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#16
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Dirty Tricks?
On 13/11/2014 23:18, Joel wrote:
"Bob Henson" escreveu na mensagem ... P.S. to the last message. As I was about to delete the whole shooting match, I remembered Start 8 - a very similar program to Classic Shell and also written only for Windows 8. It works just fine, almost as good as Classic Shell. I will still be deleting the whole thing in 30 days time (Start 8 is only free for 30 days) but it looks as though the conspiracy theory is true! -- Treat each day like it's your last - one day you'll be right. Try Start Menu X http://www.startmenux.com/index.html Again, it works just fine - it would seem that Microsoft only has it in for Classic Shell. Albeit not as configurable as Classic Shell, it does the job nicely. I'll leave that one on and carry on using it for a while. -- A hangover is the wrath of grapes. Bob Tetbury, Gloucestershire, UK |
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#17
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Dirty Tricks?
Bob Henson explained :
On 13/11/2014 23:18, Joel wrote: "Bob Henson" escreveu na mensagem ... P.S. to the last message. As I was about to delete the whole shooting match, I remembered Start 8 - a very similar program to Classic Shell and also written only for Windows 8. It works just fine, almost as good as Classic Shell. I will still be deleting the whole thing in 30 days time (Start 8 is only free for 30 days) but it looks as though the conspiracy theory is true! -- Treat each day like it's your last - one day you'll be right. Try Start Menu X http://www.startmenux.com/index.html Again, it works just fine - it would seem that Microsoft only has it in for Classic Shell. Albeit not as configurable as Classic Shell, it does the job nicely. I'll leave that one on and carry on using it for a while. Why would Microsoft target that one single app vs. the others that do the same thing? It is more likely a bug in the app itself that some change in the OS exposed. |
#18
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Dirty Tricks?
On 14/11/2014 13:18, Seth wrote:
Bob Henson explained : On 13/11/2014 23:18, Joel wrote: "Bob Henson" escreveu na mensagem ... P.S. to the last message. As I was about to delete the whole shooting match, I remembered Start 8 - a very similar program to Classic Shell and also written only for Windows 8. It works just fine, almost as good as Classic Shell. I will still be deleting the whole thing in 30 days time (Start 8 is only free for 30 days) but it looks as though the conspiracy theory is true! -- Treat each day like it's your last - one day you'll be right. Try Start Menu X http://www.startmenux.com/index.html Again, it works just fine - it would seem that Microsoft only has it in for Classic Shell. Albeit not as configurable as Classic Shell, it does the job nicely. I'll leave that one on and carry on using it for a while. Why would Microsoft target that one single app vs. the others that do the same thing? Because it is by far the most popular way of removing the changes that no-one wants? It is more likely a bug in the app itself that some change in the OS exposed. Perhaps I just like conspiracy theories :-) The thing that made me suspicious is that it worked perfectly in the first two builds of Windows 10. That doesn't mean that it *was* deliberate, but it does mean that it's nothing to do with Classic Shell - the change is in Windows 10. Knowing that Redmond has already had a go at Classic Shell specifically in the past - that makes me think they're up to their usual heavy handed way of dealing with things they don't like. It may be nothing of the kind, of course. -- Atheist - a person with no invisible means of support. Bob Tetbury, Gloucestershire, UK |
#19
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Dirty Tricks?
Bob Henson wrote:
Again, it works just fine - it would seem that Microsoft only has it in for Classic Shell. Albeit not as configurable as Classic Shell, it does the job nicely. I'll leave that one on and carry on using it for a while. Do these other shell enhancers/replacements also include modifying Windows Explorer? As I recall Start8 did nothing to Windows Explorer, just to the Start menu. ClassicShell can also modify Windows Explorer to be more retro. ClassicShell can also modify Internet Explorer. So ClassicShell is doing more than the other Start menu only enhancers which means there could be a conflict with ClassicShell and something other than the Start menu it modifies. http://classicshell.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3349 So there had been what were deemed "minor" issues within builds prior to where Microsoft blocked it via the compatibility service. That you didn't encounter or notice those problems doesn't mean that ClassicShell was okay under Win10 TP. Maybe something not so minor came up. The others not getting blocked could be that they are not on Microsoft's radar or they do not cause the problems that ClassicShell does (which does more than the others). To be fair, I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft purposedly blocked ALL such shell replacements. The tech preview version is to be tested for what it is, not what it be twisted into. You're supposed to be testing the tech preview and providing feedback on that. Program compatibility is a part of that testing but shell replacements are hardly mainstream and detract from you testing the OS features themselves. |
#20
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Dirty Tricks?
Bob Henson wrote:
Perhaps I just like conspiracy theories :-) The thing that made me suspicious is that it worked perfectly in the first two builds of Windows 10. That doesn't mean that it *was* deliberate, but it does mean that it's nothing to do with Classic Shell - the change is in Windows 10. Knowing that Redmond has already had a go at Classic Shell specifically in the past - that makes me think they're up to their usual heavy handed way of dealing with things they don't like. It may be nothing of the kind, of course. Sorry, the conspiracy theory is too lame. Microsoft "has it in" for any app that is not compatible with a new version of Windows. Microsoft cannot deem an app is non-compatible until it gets tested, so it appears Microsoft has some data showing ClassicShell causes problems on the *technical preview* of Windows 10. This may change by the time the consumer preview is released. Instead of blocking that app, Microsoft might by then know what settings to change to permit that app to run within a compatibility environ. There may be new features planned for Win10 with which ClassicShell causes irreparable harm. In that case, it is not Microsoft's responsibility to fix the app. The authors of the app will have to do that whenever they feel like it. http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/downl....aspx?id=41162 You'll find not only applications that Microsoft is unaware if compatible or not but some that are specifically listed as "Not compatible". Some are even listed as compatible under Windows 7 but not under Windows 8, so there were intrinsic features or functions in Windows 8 but not back in Windows 7 that got interferred with by those apps. Alas, there isn't another tab in the spreadsheet for the "Not compatible" apps to know without separate research as to why they are considered not compatible. If Microsoft "had it in" for ClassicShell, they would "have it in" for all the other shell replacements or enhancers as well as other tools they "don't like", like Nirsoft. If Microsoft decided to not just provide a compatibility environ for an otherwise incompatible or misbehaving app and instead block it, I suspect there really is something wrong with that app on THAT version of Windows. ClassicShell isn't just a Start menu replacement and digs in elsewhere that maybe now is a no-no. Remember back in Windows XP when you used regedit.exe to edit the registry that if you had a problem editing or deleting a key that you had to change permissions on it and then edit or delete it? Well, in Windows 7, Microsoft removed that capability on many registry keys. You can't change permissions so you can't edit or delete that registry key. If some registry tweaker was corrosive to that new in-built registry protection then it might also get blocked by the Compatibility Service. My theory is that ClassicShell does something to de-stablize Win10 or one of its integrated ancilliary programs (Windows Explorer or Internet Explorer) and why it got blocked. The ClassicShell devs say they're not going to address the situation until much later when there is a release candidate or when the product goes GA (general availability) with an RTM (released to manufacturing) build. Microsoft thinks it found something nasty about ClassicShell. It's not their job to fix that software. It's the responsibility of the ClassicShell devs to find out what they're trying to step on that isn't allowed in this new version of Windows. The other Start menu enhancers are doing whatever bad thing that ClassicShell does. |
#21
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Dirty Tricks?
On 14/11/2014 6:17 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
Bob Henson wrote: To be fair, I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft purposedly blocked ALL such shell replacements. The tech preview version is to be tested for what it is, not what it be twisted into. You're supposed to be testing the tech preview and providing feedback on that. Program compatibility is a part of that testing but shell replacements are hardly mainstream and detract from you testing the OS features themselves. I am doing exactly that, testing the preview and reporting back when I find anything to report. If Microsoft want to know what will happen when Windows 10 hits the real world, then they need to realise quickly that they have made yet another giant cock-up. Windows 10 is Windows 8 with a couple of tiny cosmetic changes, and most power users, gamers, and enterprise users will immediately change the GUI to something usable - if you can ever persuade them to change - so you could say that this is the most important part of the testing. There is nothing even vaguely revolutionary about Windows 10 that anyone has reported so far, including those far, far more knowledgeable than me (and I've seen nothing from Microsoft either) and if there is not, it will fall flat on it's face like 8 and 8.1. What I am doing is seeing if it can be made usable. So far only one program (Classic Shell) that I ran on Windows 7 (and 8 and 8.1) has refused to run on it - so it isn't a fat lot different from Windows 7 internally, and not a patch on it externally. Only one registry tweak has failed to have any effect so far - and that did no harm either, I imagine it was blocked. I suspect that the only people who will like this new version are the tablet and phone users - and then only if there are any improvements for them that I can't see on my desktop. I don't use either (mine are Android) so I can't help them with that. In any case, I can't seem many people trying out Windows 10 on a tablet (can you dual boot with Windows tablets and diddly squat memory - or run a VM?) as no-one will want to overwrite what works with what might not - so I think all they will get for some time is the reports of desktop users. The latter will all want a decent menu system. I would have thought that Microsoft would have been very interested in what we desktop users had to say because that is what all their enterprise customers will have to say - you would imagine they should have learned their lessons from 8 and 8.1. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to learn, though - here are no signs of it to date. -- Bob Tetbury, Gloucestershire, UK Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it. |
#22
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Dirty Tricks?
On 14 Nov 2014, Bob Henson wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-10: Again, it works just fine - it would seem that Microsoft only has it in for Classic Shell. That may be what it "seems" to you, but I don't buy it. I think it's more likely that there is something specific in the programming of Classic Shell that conflicts with Windows 10's security or interface. I expect that Classic Shell will adjust things to make it more compatible before long. |
#23
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Dirty Tricks?
Bob Henson wrote:
On 14/11/2014 6:17 PM, VanguardLH wrote: Bob Henson wrote: To be fair, I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft purposedly blocked ALL such shell replacements. The tech preview version is to be tested for what it is, not what it be twisted into. You're supposed to be testing the tech preview and providing feedback on that. Program compatibility is a part of that testing but shell replacements are hardly mainstream and detract from you testing the OS features themselves. I am doing exactly that, testing the preview and reporting back when I find anything to report. If Microsoft want to know what will happen when Windows 10 hits the real world, then they need to realise quickly that they have made yet another giant cock-up. Hardly a giant cock-up. How many Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 users are there? Windows 8 alone, the failed OS, had over 100 million licenses sold in just over 6 months from its GA (general availability). They've sold more since then. Then add in all the users of Windows 7. How many ClassicShell users are there? 15 million downloads of ClassicShell does NOT equate to 15 million users. They don't require registration so there's no way to know how many ClassicShell users there really are. Your experience represents a giant impact to a tiny percentage of all Windows users. To Microsoft, the number of ClassicShell users is tiny. You think it's worth their time to make a fix for a program they found incompatible? How about all those apps that Microsoft lists as incompatible in prior versions of Windows? You think Microsoft is going to waste their time on those, too? That's not their job. It is there job to protect the usability of their product. Backwards compatibility is designed regarding the old versions of THEIR product (old versions of Windows). It isn't designed to accomodate individual applications. That's why the app devs are the ones that have to modify code to make their product work under a new Windows version. Windows 10 is Windows 8 with a couple of tiny cosmetic changes, and most power users, gamers, and enterprise users will immediately change the GUI to something usable - if you can ever persuade them to change - so you could say that this is the most important part of the testing. Really? My opinion is this type of app would have a tiny populace of users. Remember that distribution of Windows isn't just to 1-license using end users (only a small percentage of which will replace or modify the shell) but also to mega-license using corporations where such shell modifications are not permitted. In your small realm of friends there may be a high percentage of users replacing the shell. From what I've seen working with customers (not my small clique of friends) and at corporations is that nearly no one replaces the shell. You're making a mountain out of an ant hill regarding Microsoft's dastardly plot to squelch ClassicShell. There is nothing even vaguely revolutionary about Windows 10 that anyone has reported so far, including those far, far more knowledgeable than me (and I've seen nothing from Microsoft either) and if there is not, it will fall flat on it's face like 8 and 8.1. If there was no difference other than cosemtic then an app would not be listed as incompatible. I don't agree with your conspiracy theory. What I am doing is seeing if it can be made usable. So far only one program (Classic Shell) that I ran on Windows 7 (and 8 and 8.1) has refused to run on it - so it isn't a fat lot different from Windows 7 internally, and not a patch on it externally. Only one registry tweak has failed to have any effect so far - and that did no harm either, I imagine it was blocked. Is it the installer or the app itself that is block as non-compatible? The articles on how to disable compatibility checking didn't work? Then YOU might find what Microsoft found regarding problems with ClassicShell assuming you do full testing of ClassicShell, like how it modifies not just the Start menu but also Windows Explorer and Internet Explorer and run a good number of test cases. The folks over at the ClassicShell forum don't want discussions of Windows 10 incompatiblity because they're already aware of the problem and will fix it later. However, you might be able to establish a private message thread with a moderator or dev to get them to release to you what they think Microsoft thinks is the problem. Then in your bypass of compatibility check and testing of ClassicShell you might have an idea on what to test to see if you can force an exhibit of the problem(s). I suspect that the only people who will like this new version are the tablet and phone users - and then only if there are any improvements for them that I can't see on my desktop. I also don't care for the mobile-centric design of Windows since version 8. It's down-designed for toy computers. If they wanted to capture the mobile market, they should've coded a Windows versions for that but left a more robust version for desktops. They do for the embedded version of Windows used, for example, on point-of-sale registers so why not for the mobile market, too? I don't use either (mine are Android) so I can't help them with that. In any case, I can't seem many people trying out Windows 10 on a tablet (can you dual boot with Windows tablets and diddly squat memory - or run a VM?) as no-one will want to overwrite what works with what might not - so I think all they will get for some time is the reports of desktop users. The latter will all want a decent menu system. They keep playing around trying to find what the majority of their [corporate] users want. Productivity is more important than customization or cuteness. They had a UI that worked for a long time but apparently felt the need to find some better, well, different. To proffer a product as a new version meant changing it somehow and the GUI was probably the easiest and most visible change they could make. If you make a product too good, where's the sales volume for [corporate] technical support? Microsoft reports $20B in revenue at Q3 of 2013. Yet they reported only $5.7B in Windows sales. The rest comes from something other than Windows sales. They are into many services to generate revenue but I'd be interested in knowing how much they rake in for tech support revenue versus Windows sales. |
#24
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Dirty Tricks?
In message , Bob Henson
writes I suspect that the only people who will like this new version are the tablet and phone users - and then only if there are any improvements for them that I can't see on my desktop. I don't use either (mine are Android) so I can't help them with that. In any case, I can't seem many people trying out Windows 10 on a tablet (can you dual boot with Windows tablets and diddly squat memory - or run a VM?) as no-one will want to overwrite what works with what might not - so I think all they will get for some time is the reports of desktop users. The latter will all want a decent menu system. Just a FWIW here, but I'm testing the preview on an old Lenovo tablet convertible laptop and, although I agree the start menu needs to get back to having a list of programs, I think it is a major improvement over 8.1. I run 8.1 on a similar tablet and dislike it. For reasons that I can't remember (I'm very old, too), I have never got on with things like classic shell, start8 and so on. I've installed them but got very frustrated with things they stopped me doing. On the W10 machine I have added the "All Programs" as a toolbar, just like I did on the 8.1 machine. This provides something very close to a decent menu. What I didn't have to do was add a charms button to the task bar without which 8.1 was hopeless. I now have a machine that can run up to 8gigs of ram, has a 500G or more HD and can be a tablet or use keyboard and (on this) trackpoint. The pen lets me draw or access fine print (I think where these have finger touch, it's not sensitive or multi ). -- Bill |
#25
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Dirty Tricks?
Nil wrote:
Bob Henson wrote: Again, it works just fine - it would seem that Microsoft only has it in for Classic Shell. That may be what it "seems" to you, but I don't buy it. I think it's more likely that there is something specific in the programming of Classic Shell that conflicts with Windows 10's security or interface. I expect that Classic Shell will adjust things to make it more compatible before long. The Windows 10 Consumer Preview release (which will be dubbed Windows 10 "Technical Preview for Consumers" - to confuse it with the "Technical Preview" release - Microsoft loves confusion) will be "released early 2015". Early does not equate to Q1 or Q2 so "early" doesn't really specify when. It is expected the RTM (release to manufacturing) release will occupy a bit before the expiration of the Consumer Preview release. "We have a Consumer Preview in early 2015, the Developer Preview in April, followed by the launch of the final version by the end of the year. Technical Preview is not the way to get an idea of what to expect in the Consumer Preview, also not a place for developers to try to develop an application in Windows 10 it is intended for users of our company, " a Microsoft statement. ClassicShell has stated they will not address code changes to make their product compatible with Windows 10 until there is a release candidate or RTM (release to manufacturing) release. So ClassicShell may not fix its Win10 compatiblities until late spring or summer of 2015 or maybe even for more than a year from now. ClassicShell has admitted they have compatibility problems with Windows 10 TP. Yet they don't mention what they are. If the incompatibility is only with their installer and not their application, perhaps they should provide an alternate installation method so ClassicShell enthusiasts could volunteer their testing time to assist ClassicShell. |
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