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Migrate win10 FROM SSD to spinning HDD?



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 23rd 18, 06:28 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 185
Default Migrate win10 FROM SSD to spinning HDD?

I've been attempting to get some win7-32 systems converted to win10-64
and be FULLY functional. The bitness issue removes the option to let
windows 10 just fix everything it can during the upgrade.

I finally managed to get a workable test system.
It has a SSD.
I don't want to dedicate an SSD to this system, so I thought I'd
just backup C: with Macrium Reflect and restore it to a spinner.
That's normally worked just great between two spinners.

This restored HDD boots as far as the window screen with the
rotating dots...and hangs there forever.
If I run the Macrium "fix boot issues", now the system
locks up because it can't find some file on the disk.
Sorry, I don't remember which file, but it was some sort
of boot thing. It recommends C:\windows, but entering
that doesn't help.
Tried using Disk Genius to rebuild the partition table.
I'm going from bad to worse.

I've done this many times between spinners.
What do I need to do to transfer from
a SSD TO a HDD?

There are zillions of tutorials on going from HDD to SSD,
but I've not found anything useful for the opposite direction.

Yes, I could workaround this by reinstalling win10 to the spinner.
But, for another system, a Macrium system backup is gonna
be useless if the drive fails and I have to put it back on a HDD.
This issue needs a solution.
Ads
  #2  
Old November 23rd 18, 07:36 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Migrate win10 FROM SSD to spinning HDD?

Mike wrote:
I've been attempting to get some win7-32 systems converted to win10-64
and be FULLY functional. The bitness issue removes the option to let
windows 10 just fix everything it can during the upgrade.

I finally managed to get a workable test system.
It has a SSD.
I don't want to dedicate an SSD to this system, so I thought I'd
just backup C: with Macrium Reflect and restore it to a spinner.
That's normally worked just great between two spinners.

This restored HDD boots as far as the window screen with the
rotating dots...and hangs there forever.
If I run the Macrium "fix boot issues", now the system
locks up because it can't find some file on the disk.
Sorry, I don't remember which file, but it was some sort
of boot thing. It recommends C:\windows, but entering
that doesn't help.
Tried using Disk Genius to rebuild the partition table.
I'm going from bad to worse.

I've done this many times between spinners.
What do I need to do to transfer from
a SSD TO a HDD?

There are zillions of tutorials on going from HDD to SSD,
but I've not found anything useful for the opposite direction.

Yes, I could workaround this by reinstalling win10 to the spinner.
But, for another system, a Macrium system backup is gonna
be useless if the drive fails and I have to put it back on a HDD.
This issue needs a solution.


I went through your post a second time, and this stands out:

"so I thought I'd just backup C: ======================= hmmm
with Macrium Reflect and restore it to a spinner."

Try the following.

Boot from the SSD.

Right click start and select Disk Management.

I bet you have

System Reserved C: partition
"Active,System" "Boot"

Now, you grab Macrium and *only* back up C: , leaving
the partition with "Active,System" behind. I'm guessing
a train wreck is coming.

If you could examine System Reserved (like use TestDisk and "List Files"),
you would see a /Boot folder on System Reserved. It has the BCD file
for the boot process. And as well, the "Active" or 0x80 Boot Flag
mark on the partition, is part of the boot sequence as well.

The MBR boot code, for a Windows OS, scans for a boot flag.
It sees the boot flag on System Reserved (in this case), and
then loads the Partition Boot Sector at the beginning of the
partition.

If you outsmart windows, by not copying all the partitions,
there will be hell to pay.

Note that it is possible to move everything to a single
partition. You could have this for example.

C: partition
"Active,System,Boot"

And the nomenclature there, the System means "the stuff you boot
from", generally a small amount of files. The materials on a
System partition might only need a 350MB partition.

Whereas the Boot partition is your C: drive and has Windows on it.

The nomenclature is the *reverse* of what ordinary people
would expect of the labeling scheme.

*Always* review disks in Disk Management first, before
formulating a plan of attack. As you will get hints about
what pieces *must* be copied over.

Included here, are samples of two Win10 setups. The Release (on SSD)
at the top, the Insider (on HDD) on the bottom. Release is 17763,
Insider(s) are in the 18xxx range. I installed two OSes on the Insider
version, to test the thoroughness of the Win10 installer logic :-)

https://i.postimg.cc/SNB9kKRT/instal...m-reserved.jpg

Paul
  #3  
Old November 23rd 18, 11:20 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 185
Default Migrate win10 FROM SSD to spinning HDD?

On 11/22/2018 10:36 PM, Paul wrote:
Mike wrote:
I've been attempting to get some win7-32 systems converted to win10-64
and be FULLY functional.Â* The bitness issue removes the option to let
windows 10 just fix everything it can during the upgrade.

I finally managed to get a workable test system.
It has a SSD.
I don't want to dedicate an SSD to this system, so I thought I'd
just backup C: with Macrium Reflect and restore it to a spinner.
That's normally worked just great between two spinners.

This restored HDD boots as far as the window screen with the
rotating dots...and hangs there forever.
If I run the Macrium "fix boot issues", now the system
locks up because it can't find some file on the disk.
Sorry, I don't remember which file, but it was some sort
of boot thing.Â* It recommends C:\windows, but entering
that doesn't help.
Tried using Disk Genius to rebuild the partition table.
I'm going from bad to worse.

I've done this many times between spinners.
What do I need to do to transfer from
a SSD TO a HDD?

There are zillions of tutorials on going from HDD to SSD,
but I've not found anything useful for the opposite direction.

Yes, I could workaround this by reinstalling win10 to the spinner.
But, for another system, a Macrium system backup is gonna
be useless if the drive fails and I have to put it back on a HDD.
This issue needs a solution.


I went through your post a second time, and this stands out:

Â*Â* "so I thought I'd just backup C:Â* ======================= hmmm
Â*Â*Â* with Macrium Reflect and restore it to a spinner."

Try the following.

Boot from the SSD.

Right click start and select Disk Management.

I bet you have

Â*Â*Â* System ReservedÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* C: partition
Â*Â*Â* "Active,System"Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* "Boot"

Now, you grab Macrium and *only* back up C: , leaving
the partition with "Active,System" behind. I'm guessing
a train wreck is coming.

If you could examine System Reserved (like use TestDisk and "List Files"),
you would see a /Boot folder on System Reserved. It has the BCD file
for the boot process. And as well, the "Active" or 0x80 Boot Flag
mark on the partition, is part of the boot sequence as well.

The MBR boot code, for a Windows OS, scans for a boot flag.
It sees the boot flag on System Reserved (in this case), and
then loads the Partition Boot Sector at the beginning of the
partition.

If you outsmart windows, by not copying all the partitions,
there will be hell to pay.

Note that it is possible to move everything to a single
partition. You could have this for example.

Â*Â*Â* C: partition
Â*Â*Â* "Active,System,Boot"

And the nomenclature there, the System means "the stuff you boot
from", generally a small amount of files. The materials on a
System partition might only need a 350MB partition.

Whereas the Boot partition is your C: drive and has Windows on it.

The nomenclature is the *reverse* of what ordinary people
would expect of the labeling scheme.

*Always* review disks in Disk Management first, before
formulating a plan of attack. As you will get hints about
what pieces *must* be copied over.

Included here, are samples of two Win10 setups. The Release (on SSD)
at the top, the Insider (on HDD) on the bottom. Release is 17763,
Insider(s) are in the 18xxx range. I installed two OSes on the Insider
version, to test the thoroughness of the Win10 installer logic :-)

https://i.postimg.cc/SNB9kKRT/instal...m-reserved.jpg

Â*Â* Paul



Thanks for the input.
Yes, I outsmart windows, but in a different way.

I use a partitioning app from Hirens to format the drive with TWO
partitions, C: and D:. I also insure that they are properly aligned
for SSD.
The disk is full and there is no system reserved partition.

If you install windows and don't let it format C:, it doesn't
create any of it's other partitions. All the boot stuff is on C:.

When you ask Macrium to backup everything required to reinstall windows,
it selects C: and you're good to go.

I started doing this back in the day when I wanted FOUR primary partitions
for multiboot. It has worked flawlessly, until now.

Having said that...
All my previous experiments were with 32-bit operating systems.
I can't guarantee that I've ever restored a windows-10 64-bit system.

I don't have a system I can sacrifice to do the test. Too many moving
parts to risk it.

I'll have to build yet another one to do the test and get back to you.
It's gonna take a while...

There's one other wrinkle that showed up that might be related...or not...
I had a win10-64 v1607, I think, that I spent several days on
downloads and failed updates. Finally gave up, used mediacreation tool
to create a USB thumb drive with both 32 and 64-bit v1809.

Just my luck, this was in the middle of the activation server fiasco.

Spent another couple of days trying to get 64-bit 1809 installed.
It had several different weird symptoms related to not being able
to find files. After 50GB of incomplete/corrupt downloads
on the system, I wiped the drive. 32-bit 1809 installed from the thumb
drive without a hitch. OKay... I ran mediacreation tool again and
created a 64-bit
v1809 DVD. That installed without a hitch.




  #4  
Old November 23rd 18, 05:33 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
😉 Good Guy 😉
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,483
Default Migrate win10 FROM SSD to spinning HDD?

On 23/11/2018 05:28, Mike wrote:



This issue needs a solution.


Do a fresh install of Windows 10 and use your Windows 7 key to activate
it. It may or may not work but worth a try. You have nothing to lose
as the new disk is blank.

This is something what everybody should be doing before coming here and
asking silly questions.



--
With over 950 million devices now running Windows 10, customer
satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.

  #5  
Old November 23rd 18, 10:21 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 185
Default Migrate win10 FROM SSD to spinning HDD?

On 11/23/2018 8:33 AM, 😉 Abrasive Guy 😉 wrote:
On 23/11/2018 05:28, Mike wrote:



This issue needs a solution.


Do a fresh install of Windows 10 and use your Windows 7 key to activate
it.Â* It may or may not work but worth a try.Â* You have nothing to lose
as the new disk is blank.

This is something what everybody should be doing before coming here and
asking silly questions.


Glad I was able to amuse you.
The question was not about installing win 10. Hardware has digital
entitlement.
The question was about restoring a backup when win10 gets it's panties
in a twist.
  #6  
Old November 24th 18, 01:23 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 185
Default Migrate win10 FROM SSD to spinning HDD?

On 11/22/2018 10:36 PM, Paul wrote:
Mike wrote:
I've been attempting to get some win7-32 systems converted to win10-64
and be FULLY functional.Â* The bitness issue removes the option to let
windows 10 just fix everything it can during the upgrade.

I finally managed to get a workable test system.
It has a SSD.
I don't want to dedicate an SSD to this system, so I thought I'd
just backup C: with Macrium Reflect and restore it to a spinner.
That's normally worked just great between two spinners.

This restored HDD boots as far as the window screen with the
rotating dots...and hangs there forever.
If I run the Macrium "fix boot issues", now the system
locks up because it can't find some file on the disk.
Sorry, I don't remember which file, but it was some sort
of boot thing.Â* It recommends C:\windows, but entering
that doesn't help.
Tried using Disk Genius to rebuild the partition table.
I'm going from bad to worse.

I've done this many times between spinners.
What do I need to do to transfer from
a SSD TO a HDD?

There are zillions of tutorials on going from HDD to SSD,
but I've not found anything useful for the opposite direction.

Yes, I could workaround this by reinstalling win10 to the spinner.
But, for another system, a Macrium system backup is gonna
be useless if the drive fails and I have to put it back on a HDD.
This issue needs a solution.


I went through your post a second time, and this stands out:

Â*Â* "so I thought I'd just backup C:Â* ======================= hmmm
Â*Â*Â* with Macrium Reflect and restore it to a spinner."

Try the following.

Boot from the SSD.

Right click start and select Disk Management.

I bet you have

Â*Â*Â* System ReservedÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* C: partition
Â*Â*Â* "Active,System"Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* "Boot"

Now, you grab Macrium and *only* back up C: , leaving
the partition with "Active,System" behind. I'm guessing
a train wreck is coming.

If you could examine System Reserved (like use TestDisk and "List Files"),
you would see a /Boot folder on System Reserved. It has the BCD file
for the boot process. And as well, the "Active" or 0x80 Boot Flag
mark on the partition, is part of the boot sequence as well.

The MBR boot code, for a Windows OS, scans for a boot flag.
It sees the boot flag on System Reserved (in this case), and
then loads the Partition Boot Sector at the beginning of the
partition.

If you outsmart windows, by not copying all the partitions,
there will be hell to pay.

Note that it is possible to move everything to a single
partition. You could have this for example.

Â*Â*Â* C: partition
Â*Â*Â* "Active,System,Boot"

And the nomenclature there, the System means "the stuff you boot
from", generally a small amount of files. The materials on a
System partition might only need a 350MB partition.

Whereas the Boot partition is your C: drive and has Windows on it.

The nomenclature is the *reverse* of what ordinary people
would expect of the labeling scheme.

*Always* review disks in Disk Management first, before
formulating a plan of attack. As you will get hints about
what pieces *must* be copied over.

Included here, are samples of two Win10 setups. The Release (on SSD)
at the top, the Insider (on HDD) on the bottom. Release is 17763,
Insider(s) are in the 18xxx range. I installed two OSes on the Insider
version, to test the thoroughness of the Win10 installer logic :-)

https://i.postimg.cc/SNB9kKRT/instal...m-reserved.jpg

Â*Â* Paul


I did several win 10-1803 64-bit Macrium backup/restore operations with
my test machine B using
spinning HDD. No issues at all. The drive has only two partitions, C:
and D:. There are no, zero, not any additional restore or boot partitions.

I have machine A running win1064 on a SSD. Again, only two partitions
C: and D:.
I removed the SSD from machine A and put it into machine B. It booted,
fixed up
the driver differences and works fine.
I backed up C: with macrium. (backup everything required to restore windows)
I restored that backup to a different HDD in the same machine B.

When it try to boot it, I get a blue screen
RECOVERY, your PC device needs to be repaired.
error 0xC000000E
It can't find windows\system32\winload.exe
Claims that there will be a log file in system32\logfiles\srt\trail.text.
When I look at the contents of the restored drive (in another machine),
there is
no srt directory and hence no trail.text.
I inserted the win10 CD and repaired the system. "windows cannot repair
your
your system.)


It's also weird that there are no drive letters assigned. I have to use
disk management to assign drive letters so I can read it.

Both the working SSD and the non-booting HDD have a winload.exe file
with the same contents.

There are a few differences (19 out of 4275) in the files in system32.
I believe those
are Nvidia driver files. I didn't reboot after I put the disk in machine B
I think those are the driver .dlls that got changed when the SSD swapped
computers.

I'm putting off restoring back to the SSD, because it's the last one I have
and I don't want to destroy the audit trail until I've exhausted the
possible fixes.

Another wrinkle is that this SSD is a
Kingston SV200S3256G.
It's a very old drive right at the transition from crap to usable SSD's.
There was a firmware update for the 64 and 128GB versions, but not the 256.
When I try to TRIM it, the OS claims it's being TRIMMed, but it's my
understanding that
it's only a suggestion to the drive and no feedback confirms.
All I can find at Kingston is that "some older drives don't support TRIM."

After more thinking, I determined that the boot flag is not set on the HDD.
I couldn't figure out how to set it in windows, so I booted linux
and started gparted.

gparted thinks the spinner first partition is 238GB instead of the 97GB
that windows thinks. I set the boot flag anyway and rebooted.
The HDD still won't boot. When I boot the SDD and use disk management
to look at the HDD, it thinks it's a 238GB EFI partition.

Obviously, I have no idea what I'm doin'. I'm gonna take a nap...I am an
expert at naps...

Looks like a HDD/SSD compatibility issue.
There are lots of tutorials on changing from HDD to SSD, but I expect
not many people are swapping the other way.

Ideas?
  #7  
Old November 24th 18, 07:52 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Migrate win10 FROM SSD to spinning HDD?

Mike wrote:
On 11/22/2018 10:36 PM, Paul wrote:
Mike wrote:
I've been attempting to get some win7-32 systems converted to win10-64
and be FULLY functional. The bitness issue removes the option to let
windows 10 just fix everything it can during the upgrade.

I finally managed to get a workable test system.
It has a SSD.
I don't want to dedicate an SSD to this system, so I thought I'd
just backup C: with Macrium Reflect and restore it to a spinner.
That's normally worked just great between two spinners.

This restored HDD boots as far as the window screen with the
rotating dots...and hangs there forever.
If I run the Macrium "fix boot issues", now the system
locks up because it can't find some file on the disk.
Sorry, I don't remember which file, but it was some sort
of boot thing. It recommends C:\windows, but entering
that doesn't help.
Tried using Disk Genius to rebuild the partition table.
I'm going from bad to worse.

I've done this many times between spinners.
What do I need to do to transfer from
a SSD TO a HDD?

There are zillions of tutorials on going from HDD to SSD,
but I've not found anything useful for the opposite direction.

Yes, I could workaround this by reinstalling win10 to the spinner.
But, for another system, a Macrium system backup is gonna
be useless if the drive fails and I have to put it back on a HDD.
This issue needs a solution.


I went through your post a second time, and this stands out:

"so I thought I'd just backup C: ======================= hmmm
with Macrium Reflect and restore it to a spinner."

Try the following.

Boot from the SSD.

Right click start and select Disk Management.

I bet you have

System Reserved C: partition
"Active,System" "Boot"

Now, you grab Macrium and *only* back up C: , leaving
the partition with "Active,System" behind. I'm guessing
a train wreck is coming.

If you could examine System Reserved (like use TestDisk and "List
Files"),
you would see a /Boot folder on System Reserved. It has the BCD file
for the boot process. And as well, the "Active" or 0x80 Boot Flag
mark on the partition, is part of the boot sequence as well.

The MBR boot code, for a Windows OS, scans for a boot flag.
It sees the boot flag on System Reserved (in this case), and
then loads the Partition Boot Sector at the beginning of the
partition.

If you outsmart windows, by not copying all the partitions,
there will be hell to pay.

Note that it is possible to move everything to a single
partition. You could have this for example.

C: partition
"Active,System,Boot"

And the nomenclature there, the System means "the stuff you boot
from", generally a small amount of files. The materials on a
System partition might only need a 350MB partition.

Whereas the Boot partition is your C: drive and has Windows on it.

The nomenclature is the *reverse* of what ordinary people
would expect of the labeling scheme.

*Always* review disks in Disk Management first, before
formulating a plan of attack. As you will get hints about
what pieces *must* be copied over.

Included here, are samples of two Win10 setups. The Release (on SSD)
at the top, the Insider (on HDD) on the bottom. Release is 17763,
Insider(s) are in the 18xxx range. I installed two OSes on the Insider
version, to test the thoroughness of the Win10 installer logic :-)

https://i.postimg.cc/SNB9kKRT/instal...m-reserved.jpg


Paul


I did several win 10-1803 64-bit Macrium backup/restore operations with
my test machine B using
spinning HDD. No issues at all. The drive has only two partitions, C:
and D:. There are no, zero, not any additional restore or boot
partitions.

I have machine A running win1064 on a SSD. Again, only two partitions
C: and D:.
I removed the SSD from machine A and put it into machine B. It booted,
fixed up
the driver differences and works fine.
I backed up C: with macrium. (backup everything required to restore
windows)
I restored that backup to a different HDD in the same machine B.

When it try to boot it, I get a blue screen
RECOVERY, your PC device needs to be repaired.
error 0xC000000E
It can't find windows\system32\winload.exe
Claims that there will be a log file in system32\logfiles\srt\trail.text.
When I look at the contents of the restored drive (in another machine),
there is
no srt directory and hence no trail.text.
I inserted the win10 CD and repaired the system. "windows cannot repair
your
your system.)


It's also weird that there are no drive letters assigned. I have to use
disk management to assign drive letters so I can read it.

Both the working SSD and the non-booting HDD have a winload.exe file
with the same contents.

There are a few differences (19 out of 4275) in the files in system32. I
believe those
are Nvidia driver files. I didn't reboot after I put the disk in machine B
I think those are the driver .dlls that got changed when the SSD swapped
computers.

I'm putting off restoring back to the SSD, because it's the last one I have
and I don't want to destroy the audit trail until I've exhausted the
possible fixes.

Another wrinkle is that this SSD is a
Kingston SV200S3256G.
It's a very old drive right at the transition from crap to usable SSD's.
There was a firmware update for the 64 and 128GB versions, but not the 256.
When I try to TRIM it, the OS claims it's being TRIMMed, but it's my
understanding that
it's only a suggestion to the drive and no feedback confirms.
All I can find at Kingston is that "some older drives don't support TRIM."

After more thinking, I determined that the boot flag is not set on the HDD.
I couldn't figure out how to set it in windows, so I booted linux
and started gparted.

gparted thinks the spinner first partition is 238GB instead of the 97GB
that windows thinks. I set the boot flag anyway and rebooted.
The HDD still won't boot. When I boot the SDD and use disk management
to look at the HDD, it thinks it's a 238GB EFI partition.

Obviously, I have no idea what I'm doin'. I'm gonna take a nap...I am an
expert at naps...

Looks like a HDD/SSD compatibility issue.
There are lots of tutorials on changing from HDD to SSD, but I expect
not many people are swapping the other way.

Ideas?


My guess is, it needs more nap.

About the only thing I can offer, is that the file system inside
a partition space, doesn't have to fill it. The "envelope" declared
in the partition table (in the MBR) might say 238GB for example,
but you could define a 97GB NTFS partition inside the envelope,
leaving 141GB of unused clusters at the end.

When GParted changes partition size, it makes that information
pretty explicit. On an Expand, it increases the envelope first
(updates partition table), then it increases the dimensions
of the file system. If Shrinking, it decreases the dimensions
of the file system first, than shrinks the envelope as the
next step.

If a resize operation on another OS "fails", only one of the
two operations may have got done at the failure point. The
result is that the file system dimensions no longer "match"
the envelope dimensions in the partition table.

I've had one report of this from a *Windows* user, using the
built-in Disk Management capabilities. So this type of
failure is also possible on Windows. The difference is, Windows
hides what it's doing. Linux leaves the details sitting in
the status window for all to see. And that's how you get a
hint as to how it works.

You can try the "disktype" utility on it. I have a Cygwin
version for usage on Windows (disktype.exe and two Cygwin DLLs).
Linux has it too (have to install it from Package Manager).
I use PTEDIT32.exe (was available for free) on Windows, when
I want the envelope dimensions from the MBR.

https://community.norton.com/de/syst...screenshot.JPG

You could also work on this manually with ntfsresize
(some research likely required).

*******

One other thing I learned the other day... I used to think
the MBR boot code was 446 bytes long, the partition table 64
bytes, the signature 2 bytes (total 512). In fact the boot
code is 440 bytes long or so, and at the end of the boot
code is a disk identifier.

When I had a Windows update remove GRUB, I decided to put it
back by transferring 446 bytes from a working setup.
The system still wouldn't boot and it could not find
winload.exe. And this is because, by copying the 446 bytes,
I also copied the disk identifier off the other disk drive.
When the MBR started booting, it used that identifier
when figuring out disk identifiers, and as a result
"couldn't find its own disk". Doing a Macrium boot repair,
fixed up the identifiers and then it would boot. So the
next time I do that, I'll be testing with a number
less than 446 :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_boot_record

"Structure of a modern standard MBR"

+440 32-bit disk signature \
\___ The stuff I should
+444 0000hex (5A5Ahex if copy-protected) / not have overwritten.

+446 Partition entry â„–1...
"

sudo dd if=/dev/sda of=/dev/sdb bs=440 count=1
or
dd.exe if=\\?\Device\Harddisk0\Partition0 f=\\?\Device\Harddisk1\Partition0 bs=440 count=1

Paul

 




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