What else do you do when setting up a new Win10 desktop from scratch?

Arlen Holder wrote:
On 24 Jun 2018 20:56:52 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

Microsoft implies that SR doesn't touch user data. They lie. They *do*
touch parts of user data and will - for example - have no quibble in
fscking a database, because they think they know what (not) to restore.
BTDT got the T-shirt. More on this below.

Your advice, Frank Slootweg, is good advice, and born of experience.
I agree with you.

To partially protect myself from that, and for other more direct reasons,
I never store anything in "default" folders (simply because they get
polluted beyond belief), so while Microsoft *can* find my files, none are
going to be in the standard places.

All the files I care about are in:
C:\tmp (stuff I'm working on now)
C:\data (all my data files)
C:\apps (the installation hierarchy)
C:\software (the archive of installers)

That's pretty much it.

As Paul also mentioned, using non-default/non-standard folders only
*increases* the risk that System Restore will clobber up some files
which it shouldn't.

See also my response to Paul for more examples of where SR bit me in
the bum.

If you want to experiment:

- Make a restore point.
- After making the RP, put a new .exe file in any of your above
mentioned folders, for example \apps or \software. Do *nothing* else.
- Restore the RP.

Now you most likely will find that SR happily removed your .exe file,
because 'System Restore Knows Best (tm)'.

Bottom line: Only use SR if you have absolutely no other option and
then accept and be prepared for SR to silently clobber things which
might bite you (much) later.

On 25 Jun 2018 13:02:24 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

As Paul also mentioned, using non-default/non-standard folders only
*increases* the risk that System Restore will clobber up some files
which it shouldn't.

Hi Frank,

You bring up good points, where I just made this shot for you just now...

Strategy and tactics of a well-organized software hierarchy:
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_menu0.jpg

You (and Paul) perhaps bring up a good point, except, the reason for the
non-default folders is inherently completely different than the reason for
using a restore point.

So they're completely independent decisions, which only intertwine in the
admittedly rare cases where a system restore is required.

Bearing in mind that most people, I think, try to backup/restore the
*entire* clone of their hard drive, while I never care about the software
but only about the data, I doubt this minor issue will ever become a
stumbling block, in my model.

For me, the entire system is worthless - the only thing that matters is the
data (i.e., C:\data) since *everything else is merely a support system for
the data.

Specifically, the entire operating system infrastructure is throw away, as
are all the installed programs, since I very carefully maintain pristine
ISOs for both the OS and for the software installer files (most of which -
and in fact - almost all of which - are freeware nowadays).

Hence, if there is a propensity for system restore to affect non-default
folders, it still wouldn't matter, as in my system, C:\data is the only
non-renewable resource.

See also my response to Paul for more examples of where SR bit me in
the bum.

You have far more experience with System Restore than I do, as I explained
prior that it worked for me, perhaps two or three times in my life, where
that was always on XP - and where on Win10, it has never yet been useful
(nor has it worked when either Microsoft or I bricked the system).

If you want to experiment:

- Make a restore point.
- After making the RP, put a new .exe file in any of your above
mentioned folders, for example \apps or \software. Do *nothing* else.
- Restore the RP.

Bear in mind, "exe" files are meaningless. I realize most people scream and
cry when they lose their installation infrastructure, or their OS
infrastructure, but - as explained above - the OS and installation
infrastructure is readily reproduced.

In my C:\software hierarchy is an installer in the *exact* same
hierarchical tree as where they will end up in my C:\app hierarchy (and my
menu hierarchy is the same also).

In that C:\software hierarchy, for *every* installer, is a readme file,
which is a hand-written log file of my combined experiences with that
installer.

Here is simply one snapshot showing that for, oh, say, my Tor Browser
Bundle installation location that I just made for you, explaining...

Strategy and tactics of a well-organized software hierarchy:
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_menu0.jpg

Now you most likely will find that SR happily removed your .exe file,
because 'System Restore Knows Best (tm)'.

I understand your point, but luckily I don't have the same problem most
people seem to have, which is that most people are worried about their
software installation whereas for me, that's not even the slightest bit of
a problem for me.

Hence, when I back things up, I only need to back up C:\data since nothing
else is important (bearing in mind that the C:\software is far more static,
and that it's mostly freeware (actually almost exclusively) nowadays).

Bottom line: Only use SR if you have absolutely no other option and
then accept and be prepared for SR to silently clobber things which
might bite you (much) later.

I agree with the bottom line, where my philosophy is to simply make a
manual restore point via the command line whenever I feel like it.
wmic.exe /Namespace:\\root\default Path SystemRestore Call
CreateRestorePoint "%DATE%_my_manual_system_restore_pt", 100, 7

On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 10:03:46 -0400, Wolf K wrote:

Should be on another partition or drive. Not on the System partition.

Hi Wolf K.,

I just made this screenshot for you & others to learn from my experience:
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_programfiles.jpg

Notice my extensive experiments show extremely few programs will not
install where they belong (i.e., where I want them to go).

Even as I have far more experience with installing programs where they
belong (see the lessons in that screenshot, for example), I do appreciate
that your tone in this post is purposefully helpful.

Hence, I thank you very much for your purposefully helpful note, where
you're attempting to "add value" (although, of course, I already know what
you suggested - but you don't know that I know this - and more importantly,
others might not know what you're suggesting - so we should all take your
purposefully helpful advice with the "thought in mind" being what counts).

Your C:/apps is at best a duplicate of C:/Programs, but because of the
vagaries of Installers, there's no guarantee of that. Frank's note
explains why.

I appreciate that you're being purposefully helpful, not only to me, but
for anyone else who wishes to reproduce a well-designed software
installation hierarchy, as I have been honing for decades.

However, I'm not sure why you think C:\apps is a duplicate of C:\Programs
as there are *multiple" C:\Programs* hierarchies, as you're well aware...
* C:\Program Files
* C:\Program Files (x86)
Where, you may note that I make extensive use of menu systems
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_menu0.jpg
Where, you may note, the *organization* is by *task* and not by *brand*.

In C:\Program Files & C:\Program Files (x86), you have the horrid problem
of having to navigate a morass of filth based on extremely different
organizational methods, where some are organized by brand, others by bits,
still others by tasks, and still others by commonality.

What a royal *mess* are the various "Program Files" hierarchies!

Luckily, as this screenshot I made for you just now shows, out of the
scores of programs I've installed, only one, Belarc Advisor, is so badly
written that it doesn't even ask where to install it.

My point is that my vast experience installing software is that almost all
programs *ask* where you want to install them, and, in my experience, only
one out of fifty (or about 2%) of the programs we often use (since I only
use the best of the best freeware) utililzes a badly written installer that
forces itself into the always-to-be-avoided morass of the Program Files
hierarchies.

There's some technical "added value" for you, Arlen.

While I don't think suggesting that I use a different partition for
installed programs is "new" information to me, or to many others here, nor
can it ever be assumed that I haven't greatly thought about and
experimented vastly with installing programs where they belong, I do very
much appreciate the helpful tone and intent, which is, after all the start
of how someone provides value.

By way of contrast, people like nospam *never* have any helpful intent, nor
Snit, nor Nil, nor Diesel, etc., so they can't even *approach* the much
harder task of adding value, as you're attempting to do faithfully here.

For that approach, if not the information itself, I thank you, on behalf of
everyone here who is in this to help each other, and not just for their
amusement.

I've had no problems with storing data (only) on separate partitions,
which System Restore ignores. I check Documents etc from time to time to
make sure there's nothing there I want to keep.

This is good and helpful information.
My main problem with Microsoft default hierarchies is that they get
"polluted" with data that I didn't put there.

I used to clean them up, but it's like trying to clean up a sewer
sometimes.

It's easier to just put a fence around the cesspool that Microsoft creates,
and then everything outside the Microsoft cesspool is so much easier to
manage.

Plus, since I still use DVDs for backup, keeping crap out of my hierarchies
helps keep the file system below the 4.3GB practical limits.

System and applications can always be restored or reinstalled one way or
another, but lost data is sometimes gone forever.

Agreed.
1. The Operating System is expendable (keep iso files)
2. The installed programs and their setup is expendable (keep log files)
3. It's only the data that is not expendable.

Thank you, Wolf K., for being purposefully helpful in this post, where
others may benefit, now and in the future, from your largesse.

--
PS: If you continue being purposefully helpful, I'll stop chastising you.

On 25 Jun 2018 13:02:24 GMT, Frank Slootweg
wrote:

Bottom line: Only use SR if you have absolutely no other option and
then accept and be prepared for SR to silently clobber things which
might bite you (much) later.

Remember my complaint that SR is opaque, not telling you in advance what
changes it's going to make? Well, you bring up an equally valid point in
that after a Restore Point has been applied SR makes no effort to tell
you what has been changed. MS has two opportunities to be transparent,
and they punt both times.

On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 14:48:42 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

I just made this screenshot for you & others to learn from my experience:
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_programfiles.jpg

Erratum:

Regarding:
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_programfiles.jpg

In my haste to illustrate the point to Wolf K. that something like 98% of
installers are well behaved, I forgot to annotate that screenshot
mentioning that both TurboTax and gVIM left remnants of their installation
process in the Program Files morass, but, in *both cases*, the remnants
were simply empty folder trees, unused, unneeded, and indicative of badly
written installers that didn't clean up after themselves when the programs
were actually installed elsewhere.

Only Belarc Advisor was so badly written that it didn't give the user the
choice of where you wanted to put it.

In the olden days, we used ChangeOfAddress (COA) extensively, but in my
experience, only about 2% of the programs out there are as badly written as
Belarc Advisor is.

I'm sure I could delete the empty TurboTax and gVIM folder trees, but I
only noticed them now as there is *never* any good reason to be mucking
around in the Microsoft-designed cesspool that is the Program Files'
hierarchies (IMHO).

On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 15:14:00 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

I'm sure I could delete the empty TurboTax and gVIM folder trees, but I
only noticed them now as there is *never* any good reason to be mucking
around in the Microsoft-designed cesspool that is the Program Files'
hierarchies (IMHO).

Double errata!

In the interest of accuracy, I just compared the Program Files' morass with
a brand new Windows 10 installation and realized, belatedly, that the
OpenVPN installer is also half dumb (just like the iTunes installer is) in
that the main software goes where it belongs, but the dumb installer adds
ancillary programs that the poorly written installer doesn't ask where to
put.

In this case, the OpenVPN main files went where they belonged, but the
OpenVPN-related TAP files went into the morass that is the
Microsoft-provided Program Files' cesspool and septic tank pair.

Hence, here's an updated screenshot for the tribal knowledge archives:
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_programfiles11.jpg

On 06/23/2018 09:28 AM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On Sat, 23 Jun 2018 06:32:23 -0400, Big Al wrote:

Setup 'file open with' associations

Good catch!
snip

I have one folder that has all sorts of files that I wish to adjust. I
can and do change the open and sometimes the edit properties as well as
occasionally the icon. i.e. PNG is wish to open with a simple image
viewer, but I wish to edit for Photoshop or Gimp.

Filetype manager is good and Default program editor.
http://defaultprogramseditor.com/
The latter has the ability to modify the edit and open options of the
right click menu as well as change icon and export the registry tweak.

The registry tweak is a nice touch.

Have fun.

Char Jackson wrote:
On 25 Jun 2018 13:02:24 GMT, Frank Slootweg
wrote:

Bottom line: Only use SR if you have absolutely no other option and
then accept and be prepared for SR to silently clobber things which
might bite you (much) later.

Remember my complaint that SR is opaque, not telling you in advance what
changes it's going to make? Well, you bring up an equally valid point in
that after a Restore Point has been applied SR makes no effort to tell
you what has been changed. MS has two opportunities to be transparent,
and they punt both times.


https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/...dows-10-a.html

https://www.tenforums.com/attachment..._restore-5.png

https://www.tenforums.com/attachment..._restore-6.png

That's an example of a System Restore implementation that's
attempting to show what it is changing.

They can do that, because the scope and design has changed
since WinXP days.

Paul

Paul wrote:
Char Jackson wrote:
On 25 Jun 2018 13:02:24 GMT, Frank Slootweg
wrote:

Bottom line: Only use SR if you have absolutely no other option and
then accept and be prepared for SR to silently clobber things which
might bite you (much) later.

Remember my complaint that SR is opaque, not telling you in advance what
changes it's going to make? Well, you bring up an equally valid point in
that after a Restore Point has been applied SR makes no effort to tell
you what has been changed. MS has two opportunities to be transparent,
and they punt both times.

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/...dows-10-a.html

https://www.tenforums.com/attachment..._restore-5.png

https://www.tenforums.com/attachment..._restore-6.png

That's an example of a System Restore implementation that's
attempting to show what it is changing.

They can do that, because the scope and design has changed
since WinXP days.

That's better than nothing, but it's still way too little detail,
because the windows only say "Programs and drivers that will be deleted"
and "Programs and drivers that might be restored".

As I mentioned, System Restore clobbers things on a *file* level, A
'Program' and a 'Driver' are each many.many files.

So the question remains, which *files* do get deleted/restored and
which *files* do not get deleted/restored?

Also the 'enhanced' System Restore does not give you the option to
delete/restore some of the listed 'Programs and drivers' and to not
delete/restore others.

Bottom line: SR is broken-by-design and you can not 'fix' it without
redesigning it from scratch.

Arlen Holder wrote:
On 25 Jun 2018 13:02:24 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
[...]

If you want to experiment:

- Make a restore point.
- After making the RP, put a new .exe file in any of your above
mentioned folders, for example \apps or \software. Do *nothing* else.
- Restore the RP.

Bear in mind, "exe" files are meaningless. I realize most people scream and
cry when they lose their installation infrastructure, or their OS
infrastructure, but - as explained above - the OS and installation
infrastructure is readily reproduced.

Clarification:

I used an .exe file in your \apps or \software folders, because those
are used for:

quote

C:\tmp (stuff I'm working on now)
C:\data (all my data files)
C:\apps (the installation hierarchy)
C:\software (the archive of installers)

/quote

Installers often are .exe files. So - as I explained in my response to
Paul - you might have a new installation package - i.e. an .exe file -
in your above mentioned folders, for some reason you do a SR, all seems
hunky dorey, but maybe days/weeks/months/years later you want to re-use
the installation package, only to find out that it's not there, because
SR silently (i.e. without telling you) removed it. And it won't be on
any backup either, unless you made a backup before the SR.

See how dangerous SR is? The silently deleted files might be easily
replaced or they might be unreplaceable. Would you put your chances of
which is which in SR's hands? I don't.

[...]

Paul wrote:
Char Jackson wrote:
On Sat, 23 Jun 2018 17:47:55 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Jun 2018 14:44:24 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

I have one question about whether the disabling of autostart on Windows
updates is the same action as disabling autostart on crashes?
Here is a shot of how to disable autostart upon updates:
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_reboot_task.jpg

I'm not sure if that's the same as disabling autostart on crashes that Char
Jackson kindly suggests above?

Is it?

No, that's different.

If you go to System Properties, select the Advanced tab, there will be 3
sections there. The third section is titled "Startup and Recovery", with
a Settings button. Click Settings, then on the next screen find the
"System failure" section. The second option there should be
"Automatically restart", and it's checked by default.

With that option enabled, a system crash causes the PC to restart. To
see what the problem was, you have to go looking in Event Viewer, as one
option. By disabling that option, the system will normally halt on the
BSoD so that you can a) clearly see that there was a critical system
issue, and b) you can see what the primary offender supposedly was.

Should *you* disable that option? I don't know. I'm just saying it's
something that I do because if there's a crash, I want it to be in my
face so that I can track down the cause and fix it.


The modern BSOD screen isn't all that useful.

I really don't like the friendly OSes' screens these days. I still like
seeing those technical stuff. I wished they would give options to keep
those on.
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On Sat, 23 Jun 2018 14:44:24 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Jun 2018 07:38:02 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:

Disable UAC.

This is part of the above-mentioned note, where globally disabling UAC is
problematic,

I've had UAC disabled on every OS that offers it, since forever. In what
way should I expect it to become problematic? What issues have you seen
or heard of?

On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 20:14:47 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

*THANK YOU for that wonderfully hopeful suggestion of FileTypesManager!*
(it solved 3/4 of the PNG context menu problems in the first pass!)

Ooooooops. I had meant:
*THANK YOU for that wonderfully suggestion of Default Programs Manager!*

My goal was:
a. When I doubleclick on a PNG, I want Irfanview to come up.
b. When I right click, I want a choice of Irfanview or Paint.NET.
c. When I select more than one & right click, I want all to open up.
d. When I right click, I don't want to see Microsoft crap suggestions.

In the very first pass, your suggested "Default Programs Editor" solved the
first three of those four needs!
1. When I doubleclick on a PNG, it comes up fast in IrfanView.
2. When I right click and select "Edit", it comes up in Paint.NET.
3. When I do that for multiple selected files, all come up in Paint.NET.
4. All I have to solve now is to delete the Microsoft crap suggestions.
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_openwith01.jpg
================================================== ==========================
I start the Default Programs Editor using the Win10 Cascade Menu:
Start menu os util Default Programs Editor.lnk

Which settings would you like to edit?
a. File Type Settings
b. Autoplay Settings
c. Default Programs Settings
d. Create or restore a backup of registry settings

I choose "File Type Settings", which asks:
Which file type setting would you like to edit?
a. Context Menu
b. Icon
c. Description
d. Change 'Open with' programs
e. Change an extension's file type
f. Delete an extension

I hit "Change 'Open with' programs.
I search for PNG and hit return.
Up pops the "Program, Scope" menu, showing4 lines:
1. Program = IrfanView 64-bit, Scope = .png files
2. Program = Paint, Scope = image files
3. Program = paint.net, Scope = .png files
4. Program = Photo Gallery Viewer, Scope = .png files

I select "Paint" and hit the Delete button.
I select "Photo Gallery Viewer" and hit the Delete button.

I then hit "Save Open With List" OK Close

Drat. When I right click on a PNG, I still have the same Microsoft crap:
-------------
a. IrfanView 64-bit
b. Paint 3D
c. paint.net
d. Photos
e. SketchBook
-------------
f. Search the Store
g. Choose another app
-------------
================================================== ==========================
Maybe I need to log out and back in?
I rebooted. Nothing changed.
Drat.
================================================== ==========================
Do you know how to change the PNG right click context menu from:
-------------
a. IrfanView 64-bit
b. Paint 3D
c. paint.net
d. Photos
e. SketchBook
-------------
f. Search the Store
g. Choose another app
-------------

To:
-------------
a. IrfanView 64-bit
b. paint.net
-------------
c. Choose another app
-------------
================================================== ==========================

Ant wrote:
Paul wrote:

The modern BSOD screen isn't all that useful.

I really don't like the friendly OSes' screens these days. I still like
seeing those technical stuff. I wished they would give options to keep
those on.

The absolute worst cases happen in Windows 10,
when there is a BSOD, and the screen remains
completely black. No smiley face, no nothing.

Those are hard to debug.

I was only seeing those during the Win10 preview.

The old BSOD screen (WinXP era) was "more reliable"
and wasn't relying on the sanity of the desktop to work.
You could still have video card crashes without
a lot of details to work with. At least the
display tries to do restarts or recovery now.

Paul

On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 15:37:45 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:

This is part of the above-mentioned note, where globally disabling UAC is
problematic,

I've had UAC disabled on every OS that offers it, since forever. In what
way should I expect it to become problematic? What issues have you seen
or heard of?

I don't disagree with your sentiment.
In fact, at the moment, I have UAC globally disabled also.

It's the only way, at the moment, I can easily open any set of any of the
six thousand VPN config files that I have on my system at the moment.

But what I want is to disable UAC per file type, such as ovpn files, where
there is little chance of malware infesting me via an OVPN file.

So, we agree that it's not a big deal to disable UAC globally; but I'm
working on the finesse of disabling UAC just for OVPN files.

That isn't as easy as you might think - but I've been doing lots of things
where I have a few tricks up my sleeve to test out before reporting back
success on that endeavor.

So problematic was perhaps not as good a word as "finesse" would have been.