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Microcode Update?



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 15th 18, 03:52 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Pat
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Posts: 56
Default Microcode Update?

Anyone here know how microcode updates work with modern processors?
Over the last few weeks, we have all seen the discussion of the
microcode bug that can be mitigated by OS updates which have the side
effect of slowing the processor. That, I understand. However, I have
also seen references to microcode updates released by, for example,
Intel for their processors. How do those get installed? How can
software running on a processor update the very microcode being used
to run the software? I must be missing something.

Pat
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  #2  
Old January 15th 18, 04:25 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Doomsdrzej[_2_]
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Posts: 262
Default Microcode Update?

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 09:52:38 -0500, Pat wrote:

Anyone here know how microcode updates work with modern processors?
Over the last few weeks, we have all seen the discussion of the
microcode bug that can be mitigated by OS updates which have the side
effect of slowing the processor. That, I understand. However, I have
also seen references to microcode updates released by, for example,
Intel for their processors. How do those get installed? How can
software running on a processor update the very microcode being used
to run the software? I must be missing something.


In Windows, as far as I know, the microcode software and updates are
taken care of by Intel, deployed to Microsoft and later provided as a
regular system update. In Linux, it's not loaded by default as far as
I know because of the fact that this code is proprietary and therefore
not necessarily wanted.
  #3  
Old January 15th 18, 06:52 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Andy Burns[_6_]
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Posts: 1,318
Default Microcode Update?

Pat wrote:
Anyone here know how microcode updates work with modern processors?


They can be installed from the BIOS, or failing that the O/S can update
it after being booted by the BIOS.

I have an ASRock motherboard that no longer seems to receive BIOS
updates, but the Linux kernel replaces the microcode (every time it
starts, it isn't stored permanently in the CPU), I recently got a new
microcode for the spectre mitigation

# dmesg | grep -i microcode

[ 0.000000] microcode: microcode updated early to revision 0x23, date
= 2017-11-20
[ 0.718520] microcode: sig=0x306c3, pf=0x2, revision=0x23
[ 0.718669] microcode: Microcode Update Driver: v2.2.

Maybe some manufacturers will start re-releasing BIOS updates for older
motherboards purely with updated microcode in them?

  #4  
Old January 15th 18, 06:54 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Andy Burns[_6_]
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Default Microcode Update?

Doomsdrzej wrote:

In Windows, as far as I know, the microcode software and updates are
taken care of by Intel, deployed to Microsoft and later provided as a
regular system update.


That is correct.

In Linux, it's not loaded by default as far as
I know because of the fact that this code is proprietary and therefore
not necessarily wanted.


That is incorrect.

  #5  
Old January 15th 18, 07:37 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Doomsdrzej[_2_]
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Default Microcode Update?

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 17:54:17 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

Doomsdrzej wrote:

In Windows, as far as I know, the microcode software and updates are
taken care of by Intel, deployed to Microsoft and later provided as a
regular system update.


That is correct.

In Linux, it's not loaded by default as far as
I know because of the fact that this code is proprietary and therefore
not necessarily wanted.


That is incorrect.


Please correct me. The only reason I assumed that its approach was
such was because Ubuntu gives the user the choice to install
proprietary drivers for the Intel microcode. By default, it is either
not loaded or uses free ones. Are you suggesting that it iis the
latter? If so, very interesting.
  #6  
Old January 15th 18, 08:04 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
mike[_10_]
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Posts: 1,073
Default Microcode Update?

On 1/15/2018 10:37 AM, Doomsdrzej wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 17:54:17 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

Doomsdrzej wrote:

In Windows, as far as I know, the microcode software and updates are
taken care of by Intel, deployed to Microsoft and later provided as a
regular system update.


That is correct.

In Linux, it's not loaded by default as far as
I know because of the fact that this code is proprietary and therefore
not necessarily wanted.


That is incorrect.


Please correct me. The only reason I assumed that its approach was
such was because Ubuntu gives the user the choice to install
proprietary drivers for the Intel microcode. By default, it is either
not loaded or uses free ones. Are you suggesting that it iis the
latter? If so, very interesting.

Exactly what is microcode in this context?

I always considered microcode to be stuff that's hard wired into the
processor and cannot be changed.

Then there's stuff that gets loaded into the device,
such as a lan adapter, at every boot.
It changes the operation of the device, but the actual
processor is not changed. It can't permanently break the device.

Then there's stuff that gets loaded with persistence, like BIOS.
While it doesn't change the processor at all, it can certainly
prevent the system from operating at all.
I've got two win8 computers seemingly borked by that.
That's two out of two win8 machines.

It appears that there's a new class of microcode that can directly
change persistent code within the microprocessor itself???

I don't care for stuff that can break the system and leave you zero
recovery options.

All the bitching and outrage notwithstanding,
for the average home user, is
all this really any big deal? If it ain't broke...
  #7  
Old January 15th 18, 08:49 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Andy Burns[_6_]
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Posts: 1,318
Default Microcode Update?

Doomsdrzej wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Doomsdrzej wrote:


In Linux, it's not loaded by default as far as
I know because of the fact that this code is proprietary and therefore
not necessarily wanted.


That is incorrect.


Please correct me. The only reason I assumed that its approach was
such was because Ubuntu


Ubuntu (and derivatives) may choose not to to install microcode and/or
device firmware by default, but other distros (e.g. RHEL/Centos/Fedora)
do install it by default.
  #8  
Old January 15th 18, 08:54 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Andy Burns[_6_]
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Posts: 1,318
Default Microcode Update?

mike wrote:

Exactly what is microcode in this context?


Recent intel processors don't natively execute x86 or x86_64
instructions that compilers or humans produce, they use a lower level
internal microcoded instruction set. So to a limited degree they can
issue new microcode (which the CPU will only accept if it recognises a
signature on it) that alters how the processor actually runs.

It appears that there's a new class of microcode that can directly
change persistent code within the microprocessor itself???


No intel CPU microcode needs to be loaded into the CPU at every reboot
(by the BIOS, or by the O/S)

all this really any big deal? If it ain't broke...


You don't regard meltdown and/or spectre as evidence of breakage?
  #9  
Old January 15th 18, 09:55 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Ant[_2_]
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Posts: 554
Default Microcode Update?

Andy Burns wrote:
Pat wrote:
Anyone here know how microcode updates work with modern processors?


They can be installed from the BIOS, or failing that the O/S can update
it after being booted by the BIOS.


I have an ASRock motherboard that no longer seems to receive BIOS
updates, but the Linux kernel replaces the microcode (every time it
starts, it isn't stored permanently in the CPU), I recently got a new
microcode for the spectre mitigation


# dmesg | grep -i microcode


[ 0.000000] microcode: microcode updated early to revision 0x23, date
= 2017-11-20
[ 0.718520] microcode: sig=0x306c3, pf=0x2, revision=0x23
[ 0.718669] microcode: Microcode Update Driver: v2.2.


Maybe some manufacturers will start re-releasing BIOS updates for older
motherboards purely with updated microcode in them?


I wonder if mine is good or bad in Debian oldstable/Jessie on a very old Intel desktop PC:
$ dmesg | grep -i microcode
[ 0.512047] microcode: CPU0 sig=0x10677, pf=0x10, revision=0x705
[ 0.512055] microcode: CPU1 sig=0x10677, pf=0x10, revision=0x705
[ 0.512072] microcode: CPU2 sig=0x10677, pf=0x10, revision=0x705
[ 0.512086] microcode: CPU3 sig=0x10677, pf=0x10, revision=0x705
[ 0.512182] microcode: Microcode Update Driver: v2.00 , Peter Oruba
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  #10  
Old January 15th 18, 10:29 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Andy Burns[_6_]
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Posts: 1,318
Default Microcode Update?

Ant wrote:

microcode: CPU0 sig=0x10677 revision=0x705


which seems to be from 2008-04-28

Whatever CPU that is, I think the latest microcode update was 2010-09-29
rev 0x070a
  #11  
Old January 15th 18, 10:39 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Bob F[_2_]
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Default Microcode Update?

On 1/15/2018 11:54 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
mike wrote:

Exactly what is microcode in this context?


Recent intel processors don't natively execute x86 or x86_64
instructions that compilers or humans produce, they use a lower level
internal microcoded instruction set.Â* So to a limited degree they can
issue new microcode (which the CPU will only accept if it recognises a
signature on it) that alters how the processor actually runs.

It appears that there's a new class of microcode that can directly
change persistent code within the microprocessor itself???


No intel CPU microcode needs to be loaded into the CPU at every reboot
(by the BIOS, or by the O/S)


Part of the BIOS is microcode for each processor it can handle. I have
gone through the process of modifying the BIOS for motherboards to allow
them to handle processors they were not designed for. I would think this
is the microcode they are talking about.

  #12  
Old January 16th 18, 12:19 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Andy Burns[_6_]
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Posts: 1,318
Default Microcode Update?

Bob F wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

intel CPU microcode needs to be loaded into the CPU at every reboot
(by the BIOS, or by the O/S)


Part of the BIOS is microcode for each processor it can handle.


But the microcode in the BIOS likely isn't updated after a few years, if
ever (normal people don't update their BIOS) the microcode in the O/S
may well be newer.

I have gone through the process of modifying the BIOS for
motherboards to allow them to handle processors they were not
designed for. I would think this is the microcode they are talking
about.

It is, but most people couldn't update the microcode area within a BIOS
update and apply it without bricking their PC.



  #13  
Old January 16th 18, 01:24 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
...w¡ñ§±¤ñ[_2_]
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Posts: 54
Default Microcode Update?

Pat wrote:
Anyone here know how microcode updates work with modern processors?
Over the last few weeks, we have all seen the discussion of the
microcode bug that can be mitigated by OS updates which have the side
effect of slowing the processor. That, I understand. However, I have
also seen references to microcode updates released by, for example,
Intel for their processors. How do those get installed? How can
software running on a processor update the very microcode being used
to run the software? I must be missing something.

Pat


The general rule for Spectre/Meltdown

Intel releases the microcode update
The OEM(pc manufacturer) or mobo manufacturer releases the UEFI/BIOS or
BIOS update accommodating the microcode update
The system end-user installs/updates the UEFI/BIOS or BIOS

Bottom line - Not all devices will receive or be able to update UEFI/BIOS or
BIOS for all Intel released microcode updates for two simple reasons -
Firmware updates is not an in perpetuity support requirement and OEM or Mobo
manufacturers' are not going to attempt to update all
impacted(Spectre/Meltdown vulnerable) hardware on the planet.

Microsoft, in fact, may not release firmware updates for all of its own
released hardware using Intel, ARM or Atom chipsets(e.g. Surface, XBox, etc.
products)


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  #14  
Old January 16th 18, 01:33 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Andy Burns[_6_]
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Posts: 1,318
Default Microcode Update?

....w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:

Not all devices will receive or be able to update UEFI/BIOS or
BIOS for all Intel released microcode updates


Firmware updates (being hardware specific) aren't required in order to
get "sticky" microcode updates, the O/S can directly update the
microcode at every boot instead.

  #15  
Old January 16th 18, 01:34 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Melzzzzz[_3_]
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Posts: 119
Default Microcode Update?

On 2018-01-16, Andy Burns wrote:
...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:

Not all devices will receive or be able to update UEFI/BIOS or
BIOS for all Intel released microcode updates


Firmware updates (being hardware specific) aren't required in order to
get "sticky" microcode updates, the O/S can directly update the
microcode at every boot instead.

That is what I do...


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