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Do SSDs get hot on failure?



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 13th 19, 09:49 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Peter Jason
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Posts: 2,024
Default Do SSDs get hot on failure?

I have isolated an SSD because it was very hot to
the touch (others are barely warm) and this has
fixed recurrent "scan/repair disks" flags in the
RHD notifications screen. Is this characteristic
of failing SSDs?
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  #2  
Old January 13th 19, 10:14 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 8,181
Default Do SSDs get hot on failure?

Peter Jason wrote:
I have isolated an SSD because it was very hot to
the touch (others are barely warm) and this has
fixed recurrent "scan/repair disks" flags in the
RHD notifications screen. Is this characteristic
of failing SSDs?


An SSD could be hot, because it did not receive
any cooling air. Some laptop drive bays are almost
completely insulated, and there is no airflow.

Sometimes, a laptop with such a design, ships with a
5400 RPM drive in it. Specifically, because the manufacturer
knows the bay is "power limited" and a higher performance
drive will overheat in there.

*******

The drive could run hot, as a function of the
"level of activity".

M.2 drives (running at up to 2500MB/sec), tend to hit
thermal limits more than conventional SATA SSDs (500MB/sec).

CMOS power dissipation is a function of FCV^2. And F is the
toggle frequency (as an output toggles between 0 and 1 and
back to 0 again.

We can't tell exactly what the SSD drive is doing all
the time, as it has its own processor and background
maintenance processes.

The spec sheet for the drive lists various power specs.
Like, how much power it draws on a write, and how
much power it draws when (nominally) idle.

If you had a clamp-on DC ammeter, you could measure
the current flow on the +5V wire of the SATA power cable.
Maybe a drive I have here, draws around 500mA max (as the ones
I've checked, seem ready to use with USB ports). Using your
clamp-on DC ammeter, you can measure the current flow and
get some idea whether the device is radically outside
of norms or not.

A ceramic capacitor could fail short, or a solder joint could
have a shorted solder connection, and that might
make something hot. That kind of thing has been seen
on DIMMs before, and it's a bit weird, as the DIMMs are
supposed to receive a quick test before they go into the
package. But if the drive is uniformly hot, it could be
that the drive has no air cooling. If the drive only
dissipates 0.15W at idle, it's going to be pretty hard
to raise the casing to 60C that way.

If you have a Kingston SSD, those use SandForce controllers
that compress write data and decompress read data. And that
burns up more power than drives that don't compress. The spec sheet
for the drive, should reflect that extra power usage.

Paul
  #3  
Old January 14th 19, 12:30 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Peter Jason
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,024
Default Do SSDs get hot on failure?

On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 16:14:36 -0500, Paul
wrote:

Peter Jason wrote:
I have isolated an SSD because it was very hot to
the touch (others are barely warm) and this has
fixed recurrent "scan/repair disks" flags in the
RHD notifications screen. Is this characteristic
of failing SSDs?


An SSD could be hot, because it did not receive
any cooling air. Some laptop drive bays are almost
completely insulated, and there is no airflow.

Sometimes, a laptop with such a design, ships with a
5400 RPM drive in it. Specifically, because the manufacturer
knows the bay is "power limited" and a higher performance
drive will overheat in there.

*******

The drive could run hot, as a function of the
"level of activity".

M.2 drives (running at up to 2500MB/sec), tend to hit
thermal limits more than conventional SATA SSDs (500MB/sec).

CMOS power dissipation is a function of FCV^2. And F is the
toggle frequency (as an output toggles between 0 and 1 and
back to 0 again.

We can't tell exactly what the SSD drive is doing all
the time, as it has its own processor and background
maintenance processes.

The spec sheet for the drive lists various power specs.
Like, how much power it draws on a write, and how
much power it draws when (nominally) idle.

If you had a clamp-on DC ammeter, you could measure
the current flow on the +5V wire of the SATA power cable.
Maybe a drive I have here, draws around 500mA max (as the ones
I've checked, seem ready to use with USB ports). Using your
clamp-on DC ammeter, you can measure the current flow and
get some idea whether the device is radically outside
of norms or not.

A ceramic capacitor could fail short, or a solder joint could
have a shorted solder connection, and that might
make something hot. That kind of thing has been seen
on DIMMs before, and it's a bit weird, as the DIMMs are
supposed to receive a quick test before they go into the
package. But if the drive is uniformly hot, it could be
that the drive has no air cooling. If the drive only
dissipates 0.15W at idle, it's going to be pretty hard
to raise the casing to 60C that way.

If you have a Kingston SSD, those use SandForce controllers
that compress write data and decompress read data. And that
burns up more power than drives that don't compress. The spec sheet
for the drive, should reflect that extra power usage.

Paul


Thanks, it was a Samsung 750 EVO SSD about 18
months old. Are there super-grade (military
quality) SSDs available with longer life spans?
And are the SSDs that plug into PCE slots any more
reliable? I've always known SSDs to run cool.
  #4  
Old January 14th 19, 12:44 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,508
Default Do SSDs get hot on failure?

In article , Peter Jason
wrote:

Are there super-grade (military
quality) SSDs available with longer life spans?


longer than what? ssds last for *years*.

And are the SSDs that plug into PCE slots any more
reliable?


no, but those are much faster than sata.

I've always known SSDs to run cool.


they get warm, but not scorching hot like a 7200 rpm drive would.
  #5  
Old January 14th 19, 02:13 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,181
Default Do SSDs get hot on failure?

Peter Jason wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 16:14:36 -0500, Paul
wrote:

Peter Jason wrote:
I have isolated an SSD because it was very hot to
the touch (others are barely warm) and this has
fixed recurrent "scan/repair disks" flags in the
RHD notifications screen. Is this characteristic
of failing SSDs?

An SSD could be hot, because it did not receive
any cooling air. Some laptop drive bays are almost
completely insulated, and there is no airflow.

Sometimes, a laptop with such a design, ships with a
5400 RPM drive in it. Specifically, because the manufacturer
knows the bay is "power limited" and a higher performance
drive will overheat in there.

*******

The drive could run hot, as a function of the
"level of activity".

M.2 drives (running at up to 2500MB/sec), tend to hit
thermal limits more than conventional SATA SSDs (500MB/sec).

CMOS power dissipation is a function of FCV^2. And F is the
toggle frequency (as an output toggles between 0 and 1 and
back to 0 again.

We can't tell exactly what the SSD drive is doing all
the time, as it has its own processor and background
maintenance processes.

The spec sheet for the drive lists various power specs.
Like, how much power it draws on a write, and how
much power it draws when (nominally) idle.

If you had a clamp-on DC ammeter, you could measure
the current flow on the +5V wire of the SATA power cable.
Maybe a drive I have here, draws around 500mA max (as the ones
I've checked, seem ready to use with USB ports). Using your
clamp-on DC ammeter, you can measure the current flow and
get some idea whether the device is radically outside
of norms or not.

A ceramic capacitor could fail short, or a solder joint could
have a shorted solder connection, and that might
make something hot. That kind of thing has been seen
on DIMMs before, and it's a bit weird, as the DIMMs are
supposed to receive a quick test before they go into the
package. But if the drive is uniformly hot, it could be
that the drive has no air cooling. If the drive only
dissipates 0.15W at idle, it's going to be pretty hard
to raise the casing to 60C that way.

If you have a Kingston SSD, those use SandForce controllers
that compress write data and decompress read data. And that
burns up more power than drives that don't compress. The spec sheet
for the drive, should reflect that extra power usage.

Paul


Thanks, it was a Samsung 750 EVO SSD about 18
months old. Are there super-grade (military
quality) SSDs available with longer life spans?
And are the SSDs that plug into PCE slots any more
reliable? I've always known SSDs to run cool.


The SMART table for the drive has a temperature readout.
You could try that, to quantify the temperature.

A Samsung probably doesn't use data compression like
the Sandforce design does, so there isn't a reason for it
to run quite as hot.

And "hot" is when you burn yourself. When you cannot hold
your finger on electronics for more than 2 seconds, that's
about 60-65C or so. I used to work with boards of ECL logic,
and the entire surface of a running design can be that hot.
(There's no place to lay your scope probe hand.)
But the chips on those could take a lot more heat, more than
CMOS, and as most practitioners would note, those "only
start to work well when they get hot". Whereas the CMOS
everything is made of now, is not the same. The IC packages
have changed too, and fewer ceramic packages are used, and
more plastic for the smaller ones (like the flash) are used.
If you don't have a spec sheet, a temp of 99C is a good upper
limit for modern electronics (the "organic" packaging starts
to degrade above that temp, whereas the silicon can suffer
over a period of time if the temp is 135C junction - parametric
shift). And those kinds of temperatures will raise a blister
for sure. That's the boiling point of water+.

Some SSD housings have thermal tape between the tops
of the IC packages and the metal casing, to enhance
heat transfer. Which is a bit strange when the power
dissipation is in the 2.5W range. Usually companies
try to save money, and let the chips run hotter. (You
see this on TV tuner dongles perhaps, in USB stick format,
an absence of caring about chip temps.)

Paul
  #6  
Old January 14th 19, 02:23 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,508
Default Do SSDs get hot on failure?

In article , Paul
wrote:

A Samsung probably doesn't use data compression like
the Sandforce design does, so there isn't a reason for it
to run quite as hot.


that isn't going to make a difference.
  #7  
Old January 14th 19, 02:55 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,181
Default Do SSDs get hot on failure?

nospam wrote:
In article , Paul
wrote:

A Samsung probably doesn't use data compression like
the Sandforce design does, so there isn't a reason for it
to run quite as hot.


that isn't going to make a difference.


Uh yes, yes it does.

Paul

  #8  
Old January 14th 19, 03:06 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,508
Default Do SSDs get hot on failure?

In article , Paul
wrote:

A Samsung probably doesn't use data compression like
the Sandforce design does, so there isn't a reason for it
to run quite as hot.


that isn't going to make a difference.


Uh yes, yes it does.


no, it does not.

heat is a function of total power consumption, not a particular feature.
  #9  
Old January 14th 19, 04:14 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,181
Default Do SSDs get hot on failure?

Peter Jason wrote:
I have isolated an SSD because it was very hot to
the touch (others are barely warm) and this has
fixed recurrent "scan/repair disks" flags in the
RHD notifications screen. Is this characteristic
of failing SSDs?


You can see some discussion here about various
kinds of flaws that could happen inside an SSD.
And at least one poster here is suggesting various
checks for shorted caps and the presence of successful
power conversion inside. (For example, a "buck converter"
is one of the power conversion components inside. A buck
converter converts a higher DC voltage to a lower
DC voltage, when such a voltage is not available on
the main power connector.)

https://forum.hddguru.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=36439

And "depops" on a circuit board is normal. On some
of the earlier SSDs, there was an option to have
a SuperCap for power during emergency shutdown, and
the SuperCap and associated regulator are removed
for the consumer drive version of the SSD. So those
pads wouldn't have caps or resistors or... whatever.

One thing that's interesting on the drive, is it
has what looks like a Polyfuse. That's a polycrystalline
fuse that opens when the current flow is too high,
and cools off and recrystallizes when the current
flow goes back into spec. So rather than that
particular drive "burning to a crisp", instead
the fuse opens and the drive stops sucking power.
And of course, when the fuse opens, the drive no longer
responds on the SATA data connector.

But if you wanted to open a drive, the very first step is
to find a picture of one of your drives disassembled.
If the drive has thermal tape, then you don't want to
open it "for fun". That is, unless you happen to have
a roll of thermal tape, to put the cooling solution
back in place during reassembly. If the product didn't
use thermal tape, and, you no longer cared about the
warranty, you could remove the screws and look inside.

Thermal tape isn't necessarily destructive, but you
could perhaps bend the cover on the SSD while trying
to disassemble it. Some thermal tapes hold well enough,
to keep a 50 gram aluminum heatsink in place, without screws.

Paul
  #10  
Old January 14th 19, 04:42 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,181
Default Do SSDs get hot on failure?

Paul wrote:
Peter Jason wrote:
I have isolated an SSD because it was very hot to
the touch (others are barely warm) and this has
fixed recurrent "scan/repair disks" flags in the
RHD notifications screen. Is this characteristic
of failing SSDs?


You can see some discussion here about various
kinds of flaws that could happen inside an SSD.


And there is variation between products, on idle power.
The column on the left has "Power Consumption" and
"Active Idle Power", and as you'd expect, the Optane
is near the top of the list. You could check and
see if your model happens to be in the list.

https://www.anandtech.com/bench/SSD18/2424

Paul
  #11  
Old January 14th 19, 05:37 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Peter Jason
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,024
Default Do SSDs get hot on failure?

On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 22:42:26 -0500, Paul
wrote:

Paul wrote:
Peter Jason wrote:
I have isolated an SSD because it was very hot to
the touch (others are barely warm) and this has
fixed recurrent "scan/repair disks" flags in the
RHD notifications screen. Is this characteristic
of failing SSDs?


You can see some discussion here about various
kinds of flaws that could happen inside an SSD.


And there is variation between products, on idle power.
The column on the left has "Power Consumption" and
"Active Idle Power", and as you'd expect, the Optane
is near the top of the list. You could check and
see if your model happens to be in the list.

https://www.anandtech.com/bench/SSD18/2424

Paul


Thanks Paul. For Samsung there seems to be a
super SSD (for nearly double the price) supposedly
delivering twice the life.
https://postimg.cc/0Mcs4Z4S
I'll propbably get these in future.
  #12  
Old January 14th 19, 06:01 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Big Bad Bob
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Posts: 759
Default Do SSDs get hot on failure?

On 01/13/19 12:49, Peter Jason wrote:
I have isolated an SSD because it was very hot to
the touch (others are barely warm) and this has
fixed recurrent "scan/repair disks" flags in the
RHD notifications screen. Is this characteristic
of failing SSDs?


well, if it's got an electrical problem causing overheat, then it could
be *ONE* sign of a failing SSD


--
(aka 'Bombastic Bob' in case you wondered)

'Feeling with my fingers, and thinking with my brain' - me

'your story is so touching, but it sounds just like a lie'
"Straighten up and fly right"
  #13  
Old Yesterday, 06:51 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Yousuf Khan[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,222
Default Do SSDs get hot on failure?

On 1/13/2019 3:49 PM, Peter Jason wrote:
I have isolated an SSD because it was very hot to
the touch (others are barely warm) and this has
fixed recurrent "scan/repair disks" flags in the
RHD notifications screen. Is this characteristic
of failing SSDs?


I just RMA'ed a drive that was going well over 50C. The replacement
drive is very steady at 40C.
 




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