Password hints and settings

On 12/11/2019 15:15, Ken Springer wrote:
This is just curiosity on my part...

For those of you who work in the industry as a job/profession, how do
you handle making the settings and answering password hint questions?

Some examples of what I'm referring to:

1.Â* When you install W10, you're asked 7 or 8 questions, like Inking on
or off, location on or off, diagnostic sending on on or off, etc. Do you
talk to your customer about those settings before you do the install?
Explaining what they do and mean?Â* These are the things I don't think
the usual users knows anything about, yet we'll comment about the
ignorance of the user.Â* If we don't talk to the user about these
situations, aren't we just perpetuating that ignorance?

2.Â* Similarly, the answers to security questions you have to know to
recover passwords.Â* I just did an install for a friend, and I just used
random answers, and gave her the answers printed on paper.Â* Upset, is an
accurate reaction.Â* "I'll never remember those!"Â* LOLÂ* I changed them.
:-)Â* A worse case scenario are those situations where you have to
provide both question and answer.

3.Â* What do you do for situations where the settings created by the
install seemingly make no sense?Â* For example, I've had the odd occasion
where System Restore was turned on, but no space was created for the
restore points.

Much of my employment history is general aviation, mechanic.Â* Pilots
have checklists to use.Â* Mechanics have checklists for inspections to
use.Â* OT, I found most of the manufacturer's checklists for inspections
to be useless, so I made my own.

Prior to W10, I had similar checklists for W7 and before, so my work
would be consistent.Â* I keep telling myself to make one for W10, but I
never get it done. LOLÂ* And while writing this, I've got 3 laptops here
I didn't remember check the System Restore situation.

Maybe, just maybe, I should get off my butt and make the checklist!Â* LOL

Use a password manager. That way you can put nonsensical/random answers
and have no need to remember them. As the manager can be shared between
devices the answers will always be to hand.

Tell your friends, family, colleagues and clients to do the same.

On 11/14/19 2:33 AM, Chris wrote:
On 12/11/2019 15:15, Ken Springer wrote:
This is just curiosity on my part...

For those of you who work in the industry as a job/profession, how do
you handle making the settings and answering password hint questions?

Some examples of what I'm referring to:

1.Â* When you install W10, you're asked 7 or 8 questions, like Inking on
or off, location on or off, diagnostic sending on on or off, etc. Do you
talk to your customer about those settings before you do the install?
Explaining what they do and mean?Â* These are the things I don't think
the usual users knows anything about, yet we'll comment about the
ignorance of the user.Â* If we don't talk to the user about these
situations, aren't we just perpetuating that ignorance?

2.Â* Similarly, the answers to security questions you have to know to
recover passwords.Â* I just did an install for a friend, and I just used
random answers, and gave her the answers printed on paper.Â* Upset, is an
accurate reaction.Â* "I'll never remember those!"Â* LOLÂ* I changed them.
:-)Â* A worse case scenario are those situations where you have to
provide both question and answer.

3.Â* What do you do for situations where the settings created by the
install seemingly make no sense?Â* For example, I've had the odd occasion
where System Restore was turned on, but no space was created for the
restore points.

Much of my employment history is general aviation, mechanic.Â* Pilots
have checklists to use.Â* Mechanics have checklists for inspections to
use.Â* OT, I found most of the manufacturer's checklists for inspections
to be useless, so I made my own.

Prior to W10, I had similar checklists for W7 and before, so my work
would be consistent.Â* I keep telling myself to make one for W10, but I
never get it done. LOLÂ* And while writing this, I've got 3 laptops here
I didn't remember check the System Restore situation.

Maybe, just maybe, I should get off my butt and make the checklist!Â* LOL

Use a password manager. That way you can put nonsensical/random answers
and have no need to remember them. As the manager can be shared between
devices the answers will always be to hand.

Tell your friends, family, colleagues and clients to do the same.

I've never used a password manager, so...

Does a password manager handle your MS or Apple info? Can it store the
answers to your hints? What if you simply want to change everything as
a security practice?

ATM, this is one of those ideas where that "little voice" in my head is
saying it's not a good idea, but you can't put a finger on the "why".


--
Ken
MacOS 10.14.6
Firefox 69.0.2
Thunderbird 60.9
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On 14/11/2019 14:36, Ken Springer wrote:
On 11/14/19 2:33 AM, Chris wrote:
On 12/11/2019 15:15, Ken Springer wrote:
This is just curiosity on my part...

For those of you who work in the industry as a job/profession, how do
you handle making the settings and answering password hint questions?

Some examples of what I'm referring to:

1.Â* When you install W10, you're asked 7 or 8 questions, like Inking on
or off, location on or off, diagnostic sending on on or off, etc. Do you
talk to your customer about those settings before you do the install?
Explaining what they do and mean?Â* These are the things I don't think
the usual users knows anything about, yet we'll comment about the
ignorance of the user.Â* If we don't talk to the user about these
situations, aren't we just perpetuating that ignorance?

2.Â* Similarly, the answers to security questions you have to know to
recover passwords.Â* I just did an install for a friend, and I just used
random answers, and gave her the answers printed on paper.Â* Upset, is an
accurate reaction.Â* "I'll never remember those!"Â* LOLÂ* I changed them.
:-)Â* A worse case scenario are those situations where you have to
provide both question and answer.

3.Â* What do you do for situations where the settings created by the
install seemingly make no sense?Â* For example, I've had the odd occasion
where System Restore was turned on, but no space was created for the
restore points.

Much of my employment history is general aviation, mechanic.Â* Pilots
have checklists to use.Â* Mechanics have checklists for inspections to
use.Â* OT, I found most of the manufacturer's checklists for inspections
to be useless, so I made my own.

Prior to W10, I had similar checklists for W7 and before, so my work
would be consistent.Â* I keep telling myself to make one for W10, but I
never get it done. LOLÂ* And while writing this, I've got 3 laptops here
I didn't remember check the System Restore situation.

Maybe, just maybe, I should get off my butt and make the checklist!Â* LOL

Use a password manager. That way you can put nonsensical/random answers
and have no need to remember them. As the manager can be shared between
devices the answers will always be to hand.

Tell your friends, family, colleagues and clients to do the same.

I've never used a password manager, so...

Does a password manager handle your MS or Apple info?

Yes. My one (and others I believe) allows you to define your own fields
for storing any number of "security" answers.

Can it store the
answers to your hints?

Yes.

What if you simply want to change everything as
a security practice?

What does that mean? If you want update all your passwords, you can. A
password manager is not going to stop you. The best thing, I think, is
that it will generate random password strings and store them without you
needing to remember or even type them in.

ATM, this is one of those ideas where that "little voice" in my head is
saying it's not a good idea, but you can't put a finger on the "why".

Password managers are a *good* idea. Especially if you're managing other
people's accounts.

In article , Ken Springer
wrote:


Use a password manager. That way you can put nonsensical/random answers
and have no need to remember them. As the manager can be shared between
devices the answers will always be to hand.

Tell your friends, family, colleagues and clients to do the same.

I've never used a password manager, so...

try a few and your questions will be answered.

Does a password manager handle your MS or Apple info? Can it store the
answers to your hints?

of course it does.

it can handle anything you want, including login/password, answers to
the insecurity questions, screen shots, certs, documents and whatever
else you want to put in there.

it can also auto-fill the login/password, which is *more* secure than
the user manually typing it as well as eliminating any possibility for
error.

What if you simply want to change everything as
a security practice?

that is a very bad idea and hasn't been recommended for *years*.

however, if you do need to change a password due to it having been
compromised, it's quite easy to do.

ATM, this is one of those ideas where that "little voice" in my head is
saying it's not a good idea, but you can't put a finger on the "why".

the voices in your head are wrong.

a password manager is an excellent idea.

On 11/14/19 7:51 AM, Chris wrote:
On 14/11/2019 14:36, Ken Springer wrote:
On 11/14/19 2:33 AM, Chris wrote:
On 12/11/2019 15:15, Ken Springer wrote:
This is just curiosity on my part...

For those of you who work in the industry as a job/profession, how do
you handle making the settings and answering password hint questions?

Some examples of what I'm referring to:

1.Â* When you install W10, you're asked 7 or 8 questions, like Inking on
or off, location on or off, diagnostic sending on on or off, etc. Do you
talk to your customer about those settings before you do the install?
Explaining what they do and mean?Â* These are the things I don't think
the usual users knows anything about, yet we'll comment about the
ignorance of the user.Â* If we don't talk to the user about these
situations, aren't we just perpetuating that ignorance?

2.Â* Similarly, the answers to security questions you have to know to
recover passwords.Â* I just did an install for a friend, and I just used
random answers, and gave her the answers printed on paper.Â* Upset, is an
accurate reaction.Â* "I'll never remember those!"Â* LOLÂ* I changed them.
:-)Â* A worse case scenario are those situations where you have to
provide both question and answer.

3.Â* What do you do for situations where the settings created by the
install seemingly make no sense?Â* For example, I've had the odd occasion
where System Restore was turned on, but no space was created for the
restore points.

Much of my employment history is general aviation, mechanic.Â* Pilots
have checklists to use.Â* Mechanics have checklists for inspections to
use.Â* OT, I found most of the manufacturer's checklists for inspections
to be useless, so I made my own.

Prior to W10, I had similar checklists for W7 and before, so my work
would be consistent.Â* I keep telling myself to make one for W10, but I
never get it done. LOLÂ* And while writing this, I've got 3 laptops here
I didn't remember check the System Restore situation.

Maybe, just maybe, I should get off my butt and make the checklist!Â* LOL

Use a password manager. That way you can put nonsensical/random answers
and have no need to remember them. As the manager can be shared between
devices the answers will always be to hand.

Tell your friends, family, colleagues and clients to do the same.

I've never used a password manager, so...

Does a password manager handle your MS or Apple info?

Yes. My one (and others I believe) allows you to define your own fields
for storing any number of "security" answers.

Can it store the
answers to your hints?

Yes.

What if you simply want to change everything as
a security practice?

What does that mean? If you want update all your passwords, you can. A
password manager is not going to stop you. The best thing, I think, is
that it will generate random password strings and store them without you
needing to remember or even type them in.

ATM, this is one of those ideas where that "little voice" in my head is
saying it's not a good idea, but you can't put a finger on the "why".

Here may be one of those reasons for that little voice.

I just did a W10 install on something around here, I think it was this
Mac Mini for Bootcamp.
To my surprise, and the installer login screen, there was no way to
create a local account at that point. And I looked. Not even any
veiled wording that might take you to Timbuktu.

So I was forced to create an MS account just to complete this install.
I did not want to use my existing account. It should be my choice to use
an MS account or a local account at this point.

I and *not* happy.

And at this point, how does a password manager store the answers and
hints, or work when you are reinstalling from the ground up?

Password managers are a *good* idea. Especially if you're managing other
people's accounts.

I would respectfully disagree, when the user is truly ignorant. In this
case, it will be a source of frustration.

I just just returned from a local repair shop where a tutoring student
had taken his system for upgrading to W10. At least twice, the shop
owner had to show him how to sign out. On the way home, I asked him how
much of the info the shop owner was talking about went over his head.
"Almost all of it." Once home, and the system set up, I had to show
hinm 3 more times.

And he'd been using W7 for a few years, at least.





--
Ken
MacOS 10.14.6
Firefox 69.0.2
Thunderbird 60.9
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

Ken Springer wrote:

I just did a W10 install on something around here, I think it was this
Mac Mini for Bootcamp.
To my surprise, and the installer login screen, there was no way to
create a local account at that point. And I looked. Not even any
veiled wording that might take you to Timbuktu.

So I was forced to create an MS account just to complete this install.

Disconnect network cable, before the account dialog, then
see what happens. The machine can't make an MSA, if it
cannot reach "the vortex" :-) It will eventually present
you with a new option (because it doesn't want you
to install Linux as revenge).

Paul

On 11/14/19 11:01 PM, Paul wrote:
Ken Springer wrote:

I just did a W10 install on something around here, I think it was this
Mac Mini for Bootcamp.
To my surprise, and the installer login screen, there was no way to
create a local account at that point. And I looked. Not even any
veiled wording that might take you to Timbuktu.

So I was forced to create an MS account just to complete this install.

Disconnect network cable, before the account dialog, then
see what happens. The machine can't make an MSA, if it
cannot reach "the vortex" :-) It will eventually present
you with a new option (because it doesn't want you
to install Linux as revenge).

I'll try to remember that when I install W10 on a W7 system I need to
upgrade.


--
Ken
MacOS 10.14.6
Firefox 69.0.2
Thunderbird 60.9
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

Ken Springer wrote:
On 11/14/19 7:51 AM, Chris wrote:
On 14/11/2019 14:36, Ken Springer wrote:
On 11/14/19 2:33 AM, Chris wrote:
On 12/11/2019 15:15, Ken Springer wrote:
This is just curiosity on my part...

For those of you who work in the industry as a job/profession, how do
you handle making the settings and answering password hint questions?

Some examples of what I'm referring to:

1.Â* When you install W10, you're asked 7 or 8 questions, like Inking on
or off, location on or off, diagnostic sending on on or off, etc. Do you
talk to your customer about those settings before you do the install?
Explaining what they do and mean?Â* These are the things I don't think
the usual users knows anything about, yet we'll comment about the
ignorance of the user.Â* If we don't talk to the user about these
situations, aren't we just perpetuating that ignorance?

2.Â* Similarly, the answers to security questions you have to know to
recover passwords.Â* I just did an install for a friend, and I just used
random answers, and gave her the answers printed on paper.Â* Upset, is an
accurate reaction.Â* "I'll never remember those!"Â* LOLÂ* I changed them.
:-)Â* A worse case scenario are those situations where you have to
provide both question and answer.

3.Â* What do you do for situations where the settings created by the
install seemingly make no sense?Â* For example, I've had the odd occasion
where System Restore was turned on, but no space was created for the
restore points.

Much of my employment history is general aviation, mechanic.Â* Pilots
have checklists to use.Â* Mechanics have checklists for inspections to
use.Â* OT, I found most of the manufacturer's checklists for inspections
to be useless, so I made my own.

Prior to W10, I had similar checklists for W7 and before, so my work
would be consistent.Â* I keep telling myself to make one for W10, but I
never get it done. LOLÂ* And while writing this, I've got 3 laptops here
I didn't remember check the System Restore situation.

Maybe, just maybe, I should get off my butt and make the checklist!Â* LOL

Use a password manager. That way you can put nonsensical/random answers
and have no need to remember them. As the manager can be shared between
devices the answers will always be to hand.

Tell your friends, family, colleagues and clients to do the same.

I've never used a password manager, so...

Does a password manager handle your MS or Apple info?

Yes. My one (and others I believe) allows you to define your own fields
for storing any number of "security" answers.

Can it store the
answers to your hints?

Yes.

What if you simply want to change everything as
a security practice?

What does that mean? If you want update all your passwords, you can. A
password manager is not going to stop you. The best thing, I think, is
that it will generate random password strings and store them without you
needing to remember or even type them in.

ATM, this is one of those ideas where that "little voice" in my head is
saying it's not a good idea, but you can't put a finger on the "why".

Here may be one of those reasons for that little voice.

I just did a W10 install on something around here, I think it was this
Mac Mini for Bootcamp.
To my surprise, and the installer login screen, there was no way to
create a local account at that point. And I looked. Not even any
veiled wording that might take you to Timbuktu.

So I was forced to create an MS account just to complete this install.
I did not want to use my existing account. It should be my choice to use
an MS account or a local account at this point.

I and *not* happy.

And at this point, how does a password manager store the answers and
hints, or work when you are reinstalling from the ground up?

You store them on another synced device eg a phone.

The problem with logins for the actual computer is that you don't have
access to the password manager, for good reason. so for that case you need
have a memorable and typeable password. A password manager can help here as
well in generating secure, "pronounceable" passwords. These are nonsensical
combinations of words, like "correct-horse-battery-staple" which are far
more secure than "l3tm31n"

https://www.xkcd.com/936/

Password managers are a *good* idea. Especially if you're managing other
people's accounts.

I would respectfully disagree, when the user is truly ignorant. In this
case, it will be a source of frustration.

Agree for the truly ignorant, but for the majority it just becomes muscle
memory.

I just just returned from a local repair shop where a tutoring student
had taken his system for upgrading to W10. At least twice, the shop
owner had to show him how to sign out. On the way home, I asked him how
much of the info the shop owner was talking about went over his head.
"Almost all of it." Once home, and the system set up, I had to show
hinm 3 more times.

And he'd been using W7 for a few years, at least.

Yep. I know people like that. I've managed to get them to use password
managers. It is a struggle, but they do get there in the end.

On 11/15/19 1:40 AM, Chris wrote:
Ken Springer wrote:
On 11/14/19 7:51 AM, Chris wrote:
On 14/11/2019 14:36, Ken Springer wrote:
On 11/14/19 2:33 AM, Chris wrote:
On 12/11/2019 15:15, Ken Springer wrote:
This is just curiosity on my part...

For those of you who work in the industry as a job/profession, how do
you handle making the settings and answering password hint questions?

Some examples of what I'm referring to:

1.Â* When you install W10, you're asked 7 or 8 questions, like Inking on
or off, location on or off, diagnostic sending on on or off, etc. Do you
talk to your customer about those settings before you do the install?
Explaining what they do and mean?Â* These are the things I don't think
the usual users knows anything about, yet we'll comment about the
ignorance of the user.Â* If we don't talk to the user about these
situations, aren't we just perpetuating that ignorance?

2.Â* Similarly, the answers to security questions you have to know to
recover passwords.Â* I just did an install for a friend, and I just used
random answers, and gave her the answers printed on paper.Â* Upset, is an
accurate reaction.Â* "I'll never remember those!"Â* LOLÂ* I changed them.
:-)Â* A worse case scenario are those situations where you have to
provide both question and answer.

3.Â* What do you do for situations where the settings created by the
install seemingly make no sense?Â* For example, I've had the odd occasion
where System Restore was turned on, but no space was created for the
restore points.

Much of my employment history is general aviation, mechanic.Â* Pilots
have checklists to use.Â* Mechanics have checklists for inspections to
use.Â* OT, I found most of the manufacturer's checklists for inspections
to be useless, so I made my own.

Prior to W10, I had similar checklists for W7 and before, so my work
would be consistent.Â* I keep telling myself to make one for W10, but I
never get it done. LOLÂ* And while writing this, I've got 3 laptops here
I didn't remember check the System Restore situation.

Maybe, just maybe, I should get off my butt and make the checklist!Â* LOL

Use a password manager. That way you can put nonsensical/random answers
and have no need to remember them. As the manager can be shared between
devices the answers will always be to hand.

Tell your friends, family, colleagues and clients to do the same.

I've never used a password manager, so...

Does a password manager handle your MS or Apple info?

Yes. My one (and others I believe) allows you to define your own fields
for storing any number of "security" answers.

Can it store the
answers to your hints?

Yes.

What if you simply want to change everything as
a security practice?

What does that mean? If you want update all your passwords, you can. A
password manager is not going to stop you. The best thing, I think, is
that it will generate random password strings and store them without you
needing to remember or even type them in.

ATM, this is one of those ideas where that "little voice" in my head is
saying it's not a good idea, but you can't put a finger on the "why".

Here may be one of those reasons for that little voice.

I just did a W10 install on something around here, I think it was this
Mac Mini for Bootcamp.
To my surprise, and the installer login screen, there was no way to
create a local account at that point. And I looked. Not even any
veiled wording that might take you to Timbuktu.

So I was forced to create an MS account just to complete this install.
I did not want to use my existing account. It should be my choice to use
an MS account or a local account at this point.

I and *not* happy.

And at this point, how does a password manager store the answers and
hints, or work when you are reinstalling from the ground up?

You store them on another synced device eg a phone.

Don't take this wrong, but I find it interesting how, in general, we now
assume someone has more than one device to sync with. G

Not everyone does, and that includes me. :-) Why?

1. I don't need the "anchor" that devices have become. People answer
them when they ring, totally ignoring anyone with them. Is that
respectful to the person(s) you're with?

2. Budgetary. I can't afford them anymore. I do have a Tracfone,
$10.79/month. More of an emergency phone than anything else.

3. Mobile phones do not work where I live, no line of sight to the cell
towers. Since I have a working landline, certainly not going to pay for
a smartphone just to have connection using wireless for a dozen phone
calls a month. LOL

4. Emergency phone service. Lose a cell tower, you have no mobile
phone. Much harder to lose landline service. You don't need the power
company for this.

And, ATM, more interested in how people handle this with no access to
anything else the owner may have.

The problem with logins for the actual computer is that you don't have
access to the password manager, for good reason. so for that case you need
have a memorable and typeable password. A password manager can help here as
well in generating secure, "pronounceable" passwords. These are nonsensical
combinations of words, like "correct-horse-battery-staple" which are far
more secure than "l3tm31n"

I did some basic tutoring for a volunteer at a local social agency,
stressing passwords. Sometime later, they upgraded to a VoIP system in
an area with poor internet connectivity. Mr. Smarty Pants who was
installing the system needed to get into the gateway, so tried to use
her computer. He couldn't get in.

Her password? "Jonny come lately" LOL I've not divulged anything
here, as she's no longer there, and the system was replaced long ago.

https://www.xkcd.com/936/

LOL

Password managers are a *good* idea. Especially if you're managing other
people's accounts.

I would respectfully disagree, when the user is truly ignorant. In this
case, it will be a source of frustration.

Agree for the truly ignorant, but for the majority it just becomes muscle
memory.

Sadly, it's amazing how many truly ignorant users there are. Which
leads me to the question, do they really know what they are doing with
their password manager?

I just just returned from a local repair shop where a tutoring student
had taken his system for upgrading to W10. At least twice, the shop
owner had to show him how to sign out. On the way home, I asked him how
much of the info the shop owner was talking about went over his head.
"Almost all of it." Once home, and the system set up, I had to show
hinm 3 more times.

And he'd been using W7 for a few years, at least.

Yep. I know people like that. I've managed to get them to use password
managers. It is a struggle, but they do get there in the end.

I'm going to give this guy a call today (Friday) or Saturday, to see how
he's doing. It may be a mistake to even ask. LOL

--
Ken
MacOS 10.14.6
Firefox 69.0.2
Thunderbird 60.9
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

In article , Ken Springer
wrote:


And at this point, how does a password manager store the answers and
hints, or work when you are reinstalling from the ground up?

You store them on another synced device eg a phone.

Don't take this wrong, but I find it interesting how, in general, we now
assume someone has more than one device to sync with. G

Not everyone does, and that includes me. :-) Why?

the number who do not is close to zero.

1. I don't need the "anchor" that devices have become. People answer
them when they ring, totally ignoring anyone with them. Is that
respectful to the person(s) you're with?

that's not the fault of the device.

2. Budgetary. I can't afford them anymore. I do have a Tracfone,
$10.79/month. More of an emergency phone than anything else.

nobody said you have to buy top of the line.

3. Mobile phones do not work where I live, no line of sight to the cell
towers. Since I have a working landline, certainly not going to pay for
a smartphone just to have connection using wireless for a dozen phone
calls a month. LOL

a mobile device does not need cellular service to use a password
manager (or other apps for that matter). in fact, you don't even need
cellular service at all.

everything can be done over wifi, and once synced, it does not need any
connection at all.

if money is an issue, get a used iphone or android phone and don't
bother activating the cellular service. install a password manager app,
sync. done.

4. Emergency phone service. Lose a cell tower, you have no mobile
phone. Much harder to lose landline service. You don't need the power
company for this.

not true.

a substantial amount of landline service now uses fibre, which requires
power from the power company and won't work in a blackout.

but even if the landline does work, that won't help if you're injured
and can't get to it.

a mobile phone in your pocket will help and quite possibly, be a life
saver.

nospam wrote:


not true.

a substantial amount of landline service now uses fibre, which requires
power from the power company and won't work in a blackout.

but even if the landline does work, that won't help if you're injured
and can't get to it.

a mobile phone in your pocket will help and quite possibly, be a life
saver.

The last time we had a power outage here, mobile phone was spotty again.
(That was within the last couple weeks.)

Even though generators have been added to all the towers, for backup.

In theory you have coverage. In practice, not so much.

If you have a mobile phone, have a car handy so you can
drive to a tower. A tower that is working.

Paul

In article , Jim H
wrote:

a password manager is an excellent idea.

It is only if you can trust the entity that wrote the password manager
program.

many password managers are open source and/or have had security audits,
so that is not an issue.

of course, you also need to trust the entity that wrote the operating
system, all software installed on the computer, the compilers used to
create those, all web sites you visit and the companies you provide a
login and password to.

On 15/11/2019 09:44, Ken Springer wrote:
On 11/15/19 1:40 AM, Chris wrote:
Ken Springer wrote:
On 11/14/19 7:51 AM, Chris wrote:
On 14/11/2019 14:36, Ken Springer wrote:
On 11/14/19 2:33 AM, Chris wrote:

I just did a W10 install on something around here, I think it was this
Mac Mini for Bootcamp.
To my surprise, and the installer login screen, there was no way to
create a local account at that point.Â* And I looked.Â* Not even any
veiled wording that might take you to Timbuktu.

So I was forced to create an MS account just to complete this install.
I did not want to use my existing account. It should be my choice to use
an MS account or a local account at this point.

I and *not* happy.

And at this point, how does a password manager store the answers and
hints, or work when you are reinstalling from the ground up?

You store them on another synced device eg a phone.

Don't take this wrong, but I find it interesting how, in general, we now
assume someone has more than one device to sync with.Â* G

It is the norm, but you're right there are many who don't. In that case,
in terms of the pw manager, you write down your answers temporarily.
Then, when the machine is setup, input them into the password manager.
Given this is a microsoft account you are going to need the details when
logging into the store, xbox or other MS service.

Not everyone does, and that includes me.Â* :-)Â* Why?

1.Â* I don't need the "anchor" that devices have become.Â* People answer
them when they ring, totally ignoring anyone with them.Â* Is that
respectful to the person(s) you're with?

That's the people being rude not the phone.

2.Â* Budgetary.Â* I can't afford them anymore.Â* I do have a Tracfone,
$10.79/month.Â* More of an emergency phone than anything else.

I pay about half than that for my smartphone

3.Â* Mobile phones do not work where I live, no line of sight to the cell
towers.Â* Since I have a working landline, certainly not going to pay for
a smartphone just to have connection using wireless for a dozen phone
calls a month.Â* LOL

There are more a places where a mobile is more useable than a landline
than vice versa. Out shopping, at the restaurant, in the car, etc. The
"mobile' aspect is very useful for most people.

4.Â* Emergency phone service.Â* Lose a cell tower, you have no mobile
phone.Â* Much harder to lose landline service.Â* You don't need the power
company for this.

They're different that's all. You can easily lose the landline due to
falling trees.

We all make our own choices and those are yours, which is fine.

And, ATM, more interested in how people handle this with no access to
anything else the owner may have.

That's a pretty rare occurrence. And, bringing up edge cases doesn't
really change the general utility and safety of password managers. Even
for someone with only a single PC.

The problem with logins for the actual computer is that you don't have
access to the password manager, for good reason. so for that case you
need
have a memorable and typeable password. A password manager can help
here as
well in generating secure, "pronounceable" passwords. These are
nonsensical
combinations of words, like "correct-horse-battery-staple" which are far
more secure than "l3tm31n"

I did some basic tutoring for a volunteer at a local social agency,
stressing passwords.

What do you recommend people do, then, regarding using and managing
their passwords?

Password managers are a *good* idea. Especially if you're managing
other
people's accounts.

I would respectfully disagree, when the user is truly ignorant.Â* In this
case, it will be a source of frustration.

Agree for the truly ignorant, but for the majority it just becomes muscle
memory.

Sadly, it's amazing how many truly ignorant users there are.Â* Which
leads me to the question, do they really know what they are doing with
their password manager?

Probably not, just like some users who use computers on a daily basis.
They can only do very specific tasks in a prescribed way on a computer.
Change a single step or move a button and they're completely lost. They
have no concept of what the task is actually doing.

On 11/15/19 10:26 AM, Chris wrote:
On 15/11/2019 09:44, Ken Springer wrote:
On 11/15/19 1:40 AM, Chris wrote:
Ken Springer wrote:
On 11/14/19 7:51 AM, Chris wrote:
On 14/11/2019 14:36, Ken Springer wrote:
On 11/14/19 2:33 AM, Chris wrote:

I just did a W10 install on something around here, I think it was this
Mac Mini for Bootcamp.
To my surprise, and the installer login screen, there was no way to
create a local account at that point.Â* And I looked.Â* Not even any
veiled wording that might take you to Timbuktu.

So I was forced to create an MS account just to complete this install.
I did not want to use my existing account. It should be my choice to use
an MS account or a local account at this point.

I and *not* happy.

And at this point, how does a password manager store the answers and
hints, or work when you are reinstalling from the ground up?

You store them on another synced device eg a phone.

Hi, Chris.

Sorry for the late reply. Too many other things, and just too tired to
get to this.

Don't take this wrong, but I find it interesting how, in general, we now
assume someone has more than one device to sync with.Â* G

It is the norm, but you're right there are many who don't. In that case,
in terms of the pw manager, you write down your answers temporarily.
Then, when the machine is setup, input them into the password manager.
Given this is a microsoft account you are going to need the details when
logging into the store, xbox or other MS service.

That's my basic question, how to others handle this need for the details
when it's a customer they don't know?

Not everyone does, and that includes me.Â* :-)Â* Why?

1.Â* I don't need the "anchor" that devices have become.Â* People answer
them when they ring, totally ignoring anyone with them.Â* Is that
respectful to the person(s) you're with?

That's the people being rude not the phone.

Agreed, I didn't mean to intimate it was the phone.

2.Â* Budgetary.Â* I can't afford them anymore.Â* I do have a Tracfone,
$10.79/month.Â* More of an emergency phone than anything else.

I pay about half than that for my smartphone.

Who's your provider?

3.Â* Mobile phones do not work where I live, no line of sight to the cell
towers.Â* Since I have a working landline, certainly not going to pay for
a smartphone just to have connection using wireless for a dozen phone
calls a month.Â* LOL

There are more a places where a mobile is more useable than a landline
than vice versa. Out shopping, at the restaurant, in the car, etc. The
"mobile' aspect is very useful for most people.

I would submit this is a lifestyle choice, and a choice I don't wish to
live. And I get a bit perturbed when others assume everyone is like them.

That choice makes me wonder, how much money does it add to an
individual's cost of living?

4.Â* Emergency phone service.Â* Lose a cell tower, you have no mobile
phone.Â* Much harder to lose landline service.Â* You don't need the power
company for this.

They're different that's all. You can easily lose the landline due to
falling trees.

This would depend on how well your local phone company has learned about
the environment they are operating in. Have they adjusted to "lessons
learned" from the past? I wonder if PG&E has, in California.

Here, phone lines have been buried for years. Only the pedestals are
above ground.

We all make our own choices and those are yours, which is fine.

People need to make smart choices, many don't. Even public services like
the Sheriff's Dept. know a landline is a smart choice here.

And, ATM, more interested in how people handle this with no access to
anything else the owner may have.

That's a pretty rare occurrence. And, bringing up edge cases doesn't
really change the general utility and safety of password managers. Even
for someone with only a single PC.

Why is it a rare occurrence? Wouldn't almost every installation of W10
by a shop, for a customer they've never seen, need this information?

The problem with logins for the actual computer is that you don't have
access to the password manager, for good reason. so for that case you
need
have a memorable and typeable password. A password manager can help
here as
well in generating secure, "pronounceable" passwords. These are
nonsensical
combinations of words, like "correct-horse-battery-staple" which are far
more secure than "l3tm31n"

I did some basic tutoring for a volunteer at a local social agency,
stressing passwords.

What do you recommend people do, then, regarding using and managing
their passwords?

Specifics depend on the user's situation. I would recommend different
things for a computer used by multiple individuals than I would for a
single user system, such as mine.

Trying to cover the most people with a simple answer, I would put the
passwords in a spreadsheet, save the file to a thumb drive, and leave
the drive stored somewhere. Print it and store it in a safe place if
you have a hard time remembering them, and you don't have auto-fill
turned on in your browser.

From this point, what I would tell someone would vary from individual
to individual. I do like the KISS principle, though. Much easier on
your psyche. G

Password managers are a *good* idea. Especially if you're managing
other
people's accounts.

I would respectfully disagree, when the user is truly ignorant.Â* In this
case, it will be a source of frustration.

Agree for the truly ignorant, but for the majority it just becomes muscle
memory.

Sadly, it's amazing how many truly ignorant users there are.Â* Which
leads me to the question, do they really know what they are doing with
their password manager?

Probably not, just like some users who use computers on a daily basis.
They can only do very specific tasks in a prescribed way on a computer.
Change a single step or move a button and they're completely lost. They
have no concept of what the task is actually doing.

These are the ones that really irritate me. They can do that simple,
"by rote" system, and think they know how to use a computer. :-(



--
Ken
MacOS 10.14.6
Firefox 69.0.2
Thunderbird 60.9
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

Ken Springer wrote:

I was forced to create an MS account just to complete this install.

They keep making it *appear* that you must create an MS account, but it
isn't the case, the latest install required cutting-off access to the
WiFi when it attempts to create the MS account, at which point it gives
up and allows you to use a local account ...