MS unwanted updates tonight...

"ultred ragnusen" wrote

| You most definitely can stop the Microsoft updates. For years.
|
It might be tricky to be sure. You don't control
the system on Win10 the way you could with
earlier versions. And even earlier versions were
not trustworthy.

Case in point: Several years ago there was big
excitement when a lot of IT people, who had
specifically disabled Windows Update service,
found it installing updates. (And this pre-dated
Win10. It was probably on XP or Vista. I don't
remember.) Microsoft responded that Windows
Update *itself* was being updated, against the
wishes and without the knowledge of IT people.

MS essentially said, "Don't worry. We know you
disabled Windows Update. We're just bypassing that
to take care of a few things we think are important."
So Windows Update was bypassing Windows Update.

Mayayana wrote:
"...w¡ñ§±¤ñ" wrote

| Afaics, the culture, ecosystem and need/desire for 'one-place' email
| ceased quite some time ago for most end-users.
|

It's not really an issue of "one place" vs webmail.
It's real email vs freebie webmail that claims
co-ownership of your email and uses targetted ads
based on that content.
Nearly all ISPs now offer webmail as an option.
The host for my domain provides a webmail option.
I don't use it because it's a very poor substitute
for a real email program.

In other words, if you want to get your email
on the road you can do that without using
gmail, outlook.com, or yahoo.


The concept of 'real email' - at one time maybe, not anymore, the only
difference is the brand name of the domain and that is no longer absolute.

Lol...I didn't raise the 'one place' paradigm, just commented that that
mentality or need has changed dramatically.



--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ
msft mvp 2007-2016, insider mvp 2016-2018

Mayayana wrote:

| You most definitely can stop the Microsoft updates. For years.
|
It might be tricky to be sure. You don't control
the system on Win10 the way you could with
earlier versions. And even earlier versions were
not trustworthy.

Hi Mayayana,

You know me, over the years, to always speak facts.

Hence, I emphatically state you /can/ forestall the Windows update, at
least from 2015 to 2018, as I did, but unfortunately I changed so many
things, I don't know specifically what prevented Microsoft from updating
off of Windows 10 Pro Version 1511 OS Build 10586.1106 when MS finally
bricked my OS in January of this year.

I realize that only provides "hope" but not the answer of "how".

So Windows Update was bypassing Windows Update.

Agreed that it's getting harder to control your own software.

"...w¡ñ§±¤ñ" wrote

| The concept of 'real email' - at one time maybe, not anymore, the only
| difference is the brand name of the domain and that is no longer absolute.
|

Not at all. That's my point. And it seemed to be
what Brick was expressing. If you pay for it
it's real email. If you use gmail then it's their
email. As your email address here demonstrates,
you don't care about Google storing and reading
your private correspondence. Many people
don't. But that doesn't mean real email is a
thing of the past.

Mayayana wrote:
"...w¡ñ§±¤ñ" wrote

| The concept of 'real email' - at one time maybe, not anymore, the only
| difference is the brand name of the domain and that is no longer absolute.
|

Not at all. That's my point. And it seemed to be
what Brick was expressing. If you pay for it
it's real email. If you use gmail then it's their
email. As your email address here demonstrates,
you don't care about Google storing and reading
your private correspondence. Many people
don't. But that doesn't mean real email is a
thing of the past.


Lol...another wrong assumption = The email in the posting properties.
One would have to actually use that valid gmail posting address for
Google to store and read anything of mine. If I ever decide to send an
email from that address I'll logon and let you know, you can be the
first recipient. Or, maybe you can send me one, let me know, I'll try to
log on prior to the filter that Deletes all incoming.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ
msft mvp 2007-2016, insider mvp 2016-2018

....w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
Frank Slootweg wrote:

If not, then I don't consider it to be an alternative, because it's
totally different and offers no migration/import part from OE/WM.

IMAP for many email accounts has been the easiest migration route to
Windows 10 Mail client since both OE and Vista, like Windows 10, support
IMAP.

IMAP is neither needed nor easy (except is the simplest of cases).

The other optional route for email accounts was available from 2008
through the fall of 2016 for MSA(Microsoft Accounts).
That migration route was DeltaSync for Outlook.com, Hotmail, Live, and
MSn accounts in Windows Live Mail which was an installable client on XP
and Vista.
- One need not use the WLM client thereafter but the route to 'push'
your mail and contacts to Outlook.com(fka Hotmail, Live. Msn.com) was
the method MSFT provided. Whether one like the approach or not, it
'was' available and is still available today, once installed[1] since
WLM12 still has the ability to import OE and WM mail into WLM for
copy/move into any email account supporting IMAP. While not all email
accounts support IMAP, the majority do provide IMAP and POP3 support.

I went from OE to WM to WLM, so I'm aware of what they can (not) do.

The bottom line, if you really needed to migrate the options were/are
available...but to do so the underlying requirement and expectedly so
was the need for a MSA account(Outlook/Live/Hotmail/MSn.com or 3rd party
registered email address as an MSA) or the use of IMAP.

Nope, because:

[...]

3. Windows Live Mail is another choice. I also think that's a poor
choice, but it too is a choice.

See my other response. WLM is bug-ridden, bordering on unuseable.

*If* WLM would be a realistic migration path, I would still be on it.

WLM has never been everyone's cup of tea, but when migration is the
concern - it was MSFT provided route. Not using then or now[1] doesn't
negate the option being available from MSFT.

You 'overlooked' my "WLM is bug-ridden, bordering on unuseable."
comment.

Hence WLM was *not* the "MSFT provided route". WLM was not even
adapted to work correctly on Windows 8[.1]. For example not looking at
Contacts and not being backed up by File History (because the WLM Store
Folder is in the wrong place).

WLM is also broken in other areas, such as FUBARring the structure
of imported WM folders and - as I mentioned before - not removing
expired messages from the POP server.

And these are only the WLM bugs which I can somewhat easily recollect
after some three years. There are probably others which I've forgotten.

[1] WLM while no longer available for download from MSFT's servers it
can be obtained via 3rd party hosting sites.

WLM no longer being available from Microsoft is probably a good thing.

[...]

Thus stating that no migration path was/is available from MSFT would be
in error especially since the option was available for over 8 years,
more than sufficient time for OE/WM users implementation.

Was it the best and easiest route? No.
Was/Is a migration route available? Yes

A 'migration route' which ends up with a broken MUA FUBARring your
existing mail, isn't one. Period.

=?UTF-8?B?Li4ud8Khw7HCp8KxwqTDsQ==?= wrote in
news
Mayayana wrote:
"...w¡ñ§±¤ñ" wrote

| The concept of 'real email' - at one time maybe, not anymore, the
| only difference is the brand name of the domain and that is no
| longer absolute.
|

Not at all. That's my point. And it seemed to be
what Brick was expressing. If you pay for it
it's real email. If you use gmail then it's their
email. As your email address here demonstrates,
you don't care about Google storing and reading
your private correspondence. Many people
don't. But that doesn't mean real email is a
thing of the past.


Lol...another wrong assumption = The email in the posting properties.
One would have to actually use that valid gmail posting address for
Google to store and read anything of mine. If I ever decide to send
an email from that address I'll logon and let you know, you can be the
first recipient. Or, maybe you can send me one, let me know, I'll try
to log on prior to the filter that Deletes all incoming.

If I was really concerned about it I could register a domain name, start
up my own IMAP mail server, and happily send and receive email to my very
own Thunderbird client. But of course that would only secure my end from
prying. Anyone sending or receiving email from me would have to do the
same, or use one of the common portals like gmail or yahoo or etc., etc.,
etc., and it would still be subject to being scanned by third parties.
The only way to fully eliminate that would be to have all my mail
encrypted, which would work for the few people I correspond with, but at
the current time would be totally unworkable for the majority of the
emails I receive.

"Tim" wrote

| If I was really concerned about it I could register a domain name, start
| up my own IMAP mail server, and happily send and receive email to my very
| own Thunderbird client. But of course that would only secure my end from
| prying. Anyone sending or receiving email from me would have to do the
| same, or use one of the common portals like gmail or yahoo or etc., etc.,
| etc., and it would still be subject to being scanned by third parties.
| The only way to fully eliminate that would be to have all my mail
| encrypted, which would work for the few people I correspond with, but at
| the current time would be totally unworkable for the majority of the
| emails I receive.

Good points. When Google faced a class action
lawsuit from non-gmail users their defense was
that the people had no case because they should
know that Google is a spyware company, therefore
they had no "expectation of privacy".

"Sure, I broke in and stole their jewelry, your honor.
But I'm a thief. Everyone knows that. So no one
has any reasonable right to expect that I won't steal
their stuff. Therefore, please dismiss this case."

I don't know how that case turned out, or if it's
over. I'd guess the class action probably failed,
simply because it would be too disruptive to business
to let it succeed.

Encryption is actually becoming common. Pretty
much everyone can have encrypted email just
by adjusting settings in their email client. Though
frankly I don't know the details of how secure that
is.
But encryption is only a related issue. There's
the issue of how to protect your data and then there's
the issue of privacy rights and common decency.

By using freebie webmail people must accept that
the likes of Google actually co-own their private
correspondence and will even keep copies after an
account is deleted. There have been court cases
where police requested deleted gmail.

https://www2.cs.duke.edu/courses/spr.../gmailcnet.pdf

In other words, while encryption is useful for both
privacy and security, there's also a social/cultural/
legal issue about privacy involved. Do we, as citizens,
have a reasonable expectation to not be spied on
or subject to electronic surveillance for profit?
There's a clear, concise discussion of the issue
he

http://wakeforestlawreview.com/2012/...d-privacy-law/

In brief, aside from all the pros and cons, and aside
from the technical issues, you help to establish a
no-rights legal precedent simply by using spyware
webmail, since you agree to their terms by doing so.
By doing nothing we support social corruption and we
further the trend toward corporate rights over
private lives.

On Sun, 11 Mar 2018 04:29:14 -0400, "HB" wrote:

....wiped out OE6. It's still there but will not work anymore. So now I have
a laptop I can't use for email. I don't understand why the hell MS would
give a &^%$ that someone would want to use OE.

And what really eats my lunch is these updates are FORCED on us. Our
choice was taken away.

There has to be a way to stop them, maybe in the regestry. Someone on this
group must know how to stop these updates.

I want ALL Microsoft updates :-)

I do not have the IT skills to make any informed decision about what
to install and what not to install.

"ultred ragnusen" wrote

| So Windows Update was bypassing Windows Update.
|
| Agreed that it's getting harder to control your own software.

Apropos of that, this just in.... Woops.

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/new...sers-to-v1709/

Mayayana wrote:
Good points. When Google faced a class action
lawsuit from non-gmail users their defense was
that the people had no case because they should
know that Google is a spyware company, therefore
they had no "expectation of privacy".

Matera vs. Google, Northern California District Court

Your above statement is false and quite hilarious most likely opinion
rather than the gathered from the court's transcription and
documents(the latter is available though some sources may require
account signup/email address validation for an account to access legal
documentation and maybe even result in more targeted ads g).
- i.e. Google never admitted or acknowledged they were a spyware company
in their defense arguments nor directly claming non-Gmail users had no
'expectation of privacy'.

I don't know how that case turned out, or if it's
over. I'd guess the class action probably failed,
simply because it would be too disruptive to business
to let it succeed.

The judge approved the 2.2. Million Settlement(almost all attorney's
fees)in Aug. 2017. The two Class Action representatives each recieved a
few thousand dollars.


Gmail users will still be subject to 'personalized' ads and marketing
messages but these would be based on other data(not data collected from
email scanning prior to Inbox delivery), which may include search
queries or browsing habits.

The free Gmail service would now follow the same practices as its
corporate G Suite Gmail. i.e. 'Consumer Gmail content will not be used
or scanned for any ads personalization.

Now, Google will monitor its Gmail users' online activity, such as
searchers, browsing and YouTube interest, in order to generate the
personalized ads.

Does not impact other specific scanning e.g. they will continue to scan
incoming mail prior to delivery to GMail account Inbox and outgoing mail
for malware. spam, phishing and possible violation of TOS.

A change but marginal since even the Google account holders(including
the non-Gmail users - the class group of the complaint) will continue to
be the source of collected data and recipient of targeted personalized
ads just as all Google account holders have been in the past regardless
on not having a Google Gmail account.



--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ
msft mvp 2007-2016, insider mvp 2016-2018

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2018 04:29:14 -0400, "HB" wrote:

....wiped out OE6. It's still there but will not work anymore. So now I have
a laptop I can't use for email. I don't understand why the hell MS would
give a &^%$ that someone would want to use OE.

And what really eats my lunch is these updates are FORCED on us. Our
choice was taken away.

There has to be a way to stop them, maybe in the regestry. Someone on this
group must know how to stop these updates.

I want ALL Microsoft updates :-)

I do not have the IT skills to make any informed decision about what
to install and what not to install.

You don't have to understand how the weather works,
to read a weather forecast.

Same goes with updates. You wait until someone else
tests them, if they "smell bad", you hold off on installing
them. Usually, in a week or two, they're fixed (re-released)...
and ready to install. The idea is not to be in a rush, and
"be first" to try them.

Paul

Frank Slootweg wrote:
...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
Frank Slootweg wrote:

If not, then I don't consider it to be an alternative, because it's
totally different and offers no migration/import part from OE/WM.

IMAP for many email accounts has been the easiest migration route to
Windows 10 Mail client since both OE and Vista, like Windows 10, support
IMAP.

IMAP is neither needed nor easy (except is the simplest of cases).

The other optional route for email accounts was available from 2008
through the fall of 2016 for MSA(Microsoft Accounts).
That migration route was DeltaSync for Outlook.com, Hotmail, Live, and
MSn accounts in Windows Live Mail which was an installable client on XP
and Vista.
- One need not use the WLM client thereafter but the route to 'push'
your mail and contacts to Outlook.com(fka Hotmail, Live. Msn.com) was
the method MSFT provided. Whether one like the approach or not, it
'was' available and is still available today, once installed[1] since
WLM12 still has the ability to import OE and WM mail into WLM for
copy/move into any email account supporting IMAP. While not all email
accounts support IMAP, the majority do provide IMAP and POP3 support.

I went from OE to WM to WLM, so I'm aware of what they can (not) do.

The bottom line, if you really needed to migrate the options were/are
available...but to do so the underlying requirement and expectedly so
was the need for a MSA account(Outlook/Live/Hotmail/MSn.com or 3rd party
registered email address as an MSA) or the use of IMAP.

Nope, because:

[...]

3. Windows Live Mail is another choice. I also think that's a poor
choice, but it too is a choice.

See my other response. WLM is bug-ridden, bordering on unuseable.

*If* WLM would be a realistic migration path, I would still be on it.

WLM has never been everyone's cup of tea, but when migration is the
concern - it was MSFT provided route. Not using then or now[1] doesn't
negate the option being available from MSFT.

You 'overlooked' my "WLM is bug-ridden, bordering on unuseable."
comment.

Hence WLM was *not* the "MSFT provided route". WLM was not even
adapted to work correctly on Windows 8[.1]. For example not looking at
Contacts and not being backed up by File History (because the WLM Store
Folder is in the wrong place).

WLM is also broken in other areas, such as FUBARring the structure
of imported WM folders and - as I mentioned before - not removing
expired messages from the POP server.

And these are only the WLM bugs which I can somewhat easily recollect
after some three years. There are probably others which I've forgotten.

[1] WLM while no longer available for download from MSFT's servers it
can be obtained via 3rd party hosting sites.

WLM no longer being available from Microsoft is probably a good thing.

[...]

Thus stating that no migration path was/is available from MSFT would be
in error especially since the option was available for over 8 years,
more than sufficient time for OE/WM users implementation.

Was it the best and easiest route? No.
Was/Is a migration route available? Yes

A 'migration route' which ends up with a broken MUA FUBARring your
existing mail, isn't one. Period.

You missed the point. The methods for migration was/is available. Not
perfect but available - which was the basis of your point.

Unfortunately, if still waiting for migration from a a 21 year old
application(OE) or 14 yr old(Vista WM) - it's not going to be something
provided from MSFT's end - development and resources for those programs
ended 12 yrs. ago.

But feel free to keep riding that dead horse, that saddle isn't going
anywhere.


--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ
msft mvp 2007-2016, insider mvp 2016-2018

"...w¡ñ§±¤ñ" wrote

| Good points. When Google faced a class action
| lawsuit from non-gmail users their defense was
| that the people had no case because they should
| know that Google is a spyware company, therefore
| they had no "expectation of privacy".
|
| Matera vs. Google, Northern California District Court
|
| Your above statement is false and quite hilarious

I don't get why you meet everything with
LOL or "hilarious".

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...-email-lawsuit

"Gmail users have no "reasonable expectation" that their communications are
confidential, the internet giant has said in a court filing."

It's easy enough to find other links. Yet you didn't
provide any link yourself.

On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 23:33:37 -0400, Mayayana wrote:

"...w¡ñ§±€ñ" wrote

| The concept of 'real email' - at one time maybe, not anymore, the only
| difference is the brand name of the domain and that is no longer
absolute.
|

Not at all. That's my point. And it seemed to be
what Brick was expressing. If you pay for it it's real email. If you use
gmail then it's their email. As your email address here demonstrates,
you don't care about Google storing and reading your private
correspondence. Many people don't. But that doesn't mean real email is a
thing of the past.

It's also a good way to keep your real email inbox from being flooded from
100's of marketing junk emails. I don't want every business I order from
to have my real email address. I give them the throw away addresses.

I thought the concept of "real email" was commonly used.

I can already check my real email thru multiple devices, and thru an email
client, so I really see no use for gmail or hotmail other than tossing my
junk their way

--
Brick Mortar