Build 10031

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 18:04:54 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 19:53:20 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 12:19:13 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 13:03:48 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

I don't use Restore Points, and in fact that's one of the very first
features I disable on each of my personal systems, but I didn't know
that rolling back to a previous RP would also clean up the filesystem.
I'm very surprised to hear that, and if it's true, it makes me extremely
happy to know that this feature is disabled.

At the time I was busy cleaning up the remnants off my hard drive that was
eating up a lot of space. Unfortuanely, one particular remnant directory
was also tied to VS. VS wouldn't load any projects. So I resorted to the
restore point. Problem solved. All you have to do is make a restore
point once a week and you won't have any problems.

Regarding that last sentence, I'm sorry but I don't believe that for a
second.

Then you apparently just don't do much system cleaning then.

No, that's not the problem with that statement. The problem is that you're
saying that if everyone made a restore point once a week then no one would
have any problems. Restore points don't prevent problems, as you surely must
know. In the best case, they might fix an issue, but you never know what
else they might 'fix' at the same time. Restore points aren't able to read
your mind. Instead, they just change everything they think they should
change, all at once. In anything less than the best case, they make one or
more changes to your system without fixing the issue you're currently
interested in, so you're left wondering what got changed while knowing that
the thing that was surely broken is still broken. It's sort of a lose-lose.

I'd say "In anything less than the best case, they make one or more
changes to your system without fixing the issue you're currently
interested in" is quite an exaggeration...

How about "in some of the worst cases" as a more moderate - and IMO
*much* more accurate - qualifier?

I've never experienced the extreme of which you write.

I re-read my text and compared it to yours, and I think I have to stay with
mine. Aren't there really only two possible outcomes when you roll back to a
previous restore point? Either your issue is resolved, or it isn't. Either
way, the user has no idea what else was changed in the process. I don't see
a gray area in between "my issue was resolved" and "my issue wasn't
resolved", and in both of those cases there can be other things that got
changed that you may not even see until later because you're focused on the
thing you were trying to resolve.

Am I looking at it wrong?

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 20:32:14 -0700, T wrote:

On 03/14/2015 06:05 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 17:37:36 -0700, T wrote:

On 03/14/2015 02:26 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 10:56:32 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:

I'm not sure what problem you might be referring to, but the way I see it
replacing a battery is something you might possibly do every few years, if
that, so as long as it's replaceable I don't care if it's a snap-on panel or
if a few screws are involved. Truth be told, I'd almost be willing to bet
that most people NEVER replace a laptop battery. I never have, on any of my
personal laptops.

My old laptop battery holds its charge for only an hour or two, which is
enough for the few things I do with it untethered, so I just leave it
plugged in most of the time.

Instead of doing that, I would have replaced the battery, but then I
priced it online. IMO, it would cost more than the computer is worth.


Hi Gene,

A few of my customers will replace theirs, but most have
the same reaction you had to the price.

So what's the problem with removing a few screws? At least it's field
replaceable.



Every two weeks !?!?!? What a pain in the neck! That is why I had her
(grown) son just remove the stinker.

If they had/have to remove the battery every two weeks, something is
seriously wrong and I'm disappointed to hear that your solution was to have
them pull the battery. That did them an awful disservice, IMO.

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 20:52:12 -0700, T wrote:

On 03/14/2015 06:00 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 14:28:28 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 19:33:27 -0700, T wrote:

It BAFFLES me how you have not been caught up in a single
one of them. You must be the luckiest technician to
walk the earth! I hold my breath.

I guess I'm another lucky one.

Still breathing, too.

Great. Now he's going to be doubly baffled and he may feel that he needs to
hold his breath for himself plus the two of us. That could lead to a red
face, or worse.


Char,

Did you even go to the web site I gave you with all
the botched updates?

Of course not. I'm already aware that a statistically insignificant number
of people experience issues after applying certain updates. I'm able to
accept that without freaking out, especially without freaking out in front
of customers, because I took Statistics in college (and did quite well). ;-)

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 23:01:05 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 12:19:13 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 13:03:48 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

I don't use Restore Points, and in fact that's one of the very first
features I disable on each of my personal systems, but I didn't know
that rolling back to a previous RP would also clean up the filesystem.
I'm very surprised to hear that, and if it's true, it makes me
extremely happy to know that this feature is disabled.

At the time I was busy cleaning up the remnants off my hard drive that
was
eating up a lot of space. Unfortuanely, one particular remnant
directory
was also tied to VS. VS wouldn't load any projects. So I resorted to
the
restore point. Problem solved. All you have to do is make a restore
point once a week and you won't have any problems.

Regarding that last sentence, I'm sorry but I don't believe that for a
second.

Then you apparently just don't do much system cleaning then.

No, that's not the problem with that statement. The problem is that you're
saying that if everyone made a restore point once a week then no one would
have any problems. Restore points don't prevent problems, as you surely
must know. In the best case, they might fix an issue, but you never know
what else they might 'fix' at the same time. Restore points aren't able to
read your mind. Instead, they just change everything they think they
should change, all at once. In anything less than the best case, they make
one or more changes to your system without fixing the issue you're
currently interested in, so you're left wondering what got changed while
knowing that the thing that was surely broken is still broken. It's sort
of a lose-lose.

No, it is a win-win situation... you are rolling your entire system to an
earlier date before a bad situation strikes.

And that's exactly my point. That's precisely the reason why I don't use
System Restore and simply disable it entirely. As you said, you're rolling
your *entire system* back to an earlier date. You're not just rolling one
application or one system-level change back, you're rolling the entire
system back. To me, that's completely unacceptable.

To me, the concept would become usable if there was an Advanced button in SR
that would let you explore the various changes and select the one(s) that
you want. But rolling the entire system back in one fell swoop is more than
I'm willing to allow, whether it's one of my personal systems or a system
belonging to someone else.

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 23:04:02 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:

T wrote:

On 03/14/2015 05:53 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 12:19:13 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 13:03:48 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

I don't use Restore Points, and in fact that's one of the very first
features I disable on each of my personal systems, but I didn't know
that rolling back to a previous RP would also clean up the
filesystem. I'm very surprised to hear that, and if it's true, it
makes me extremely happy to know that this feature is disabled.

At the time I was busy cleaning up the remnants off my hard drive that
was
eating up a lot of space. Unfortuanely, one particular remnant
directory
was also tied to VS. VS wouldn't load any projects. So I resorted to
the
restore point. Problem solved. All you have to do is make a restore
point once a week and you won't have any problems.

Regarding that last sentence, I'm sorry but I don't believe that for a
second.

Then you apparently just don't do much system cleaning then.

No, that's not the problem with that statement. The problem is that
you're saying that if everyone made a restore point once a week then no
one would have any problems. Restore points don't prevent problems, as
you surely must know. In the best case, they might fix an issue, but you
never know what else they might 'fix' at the same time. Restore points
aren't able to read your mind. Instead, they just change everything they
think they should change, all at once. In anything less than the best
case, they make one or more changes to your system without fixing the
issue you're currently interested in, so you're left wondering what got
changed while knowing that the thing that was surely broken is still
broken. It's sort of a lose-lose.


Hi Char,

I think he knows that.

I too prefer to just fix the problem, rather than rolling back.
But, it is a nice tool if all else fails.

When you delete a system file, there is only one real solution... the RP.

Except for the other solutions. ;-)

How about undeleting the file from within Windows? Or undeleting the file
outside of Windows? How about pulling a fresh copy out of the filestore? Or
pulling a copy from another system? How about not deleting system files in
the first place?

It does restore the file that was deleted. I used RP to restore this system
after trying out the latest IE browser. I didn't like it at all, so I used
RP and everything was back to normal.

What you call normal I call an unknown state. I would have no idea what else
got rolled back by doing the restore, and I submit that you don't really
know either. I can't hand a system back to a customer that way, and I'm also
not comfortable doing that to any of my own systems.

Char Jackson wrote:

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 23:01:05 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 12:19:13 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 13:03:48 -0600, GreyCloud
wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

I don't use Restore Points, and in fact that's one of the very first
features I disable on each of my personal systems, but I didn't know
that rolling back to a previous RP would also clean up the
filesystem. I'm very surprised to hear that, and if it's true, it
makes me extremely happy to know that this feature is disabled.

At the time I was busy cleaning up the remnants off my hard drive that
was
eating up a lot of space. Unfortuanely, one particular remnant
directory
was also tied to VS. VS wouldn't load any projects. So I resorted to
the
restore point. Problem solved. All you have to do is make a restore
point once a week and you won't have any problems.

Regarding that last sentence, I'm sorry but I don't believe that for a
second.

Then you apparently just don't do much system cleaning then.

No, that's not the problem with that statement. The problem is that
you're saying that if everyone made a restore point once a week then no
one would have any problems. Restore points don't prevent problems, as
you surely must know. In the best case, they might fix an issue, but you
never know what else they might 'fix' at the same time. Restore points
aren't able to read your mind. Instead, they just change everything they
think they should change, all at once. In anything less than the best
case, they make one or more changes to your system without fixing the
issue you're currently interested in, so you're left wondering what got
changed while knowing that the thing that was surely broken is still
broken. It's sort of a lose-lose.

No, it is a win-win situation... you are rolling your entire system to an
earlier date before a bad situation strikes.

And that's exactly my point. That's precisely the reason why I don't use
System Restore and simply disable it entirely. As you said, you're rolling
your *entire system* back to an earlier date. You're not just rolling one
application or one system-level change back, you're rolling the entire
system back. To me, that's completely unacceptable.


Not for me. It was easy to go back and do the windows update, which updates
all MS products I believe. At least it does for VS.

To me, the concept would become usable if there was an Advanced button in
SR that would let you explore the various changes and select the one(s)
that you want. But rolling the entire system back in one fell swoop is
more than I'm willing to allow, whether it's one of my personal systems or
a system belonging to someone else.

To each their own.
It hasn't failed me yet.

Char Jackson wrote:

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 23:04:02 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:

T wrote:

On 03/14/2015 05:53 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 12:19:13 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 13:03:48 -0600, GreyCloud
wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

I don't use Restore Points, and in fact that's one of the very
first features I disable on each of my personal systems, but I
didn't know that rolling back to a previous RP would also clean up
the filesystem. I'm very surprised to hear that, and if it's true,
it makes me extremely happy to know that this feature is disabled.

At the time I was busy cleaning up the remnants off my hard drive
that was
eating up a lot of space. Unfortuanely, one particular remnant
directory
was also tied to VS. VS wouldn't load any projects. So I resorted
to the
restore point. Problem solved. All you have to do is make a
restore point once a week and you won't have any problems.

Regarding that last sentence, I'm sorry but I don't believe that for
a second.

Then you apparently just don't do much system cleaning then.

No, that's not the problem with that statement. The problem is that
you're saying that if everyone made a restore point once a week then no
one would have any problems. Restore points don't prevent problems, as
you surely must know. In the best case, they might fix an issue, but
you never know what else they might 'fix' at the same time. Restore
points aren't able to read your mind. Instead, they just change
everything they think they should change, all at once. In anything less
than the best case, they make one or more changes to your system
without fixing the issue you're currently interested in, so you're left
wondering what got changed while knowing that the thing that was surely
broken is still broken. It's sort of a lose-lose.


Hi Char,

I think he knows that.

I too prefer to just fix the problem, rather than rolling back.
But, it is a nice tool if all else fails.

When you delete a system file, there is only one real solution... the RP.

Except for the other solutions. ;-)

How about undeleting the file from within Windows? Or undeleting the file
outside of Windows? How about pulling a fresh copy out of the filestore?
Or pulling a copy from another system? How about not deleting system files
in the first place?


Harder to do from my viewpoint.
One mistake and your sol.

It does restore the file that was deleted. I used RP to restore this
system
after trying out the latest IE browser. I didn't like it at all, so I
used RP and everything was back to normal.

What you call normal I call an unknown state. I would have no idea what
else got rolled back by doing the restore, and I submit that you don't
really know either. I can't hand a system back to a customer that way, and
I'm also not comfortable doing that to any of my own systems.

Everything gets rolled back to a previous date when you know that the system
was working properly. After the roll back, then do a Windows update.
Your system is now in the state that it should be in. It won't mess with
3rd party software, unless that is what got hosed. Usually, a
reinstallation of the 3rd party app is in order... but I'm talking about the
system itself.

T wrote:

On 03/14/2015 11:25 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
T wrote:

On 03/13/2015 12:07 PM, GreyCloud wrote:

Very little crime here in the Kootenai tribal area. It's usually just
drunk
problems more than anything else. Our local college has a computer
science
class and they use RedHat Linux for their os to teach with. It's a lot
cheaper and it does learn them the basics.

Hi Grey Cloud,

I read your tribe's history and read the Wikipedia artile on your
tribe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ktunaxa

Only 67 of you left?! My heart breaks.

It is fewer than that now. Most have just left and given up.
Absorbed by the borg.

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 20:35:26 -0700, T wrote:

On 03/14/2015 06:25 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 17:46:16 -0700, T wrote:

Those panels are not easy for older hands to remove. And those
screws are really small and can get lost in the carpet really
easy.

I always disassemble notebooks in a very large, shallow baking pan. If you drop
a part such as a screw or break a plastic tab, it always ends up in the pan.
Makes the process much simpler.


Hi Stormin',

Impressive. I love it!

I go searching through the carpet with a magnetic screwdriver.
I wonder if the customers will think I am crazy if I ask them for a
cookie sheet. NO SELF RESPECTING GRAND MOTHER IS WITHOUT A
COOKIE SHEET!

-T

Stormin's idea is great. (Should I have written Stormin''s?)

I sometimes use a towel on top of my work surface, one without too much
nap. Screws tend not to bounce and are easy to find - but not as easy as
in a cookie sheet :-)

How does the magnet do with brass screws?

I once lost a crystal from a pocket watch I was working on. The floor
had wide gaps between the boards and some sand in the gaps. But somehow
I found the jewel. Pure luck (I almost said blind luck...).

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 20:42:34 -0700, T wrote:

Hi Gene,

What kind of I.T. work do you do?

-T

I'm my own expert :-)


Hi Gene,

It shows. I see you helping a lot of people.

That was funny, in a way. Thanks for the praise, but I thought I was
really saying that I'm *not* a genuine IT expert at all :-)

I just take care of the stuff in this household and I occasionally help
a friend or two. I solve problems because I'm persistent (or is that
OCD?), and honestly, I don't solve them all.

Newsgroups and Google are, of course, a major source of my skills...

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 20:56:43 -0700, T wrote:

On 03/14/2015 06:15 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
No, it just led to a subtle put-down.

Hi Gene,

Uh, when did I do that? If I did, it was by accident.
It is important to me that we are good with each other.
I respect your technical opinion and value our
efriendship.

-T

I see from your later post that I misinterpreted your question "What
kind of I.T. work do you do?", so it's mea culpa...

I'm sorry about that.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 10:56:58 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 18:04:54 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 19:53:20 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 12:19:13 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 13:03:48 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

I don't use Restore Points, and in fact that's one of the very first
features I disable on each of my personal systems, but I didn't know
that rolling back to a previous RP would also clean up the filesystem.
I'm very surprised to hear that, and if it's true, it makes me extremely
happy to know that this feature is disabled.

At the time I was busy cleaning up the remnants off my hard drive that was
eating up a lot of space. Unfortuanely, one particular remnant directory
was also tied to VS. VS wouldn't load any projects. So I resorted to the
restore point. Problem solved. All you have to do is make a restore
point once a week and you won't have any problems.

Regarding that last sentence, I'm sorry but I don't believe that for a
second.

Then you apparently just don't do much system cleaning then.

No, that's not the problem with that statement. The problem is that you're
saying that if everyone made a restore point once a week then no one would
have any problems. Restore points don't prevent problems, as you surely must
know. In the best case, they might fix an issue, but you never know what
else they might 'fix' at the same time. Restore points aren't able to read
your mind. Instead, they just change everything they think they should
change, all at once. In anything less than the best case, they make one or
more changes to your system without fixing the issue you're currently
interested in, so you're left wondering what got changed while knowing that
the thing that was surely broken is still broken. It's sort of a lose-lose.

I'd say "In anything less than the best case, they make one or more
changes to your system without fixing the issue you're currently
interested in" is quite an exaggeration...

How about "in some of the worst cases" as a more moderate - and IMO
*much* more accurate - qualifier?

I've never experienced the extreme of which you write.

I re-read my text and compared it to yours, and I think I have to stay with
mine. Aren't there really only two possible outcomes when you roll back to a
previous restore point? Either your issue is resolved, or it isn't. Either
way, the user has no idea what else was changed in the process. I don't see
a gray area in between "my issue was resolved" and "my issue wasn't
resolved", and in both of those cases there can be other things that got
changed that you may not even see until later because you're focused on the
thing you were trying to resolve.

Am I looking at it wrong?

You have ignored a range of grey shades (way more than 50, IME).

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On 03/15/2015 02:02 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 20:42:34 -0700, T wrote:

Hi Gene,

What kind of I.T. work do you do?

-T

I'm my own expert :-)


Hi Gene,

It shows. I see you helping a lot of people.

That was funny, in a way. Thanks for the praise, but I thought I was
really saying that I'm *not* a genuine IT expert at all :-)

Hi Gene,

That explains it.

I thought from your knowledge and willingness to help,
that you did this professionally. I was making conversation.


I just take care of the stuff in this household and I occasionally help
a friend or two. I solve problems because I'm persistent (or is that
OCD?), and honestly, I don't solve them all.

Sometimes it takes me months of head scratching. And, of course,
I do occasionally stand on the shoulders of giants.

-T


Newsgroups and Google are, of course, a major source of my skills...

On 03/15/2015 02:05 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 20:56:43 -0700, T wrote:

On 03/14/2015 06:15 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
No, it just led to a subtle put-down.

Hi Gene,

Uh, when did I do that? If I did, it was by accident.
It is important to me that we are good with each other.
I respect your technical opinion and value our
efriendship.

-T

I see from your later post that I misinterpreted your question "What
kind of I.T. work do you do?", so it's mea culpa...

I'm sorry about that.


Hi Gene,

No problem.

This brings to an interesting topic. In written correspondence,
it is sometimes easy to be misinterpreted, especially
since you can't see facial inflections. To help with this,
I encourage folks to use emotocons, even though they
feel like 12 years olds doing it.

:-) :-) :-)

-T

On 03/15/2015 01:43 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
T wrote:

On 03/14/2015 11:25 AM, GreyCloud wrote:
T wrote:

On 03/13/2015 12:07 PM, GreyCloud wrote:

Very little crime here in the Kootenai tribal area. It's usually just
drunk
problems more than anything else. Our local college has a computer
science
class and they use RedHat Linux for their os to teach with. It's a lot
cheaper and it does learn them the basics.

Hi Grey Cloud,

I read your tribe's history and read the Wikipedia artile on your
tribe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ktunaxa

Only 67 of you left?! My heart breaks.

It is fewer than that now. Most have just left and given up.
Absorbed by the borg.

Hi Grey Cloud,

That is also heart breaking. You guys even survived an ICE AGE!

What gets me is TWENTY FIVE ACRES !!! That is all of your
land they gave back ???? And you had to declare war to
get it??? (Kind of a civil war declaration as you are
as American as any of the rest of us.) TWENTY FIVE ACRES !!!

Do you have any of those war bonds? Sound like a great
collectors item.

-T