2 is *very* reliable :-) PS/2 is less needed for
the mouse, but we do need a working keyboard.

4) From a second computer,

ping IP_address_from_step_1

and see if the computer responds.

If the Shift key works, you can try Control-Alt-Delete
and see if you can get to Task Manager. Chances are,
you can't, if the Desktop Environment is frozen.

While it's possible to debug a computer using Visual
Studio and an RS232 port, I've never tried it and
can't say how well it works.

Your system is frozen, but not all freezes are the
"fatal" kind. Some are freezes of the DE (file explorer)
only, and the kernel is still running. Some of the
tests above may prove the kernel still works.

I don't know why the desktop would freeze.

The video card, as far as I know, the setup is
equipped with a watchdog timer, and VPU recover
has been a feature for some number of years.
That's probably not it. The video is probably
still running. If the video reset itself, there'd
be an Event Viewer entry.

If the computer responds to a ping, you could
also try remoting (RDP) into the computer and running
the screen from a second computer. Plug in the
poison USB disk, then, using your (still-running)
remote screen, debug what's railed with
Process Explorer (Run As Administrator) and
see if you can see something amiss (railed,
SVCHOST using cycles, look for the Threads tab
and see some procedure names).

Paul

Thanks for staying with it, Paul. I do appreciate your help and advice.
I've given up on the thing. It's going in the bin. I can't feel safe
with a problem like that looming in the background. I'll probably buy a
Seagate portable 4TB to replace it.

Ed


You have the option of removing the hard drive
from the enclosure, and putting it on a SATA
port inside a desktop. Then use if for something.
Most of the value of the thing is the hard drive,
the enclosure less so.

The back of my PC has two USB3 ports, and if I
experienced trouble with one of them, I'd move
the plug to the other and repeat. The ENUM section
of the BIOS, keeps information on a per-port basis.
If the root of the problem was information stored
in the registry, it might not freeze.

As an example of another test case, you could
install a fresh 17134.1 OS on the PC in question,
then plug in the drive and see if it freezes. That
test is to see if it's something specific to the
installation (i.e. not a combo OS + hardware issue
causing it). The same drivers should load, the
same freeze appear, if it's a driver issue.

In any case, I wouldn't bin it. Erase the drive
and give it to someone, if the product bothers you.

I'd just repack the drive in another enclosure, in
my computer room. You can see I like this stuff :-)

https://s22.postimg.cc/btz0qtj01/enclosure_Type_B.gif

I removed that adapter from the enclosure, for better
air cooling of the materials.

Paul

On 26/06/2018 14:10, Ed Cryer wrote:
BTW, the system just hangs. Screen freeze, no mouse, no keyboard; no
response to CTRL/alt/delete, nor Esc, nor Windows key.

Good grief.

Wish you'd thought to say that at the beginning.

Do you have a multimeter or anything you could measure mains leakage with?

--

Brian Gregory (in England).

In article , Ed Cryer
wrote:

Out of curiosity I tried the drive on my Win10 tablet. No problem,
just as with my Win7 and other Win10. I also closed the curtains
before plugging the drive in, and no sign of a spark.

All that went so well that I felt heartened to try again ... and same
problem. I also scrutinised the System Log and there are only two
errors flagged; one for untidy shutdown, one for untidy boot. There
are the usual many info entries but it seems pointless to plough
through those.

BTW, the system just hangs. Screen freeze, no mouse, no keyboard; no
response to CTRL/alt/delete, nor Esc, nor Windows key.

....

I've given up on the thing. It's going in the bin. I can't feel safe
with a problem like that looming in the background. I'll probably buy a
Seagate portable 4TB to replace it.

you said the drive worked fine on different computers, including your
tablet, which suggests it's not the drive that's the problem, but
rather one particular computer.

also be sure the usb cable is a high quality usb-compliant cable, not
some noname crap.


In article , Ed Cryer
wrote:
I've just tried it on another Win10 box and it works perfectly there.
I took it back to the faulting box, booted with it in, uninstalled it,
rebooted ...... problem still there.

Brian Gregory wrote:
On 26/06/2018 03:20, Paul wrote:
Brian Gregory wrote:
On 25/06/2018 23:44, Paul wrote:
Brian Gregory wrote:
On 25/06/2018 22:01, Ed Cryer wrote:
Ed Cryer wrote:
Paul wrote:
Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 12:53:03 +0100, Ed Cryer

wrote:

I have a Seagate 4TB external HD, powered, like this;
https://goo.gl/q1z7RC

It works fine with Win7. No sign of trouble.
But when I plug it into Win10 the system dies. Strangely, when
I boot with it plugged in, everything goes fine.

There's nothing relative in the Windows Log, other than info
that the system didn't shut down properly before the reboot.

Has anybody seen this? Or, any hunches as to what's causing it?

Ed

I had a similar problem with a Verbatim drive. It was fixed by
a new
driver that was applied by an automatic update. I assume
Seagate have
some driver fixes.
Steve


It should be using a regular USB Mass Storage driver.

The drive is 3.5" and has an external 12V @ 1.5A adapter.
The question would be, where does the +5V come from.

A lot of drive enclosures, convert some of the 12V to 5V to
run the logic board on the hard drive. So rather than the
wall adapter having four wires like a Molex, only +12V comes
from the adapter, and the +5V is produced on site.

(Wall +12V ------------ Adapter ---- +12V ------ Hard drive motor
Wart) GND ------------ Board ---- GND ------
---- GND ------
---- +5V ------ Hard drive
logic board
(not all pins shown)
+5VSB ------------ USB to TX+ ------ Hard drive
D+ SATA TX- ------ data
D- Converter RX+ ------ connector
GND ------------- Chip RX- ------ 7 pin (3 GND)

The USB cable by comparison, has a source of +5VSB at
up to 900mA on USB3. If the ATX power supply doesn't
have sufficient +5VSB rating, and you actually
overload +5VSB, it can cause the motherboard to shut
off. Instead of doing a restart, it would appear to
spontaneously shut off.

Maybe they made it like this, but... unlikely.

+12V ------------ Adapter ---- +12V ------ Hard drive motor
GND ------------ Board ---- GND ------
---- GND ------
+-------------- +5V ------ Hard drive
logic board
|
+5VSB ---------+-- USB TX+ ------ Hard drive
D+ SATA TX- ------ data
D- Converter RX+ ------ connector
GND ------------- Chip RX- ------ 7 pin (3 GND)


But even though that looks bad, it's not possible to
tell from the outside, exactly how the external storage
box was designed.

If it was a driver issue, you'd expect to see some
error info in the Reliability Monitor related to the
driver.

The drive might not be spinning when it is plugged
in during a session, but spinup current comes from
the 12V 1.5A adapter, rather than the USB bus cable.
The USB bus cable should only power the adapter
board inside the enclosure. Or in a more exotic
design, the bus power could also be used to run
the hard drive logic board.

For a driver issue, you'd expect to see a BSOD on the
screen for a short time. If you disabled automatic
restart, then the BSOD would stay on the screen longer.
If it really is a power issue (crushing of +5VSB) then
changing the automatic restart setting would not change
the symptoms.

If the computer shuts off and doesn't restart, that
sounds more like a +5VSB issue.

And while placing a USB3 powered hub between the
computer box and the external drive would sound
like fun, those aren't always designed properly
either. Sometimes there are undesired interactions
between the downstream +5V on the powered hub,
versus the +5VSB on the host side of the hub box
(the "backfeed" problem).

If an iPad was being charged off the PC, at the
same time the HDD enclosure had the USB data
cable plugged in, that would represent a pretty
heavy load on +5VSB (several amps).

Paul

Hi Paul.

I've just tried it on another Win10 box and it works perfectly
there.
I took it back to the faulting box, booted with it in,
uninstalled it, rebooted ...... problem still there.

I've not had any other USB problem with the box. I've plugged in
other HDs, memory sticks, external bluray writer. All fine.

Ed


The main difference that leaps out at me is that the 4TB drive has
a power adaptor; none of the other devices do.

Ed


My theory:
The power supply on the drive is cheap Chinese rubbish and has no
earthing and measurable mains voltage leakage and the PC shuts down
when a small spark jumps from the USB cable to the PC as you insert
the USB connector.

If the drive's power supply is earthed through to it's output then
maybe the PC isn't earthed or an earth loops is causing current
flow that crashes the PC.


I would be alarmed if I saw sparks fly between the PC USB
connector and a powered USB 3.5" drive.

The ground shell touches first, and we'd be talking about
a spark-into-ground event, with the possibility of
crosstalk between the shield and internal conductors
to upset other electronics. This tends to be worse on
*front* panel connectors. Due to the front connectors
never being earthed properly (typically set in plastic,
and only the shield on the cable provides ground). The
back connectors have obvious physical paths to chassis,
and a slightly lesser chance of induced upset.

The wall adapter has 230V on one side. The HiPot test
is supposed to verify 1100V withstanding for some
period of seconds. But the sticker or proof of test
might not be visible from the outside. ATX supplies
sometimes have a visual indication on them that
they've been HiPot tested. It's best to apply the
test after final assembly, as if anyone makes a dopey
mistake, the test might catch it.

The transformer(s) themselves could be HiPot tested,
and that's probably done on the transformer manufacturing
line. But that's not likely to be the last test.
You want a final test, to verify no creepage & clearance
problems, or solder splashes where they don't belong.
Visual inspection (even robotic) isn't enough for
safety purposes. If someone files a law suit
against you, you can show the HiPot stamp on the
unit, show the court your test station for the
procedure and so on. For whatever that's worth.

If you do see a spark, well, stop using it :-)
If the design is intended to float, it should
not throw sparks. And there's no reason for
that test case to violate the HiPot max.
If you raised the PC chassis thousands of volts
above the rest of the house, yes, you'll see
a spark on the resulting multiple HiPot failures.

Paul

I said small spark.

I've seen this happen on an HP printer. A Deskjet 720 if I remember
correctly. Luckily I could leave it connect all the time so it
wouldn't crash the PC.

I still don't see you properly describing exactly what happens, a
crash or a power off or what.


If you short +5VSB to ground, you get a power off.

Never heard of crowbar protection?

I have.

I designed it into a power supply at home, at
the age of 18.

I don't think that's what you mean though.

You probably want OCP (Over Current Protection), which
can be implemented thermally (regulator overheats at
a certain current flow level and removes output).

There is also foldback current protection, where
the device reduces current flow, protecting both
the load and the supply.

There is also "put-put" mode, which early PCs
used, leading to more successful boots, even
if a PC "wasn't feeling well". That mode is suited
to the older computers running 30-35W loads or
so for the processor.

There are several approaches to overload.

*******

Crowbar is for OVP. OverVoltage Protection.
What it seeks to do, is clamp the output to
zero volts, causing the OCP to cut in.

Crowbar was intended for cases where the failure
modes of the power supply, made it really easy
for the supply to be in a permanent "high voltage
output" state. For example, a series pass linear
which is jammed in an "ON" state, would leave the
DC output permanently too high. In some cases,
a supply with a fast-blow fuse located elsewhere
in the circuit, application of the crowbar would
blow the fuse.

Modern SMPS attempt to remove switching drive
from the primary side, on a fault. So there's no
need to crowbar them. As soon as the switching
action stops on the primary (even if one transistor
is permanently jammed on), it takes alternation
to pass an AC signal through the isolation
transformer to the secondary.

DC to DC converters (like the secondary power
board in 80+ supplies), have different fault
modes than the main 12V section, and may require
a different approach. (They could be buck regulators
for example, as they don't need isolation as a feature.)
While some of the chips used may remove primary drive
to the buck transistor (causing MOSFET to go to OFF state),
that's not sufficient to handle all fault scenarios.

It would be an unusual design today that uses
a crowbar. There are plenty of options in modern
supplies. For example, if the secondary board
in an 80+ fails, you can kill the switching
action on the primary side of the main transformer,
or you can disable the PFC front end (the part
that power-factor-corrects the AC load caused
by the ATX supply). The advantage of killing
the switching action, is protection is closer
to instantaneous. Killing at the PFC requires
16mS to a second or so before the output stops.

Paul

Ed Cryer wrote:


Thanks for staying with it, Paul. I do appreciate your help and advice.
I've given up on the thing. It's going in the bin. I can't feel safe
with a problem like that looming in the background. I'll probably buy a
Seagate portable 4TB to replace it.

Ed

When it freezes, does updating on the screen freeze ?

Like if Task Manager was running before plugging in the
drive to the affected Windows 10, does the Task Manager
display continue to update ?

One person plugged in a USB3 drive, that happened to
be next to their nano receiver for wireless mouse/keyboard,
and their "freeze" was just a loss of mouse/keyboard
input caused by the USB3 RF interference. They couldn't
move the mouse cursor, but otherwise the system
was functional.

Paul

Paul wrote:
Ed Cryer wrote:
Paul wrote:
Ed Cryer wrote:


Out of curiosity I tried the drive on my Win10 tablet. No problem,
just as with my Win7 and other Win10. I also closed the curtains
before plugging the drive in, and no sign of a spark.

All that went so well that I felt heartened to try again ... and
same problem. I also scrutinised the System Log and there are only
two errors flagged; one for untidy shutdown, one for untidy boot.
There are the usual many info entries but it seems pointless to
plough through those.

BTW, the system just hangs. Screen freeze, no mouse, no keyboard; no
response to CTRL/alt/delete, nor Esc, nor Windows key.

Ed

Well, that's not what we've been discussing.

I thought the system rebooted on its own.

Instead, you're reporting a freezing problem, where *you*
hit the power button or reset it, to bring it back.

The next time the problem happens:

1) Before executing the test case, use Command Prompt and
Â*Â*Â* record the IP address of the box.

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ipconfig

2) Run the test case. The screen is frozen.

3) Try actuating the Shift Lock key on the keyboard.
Â*Â*Â* If the keyboard LED follows the Shift state, that
Â*Â*Â* means the system is alive.

Â*Â*Â* If the computer has a PS/2 port, you can shut down
Â*Â*Â* completely and fit a PS/2 keyboard and use the PS/2
Â*Â*Â* keyboard for the Shift Key test. This is in case the
Â*Â*Â* USB subsystem is cooked at the time of the freeze.
Â*Â*Â* PS/2 is *very* reliable :-) PS/2 is less needed for
Â*Â*Â* the mouse, but we do need a working keyboard.

4) From a second computer,

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ping IP_address_from_step_1

Â*Â*Â* and see if the computer responds.

If the Shift key works, you can try Control-Alt-Delete
and see if you can get to Task Manager. Chances are,
you can't, if the Desktop Environment is frozen.

While it's possible to debug a computer using Visual
Studio and an RS232 port, I've never tried it and
can't say how well it works.

Your system is frozen, but not all freezes are the
"fatal" kind. Some are freezes of the DE (file explorer)
only, and the kernel is still running. Some of the
tests above may prove the kernel still works.

I don't know why the desktop would freeze.

The video card, as far as I know, the setup is
equipped with a watchdog timer, and VPU recover
has been a feature for some number of years.
That's probably not it. The video is probably
still running. If the video reset itself, there'd
be an Event Viewer entry.

If the computer responds to a ping, you could
also try remoting (RDP) into the computer and running
the screen from a second computer. Plug in the
poison USB disk, then, using your (still-running)
remote screen, debug what's railed with
Process Explorer (Run As Administrator) and
see if you can see something amiss (railed,
SVCHOST using cycles, look for the Threads tab
and see some procedure names).

Â*Â*Â* Paul

Thanks for staying with it, Paul. I do appreciate your help and advice.
I've given up on the thing. It's going in the bin. I can't feel safe
with a problem like that looming in the background. I'll probably buy
a Seagate portable 4TB to replace it.

Ed


You have the option of removing the hard drive
from the enclosure, and putting it on a SATA
port inside a desktop. Then use if for something.
Most of the value of the thing is the hard drive,
the enclosure less so.

The back of my PC has two USB3 ports, and if I
experienced trouble with one of them, I'd move
the plug to the other and repeat. The ENUM section
of the BIOS, keeps information on a per-port basis.
If the root of the problem was information stored
in the registry, it might not freeze.

As an example of another test case, you could
install a fresh 17134.1 OS on the PC in question,
then plug in the drive and see if it freezes. That
test is to see if it's something specific to the
installation (i.e. not a combo OS + hardware issue
causing it). The same drivers should load, the
same freeze appear, if it's a driver issue.

In any case, I wouldn't bin it. Erase the drive
and give it to someone, if the product bothers you.

I'd just repack the drive in another enclosure, in
my computer room. You can see I like this stuff :-)

https://s22.postimg.cc/btz0qtj01/enclosure_Type_B.gif

I removed that adapter from the enclosure, for better
air cooling of the materials.

Â*Â* Paul

The replacement is ordered and I'll pick it up tomorrow. 4TB portable
Seagate.
I have better things to do than play around with faulting drives. It
came from Maplins just before they went into liquidation a few months ago.
The small amount of data on it seems ok. When I've copied that (oh, and
by the way, run the new one through Seatools for Windows), away goes the
old one.
I think a drill twice right through it should render it bin-dumpable.

Ed

"Ed Cryer" wrote in message
news
Your system is frozen, but not all freezes are the
"fatal" kind. Some are freezes of the DE (file explorer)
only, and the kernel is still running. Some of the
tests above may prove the kernel still works.

I had this situation earlier this afternoon when I rebooted my Win 7 PC. I
have a weather station. The monitoring software on the PC, started with
HKLM/Windows/System/Current Version/Run, polls the station and uploads data
to a web site every minute.

This reboot was like all others: the weather software started and then later
it got round to starting Skype and Dropbox. A normal textbook reboot. But
suddenly everything froze, including mouse pointer which in my experience is
one of the last things to freeze. Disk light permanently on. I was starting
to worry: would I have to press the power switch? was this going to *keep*
happening? I checked the weather data web site on my phone, and lo and
behold: it was still being updated even though the UI was locked. And then
suddenly everything unlocked and the PC became fully responsive again. I
think it was as Dropbox was starting, but I've never seen that totally lock
the UI, *including the mouse pointer*.

Goodness know what happened. There was nothing unexpected to see in the
Event Log.

NY wrote:
"Ed Cryer" wrote in message
news
Your system is frozen, but not all freezes are the
"fatal" kind. Some are freezes of the DE (file explorer)
only, and the kernel is still running. Some of the
tests above may prove the kernel still works.

I had this situation earlier this afternoon when I rebooted my Win 7 PC.
I have a weather station. The monitoring software on the PC, started
with HKLM/Windows/System/Current Version/Run, polls the station and
uploads data to a web site every minute.

This reboot was like all others: the weather software started and then
later it got round to starting Skype and Dropbox. A normal textbook
reboot. But suddenly everything froze, including mouse pointer which in
my experience is one of the last things to freeze. Disk light
permanently on. I was starting to worry: would I have to press the power
switch? was this going to *keep* happening? I checked the weather data
web site on my phone, and lo and behold: it was still being updated even
though the UI was locked. And then suddenly everything unlocked and the
PC became fully responsive again. I think it was as Dropbox was
starting, but I've never seen that totally lock the UI, *including the
mouse pointer*.

Goodness know what happened. There was nothing unexpected to see in the
Event Log.

The desktop is made of HTML/JS and shares some common resources.
One program can torpedo responsiveness of the desktop
view for the other applications.

I learned this, when using MSEdge to read a PDF, and a kind
of memory garbage collector started denying resources
to other things. You could click on an application icon
on the desktop and it wouldn't register. The behavior
lasted for 20 seconds per occurrence.

Paul

On 27/06/2018 14:05, Ed Cryer wrote:
Paul wrote:
Ed Cryer wrote:
Paul wrote:
Ed Cryer wrote:


Out of curiosity I tried the drive on my Win10 tablet. No problem,
just as with my Win7 and other Win10. I also closed the curtains
before plugging the drive in, and no sign of a spark.

All that went so well that I felt heartened to try again ... and
same problem. I also scrutinised the System Log and there are only
two errors flagged; one for untidy shutdown, one for untidy boot.
There are the usual many info entries but it seems pointless to
plough through those.

BTW, the system just hangs. Screen freeze, no mouse, no keyboard;
no response to CTRL/alt/delete, nor Esc, nor Windows key.

Ed

Well, that's not what we've been discussing.

I thought the system rebooted on its own.

Instead, you're reporting a freezing problem, where *you*
hit the power button or reset it, to bring it back.

The next time the problem happens:

1) Before executing the test case, use Command Prompt and
Â*Â*Â* record the IP address of the box.

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ipconfig

2) Run the test case. The screen is frozen.

3) Try actuating the Shift Lock key on the keyboard.
Â*Â*Â* If the keyboard LED follows the Shift state, that
Â*Â*Â* means the system is alive.

Â*Â*Â* If the computer has a PS/2 port, you can shut down
Â*Â*Â* completely and fit a PS/2 keyboard and use the PS/2
Â*Â*Â* keyboard for the Shift Key test. This is in case the
Â*Â*Â* USB subsystem is cooked at the time of the freeze.
Â*Â*Â* PS/2 is *very* reliable :-) PS/2 is less needed for
Â*Â*Â* the mouse, but we do need a working keyboard.

4) From a second computer,

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ping IP_address_from_step_1

Â*Â*Â* and see if the computer responds.

If the Shift key works, you can try Control-Alt-Delete
and see if you can get to Task Manager. Chances are,
you can't, if the Desktop Environment is frozen.

While it's possible to debug a computer using Visual
Studio and an RS232 port, I've never tried it and
can't say how well it works.

Your system is frozen, but not all freezes are the
"fatal" kind. Some are freezes of the DE (file explorer)
only, and the kernel is still running. Some of the
tests above may prove the kernel still works.

I don't know why the desktop would freeze.

The video card, as far as I know, the setup is
equipped with a watchdog timer, and VPU recover
has been a feature for some number of years.
That's probably not it. The video is probably
still running. If the video reset itself, there'd
be an Event Viewer entry.

If the computer responds to a ping, you could
also try remoting (RDP) into the computer and running
the screen from a second computer. Plug in the
poison USB disk, then, using your (still-running)
remote screen, debug what's railed with
Process Explorer (Run As Administrator) and
see if you can see something amiss (railed,
SVCHOST using cycles, look for the Threads tab
and see some procedure names).

Â*Â*Â* Paul

Thanks for staying with it, Paul. I do appreciate your help and advice.
I've given up on the thing. It's going in the bin. I can't feel safe
with a problem like that looming in the background. I'll probably buy
a Seagate portable 4TB to replace it.

Ed


You have the option of removing the hard drive
from the enclosure, and putting it on a SATA
port inside a desktop. Then use if for something.
Most of the value of the thing is the hard drive,
the enclosure less so.

The back of my PC has two USB3 ports, and if I
experienced trouble with one of them, I'd move
the plug to the other and repeat. The ENUM section
of the BIOS, keeps information on a per-port basis.
If the root of the problem was information stored
in the registry, it might not freeze.

As an example of another test case, you could
install a fresh 17134.1 OS on the PC in question,
then plug in the drive and see if it freezes. That
test is to see if it's something specific to the
installation (i.e. not a combo OS + hardware issue
causing it). The same drivers should load, the
same freeze appear, if it's a driver issue.

In any case, I wouldn't bin it. Erase the drive
and give it to someone, if the product bothers you.

I'd just repack the drive in another enclosure, in
my computer room. You can see I like this stuff :-)

https://s22.postimg.cc/btz0qtj01/enclosure_Type_B.gif

I removed that adapter from the enclosure, for better
air cooling of the materials.

Â*Â*Â* Paul

The replacement is ordered and I'll pick it up tomorrow. 4TB portable
Seagate.
I have better things to do than play around with faulting drives. It
came from Maplins just before they went into liquidation a few months ago.
The small amount of data on it seems ok. When I've copied that (oh, and
by the way, run the new one through Seatools for Windows), away goes the
old one.
I think a drill twice right through it should render it bin-dumpable.

Ed

But everything points to the computer being faulty or oversensitive to
pulse interference fed in to it's ports.

--

Brian Gregory (in England).

On 26/06/2018 23:12, Brian Gregory wrote:
On 26/06/2018 14:10, Ed Cryer wrote:
BTW, the system just hangs. Screen freeze, no mouse, no keyboard; no
response to CTRL/alt/delete, nor Esc, nor Windows key.

Good grief.

Wish you'd thought to say that at the beginning.

Do you have a multimeter or anything you could measure mains leakage with?


HELLO Ed are you there????

--

Brian Gregory (in England).