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O.T. Low volate for UPS
I recently bought an APC UPS system.
With no power to it, the voltage of the outlets is 86 Volts. Is that normal ? Battery is fully charged. |
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O.T. Low volate for UPS
Andy wrote:
I recently bought an APC UPS system. With no power to it, the voltage of the outlets is 86 Volts. Is that normal ? Battery is fully charged. Connect a 60W lightbulb. Make another voltage measurement with the new load in place. Paul |
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O.T. Low volate for UPS
On 7/12/2016 12:22 PM, Andy wrote:
I recently bought an APC UPS system. With no power to it, the voltage of the outlets is 86 Volts. Is that normal ? Battery is fully charged. How are you measuring it? What waveform does the measurement system expect for accurate readout? What waveform does the ups supply? |
#4
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O.T. Low voltage for UPS
"Andy" wrote in message
... I recently bought an APC UPS system. With no power to it, the voltage of the outlets is 86 Volts. Is that normal ? What did APC answer when you asked? -- Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) |
#5
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O.T. Low volate for UPS
On 7/12/2016 3:22 PM, Andy wrote:
I recently bought an APC UPS system. With no power to it, the voltage of the outlets is 86 Volts. Is that normal ? Battery is fully charged. What model is the APC UPS ? I just checked two units... Back-UPS CS 500: ---------------- On AC Power - 118.6 VAC On DC Power - 101.5 VAC Back-UPS CS 350: ---------------- On AC Power - 119.5 VAC On DC Power - 92.5VAC Measured with a DMM on 200VAC range -- Dave Multi-AV Scanning Tool - http://multi-av.thespykiller.co.uk http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp |
#6
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5W
David H. Lipman wrote:
On 7/12/2016 3:22 PM, Andy wrote: I recently bought an APC UPS system. With no power to it, the voltage of the outlets is 86 Volts. Is that normal ? Battery is fully charged. What model is the APC UPS ? I just checked two units... Back-UPS CS 500: ---------------- On AC Power - 118.6 VAC On DC Power - 101.5 VAC Back-UPS CS 350: ---------------- On AC Power - 119.5 VAC On DC Power - 92.5VAC Measured with a DMM on 200VAC range Tried a measurement here. Surprised but not surprised. On AC power - both meters read ~120V - the power company tells me the mast voltage should be 113V, but we're back to the 120-121V range, which is close to being too high. On internal battery - Kill-O-Watt P4400 - reads 120-122V from inverter - RS 22-168A reads around 100V from inverter Test load - 40W light bulb and other stray loads - two computers sleeping (one 5W, one 7.5W) The Kill-O-Watt has the same kind of front end as the digital power meter on the outside of our houses. Whole house power meters uses sigma-delta converters running at high speed (125KHz to 1MHz range), and integrate the area under the curve. The processing is lots of good digital math. The RS 22-168A on the other hand, converts whatever AC waveform is coming in, into a DC voltage, and an ADC running at 1Hz or so takes a reading (probably using the dual slope method). So it takes one "sniff" with a sample-and-hold, then does the dual slope conversion. I don't really think it is "TrueRMS capable". And that's why the reading is off. On authentic sine waves, the RS 22-168A and the Kill-O-Watt, agree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_RMS_converter Owning a Kill-O-Watt is highly recommended for power-line functions. I've also tried measuring current flow with my clamp-on ammeter (Hall probe based), and that suffers the same problem. Namely, on distorted waveforms, the readings are way off. The Kill-o-Watt for example, when measuring the ATX PSU, gets the right answer (~5W) for computer sleep. The computer with twice as many sticks of RAM is the 7.5W one, when it is sleeping. These are reasonable values. So I really only have one TrueRMS instrument here. One other thing to note - in my test (using the Test button on the front of the UPS), the brilliance of the light bulb is briefly higher than normal for the first second. Which I've never noticed before. It looks like the inverter actually overshoots when it first starts to run. It's a little too quick to detect with anything but an oscilloscope. Paul |
#7
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5W
On 7/13/2016 8:38 AM, Paul wrote:
David H. Lipman wrote: On 7/12/2016 3:22 PM, Andy wrote: I recently bought an APC UPS system. With no power to it, the voltage of the outlets is 86 Volts. Is that normal ? Battery is fully charged. What model is the APC UPS ? I just checked two units... Back-UPS CS 500: ---------------- On AC Power - 118.6 VAC On DC Power - 101.5 VAC Back-UPS CS 350: ---------------- On AC Power - 119.5 VAC On DC Power - 92.5VAC Measured with a DMM on 200VAC range Tried a measurement here. Surprised but not surprised. On AC power - both meters read ~120V - the power company tells me the mast voltage should be 113V, but we're back to the 120-121V range, which is close to being too high. On internal battery - Kill-O-Watt P4400 - reads 120-122V from inverter - RS 22-168A reads around 100V from inverter Test load - 40W light bulb and other stray loads - two computers sleeping (one 5W, one 7.5W) The Kill-O-Watt has the same kind of front end as the digital power meter on the outside of our houses. Whole house power meters uses sigma-delta converters running at high speed (125KHz to 1MHz range), and integrate the area under the curve. The processing is lots of good digital math. The RS 22-168A on the other hand, converts whatever AC waveform is coming in, into a DC voltage, and an ADC running at 1Hz or so takes a reading (probably using the dual slope method). So it takes one "sniff" with a sample-and-hold, then does the dual slope conversion. I don't really think it is "TrueRMS capable". And that's why the reading is off. On authentic sine waves, the RS 22-168A and the Kill-O-Watt, agree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_RMS_converter Owning a Kill-O-Watt is highly recommended for power-line functions. I've also tried measuring current flow with my clamp-on ammeter (Hall probe based), and that suffers the same problem. Namely, on distorted waveforms, the readings are way off. The Kill-o-Watt for example, when measuring the ATX PSU, gets the right answer (~5W) for computer sleep. The computer with twice as many sticks of RAM is the 7.5W one, when it is sleeping. These are reasonable values. So I really only have one TrueRMS instrument here. One other thing to note - in my test (using the Test button on the front of the UPS), the brilliance of the light bulb is briefly higher than normal for the first second. Which I've never noticed before. It looks like the inverter actually overshoots when it first starts to run. It's a little too quick to detect with anything but an oscilloscope. Paul There are many factors here. One must realize the difference between inverted DC and pure AC. The difference lies in the waveform. What we get from the Power Company should be a pure sinusoidal waveform. What we get from a Power Inverter is the attempt at creating pure sinusoidal waveform. Usually a square wave generation modified into a curve. We have to also understand the phaser relationship of real and apparent power. Then we have Loaded and unloaded power sources. As the load impedance matches the source impedance the voltage on the load will decrease up to 50%. The mark of a good power supply is that as the load impedance decreases the voltage on the load stays steady and does not decrease. I learned something interesting during SuperStorm sandy. I have APC UPS and I also have a Marine Battery and a 12VDC 350W power inverter. I also have a 150W power inverter built into my Dodge Grand Caravan. Here is where is got "interesting". I prefer 13~13W Compact Flourescent (CF) bulbs. I thought I would use the Marine Battery and Power light in my residence. It worked fine on one CF bulb but once I added a second CF bulb, their ability to provide light was greatly inhibited. Their reliance on a pure sinusoidal AC source had a codependency on their productivity. Once a second or 3rd bulb was added they created AC frequency patterns that inhibited their ability to produce light. -- Dave Multi-AV Scanning Tool - http://multi-av.thespykiller.co.uk http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp |
#8
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5W
On 7/13/2016 10:01 AM, David H. Lipman wrote:
I have APC UPS and I also have a Marine Battery and a 12VDC 350W power inverter. I also have a 150W power inverter built into my Dodge Grand Caravan. Here is where is got "interesting". I prefer 13~13W Compact Flourescent (CF) bulbs. I thought I would use the Marine Battery and Power light in my residence. It worked fine on one CF bulb but once I added a second CF bulb, their ability to provide light was greatly inhibited. Their reliance on a pure sinusoidal AC source had a codependency on their productivity. Once a second or 3rd bulb was added they created AC frequency patterns that inhibited their ability to produce light. Not clear what you meant by that last sentence. Can you be more specific about what you mean by "AC frequency patterns?" If the inverter voltage waveform is independent of load, I can't imagine adding more lamps making any difference until the supply voltage changes. Did you look at the voltage waveform from the inverter? I'd suggest that you might have cause and effect reversed. The 100W CFL that I just measured has a power factor of .6 as measured by a kill-a-watt. But that's not the whole story. Power factor assumes sinewave current that's out of phase with sinewave voltage. Not sure what the KAW is measuring or how it decides what math to use to generate that PF number for non-sinusoidal inputs. When you drive a CFL with a fast-rise input, you cram much of the energy into that edge instead of spreading it over a much longer portion of a real sine wave. That requires a much higher peak current. Perhaps multiple lamps exceed the peak current that the inverter can supply causing a voltage drop and consequent lower light output. |
#9
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5W
On 7/13/2016 2:09 PM, mike wrote:
On 7/13/2016 10:01 AM, David H. Lipman wrote: I have APC UPS and I also have a Marine Battery and a 12VDC 350W power inverter. I also have a 150W power inverter built into my Dodge Grand Caravan. Here is where is got "interesting". I prefer 13~13W Compact Flourescent (CF) bulbs. I thought I would use the Marine Battery and Power light in my residence. It worked fine on one CF bulb but once I added a second CF bulb, their ability to provide light was greatly inhibited. Their reliance on a pure sinusoidal AC source had a codependency on their productivity. Once a second or 3rd bulb was added they created AC frequency patterns that inhibited their ability to produce light. Not clear what you meant by that last sentence. Can you be more specific about what you mean by "AC frequency patterns?" If the inverter voltage waveform is independent of load, I can't imagine adding more lamps making any difference until the supply voltage changes. Did you look at the voltage waveform from the inverter? I'd suggest that you might have cause and effect reversed. The 100W CFL that I just measured has a power factor of .6 as measured by a kill-a-watt. But that's not the whole story. Power factor assumes sinewave current that's out of phase with sinewave voltage. Not sure what the KAW is measuring or how it decides what math to use to generate that PF number for non-sinusoidal inputs. When you drive a CFL with a fast-rise input, you cram much of the energy into that edge instead of spreading it over a much longer portion of a real sine wave. That requires a much higher peak current. Perhaps multiple lamps exceed the peak current that the inverter can supply causing a voltage drop and consequent lower light output. Maybe the term "interference" patterns would be better. Like when you use a strobe light on a rotating object and wither the light appears to go in one direction, the other direction or appears to stand still. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afshar_experiment When two dissimilar frequencies "beat". You will have super nodes, super anti nodes, the frequencies subtract and the frequencies add. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interf...ve_propagation) When I was younger I built a Zenith/HeathKit Oscilliscope. I no longer have it or another other scope to have examined the wave forms. -- Dave Multi-AV Scanning Tool - http://multi-av.thespykiller.co.uk http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp |
#10
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5W
mike wrote:
On 7/13/2016 10:01 AM, David H. Lipman wrote: I have APC UPS and I also have a Marine Battery and a 12VDC 350W power inverter. I also have a 150W power inverter built into my Dodge Grand Caravan. Here is where is got "interesting". I prefer 13~13W Compact Flourescent (CF) bulbs. I thought I would use the Marine Battery and Power light in my residence. It worked fine on one CF bulb but once I added a second CF bulb, their ability to provide light was greatly inhibited. Their reliance on a pure sinusoidal AC source had a codependency on their productivity. Once a second or 3rd bulb was added they created AC frequency patterns that inhibited their ability to produce light. Not clear what you meant by that last sentence. Can you be more specific about what you mean by "AC frequency patterns?" If the inverter voltage waveform is independent of load, I can't imagine adding more lamps making any difference until the supply voltage changes. Did you look at the voltage waveform from the inverter? I'd suggest that you might have cause and effect reversed. The 100W CFL that I just measured has a power factor of .6 as measured by a kill-a-watt. But that's not the whole story. Power factor assumes sinewave current that's out of phase with sinewave voltage. Not sure what the KAW is measuring or how it decides what math to use to generate that PF number for non-sinusoidal inputs. When you drive a CFL with a fast-rise input, you cram much of the energy into that edge instead of spreading it over a much longer portion of a real sine wave. That requires a much higher peak current. Perhaps multiple lamps exceed the peak current that the inverter can supply causing a voltage drop and consequent lower light output. I'm not following this, but I thought a CFL has its own inverter in the base ? http://www.homemade-circuits.com/201...tubelight.html Paul |
#11
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5W
On 7/13/2016 5:30 PM, Paul wrote:
mike wrote: On 7/13/2016 10:01 AM, David H. Lipman wrote: I have APC UPS and I also have a Marine Battery and a 12VDC 350W power inverter. I also have a 150W power inverter built into my Dodge Grand Caravan. Here is where is got "interesting". I prefer 13~13W Compact Flourescent (CF) bulbs. I thought I would use the Marine Battery and Power light in my residence. It worked fine on one CF bulb but once I added a second CF bulb, their ability to provide light was greatly inhibited. Their reliance on a pure sinusoidal AC source had a codependency on their productivity. Once a second or 3rd bulb was added they created AC frequency patterns that inhibited their ability to produce light. Not clear what you meant by that last sentence. Can you be more specific about what you mean by "AC frequency patterns?" If the inverter voltage waveform is independent of load, I can't imagine adding more lamps making any difference until the supply voltage changes. Did you look at the voltage waveform from the inverter? I'd suggest that you might have cause and effect reversed. The 100W CFL that I just measured has a power factor of .6 as measured by a kill-a-watt. But that's not the whole story. Power factor assumes sinewave current that's out of phase with sinewave voltage. Not sure what the KAW is measuring or how it decides what math to use to generate that PF number for non-sinusoidal inputs. When you drive a CFL with a fast-rise input, you cram much of the energy into that edge instead of spreading it over a much longer portion of a real sine wave. That requires a much higher peak current. Perhaps multiple lamps exceed the peak current that the inverter can supply causing a voltage drop and consequent lower light output. I'm not following this, but I thought a CFL has its own inverter in the base ? http://www.homemade-circuits.com/201...tubelight.html Paul Yes, for its electronics. But then it creates an high frequency at a high voltage to energize phosphorous and "fluoresce". http://www.edisontechcenter.org/Fluorescent.html "Electronic Ballasts: The electronic ballasts use semiconductors to limit power to a fluorescent lamp. First the ballast rectifies the AC power, then it chops it to make a high frequency for improved efficiency. The ballast can more precisely control power than a magnetic ballast but does have a number of problems." -- Dave Multi-AV Scanning Tool - http://multi-av.thespykiller.co.uk http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp |
#12
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5W
On 7/13/2016 12:57 PM, David H. Lipman wrote:
On 7/13/2016 2:09 PM, mike wrote: On 7/13/2016 10:01 AM, David H. Lipman wrote: I have APC UPS and I also have a Marine Battery and a 12VDC 350W power inverter. I also have a 150W power inverter built into my Dodge Grand Caravan. Here is where is got "interesting". I prefer 13~13W Compact Flourescent (CF) bulbs. I thought I would use the Marine Battery and Power light in my residence. It worked fine on one CF bulb but once I added a second CF bulb, their ability to provide light was greatly inhibited. Their reliance on a pure sinusoidal AC source had a codependency on their productivity. Once a second or 3rd bulb was added they created AC frequency patterns that inhibited their ability to produce light. Not clear what you meant by that last sentence. Can you be more specific about what you mean by "AC frequency patterns?" If the inverter voltage waveform is independent of load, I can't imagine adding more lamps making any difference until the supply voltage changes. Did you look at the voltage waveform from the inverter? I'd suggest that you might have cause and effect reversed. The 100W CFL that I just measured has a power factor of .6 as measured by a kill-a-watt. But that's not the whole story. Power factor assumes sinewave current that's out of phase with sinewave voltage. Not sure what the KAW is measuring or how it decides what math to use to generate that PF number for non-sinusoidal inputs. When you drive a CFL with a fast-rise input, you cram much of the energy into that edge instead of spreading it over a much longer portion of a real sine wave. That requires a much higher peak current. Perhaps multiple lamps exceed the peak current that the inverter can supply causing a voltage drop and consequent lower light output. Maybe the term "interference" patterns would be better. Like when you use a strobe light on a rotating object and wither the light appears to go in one direction, the other direction or appears to stand still. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afshar_experiment When two dissimilar frequencies "beat". You will have super nodes, super anti nodes, the frequencies subtract and the frequencies add. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interf...ve_propagation) When I was younger I built a Zenith/HeathKit Oscilliscope. I no longer have it or another other scope to have examined the wave forms. I understand the concept, but don't think it's relevant. The typical cheapo modified sinewave, aka square wave with some dead time, uses an inverter to generate a DC voltage somewhere around the peak of the desired output voltage. It uses a bridge of FETS or similar to generate the modified sine wave from that DC voltage. I'm assuming there are various ways to protect the bridge if the load is too much. I bought a B&D inverter at the thrift store yesterday. Quick look suggests that they use a fixed duty factor that's independent of load. The only thing that appears to be regulated is the voltage ahead of the FET bridge that turns it into a bipolar pulse. The datasheet claims it has soft start technology, suggesting that it somehow monitors peak current. Not clear how they use that tho... If your CFL has a diode bridge followed by a capacitor, the input current with sinewave drive happens over a relatively small portion of the input sinewave. Power factor is low. When you drive it with a fast rise pulse from the inverter, the peak current is much higher. I = C * dV/dT. For a sinewave, the dV/dT is relatively low near the peak where the diodes conduct. For square wave input, the dV/dT is WAY higher, so the current is much higher. I'm suggesting that the inverter can handle the peak current for one lamp, but not two. Should be very easy to verify by looking at the waveform. I expect there's lots of noise on the waveform, but it's unlikely that is the cause of a major brightness decrease. |
#13
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5W
David H. Lipman wrote:
On 7/13/2016 5:30 PM, Paul wrote: mike wrote: On 7/13/2016 10:01 AM, David H. Lipman wrote: I have APC UPS and I also have a Marine Battery and a 12VDC 350W power inverter. I also have a 150W power inverter built into my Dodge Grand Caravan. Here is where is got "interesting". I prefer 13~13W Compact Flourescent (CF) bulbs. I thought I would use the Marine Battery and Power light in my residence. It worked fine on one CF bulb but once I added a second CF bulb, their ability to provide light was greatly inhibited. Their reliance on a pure sinusoidal AC source had a codependency on their productivity. Once a second or 3rd bulb was added they created AC frequency patterns that inhibited their ability to produce light. Not clear what you meant by that last sentence. Can you be more specific about what you mean by "AC frequency patterns?" If the inverter voltage waveform is independent of load, I can't imagine adding more lamps making any difference until the supply voltage changes. Did you look at the voltage waveform from the inverter? I'd suggest that you might have cause and effect reversed. The 100W CFL that I just measured has a power factor of .6 as measured by a kill-a-watt. But that's not the whole story. Power factor assumes sinewave current that's out of phase with sinewave voltage. Not sure what the KAW is measuring or how it decides what math to use to generate that PF number for non-sinusoidal inputs. When you drive a CFL with a fast-rise input, you cram much of the energy into that edge instead of spreading it over a much longer portion of a real sine wave. That requires a much higher peak current. Perhaps multiple lamps exceed the peak current that the inverter can supply causing a voltage drop and consequent lower light output. I'm not following this, but I thought a CFL has its own inverter in the base ? http://www.homemade-circuits.com/201...tubelight.html Paul Yes, for its electronics. But then it creates an high frequency at a high voltage to energize phosphorous and "fluoresce". http://www.edisontechcenter.org/Fluorescent.html "Electronic Ballasts: The electronic ballasts use semiconductors to limit power to a fluorescent lamp. First the ballast rectifies the AC power, then it chops it to make a high frequency for improved efficiency. The ballast can more precisely control power than a magnetic ballast but does have a number of problems." It chops it at high frequency, so it is above human hearing. For the same reason the backlight in a laptop runs at 25KHz. The article here, says it runs 40-50KHz. http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/compact_fl.htm We learned a lot of lessons from television and how 15KHz (in the flyback) isn't high enough. As for "The ballast can more precisely control power", the circuit in that Sylvania bulb doesn't look all that sophisticated. I think I only see one transistor in there. And the idea of using a 1/4Watt resistor as a fuse, now, how clever is that ? What a nice smell. Paul |
#14
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5W
On 7/13/2016 6:52 PM, mike wrote:
On 7/13/2016 12:57 PM, David H. Lipman wrote: On 7/13/2016 2:09 PM, mike wrote: On 7/13/2016 10:01 AM, David H. Lipman wrote: I have APC UPS and I also have a Marine Battery and a 12VDC 350W power inverter. I also have a 150W power inverter built into my Dodge Grand Caravan. Here is where is got "interesting". I prefer 13~13W Compact Flourescent (CF) bulbs. I thought I would use the Marine Battery and Power light in my residence. It worked fine on one CF bulb but once I added a second CF bulb, their ability to provide light was greatly inhibited. Their reliance on a pure sinusoidal AC source had a codependency on their productivity. Once a second or 3rd bulb was added they created AC frequency patterns that inhibited their ability to produce light. Not clear what you meant by that last sentence. Can you be more specific about what you mean by "AC frequency patterns?" If the inverter voltage waveform is independent of load, I can't imagine adding more lamps making any difference until the supply voltage changes. Did you look at the voltage waveform from the inverter? I'd suggest that you might have cause and effect reversed. The 100W CFL that I just measured has a power factor of .6 as measured by a kill-a-watt. But that's not the whole story. Power factor assumes sinewave current that's out of phase with sinewave voltage. Not sure what the KAW is measuring or how it decides what math to use to generate that PF number for non-sinusoidal inputs. When you drive a CFL with a fast-rise input, you cram much of the energy into that edge instead of spreading it over a much longer portion of a real sine wave. That requires a much higher peak current. Perhaps multiple lamps exceed the peak current that the inverter can supply causing a voltage drop and consequent lower light output. Maybe the term "interference" patterns would be better. Like when you use a strobe light on a rotating object and wither the light appears to go in one direction, the other direction or appears to stand still. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afshar_experiment When two dissimilar frequencies "beat". You will have super nodes, super anti nodes, the frequencies subtract and the frequencies add. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interf...ve_propagation) When I was younger I built a Zenith/HeathKit Oscilliscope. I no longer have it or another other scope to have examined the wave forms. I understand the concept, but don't think it's relevant. The typical cheapo modified sinewave, aka square wave with some dead time, uses an inverter to generate a DC voltage somewhere around the peak of the desired output voltage. It uses a bridge of FETS or similar to generate the modified sine wave from that DC voltage. I'm assuming there are various ways to protect the bridge if the load is too much. I bought a B&D inverter at the thrift store yesterday. Quick look suggests that they use a fixed duty factor that's independent of load. The only thing that appears to be regulated is the voltage ahead of the FET bridge that turns it into a bipolar pulse. The datasheet claims it has soft start technology, suggesting that it somehow monitors peak current. Not clear how they use that tho... If your CFL has a diode bridge followed by a capacitor, the input current with sinewave drive happens over a relatively small portion of the input sinewave. Power factor is low. When you drive it with a fast rise pulse from the inverter, the peak current is much higher. I = C * dV/dT. For a sinewave, the dV/dT is relatively low near the peak where the diodes conduct. For square wave input, the dV/dT is WAY higher, so the current is much higher. I'm suggesting that the inverter can handle the peak current for one lamp, but not two. Should be very easy to verify by looking at the waveform. I expect there's lots of noise on the waveform, but it's unlikely that is the cause of a major brightness decrease. I don't think the CF uses just a simple bridge rectifier with electrolytic capacitor DC converter. The thing is a CF bulb has little load. A 13~14W CF on a 350W inverted 12VDC supply is not going to have a load. Therefore going from 13~14W CF to 26~28W from two CF bulbs should not go from a condition of light production to not producing light. Therefore there has to be some other condition involved. Especially considering I took a 36W LED Rope Light ( Orange LEDs for Halloween ) and also put it on the Inverter and it worked if I had 1 CF or 2 CF bulbs on the circuit. It was only the two CF bulbs that interacted with each other. BTW: It is a Tripp-Lite PowerVerter Ultra-Compact Inverter, 375 Watts http://www.homedepot.com/p/Tripp-Lit...gcl src=aw.ds -- Dave Multi-AV Scanning Tool - http://multi-av.thespykiller.co.uk http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp |
#15
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5W
ADDENDUM:
I forgot that after SuperStorm Sandy I had put up a photo on my web site. http://multi-av.thespykiller.co.uk/v...ter(LoRes).jpg -- Dave Multi-AV Scanning Tool - http://multi-av.thespykiller.co.uk http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp |
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