Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flaw forcesLinux, Windows redesign

In article , Scott Dorsey
wrote:

Are they heated through the use of a block heater or is there some
other solution I'm not aware of?

the batteries are heated and shortly before leaving, you can preheat
the cabin via a smartphone app.

What he is asking is whether the batteries are heated using their own power
(which would be limited) or external power (like the block heater used to
keep gasoline engines warm using the AC mains current).

either.

heating from the batteries will slightly reduce the range, but since
nearly all trips are well under the maximum, it won't even be noticed.

however, it would likely be plugged in overnight anyway, so it's a
non-issue.

based on that, you shouldn't trust a *gas* powered vehicle in such
temperatures.

many gas powered vehicles have engine block heaters because they won't
start in extreme weather.

This is all true, but modern oil technology combined with fuel injection
systems have made matters a whole hell of a lot better than they were back
in the eighties. But when you think the gasoline engine had been around
for ninety years before anyone managed to make one start consistently in
Alaska, you have to realize how quickly the electric technology is moving
in comparison.

yep.

electric cars are relatively new, as is the infrastructure to support
them. that's quickly changing.

50 years ago, there weren't gas stations on every corner or every rest
stop.

On 2018-01-06 19:23, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Johnny Billquist
wrote:

And then they figured out a clever way of mining the contents of the
cache.

One could argue that the cache should be invalidated in such a
scenario, but that is not happening either.

Never mind invalidating it. WTF is going on if a non-priv process has
the right to do anything at all to the cache? Non-priv processes
shouldn't even be aware that there *is* a cache, never mind having the
right to execute instructions *about* the cache.

Normally, that is true. But clever people can do a lot around this.
When I was doing my CS major, we had a course on advanced computer
architectures, in where we learned how to write a very simple program
that told us everything about cache size, associativeness, line size,
TLB size, TLB associativeness, and so on...
All you need to do is understand how the computer is affected by these
things, and then write programs that detect the effects.

In short, you write small loops that exercise the cache in different
ways, and time the whole thing. You don't even need any high precision
timers for it. All user level, and all very simple.

Caches are not "visible" to normal operation, but caches affects the
timing a *lot*. Which is obvious, since that is why the cache is there
in the first place.

I assume you are not arguing that the cache should be disabled for user
processes.

Any instruction that refers to memory is executing instructions that is
about the cache.

Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

On 01/06/2018 03:57 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Doomsdrzej wrote:
The biggest problem in even considering a Tesla is that I live in a
very cold climate which, since mid-December, has seen its temperature
go no lower than -25c. In such a climate, the already poor range of an
electric car is even worse and there are good reasons to believe that
it wouldn't even start. There's also the fact that the computers
within it, something which is essentially problematic for all cars,
tend to go crazy when the temperatures are too low so the car might
effectively become useless.

Hell, I remember when gasoline engines were effectively useless at -25C....
they got a lot better.... they keep getting better.... so will the electric.
--scott


Within the limits of the laws of physics.

bill

On 01/06/2018 03:07 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , Doomsdrzej
wrote:

The biggest problem in even considering a Tesla is that I live in a
very cold climate which, since mid-December, has seen its temperature
go no lower than -25c. In such a climate, the already poor range of an
electric car is even worse and there are good reasons to believe that
it wouldn't even start.

the batteries are heated in cold weather and the cars start just fine.

Are they heated through the use of a block heater or is there some
other solution I'm not aware of?

the batteries are heated and shortly before leaving, you can preheat
the cabin via a smartphone app.

And that heating shortens your range. Or did you think it was
somehow free?


There's also the fact that the computers
within it, something which is essentially problematic for all cars,
tend to go crazy when the temperatures are too low so the car might
effectively become useless.

nonsense.

Do you live in a climate where -28c temperatures are normal? My
Infiniti started perfectly the other day at such a temperature but the
continued exposure to the freezing temperatures caused the computer to
go nuts and essentially all of the lights within the dashboard lit up
and the system disabled everything from the power steering to the 4WD.
Once things warmed up a few days later, all of the lights as well as
the annoying check engine light turned off. To say the least, I
wouldn't trust an electric car in such temperatures.

based on that, you shouldn't trust a *gas* powered vehicle in such
temperatures.

Why? Temps here have been below zero for a week with wind chills
in the -20 to -30 range. My truck starts just fine. Funny, my
wife asked about "dry gas" at the gas station and they didn't even
know what she was talking about. I had to explain to her why we
really don't need it anymore. Now, diesels still have serious
problems in the winter cold but that is mostly big truck diesels.
I had a Volvo diesel a long time ago and worked fine in Potsdam, NY
in January.


many gas powered vehicles have engine block heaters because they won't
start in extreme weather.

I know people with diesels in their pickup trucks who have them, but I
have never seen a need for one in a gasoline car. Of course, I doubt
my 1979 MGB would start after sitting out there in the cold for 2 months
without running, but technology has changed. I'll probably find out.
The winds blew the covers off the car and I thought I might try starting
it before I cover it up again for the rest of the winter.

bill

On 01/06/2018 03:54 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , Doomsdrzej
wrote:

The biggest problem in even considering a Tesla is that I live in a
very cold climate which, since mid-December, has seen its temperature
go no lower than -25c. In such a climate, the already poor range of an
electric car is even worse and there are good reasons to believe that
it wouldn't even start.

the batteries are heated in cold weather and the cars start just fine.

Are they heated through the use of a block heater or is there some
other solution I'm not aware of?

the batteries are heated and shortly before leaving, you can preheat
the cabin via a smartphone app.

_How_ are they heated?

via a heater module on the batteries.

Pre-heating the cabin essentially means that you've turned on the car
remotely. However, this is only possible if the car starts which, of
course, often requires the batteries to be heated.

for a gas powered vehicle, the engine must be running.

not true for an electric vehicle.


True, it just uses some of that electricity that you need to get from
one place to another. So much for driving range. I haven't looked
lately as I am not in the market for any kind of electric vehicle
but the last time I looked the all electrics I saw didn't even have
enough driving range for my daily commute.

bill

In article , Bill Gunshannon
wrote:

The biggest problem in even considering a Tesla is that I live in a
very cold climate which, since mid-December, has seen its temperature
go no lower than -25c. In such a climate, the already poor range of an
electric car is even worse and there are good reasons to believe that
it wouldn't even start.

the batteries are heated in cold weather and the cars start just fine.

Are they heated through the use of a block heater or is there some
other solution I'm not aware of?

the batteries are heated and shortly before leaving, you can preheat
the cabin via a smartphone app.

And that heating shortens your range. Or did you think it was
somehow free?

it's effectively free. the impact is a few miles less range, out of
200-300 miles total. most trips are well under that, so it's not even
remotely a concern.


Do you live in a climate where -28c temperatures are normal? My
Infiniti started perfectly the other day at such a temperature but the
continued exposure to the freezing temperatures caused the computer to
go nuts and essentially all of the lights within the dashboard lit up
and the system disabled everything from the power steering to the 4WD.
Once things warmed up a few days later, all of the lights as well as
the annoying check engine light turned off. To say the least, I
wouldn't trust an electric car in such temperatures.

based on that, you shouldn't trust a *gas* powered vehicle in such
temperatures.

Why? Temps here have been below zero for a week with wind chills
in the -20 to -30 range. My truck starts just fine. Funny, my
wife asked about "dry gas" at the gas station and they didn't even
know what she was talking about. I had to explain to her why we
really don't need it anymore. Now, diesels still have serious
problems in the winter cold but that is mostly big truck diesels.
I had a Volvo diesel a long time ago and worked fine in Potsdam, NY
in January.


read what he wrote:
...but the
continued exposure to the freezing temperatures caused the computer to
go nuts and essentially all of the lights within the dashboard lit up
and the system disabled everything from the power steering to the 4WD.

In article , Bill Gunshannon
wrote:

Pre-heating the cabin essentially means that you've turned on the car
remotely. However, this is only possible if the car starts which, of
course, often requires the batteries to be heated.

for a gas powered vehicle, the engine must be running.

not true for an electric vehicle.


True, it just uses some of that electricity that you need to get from
one place to another. So much for driving range. I haven't looked
lately as I am not in the market for any kind of electric vehicle
but the last time I looked the all electrics I saw didn't even have
enough driving range for my daily commute.

how far is your daily commute?

you'd need to be driving on the order of 100 miles *each* way for it to
be an issue.

On 01/06/2018 05:27 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , Bill Gunshannon
wrote:

The biggest problem in even considering a Tesla is that I live in a
very cold climate which, since mid-December, has seen its temperature
go no lower than -25c. In such a climate, the already poor range of an
electric car is even worse and there are good reasons to believe that
it wouldn't even start.

the batteries are heated in cold weather and the cars start just fine.

Are they heated through the use of a block heater or is there some
other solution I'm not aware of?

the batteries are heated and shortly before leaving, you can preheat
the cabin via a smartphone app.

And that heating shortens your range. Or did you think it was
somehow free?

it's effectively free. the impact is a few miles less range, out of
200-300 miles total. most trips are well under that, so it's not even
remotely a concern.

Say what?

Honda FitEV - 82 miles
KIA SoulEV - 93 miles
Mercedes Benz B-Class Electric Drive - 124 miles
Mitsubishi I-MiEV - 106 miles
Nissan Leaf - 75 miles
Smart electric Drive - 90 miles
Volkswagen e-Up - 99 miles
Chevy Spark EV - 82 miles
BMW i3 - 114 miles

Not everybody can afford a Tesla.

Before I retired my daily commute was between 60 and 70 miles. Very
close for some of these cars without using some of that electricity
for heat. One detour because of an accident on the highway and I am
screwed. And what do you think it will cost to have it flatbeded to
my house? Not to mention the wasted time, inconvenience and danger of
being stranded on the side of the road. especially in -20 temps.

Electric cars are about as ready for reality as autonomous cars.

bill

On 1/6/2018 5:32 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Scott Dorsey
wrote:

Tim Streater* wrote:
In article , nospam
range is only a problem for long road trips, and in those cases, rent a
vehicle. eventually, that won't be a problem, as more charging stations
are built.

I think some of you guys need to calculate the power rate needed to
charge the higher range cars in any sort of reasonable time. You'll
find it quite high. Then you have the problem of supplying that power
at a safe voltage, and without such a high current needed that even Mr
Muscles can't lift the charging cable, never mind plug it in.

It's not that bad, one or two cars at a time.* These days it's not
unusual
at all for houses to have 200A service and putting a 100A 240V outlet in
the garage for a charger does not require a major retrofit.

Garage ha ha ha. That'll work a treat on those streets of terraced
houses, eh?

A 50kWh battery is going to need 100A at 1kV to charge up in 30 mins.
You going to give the punter a cable at 1kV to shove in their car?

My neighbor is a mechanic for a dealership. They send him to classes
for the latest updates and such. He's told some stories about the warnings
related to servicing electric cars. Most of the stories start with something
to the effect of "..if you touch THIS you're dead.."
Seems there's the potential for a lot of dead shade-tree mechanics, to say
nothing of the risks to EMTs responding to crashes.
[Just sayin' ]
--
==
Later...
Ron C
--

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

On 01/06/2018 05:27 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , Bill Gunshannon
wrote:

Pre-heating the cabin essentially means that you've turned on the car
remotely. However, this is only possible if the car starts which, of
course, often requires the batteries to be heated.

for a gas powered vehicle, the engine must be running.

not true for an electric vehicle.


True, it just uses some of that electricity that you need to get from
one place to another. So much for driving range. I haven't looked
lately as I am not in the market for any kind of electric vehicle
but the last time I looked the all electrics I saw didn't even have
enough driving range for my daily commute.

how far is your daily commute?

you'd need to be driving on the order of 100 miles *each* way for it to
be an issue.


See my last post. My commute was 60-70 miles and the
majority of cars that normal working class people can
actually afford barely make that.

bill

On 1/6/2018 5:48 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
On 01/06/2018 05:27 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , Bill Gunshannon
wrote:

Pre-heating the cabin essentially means that you've turned on the car
remotely. However, this is only possible if the car starts which, of
course, often requires the batteries to be heated.

for a gas powered vehicle, the engine must be running.

not true for an electric vehicle.


True, it just uses some of that electricity that you need to get from
one place to another.* So much for driving range.* I haven't looked
lately as I am not in the market for any kind of electric vehicle
but the last time I looked the all electrics I saw didn't even have
enough driving range for my daily commute.

how far is your daily commute?

you'd need to be driving on the order of 100 miles *each* way for it to
be an issue.


See my last post.* My commute was 60-70 miles and the
majority of cars that normal working class people can
actually afford barely make that.

bill

For what little it's worth, I had a 95 mile *each* way commute
for a while. It may be somewhat unusual, but it's not unheard of.
--
==
Later...
Ron C
--

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

Tim Streater wrote:

Does that involve instructions that operate on the cache. Such as
"clear cache"?

Yes, for the example I saw

https://gist.github.com/ErikAugust/724d4a969fb2c6ae1bbd7b2a9e3d4bb6/revisions

but I think it was only using spectre techniques to read from a chunk of
memory within the same process, to demonstrate how the timing works.

The x86-64 reference manual

https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/manuals/64-ia-32-architectures-software-developer-instruction-set-reference-manual-325383.pdf

states

"The CLFLUSH instruction can be used at all privilege levels and is
subject to all permission checking and faults associated with a byte load"

so perhaps the example is too simplistic and a real attack wouldn't be
able to flush the target area of memory from the cache lines, unless it
already had permission to access that memory?

In article , Bill Gunshannon
wrote:

The biggest problem in even considering a Tesla is that I live in a
very cold climate which, since mid-December, has seen its temperature
go no lower than -25c. In such a climate, the already poor range of an
electric car is even worse and there are good reasons to believe that
it wouldn't even start.

the batteries are heated in cold weather and the cars start just fine.

Are they heated through the use of a block heater or is there some
other solution I'm not aware of?

the batteries are heated and shortly before leaving, you can preheat
the cabin via a smartphone app.

And that heating shortens your range. Or did you think it was
somehow free?

it's effectively free. the impact is a few miles less range, out of
200-300 miles total. most trips are well under that, so it's not even
remotely a concern.

Say what?

Honda FitEV - 82 miles
KIA SoulEV - 93 miles
Mercedes Benz B-Class Electric Drive - 124 miles
Mitsubishi I-MiEV - 106 miles
Nissan Leaf - 75 miles
Smart electric Drive - 90 miles
Volkswagen e-Up - 99 miles
Chevy Spark EV - 82 miles
BMW i3 - 114 miles

http://fortune.com/2017/01/22/tesla-long-range-electric-car/
Without much fanfare, Tesla has added a new battery option to its
menu. The Model S 100D, currently listed at a base price of $92,500,
offers an EPA-rated range of 335 miles on a full charge, making it,
according to Autoblog, the longest-range consumer electric vehicle in
the world

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/b...odel-3-vs-chev
rolet-bolt-ev/
The Tesla Model 3's base battery confers a 220-mile range, which is a
bit less than the Bolt EV's 238-mile range. The base Model 3 packs
better performance, though, hitting 60 mph in 5.6 seconds (versus
6.5-ish) and reaching a top speed of 130 mph (versus a paltry 93 mph).

Add the bigger battery, and the Tesla's numbers get better. Range
bumps up to 310 miles, the 0 to 60 time drops to 5.1 seconds and the
top speed extends to 140 mph. *

Not everybody can afford a Tesla.

the tesla model 3 starts at $35k, comparable to many other vehicles.

there are also assorted credits for buying an electric vehicle, further
reducing the actual price.

Before I retired my daily commute was between 60 and 70 miles.

then it's not a problem at all.

Very
close for some of these cars without using some of that electricity
for heat. One detour because of an accident on the highway and I am
screwed.

not even remotely close.

And what do you think it will cost to have it flatbeded to
my house? Not to mention the wasted time, inconvenience and danger of
being stranded on the side of the road. especially in -20 temps.

about the same as flatbedding any other car.

it's a completely fabricated scenario.

Electric cars are about as ready for reality as autonomous cars.

autonomous vehicles are already on the road.

In article , Ron C
wrote:

My neighbor is a mechanic for a dealership. They send him to classes
for the latest updates and such. He's told some stories about the warnings
related to servicing electric cars. Most of the stories start with something
to the effect of "..if you touch THIS you're dead.."
Seems there's the potential for a lot of dead shade-tree mechanics, to say
nothing of the risks to EMTs responding to crashes.

if you touch the wrong thing in a gas vehicle you could be dead too.

In article , Bill Gunshannon
wrote:

I haven't looked
lately as I am not in the market for any kind of electric vehicle
but the last time I looked the all electrics I saw didn't even have
enough driving range for my daily commute.

how far is your daily commute?

you'd need to be driving on the order of 100 miles *each* way for it to
be an issue.


See my last post. My commute was 60-70 miles and the
majority of cars that normal working class people can
actually afford barely make that.

see my reply to that post.

while there are electric vehicles with very short range (for those who
don't drive very far), there are also models with greater range.

don't dismiss electric because you chose the wrong car.