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#76
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Boycott Vista in the UK!
John
As of Sep '98, import duty on software was 25%, so before VAT and import taxes, that puts Vista price down to around UKBP245 which would include shipping, handling and insurance.. So let's compare prices using more or less the same criteria.. UK = 245, US = 379.. I also understand that, even if the software CD was produced in the UK, that it would be subject to import duty because the software itself is of US origin.. HMG have everything nicely in place.. good luck.. "John John" wrote in message ... Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote: I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing.. why do people expect to get the top Vista for nothing? No one said that they wanted it for nothing. The starting information for this thread was that Vista Ultimate would be priced at about US$378.99 in the United states and at £369.99 in the UK. (Amazon numbers supplied by Shenan) US378.99 = 192.52 U.K. pounds Add the 17.5% VAT that another poster mentioned (£33.69)and the final straight converted advertised price would be £226.21 VAT included. The spread of £143.78 ($283.03 US dollars) cannot be simply explained with shipping costs or that the the UK economy is that much more inefficient than the US or that the UK market is that uncompetitive. It isn't mere spin or simple BS from Microsoft... it's more to the PhD level... BS that is just Piled Higher and Deeper! John |
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#77
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Boycott Vista in the UK!
"Gerry Cornell" wrote in message
... EU Regulations do not allow a manufacturer to fix retail prices Not to hijack this but you've brought up something here. IPods retail for just about the same price everywhere in the USA. It appears that Apple is controlling the price and Microsoft had followed suit with their Zune. How are IPods priced in the EU? |
#78
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Boycott Vista in the UK!
Whichever way you calculate it Mike, it comes to about the same numbers
that I gave earlier and that Shenan gave us, 315 Pounds + 17.5 VAT = 370.13 Pounds, what amazon.uk sells it for. My understanding is that advertized prices in the UK must include the VAT, so the Amazon price follows the prices you gave. Without the taxes using the numbers you gave, £315.00 = US$619.41, a spread of US$240.41. To me, in these days of globalization and free trade that price difference seems out of whack and difficult to justify. John Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote: John Brit price with no tax is UKBP315 against US$379.. Tax rates in the US range between 4 and 9%, I believe, and into double figures in Ontario and Quebec in Canada, 14 and 16% respectively Profit margins are smaller in North America generally, and none of us have any idea how much is paid by the retailers on either continent.. the fact that the Brit price is so high in the UK does not necessarily reflect the price paid from the manufacturer.. The UK, along with one or two other member countries, have failed to adopt the Euro as regular currency, and as such is prone to varying exchange rates in a way that other member countries may not be.. While I accept that the price difference is large, it is not right to quote a price without tax against a price with tax, especially where the tax rate is so high as in the UK.. Something else that is not taken into account is UK import duty for goods manufactured from outside of the EU.. that can range from between 5 and 85%.. Then there are shipping, handling and insurance costs.. I fail to see why MS are being blamed for all of this.. "John John" wrote in message ... Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote: I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing.. why do people expect to get the top Vista for nothing? No one said that they wanted it for nothing. The starting information for this thread was that Vista Ultimate would be priced at about US$378.99 in the United states and at £369.99 in the UK. (Amazon numbers supplied by Shenan) US378.99 = 192.52 U.K. pounds Add the 17.5% VAT that another poster mentioned (£33.69)and the final straight converted advertised price would be £226.21 VAT included. The spread of £143.78 ($283.03 US dollars) cannot be simply explained with shipping costs or that the the UK economy is that much more inefficient than the US or that the UK market is that uncompetitive. It isn't mere spin or simple BS from Microsoft... it's more to the PhD level... BS that is just Piled Higher and Deeper! John |
#79
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Boycott Vista in the UK!
John
Read my second post re import duty.. "John John" wrote in message ... Whichever way you calculate it Mike, it comes to about the same numbers that I gave earlier and that Shenan gave us, 315 Pounds + 17.5 VAT = 370.13 Pounds, what amazon.uk sells it for. My understanding is that advertized prices in the UK must include the VAT, so the Amazon price follows the prices you gave. Without the taxes using the numbers you gave, £315.00 = US$619.41, a spread of US$240.41. To me, in these days of globalization and free trade that price difference seems out of whack and difficult to justify. John Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote: John Brit price with no tax is UKBP315 against US$379.. Tax rates in the US range between 4 and 9%, I believe, and into double figures in Ontario and Quebec in Canada, 14 and 16% respectively Profit margins are smaller in North America generally, and none of us have any idea how much is paid by the retailers on either continent.. the fact that the Brit price is so high in the UK does not necessarily reflect the price paid from the manufacturer.. The UK, along with one or two other member countries, have failed to adopt the Euro as regular currency, and as such is prone to varying exchange rates in a way that other member countries may not be.. While I accept that the price difference is large, it is not right to quote a price without tax against a price with tax, especially where the tax rate is so high as in the UK.. Something else that is not taken into account is UK import duty for goods manufactured from outside of the EU.. that can range from between 5 and 85%.. Then there are shipping, handling and insurance costs.. I fail to see why MS are being blamed for all of this.. "John John" wrote in message ... Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote: I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing.. why do people expect to get the top Vista for nothing? No one said that they wanted it for nothing. The starting information for this thread was that Vista Ultimate would be priced at about US$378.99 in the United states and at £369.99 in the UK. (Amazon numbers supplied by Shenan) US378.99 = 192.52 U.K. pounds Add the 17.5% VAT that another poster mentioned (£33.69)and the final straight converted advertised price would be £226.21 VAT included. The spread of £143.78 ($283.03 US dollars) cannot be simply explained with shipping costs or that the the UK economy is that much more inefficient than the US or that the UK market is that uncompetitive. It isn't mere spin or simple BS from Microsoft... it's more to the PhD level... BS that is just Piled Higher and Deeper! John |
#80
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Boycott Vista in the UK!
Mike
Inline Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote: Gerry Whatever you do, don't blame the British retailers.. bless their little souls, they are only trying to make an honest living.. and they have been doing that since time immemorial, screwing the British public for every last penny for all they are worth, knowing damn well that the average Brit can't cross a national border easily to get a better deal.. That is balloney. Crossing the channel from Dover to Calais with a Transit Van to stock up with booze for personal consumption is very popular. Importing cars from Belgium is also popular. Have you ever lived in the UK? All prices in North America do NOT include federal or state/provincial taxes, unlike the UK where, unless one is a middleman, ALL prices include ALL taxes.. if you see a product in your local PC World or wherever, the price shown is what you will expect to pay.. here in Canada, to buy a $499 dollar Vista Ultimate, you would have to finally pay nearer $600 depending upon province.. Prices displayed in retail outlets are normally inclusive of VAT. Prices quoted in the commercial world are normally on an exclusive of VAT basis. VAT is neutral in the world of business as, apart from certain exceptions, any VAT paid on purchases is deducted from VAT collected on sales and only the difference is paid over to Revenue and Customs. Rate of exchange $CAD 1.18 to $US 1.00. $US499 = $CAD589. Where's your grievance? Re economies of scale, the North American market is HUGE.. even Macs sell in large numbers, way surpassing the 5 user customer base in the UK (two in Croydon and three suspected Mac users out in the UK wilds (all wanted for questioning re gross stupidity).. towns with only 10000 inhabitants, large by Canadian standards (96% of Canadian place names have a population of 300 or less people), have as many as five retailers all selling computers.. UK residents have zero idea of the economies of scale here in North America.. this is a 'throw away' society, and goods are priced by the retailers accordingly.. I am not an economist but the larger the market does not produce ever greater economies of scale. Indeed larger organisations can be less efficient. The population per sq mile in the UK is far higher than the US so distribution can be more efficient and offers greater opportunities for cost savings than a a population dispersed over a large land mass. Of course large parts of Canada are remote with a very low population per sq mile. Microsoft is dependent on world wide sales to recoup it's high research and development costs. If those sales did not exist customers in the US would need to pay significantly more for Microsoft products. Re. pricing to retailers, there has always been a discount for bulk purchases.. all manufacturers do it, whether producing software, cigarettes or candy.. unfair on the small operation? yes of course it is, but when you go into a store, do you not ask for a discount if buying more than a few products at one time? I have known Brits that do, and who expect a discount.. The debate is about pricing as it impacts on home users. Not many home users in either country would qualify for bulk discounts. Large retailers will gain discounts in both countries. No one is complaining so I fail to see the relevance of your point. I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing.. why do people expect to get the top Vista for nothing? would these same people go into a BMW auto dealership and complain that they need some of the features of a 7 series car but object and cry 'unfair' to the $80,000 price tag? no, of course not.. if they want a BMW, they buy one within their means and accept the limitations or go look for some other product that more meets their needs.. No one in the UK is asking for preferential treatment. We just want to pay a "fair" price. -- Regards. Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
#81
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Boycott Vista in the UK!
Mike A Brit can buy in Europe or the US if they wish. Who is going to stop them? Bah. The next minute you will ranting on about how wrong it was to be taxed without representation. -- Regards. Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User" wrote in message ... UK retailers have it all their own way.. isolated from all around them by language. there is no competition.. a Brit can't go to a Euro country and pick up English software versions.. the twenty miles of sea between the UK and Europe has been good to those who seek to control in the UK, and continues to strut its stuff.. Brits were lead to believe that foreigners were no better than savages, where the reverse was actually the truth.. but the people in North America fight back.. I watched a video of a US family staying in the UK. they had rented an apartment so they could get their own food and taken stockpiles of crisps and biscuits to nibble on, politely refusing Brit food with the excuse that they were not hungry.. too funny.. they had been told that the Brits eat squirrel and other cute rodents.. surely, we ate squirrel only on high days and holidays, unlike the country folk of Missouri where squirrel, either shot or in road kill form, is daily fare.. |
#82
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Boycott Vista in the UK!
Ken
Is Canada part of the US;-) ? -- Regards. Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Ken Blake, MVP wrote: Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote: the twenty miles of sea between the UK and Europe has been good to "Between"? That's odd. I had always though the UK was in Europe. ;-) |
#83
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Boycott Vista in the UK!
Well said John Unless I am mistaken Mike's is not too hot on arithmetic G1 -- Regards. Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "John John" wrote in message ... Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote: I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing.. why do people expect to get the top Vista for nothing? No one said that they wanted it for nothing. The starting information for this thread was that Vista Ultimate would be priced at about US$378.99 in the United states and at £369.99 in the UK. (Amazon numbers supplied by Shenan) US378.99 = 192.52 U.K. pounds Add the 17.5% VAT that another poster mentioned (£33.69)and the final straight converted advertised price would be £226.21 VAT included. The spread of £143.78 ($283.03 US dollars) cannot be simply explained with shipping costs or that the the UK economy is that much more inefficient than the US or that the UK market is that uncompetitive. It isn't mere spin or simple BS from Microsoft... it's more to the PhD level... BS that is just Piled Higher and Deeper! John |
#84
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Boycott Vista in the UK!
Gerry Cornell wrote:
Ken Is Canada part of the US;-) ? Certainly not. But it is part of America! ;-) -- Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User Please reply to the newsgroup Ken Blake, MVP wrote: Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote: the twenty miles of sea between the UK and Europe has been good to "Between"? That's odd. I had always though the UK was in Europe. ;-) |
#85
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Boycott Vista in the UK!
Mike
The costs of importing are not easily ascertained but you are exagerating. I found this link http://www.taxationweb.co.uk/guides/customs_duty.php Even assuming the highest rate of 25% that is a long way from your 85%. VAT will also be charged at 17.5% and there will also be shipping costs. However, if you like to send me a copy of Vista Ultimate in the post as a gift a concessionary duty rate of 3% is all I would have to pay. I think there also concessions on importing computer hardware but I only noticed a brief reference to it. I suspect that Import Duty is something that UK purchasers are not aware of. Apparently there are in excess of 10,000 Tariff categories and they are not easily accessed casually. I am wondering whether there might be a way to find out the rate of duty on computer software. -- Regards. Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User" wrote in message ... John Something else that is not taken into account is UK import duty for goods manufactured from outside of the EU.. that can range from between 5 and 85%.. Then there are shipping, handling and insurance costs.. I fail to see why MS are being blamed for all of this.. "John John" wrote in message |
#86
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Boycott Vista in the UK!
Mike
Stop comparing apples with oranges. If Vista Ultimate cost $379 in the US add 50% for VAT import duty and shipping gives $559. Convert at $1.9659 to £ and result is UK resident should pay £289. However, if purchased retail from Amazon UK it costs £351. An amount of £62 or just over 20% is going somewhere? Actually it is more than that because import duty is not levied on the retail price but on the cost to the importer, which will be a wholesale price. -- Regards. Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote: John As of Sep '98, import duty on software was 25%, so before VAT and import taxes, that puts Vista price down to around UKBP245 which would include shipping, handling and insurance.. So let's compare prices using more or less the same criteria.. UK = 245, US = 379.. I also understand that, even if the software CD was produced in the UK, that it would be subject to import duty because the software itself is of US origin.. HMG have everything nicely in place.. good luck.. |
#87
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Boycott Vista in the UK!
Gerry
The OS language version would stop most Brits.. "Gerry Cornell" wrote in message ... Mike A Brit can buy in Europe or the US if they wish. Who is going to stop them? Bah. The next minute you will ranting on about how wrong it was to be taxed without representation. -- Regards. Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User" wrote in message ... UK retailers have it all their own way.. isolated from all around them by language. there is no competition.. a Brit can't go to a Euro country and pick up English software versions.. the twenty miles of sea between the UK and Europe has been good to those who seek to control in the UK, and continues to strut its stuff.. Brits were lead to believe that foreigners were no better than savages, where the reverse was actually the truth.. but the people in North America fight back.. I watched a video of a US family staying in the UK. they had rented an apartment so they could get their own food and taken stockpiles of crisps and biscuits to nibble on, politely refusing Brit food with the excuse that they were not hungry.. too funny.. they had been told that the Brits eat squirrel and other cute rodents.. surely, we ate squirrel only on high days and holidays, unlike the country folk of Missouri where squirrel, either shot or in road kill form, is daily fare.. |
#88
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Boycott Vista in the UK!
Gerry
It's ok.. I will leave you to blame MS for it all.. I really don't care.. and yes, I did live in the UK, was born in the UK and was a business consultant in the UK.. "Gerry Cornell" wrote in message ... Mike Inline Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote: Gerry Whatever you do, don't blame the British retailers.. bless their little souls, they are only trying to make an honest living.. and they have been doing that since time immemorial, screwing the British public for every last penny for all they are worth, knowing damn well that the average Brit can't cross a national border easily to get a better deal.. That is balloney. Crossing the channel from Dover to Calais with a Transit Van to stock up with booze for personal consumption is very popular. Importing cars from Belgium is also popular. Have you ever lived in the UK? All prices in North America do NOT include federal or state/provincial taxes, unlike the UK where, unless one is a middleman, ALL prices include ALL taxes.. if you see a product in your local PC World or wherever, the price shown is what you will expect to pay.. here in Canada, to buy a $499 dollar Vista Ultimate, you would have to finally pay nearer $600 depending upon province.. Prices displayed in retail outlets are normally inclusive of VAT. Prices quoted in the commercial world are normally on an exclusive of VAT basis. VAT is neutral in the world of business as, apart from certain exceptions, any VAT paid on purchases is deducted from VAT collected on sales and only the difference is paid over to Revenue and Customs. Rate of exchange $CAD 1.18 to $US 1.00. $US499 = $CAD589. Where's your grievance? Re economies of scale, the North American market is HUGE.. even Macs sell in large numbers, way surpassing the 5 user customer base in the UK (two in Croydon and three suspected Mac users out in the UK wilds (all wanted for questioning re gross stupidity).. towns with only 10000 inhabitants, large by Canadian standards (96% of Canadian place names have a population of 300 or less people), have as many as five retailers all selling computers.. UK residents have zero idea of the economies of scale here in North America.. this is a 'throw away' society, and goods are priced by the retailers accordingly.. I am not an economist but the larger the market does not produce ever greater economies of scale. Indeed larger organisations can be less efficient. The population per sq mile in the UK is far higher than the US so distribution can be more efficient and offers greater opportunities for cost savings than a a population dispersed over a large land mass. Of course large parts of Canada are remote with a very low population per sq mile. Microsoft is dependent on world wide sales to recoup it's high research and development costs. If those sales did not exist customers in the US would need to pay significantly more for Microsoft products. Re. pricing to retailers, there has always been a discount for bulk purchases.. all manufacturers do it, whether producing software, cigarettes or candy.. unfair on the small operation? yes of course it is, but when you go into a store, do you not ask for a discount if buying more than a few products at one time? I have known Brits that do, and who expect a discount.. The debate is about pricing as it impacts on home users. Not many home users in either country would qualify for bulk discounts. Large retailers will gain discounts in both countries. No one is complaining so I fail to see the relevance of your point. I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing.. why do people expect to get the top Vista for nothing? would these same people go into a BMW auto dealership and complain that they need some of the features of a 7 series car but object and cry 'unfair' to the $80,000 price tag? no, of course not.. if they want a BMW, they buy one within their means and accept the limitations or go look for some other product that more meets their needs.. No one in the UK is asking for preferential treatment. We just want to pay a "fair" price. -- Regards. Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
#89
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Boycott Vista in the UK!
Mike
In theory it should not but I have not been able to check out what is on offer in Europe. I tried to find an online retailer in Holland, where many speak excellent English, but drew a blank. -- Hope this helps. Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote: Gerry The OS language version would stop most Brits.. "Gerry Cornell" wrote in message ... Mike A Brit can buy in Europe or the US if they wish. Who is going to stop them? Bah. The next minute you will ranting on about how wrong it was to be taxed without representation. -- Regards. Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User" wrote in message ... UK retailers have it all their own way.. isolated from all around them by language. there is no competition.. a Brit can't go to a Euro country and pick up English software versions.. the twenty miles of sea between the UK and Europe has been good to those who seek to control in the UK, and continues to strut its stuff.. Brits were lead to believe that foreigners were no better than savages, where the reverse was actually the truth.. but the people in North America fight back.. I watched a video of a US family staying in the UK. they had rented an apartment so they could get their own food and taken stockpiles of crisps and biscuits to nibble on, politely refusing Brit food with the excuse that they were not hungry.. too funny.. they had been told that the Brits eat squirrel and other cute rodents.. surely, we ate squirrel only on high days and holidays, unlike the country folk of Missouri where squirrel, either shot or in road kill form, is daily fare.. |
#90
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Boycott Vista in the UK!
The European Union and its member countries are signatories to the WTO
Information Technology Agreement (ITA) concluded in December 1996, tariff on software is 0%. John Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote: John Read my second post re import duty.. "John John" wrote in message ... Whichever way you calculate it Mike, it comes to about the same numbers that I gave earlier and that Shenan gave us, 315 Pounds + 17.5 VAT = 370.13 Pounds, what amazon.uk sells it for. My understanding is that advertized prices in the UK must include the VAT, so the Amazon price follows the prices you gave. Without the taxes using the numbers you gave, £315.00 = US$619.41, a spread of US$240.41. To me, in these days of globalization and free trade that price difference seems out of whack and difficult to justify. John Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote: John Brit price with no tax is UKBP315 against US$379.. Tax rates in the US range between 4 and 9%, I believe, and into double figures in Ontario and Quebec in Canada, 14 and 16% respectively Profit margins are smaller in North America generally, and none of us have any idea how much is paid by the retailers on either continent.. the fact that the Brit price is so high in the UK does not necessarily reflect the price paid from the manufacturer.. The UK, along with one or two other member countries, have failed to adopt the Euro as regular currency, and as such is prone to varying exchange rates in a way that other member countries may not be.. While I accept that the price difference is large, it is not right to quote a price without tax against a price with tax, especially where the tax rate is so high as in the UK.. Something else that is not taken into account is UK import duty for goods manufactured from outside of the EU.. that can range from between 5 and 85%.. Then there are shipping, handling and insurance costs.. I fail to see why MS are being blamed for all of this.. "John John" wrote in message ... Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote: I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing.. why do people expect to get the top Vista for nothing? No one said that they wanted it for nothing. The starting information for this thread was that Vista Ultimate would be priced at about US$378.99 in the United states and at £369.99 in the UK. (Amazon numbers supplied by Shenan) US378.99 = 192.52 U.K. pounds Add the 17.5% VAT that another poster mentioned (£33.69)and the final straight converted advertised price would be £226.21 VAT included. The spread of £143.78 ($283.03 US dollars) cannot be simply explained with shipping costs or that the the UK economy is that much more inefficient than the US or that the UK market is that uncompetitive. It isn't mere spin or simple BS from Microsoft... it's more to the PhD level... BS that is just Piled Higher and Deeper! John |
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