I ask out of ignorance

Mayayana wrote:
"Mark Lloyd" wrote

| Interesting. I didn't know about the flammability.
| But gas stoves were used in suicide without the
| flame on. (One of my grandmothers did that. The
| gas never lit. In other words, she was killing herself
| with gas, not CO. My grandfather discovered her with
| her head in the oven. Even natural gas needs a high
| concentration to ignite.)

| Also, natural gas is not poisonous. The problem with a gas-filled space
| is lack of oxygen.
|

Grandma must have timed it well to be gone
just around the time Grandpa came home. He
was a heavy cigar smoker. I always wondered
whether she understood the risk she was imposing
on others. But she had late-stage breast cancer
and in those days there was nothing to be done.
I assume she *thought* she was saving everyone
a lot of trouble.
Maybe natural gas is an easy way to pass out
without struggle? I don't know.

I think it's the urban legend nature of sticking
your head in the oven, that would do it. Maybe on
The Honeymooners there would be a reference to
"taking the gas pipe". and that would popularize the
notion.

*******

https://www.healthline.com/health/gas-leak-symptoms

"Extreme or high levels of exposure may also
cause unconsciousness or death."

Which I suppose, is hypoxia.

Paul

On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 10:12:56 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

"Wolf K" wrote

| It's surprising but true that newspapers are sometimes taken in by these
| tales, especially if the purveyor has added plausible names and dates,
etc.
|

Before you embarass yourself further with your
glib cynicism and even more glib dismissals of others
as being liars or idiots, do a search on this:

Albert Senzatimore carbon monoxide

Numerous newspapers reported the story. The American
Bar Association also did a piece because there was a
somewhat unusual lawsuit involved.

http://www.abajournal.com/news/artic...onoxide_death/

Oddly, so far I haven't found a story about homes
being destroyed by exploding CO gas. Maybe you or
Eric could post a link to that one. Was it the case
of Elmer Fudd vs Daffy Duck, by any chance?

Carbon Monoxide poisoning is usually slow. If it's fast it normally
gives rise to physical symptoms e.g. headache, ataxia, chest pains
etc. A very high level of CO is required to kill within minutes in
which case the concentration is dangerously close to the lower
explosive limit, 12.5% from memory.

I have no doubt that those guys died from CO poisoning but not quite
as described.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 11:39:06 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

Also, natural gas is not poisonous. The problem with a gas-filled space
is lack of oxygen.

Also, natural gas doesn't smell. In the UK there is something added to
make it smell.

Steve
--
http://www.npsnn.com

On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 10:06:38 +0000, Stephen Wolstenholme
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 11:39:06 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

Also, natural gas is not poisonous. The problem with a gas-filled space
is lack of oxygen.

Also, natural gas doesn't smell. In the UK there is something added to
make it smell.

Thiols. They contain sulphur and smell as though they contain
sulphur. Many things containing sulphur smell similar to things that
contain sulphur. Eggy, yolky smell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas#Added_odor

Natural gas is quite dangerous. Knowing when it's around is
potentially a very good idea.

Note: lighting a scented candle to cover the smell of a leak is often
considered to be ill-advised and potentially harmful.

Mand.


Steve

On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 12:24:15 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

A very high level of CO is required to kill within minutes in
which case the concentration is dangerously close to the lower
explosive limit, 12.5% from memory.
Here is a table showing the effect of different levels of CO:

Concentration Symptoms
35 ppm (0.0035%) Headache and dizziness within six to eight
hours of constant exposure
100 ppm (0.01%) Slight headache in two to three hours
200 ppm (0.02%) Slight headache within two to three hours;
loss of judgment
400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours
800 ppm (0.08%) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45
min; insensible within 2 hours
1,600 ppm (0.16%) Headache, increased heart rate, dizziness, and
nausea within 20 min; death in less than 2 hours
3,200 ppm (0.32%) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten
minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
6,400 ppm (0.64%) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes.
Convulsions, respiratory arrest, and death in less than 20 minutes.
12,800 ppm (1.28%) Unconsciousness after 2–3 breaths. Death in
less than three minutes.

So it takes only 1,28 %CO to kill in less than 3 minutes.
--
Jesper Kaas -

Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-11-25 09:55, Jesper Kaas wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 12:24:15 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

A very high level of CO is required to kill within minutes in
which case the concentration is dangerously close to the lower
explosive limit, 12.5% from memory.
Here is a table showing the effect of different levels of CO:

Concentration Symptoms
35 ppm (0.0035%) Headache and dizziness within six to eight
hours of constant exposure
100 ppm (0.01%) Slight headache in two to three hours
200 ppm (0.02%) Slight headache within two to three hours;
loss of judgment
400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours
800 ppm (0.08%) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45
min; insensible within 2 hours
1,600 ppm (0.16%) Headache, increased heart rate, dizziness, and
nausea within 20 min; death in less than 2 hours
3,200 ppm (0.32%) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten
minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
6,400 ppm (0.64%) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes.
Convulsions, respiratory arrest, and death in less than 20 minutes.
12,800 ppm (1.28%) Unconsciousness after 2–3 breaths. Death in
less than three minutes.

So it takes only 1,28 %CO to kill in less than 3 minutes.


Well below flammable/explosive level, then.

Some interesting breadcrumbs here.

https://coldcraft.com/los-gatos-and-...-co-poisoning/

There's a picture of the furnace on that web page.

It looks like an older furnace, not a high efficiency one.
It looks similar to the design of my old furnace, with
convection as the source of airflow.

Now, the interesting part, is the reaction of the officers
who entered the residence.

"Two Truckee Police Department officers found the men dead
inside a home at 13600 Weisshorn Avenue in Tahoe Donner on Oct. 26.

The officers soon began suffering respiratory issues and
left the residence, which had "very high" levels of
carbon monoxide, according to police.
"

Which means there was enough non-CO materials in the air
to trigger lung problems for the officers.

Just like with my furnace, which at 3ppm had me coughing
from the combustion products in the air. You could smell
that exhaust was entering the premises.

Why didn't the victims recognize the same thing ? Even if
one of the victims had impaired olfactory sense, you'd think
the second would recognize something wasn't right. The combustion
products will have you coughing - it's not something you
can exactly ignore.

Paul

On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 12:42:34 -0500, Paul wrote:

Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-11-25 09:55, Jesper Kaas wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 12:24:15 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

A very high level of CO is required to kill within minutes in
which case the concentration is dangerously close to the lower
explosive limit, 12.5% from memory.
Here is a table showing the effect of different levels of CO:

Concentration Symptoms
35 ppm (0.0035%) Headache and dizziness within six to eight
hours of constant exposure
100 ppm (0.01%) Slight headache in two to three hours
200 ppm (0.02%) Slight headache within two to three hours;
loss of judgment
400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours
800 ppm (0.08%) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45
min; insensible within 2 hours
1,600 ppm (0.16%) Headache, increased heart rate, dizziness, and
nausea within 20 min; death in less than 2 hours
3,200 ppm (0.32%) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten
minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
6,400 ppm (0.64%) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes.
Convulsions, respiratory arrest, and death in less than 20 minutes.
12,800 ppm (1.28%) Unconsciousness after 2–3 breaths. Death in
less than three minutes.

So it takes only 1,28 %CO to kill in less than 3 minutes.


Well below flammable/explosive level, then.

Some interesting breadcrumbs here.

https://coldcraft.com/los-gatos-and-...-co-poisoning/

There's a picture of the furnace on that web page.

It looks like an older furnace, not a high efficiency one.
It looks similar to the design of my old furnace, with
convection as the source of airflow.

Now, the interesting part, is the reaction of the officers
who entered the residence.

"Two Truckee Police Department officers found the men dead
inside a home at 13600 Weisshorn Avenue in Tahoe Donner on Oct. 26.

The officers soon began suffering respiratory issues and
left the residence, which had "very high" levels of
carbon monoxide, according to police.
"

Which means there was enough non-CO materials in the air
to trigger lung problems for the officers.

Just like with my furnace, which at 3ppm had me coughing
from the combustion products in the air. You could smell
that exhaust was entering the premises.

Why didn't the victims recognize the same thing ? Even if
one of the victims had impaired olfactory sense, you'd think
the second would recognize something wasn't right. The combustion
products will have you coughing - it's not something you
can exactly ignore.

Why didn't the victims recognize the same thing? Because CO is
colorless, odorless, and tasteless.

I think you're confusing exhaust from your old furnace with CO. The
exhaust most likely _contained_ a small amount of CO, but that's about
it. The majority was smoke of some kind. CO won't have you coughing or
smelling anything unusual.

Humans can't see, smell, or taste CO. That's why CO detectors were
developed.

https://www.cdc.gov/co/faqs.htm
What is Carbon Monoxide?
Carbon monoxide, or “CO,” is an odorless, colorless gas that can kill
you.


Back in the 90's, a friend of mine was feeling sick in the evenings when
she was home and fine during the day when she was at work. Likewise for
her son - sick in the evenings and fine at school. After a few days of
that, her furnace failed and she brought in a repairman. He discovered
that the flue was plugged by a squirrel nest and the furnace exhaust had
been venting into the basement. She and her son were lucky they were
able to wake up each morning while that was going on. Neither of them
smelled anything unusual. If she'd had a CO detector, I'm sure it would
have gone nuts.

On 11/25/18 4:06 AM, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:

[snip]

Also, natural gas doesn't smell. In the UK there is something added to
make it smell.

Steve

I live near New London, Texas. I lost a relative in the school explosion
of 1937. This in in the oilfield, and the school was getting free gas.
The lack of smell led to a large natural gas accumulation in the basement.

From what I heard, this explosion was one reason for introducing the smell.

--
30 days until the winter celebration (Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The Christian religion not only was at first attended with miracles,
but even at this day cannot be believed by any reasonable person without
one." -- David Hume

"Paul" wrote

| The officers soon began suffering respiratory issues and
| left the residence, which had "very high" levels of
| carbon monoxide, according to police.
| "
|
| Which means there was enough non-CO materials in the air
| to trigger lung problems for the officers.
|
| Just like with my furnace, which at 3ppm had me coughing
| from the combustion products in the air. You could smell
| that exhaust was entering the premises.
|
| Why didn't the victims recognize the same thing ?

It doesn't say the cops smelled something. I'm guessing
that even if the two men smelled something, they wouldn't
have left. What would you do? Probably head for the cellar
to see what's wrong, right? Not realizing that you were going
to pass out before you got that far. It would never occur to
me to think, "Oh, something seems to be burning. I'd better
run out the door before I die!"

But with the cops, they already see two dead men and
furnace repair is not part of their job.

.... Leastways that's my guess. At this point we're just
making it up, dressing a meager skeleton of actual facts
with speculation. I'm happy just to confirm that controlling
home appliances with a cellphone remotely is a fatal
addiction.

Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 11:39:06 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

Also, natural gas is not poisonous. The problem with a gas-filled space
is lack of oxygen.

Also, natural gas doesn't smell. In the UK there is something added to
make it smell.

Smelly agent is added in the USA also.

--
Tim Slattery
tim at risingdove dot com

"Tim Slattery" wrote in message
...
Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 11:39:06 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

Also, natural gas is not poisonous. The problem with a gas-filled space
is lack of oxygen.

Also, natural gas doesn't smell. In the UK there is something added to
make it smell.

Smelly agent is added in the USA also.

Mercaptans are the stenching agent that are added. Also present in asparagus
and excreted, by some people, in their urine for several hours afterwards -
I speak as a sufferer of "Asparagus Wee".

I remember when I was working in a chemistry lab during my year off before
university. One of the chemicals we used (I forget what it was) was the
component that gives vomit its repulsive smell. We worked on it *only* in
the fume cupboard. One day the Big Boss was bringing round an important
guest, and he took the official party through our lab. One of my colleagues
was slightly flustered to see all these important guests, and accidentally
knocked over the little bottle of Essence of Puke. Despite the inward
draught of the fume cupboard, enough of the vapour escaped to make a very
noticeable pong. The Big Boss looked very concerned and whispered to my
manager "Is everybody... er, OK. Or has someone just been... ill".


Ah, I've just googled. Butyric acid is the stuff that make puke smell.

Char Jackson wrote:


Why didn't the victims recognize the same thing? Because CO is
colorless, odorless, and tasteless.

I think you're confusing exhaust from your old furnace with CO. The
exhaust most likely _contained_ a small amount of CO, but that's about
it. The majority was smoke of some kind. CO won't have you coughing or
smelling anything unusual.

Humans can't see, smell, or taste CO. That's why CO detectors were
developed.

https://www.cdc.gov/co/faqs.htm
What is Carbon Monoxide?
Carbon monoxide, or “CO,” is an odorless, colorless gas that can kill
you.

Back in the 90's, a friend of mine was feeling sick in the evenings when
she was home and fine during the day when she was at work. Likewise for
her son - sick in the evenings and fine at school. After a few days of
that, her furnace failed and she brought in a repairman. He discovered
that the flue was plugged by a squirrel nest and the furnace exhaust had
been venting into the basement. She and her son were lucky they were
able to wake up each morning while that was going on. Neither of them
smelled anything unusual. If she'd had a CO detector, I'm sure it would
have gone nuts.

You're assuming the failed-combustion process makes pure CO.

It doesn't.

The burned natural gas has a slight acidic quality to it.
I don't know if some of the residue you see coating the
inside of the furnace is due to burned mercaptans, or it's
purely from the gas itself. (There can be white deposits,
sometimes looking like filaments, inside the pipe or box.)
The burning process is far from clean in any case. And this
was an older furnace without forced air. I used to clean
the burner head yearly with a vacuum cleaner, removing the
white dust that fell down into it.

That's why the thermocouple that senses ignition on
my furnace failed. It got enough deposits (not white ones)
on the outside, to impede thermal conductivity. And the
furnace wasn't able to sense a flame. The service tech
cleaned it up a bit, and I was surprised to find it
never needed a second cleaning. The furnace
went for years after that, until the fire box cracked
and started to leak. The reading down at the fire
box wall was 3ppm, and my CO detector with the LED readout
was showing counts. (My CO detector wouldn't match
the $1000 gadget the repair guy had.) My CO detector
didn't alarm, because the level wasn't high enough.
But I could both smell the problem, and cough
in response. The smoke detector didn't go off
(and there's no fog in the air either, it wasn't
something you could see). The whole house smelled
of the effluent, as the air handler had no problem
circulating it uniformly all over the house.

Just for the coughing, I needed to get it fixed.

I think what we can conclude from this is:

1) My furnace was "burning clean". There was a lot of
normal combustion product, and little CO.

2) Your friend had the exact opposite. The burning
process wasn't working properly. The level of CO
backing up in the house, was a lot higher. The question
would be though, why wouldn't the combustion that
was going on, cause you to cough ?

One of the articles in this thread, states that
if a modern furnace plugs up, it's not supposed
to go over 400ppm CO. That's design intent. Only
if the pressure regulator failed, or some goof ball
cranked it wide open, would you achieve higher
levels while the thing was (partially) blocked.
A modern furnace won't run if completely blocked,
because of the sensor for the ventor would trip.

My experience with service people, is they tend
to stay away from the gas valve. They don't fiddle
with it. They'll drip their soap mixture on the
fittings on either side to check for leaks, but
generally are not interested in playing with it.
My assumption was this was a liability issue.
They will replace it, but, that's it. I suppose
only a service tech in Denver, needs to adjust
the thing (for altitude).

Paul

On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 15:55:19 +0100, Jesper Kaas
wrote:

On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 12:24:15 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

A very high level of CO is required to kill within minutes in
which case the concentration is dangerously close to the lower
explosive limit, 12.5% from memory.
Here is a table showing the effect of different levels of CO:

Concentration Symptoms
35 ppm (0.0035%) Headache and dizziness within six to eight
hours of constant exposure
100 ppm (0.01%) Slight headache in two to three hours
200 ppm (0.02%) Slight headache within two to three hours;
loss of judgment
400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours
800 ppm (0.08%) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45
min; insensible within 2 hours
1,600 ppm (0.16%) Headache, increased heart rate, dizziness, and
nausea within 20 min; death in less than 2 hours
3,200 ppm (0.32%) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten
minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
6,400 ppm (0.64%) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes.
Convulsions, respiratory arrest, and death in less than 20 minutes.
12,800 ppm (1.28%) Unconsciousness after 2–3 breaths. Death in
less than three minutes.

So it takes only 1,28 %CO to kill in less than 3 minutes.

The lower explosive limit is 12.5%. My mental gears must have jumped a
cog with that 12,800 ppm you cited. Its been a long time since I
worked with this. Maybe I was getting confused with the behaviour of
CO when contaminated with hydrogen.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

NY wrote:

I remember when I was working in a chemistry lab during my year off
before university. One of the chemicals we used (I forget what it was)
was the component that gives vomit its repulsive smell. We worked on it
*only* in the fume cupboard. One day the Big Boss was bringing round an
important guest, and he took the official party through our lab. One of
my colleagues was slightly flustered to see all these important guests,
and accidentally knocked over the little bottle of Essence of Puke.
Despite the inward draught of the fume cupboard, enough of the vapour
escaped to make a very noticeable pong. The Big Boss looked very
concerned and whispered to my manager "Is everybody... er, OK. Or has
someone just been... ill".

Ah, I've just googled. Butyric acid is the stuff that make puke smell.

They warn you about butyric acid in class.

Of all the things to knock over.

Paul

On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 18:13:06 -0500, Paul wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:


Why didn't the victims recognize the same thing? Because CO is
colorless, odorless, and tasteless.

I think you're confusing exhaust from your old furnace with CO. The
exhaust most likely _contained_ a small amount of CO, but that's about
it. The majority was smoke of some kind. CO won't have you coughing or
smelling anything unusual.

Humans can't see, smell, or taste CO. That's why CO detectors were
developed.

https://www.cdc.gov/co/faqs.htm
What is Carbon Monoxide?
Carbon monoxide, or “CO,” is an odorless, colorless gas that can kill
you.

Back in the 90's, a friend of mine was feeling sick in the evenings when
she was home and fine during the day when she was at work. Likewise for
her son - sick in the evenings and fine at school. After a few days of
that, her furnace failed and she brought in a repairman. He discovered
that the flue was plugged by a squirrel nest and the furnace exhaust had
been venting into the basement. She and her son were lucky they were
able to wake up each morning while that was going on. Neither of them
smelled anything unusual. If she'd had a CO detector, I'm sure it would
have gone nuts.

You're assuming the failed-combustion process makes pure CO.

That wasn't my assumption at all, and I said as much above. Here's what
I said:
I think you're confusing exhaust from your old furnace with CO. The
exhaust most likely _contained_ a small amount of CO, but that's about
it. The majority was smoke of some kind. CO won't have you coughing or
smelling anything unusual.

It doesn't.

Actually, I was just pointing out that you weren't coughing from CO.