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#16
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Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?
In message , Mark Lloyd
writes: On 08/11/2018 05:07 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: [snip] I can't see why they can't be sandboxed/emulated/whatever, so each runs in its own block of memory. Using two layers of -/-/- if necessary. Wherever the "handles" have different bit lengths, if WOW32 and WOW64 can handle the differences for one level of change, then surely together they should be able to handle both. You could always run a virtual machine with 16 or 32 bit Windows. But I need a Windows licence for those. The WOWs don't. (This is just an academic curiosity; (a) I'm at present on a 32-bit machine anyway, (b) I don't have anything 16-bit - that I can think of, anyway, except possibly XTGold [if that's 16-bit], and I can easily live without that - that I'd _want_ to run on 64-bit if I _did_ go there. I'm just curious why the two WOWs can't be "nested".) -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf Tact is the ability to describe others as they see themselves. -Abraham Lincoln, 16th president of the U.S (1809-1865) |
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#17
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Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?
VanguardLH wrote:
.... VirtualBox can run software inside a VM but pretty much mask that is happening, so the user thinks they are running VM'ed programs in a guest OS just like the other programs that are running in the host OS. I've done that with some family that had ancient greeting card software, wanted to keep using it, but just had to get a later version of Windows (sometimes with valid reason because other software they wanted to use wouldn't run on the ancient OS version). Just curious. Which ancient greeting card software? The Print Shop? Do I assume, it prints correctly and well from the VM? -- Quote of the Week: "Where there is sugar, there are bound to be ants." --Malay Proverb Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly. /\___/\Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org / http://antfarm.ma.cx / /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit- | |o o| | ing, then please kindly use Ant nickname and URL/link. \ _ / ( ) |
#18
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Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?
Ant wrote:
VanguardLH wrote: ... VirtualBox can run software inside a VM but pretty much mask that is happening, so the user thinks they are running VM'ed programs in a guest OS just like the other programs that are running in the host OS. I've done that with some family that had ancient greeting card software, wanted to keep using it, but just had to get a later version of Windows (sometimes with valid reason because other software they wanted to use wouldn't run on the ancient OS version). Just curious. Which ancient greeting card software? The Print Shop? Do I assume, it prints correctly and well from the VM? I was never into that type of software. My aunt also used to have fun making her own greeting cards and then gluing glitter to it. Everyone that got one of her cards ended up with glitter remnants all over their floor, especially in the carpet. Years after she stopped doing that, I still occasionally find some glitter the vacuum cleaner and carpet washer had missed. I told her I would no longer accept any cards from here if it had glitter. So did the rest of the family. Right now, she is still using Windows XP on her home PC. Even when she moved to XP, she had problems with even older software. My aunt is a hoarder: nothing gets discarded if it has a use. In fact, she will keep stuff that could be useful to someone else but she doesn't know who, so she hoards it just in case she finds someone. I would use VirtualBox on her home PC to let her keep using the really old greeting card and other software until she eventually upgraded to a newer version or something better and newer, and that could take years. Does she toss out the old replaced software? Hell no. She just leaves the box sitting on the shelf (yep, she keeps the boxes, too, and everything that was inside, including limited offers that expired over a decade ago). When you visit her home, there are narrow aisles for walking past all her trash. When she dies and I'm stuck with the house, either I'll get 4-5 dumpsters and have some friends help with a trashing party or there'll be an accidental fire. She still has Zip disks and drives, 8" Pelican floppies, horse books (for when she used to ride some 40 years ago but stopped when the horse got killed when it escaped and got hit by a truck). Her current house was built in 1962 but her furnishings were dated when they went into that house. She keeps twist ties from baggies: I don't mean a handful but drawers (that's plural) full of them. She uses teflon pots that have less than half the teflon left. So as to how old is the greeting card software, well, when did it first start coming out? I think she still has some old DOS software on the shelf. Remember Wordstar and Multiplan? Those are on her shelves. |
#19
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Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
Mark Lloyd WROTE: You could always run a virtual machine with 16 or 32 bit Windows. But I need a Windows licence for those. The WOWs don't. Yes, you need a license for the WOWs, too. They come bundled in Windows, and you need a license for Windows. Microsoft doesn't dole out the WOWs independently of Windows. The license doesn't allow you to dissect Windows into pieces to redistribute them separately. I'm just curious why the two WOWs can't be "nested". I doubt you'll find anyone expert as an OS-level programmer here. Rather than have a WOW have its sytem calls redirected by another WOW, and so on in a chain, just having each WOW would be sufficient. Whether chained or supplied separately, supplying the WOW means having to support it. Microsoft is long done with the DOS and 9x kernels as well as the NT 3.x, 4.0, and 5.x kernels and the same for old WOW emulators on old and unsupported versions of Windows. Backwards compatibility doesn't mean you get to run ancient software on the newest OS. Backwards compatibility does not extend indefinitely into the past. I don't know why it is so hard for you to grasp that when a vendor stops supporting a product then they are not going to continue supporting it or any part of they don't want to support. They could provide their own VM integrated into the latest version of Windows with images to run Windows 9x, Windows 3.11, Windows 386 and 286, the 2 dozen MS/IBM-DOS versions (well, they'd have to multi-boot to DOS since it wants direct hardware access, especially memory, which is banned in the NT kernel) but they don't support those, either. They could provide integrated VMs for other operating systems, like Ubuntu, IBM VSE, MVS, and VM, 1100 Exec, Seattle DOS, DOSBOX, OS/2, MacOS, iOS, Android, CP/M, VAX, NeXT, AmigaOS, and Atari but they don't suppose those, either. |
#20
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Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?
"VanguardLH" wrote
| You could always run a virtual machine with 16 or 32 bit Windows. | | But I need a Windows licence for those. The WOWs don't. | | Yes, you need a license for the WOWs, too. I think he meant he would have to buy a new copy of a Win32 OS to run in a VM on a 64-bit OS, in order to run 16-bit software. I find it odd that people so often talk about VMs without acknowledging the high cost in both processing power and licenses. As though it actually makes sense to run an OS inside an OS. The AppleSeeds are especially weird that way. You say Macs lack software and they answer that you can run Windows in BootCamp. Sure, if you want to pay $300 for a Pro license, in addition to the high price of a Mac. I can buy a Windows PC for about $400, so their logic doesn't make sense. |
#21
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Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?
VanguardLH wrote:
Ant wrote: VanguardLH wrote: ... VirtualBox can run software inside a VM but pretty much mask that is happening, so the user thinks they are running VM'ed programs in a guest OS just like the other programs that are running in the host OS. I've done that with some family that had ancient greeting card software, wanted to keep using it, but just had to get a later version of Windows (sometimes with valid reason because other software they wanted to use wouldn't run on the ancient OS version). Just curious. Which ancient greeting card software? The Print Shop? Do I assume, it prints correctly and well from the VM? I was never into that type of software. My aunt also used to have fun making her own greeting cards and then gluing glitter to it. Everyone that got one of her cards ended up with glitter remnants all over their floor, especially in the carpet. Years after she stopped doing that, I still occasionally find some glitter the vacuum cleaner and carpet washer had missed. I told her I would no longer accept any cards from here if it had glitter. So did the rest of the family. Ugh, I hate that too. I just use basic inket printer with images and texts. Nothing fancy! Right now, she is still using Windows XP on her home PC. Even when she moved to XP, she had problems with even older software. My aunt is a hoarder: nothing gets discarded if it has a use. In fact, she will keep stuff that could be useful to someone else but she doesn't know who, so she hoards it just in case she finds someone. I would use VirtualBox on her home PC to let her keep using the really old greeting card and other software until she eventually upgraded to a newer version or something better and newer, and that could take years. Does she toss out the old replaced software? Hell no. She just leaves the box sitting on the shelf (yep, she keeps the boxes, too, and everything that was inside, including limited offers that expired over a decade ago). When you visit her home, there are narrow aisles for walking past all her trash. When she dies and I'm stuck with the house, either I'll get 4-5 dumpsters and have some friends help with a trashing party or there'll be an accidental fire. I still use lots of old stuff too as long as they still work and useful like my HP Photosmart 8450 printer from 2006, Belkin OmniCube KVM from Y2K, etc. Anything that aren't useful, then they go bye bye like trash, donations, sales, etc. Lots of old people love to keep lots of old stuff. Look at those estate sales! :O She still has Zip disks and drives, 8" Pelican floppies, horse books (for when she used to ride some 40 years ago but stopped when the horse got killed when it escaped and got hit by a truck). Her current house was built in 1962 but her furnishings were dated when they went into that house. She keeps twist ties from baggies: I don't mean a handful but drawers (that's plural) full of them. She uses teflon pots that have less than half the teflon left. Wow. Old tech stuff. Useless to me these days. I never used 8" floppy disks. I remember seeing them in high school. I never knew they existed that those sizes. I only had and used 5.25" floppy disks since my Apple //c. Heh. So as to how old is the greeting card software, well, when did it first start coming out? I think she still has some old DOS software on the shelf. Remember Wordstar and Multiplan? Those are on her shelves. I remember using The Print Shop on Apple 2s. I was still using it in Windows as well, but it got too slow and bloated with crap with online stuff. Remember Print Master for DOS? I used that too! Wow, I remember Wordstar. I never heard of and used Multiplan. I do remember Word and WordPerfect in DOS. These days, I just use HP Photo Creations since it is free. I still hates it online requirement and bloatness. Hence, why I was asking. -- Quote of the Week: "Where there is sugar, there are bound to be ants." --Malay Proverb Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly. /\___/\Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org / http://antfarm.ma.cx / /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit- | |o o| | ing, then please kindly use Ant nickname and URL/link. \ _ / ( ) |
#22
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Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?
On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 07:21:16 +1200, Ralph Fox wrote:
On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 14:03:47 -0400, Mayayana wrote: As though it actually makes sense to run an OS inside an OS. I found it to be a much much better solution that dual-booting. Same here. I love having simultaneous access to multiple computing environments without having to (re)boot the computer. I have 70+ guests configured in specific ways (for my work), so if I need to check something real quick I simply bring that guest up, do a bit of work, and then suspend it again, all without touching the main (host) computer. Multi-booting would be a royal pain. -- Char Jackson |
#23
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Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?
Ant wrote:
I still use lots of old stuff too as long as they still work and useful like my HP Photosmart 8450 printer from 2006, Belkin OmniCube KVM from Y2K, etc. Anything that aren't useful, then they go bye bye like trash, donations, sales, etc. "Use" is the crux: she doesn't use tons of old software because she got something else or the old stuff won't run under a new OS. Hoarders don't throw anything away if they can rationalize that someday or somehow it could possibly still be usable. I buy separate salt and pepper. I want the pepper in a can to keep it sealed so the oil doesn't evaporate; else, you end up with tasteless black specks on your food. She doesn't buy separate salt and pepper but buys them in pairs; i.e., one package that as both the salt and pepper shakers (paper cores with plastic ends of which one can be turned to open/close that end). She doesn't use the pepper becaus she doesn't like pepper. So why buy the twin package with both salt and pepper? Just buy the salt. She won't break the habit. Last time I counted, she had 24 unused pepper shakers. Of course, somehow someday someone might want the dried out tasteless pepper, so she hoards it. Lots of old people love to keep lots of old stuff. Look at those estate sales! :O That doesn't mean they used it up until they died. While not as bad, lots of people hoard some old stuff. They use the same rationale as my aunt or mostly they forget they had it because it got stuffed on a shelf then don't revisit or dumped in the attic, basement, or garage. I've seen people have estate sales and notice the auctioneer is selling some like-new deep-flush never-used large bath towels that they did not remember they had. I've seen "estate" sales at farms where coffee cans of old bent nails were being sold. That actually has a good reason. Traveling into town some 100 miles away to get more nails just isn't a viable option, so farmers keep the bent nails figuring they'll straighten for reuse later. Trash haulers are getting more picky. They won't let you toss CRTs, fluorescent tubes, electronics (because of the lead solder), and other materials now deemed hazardous. Residents don't want to pay the $10, or more, fee per trip or sometimes per item to drop off the bad stuff at a hazardous recycling center, so they keep stockpiling it in some on-site trash heap. Ever notice those dead cars sitting in their fields? Quite often the ruralites make only a couple trips per year into town. They don't take an inventory of what they already have to know what they don't need to buy. Even city folk don't do that. Consumers often make impulse buys and often don't know they already have something, so they buy more because, hell, they're already in the stores. When walking through the stores, how many shoppers do you see with shopping lists? I do before I go shopping while by if anything on the list is something that I already have should my memory fail to remember. Some folks just like to stockpile. Maybe surrounded by a bunch of trashy stuff makes them feel rich. My mom and aunt were dirt poor when they were being raised, so hoarding was a way of life back then. Every week for as long as I can remember they would go to garage sales once, or more, per week. It was their fun time together. Don't ask me why they bought all those unmatched socks and mittens. They don't know, either. |
#24
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Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?
Mayayana wrote:
"VanguardLH" wrote | You could always run a virtual machine with 16 or 32 bit Windows. | | But I need a Windows licence for those. The WOWs don't. | | Yes, you need a license for the WOWs, too. I think he meant he would have to buy a new copy of a Win32 OS to run in a VM on a 64-bit OS, in order to run 16-bit software. I find it odd that people so often talk about VMs without acknowledging the high cost in both processing power and licenses. As though it actually makes sense to run an OS inside an OS. The OP wants to (or interested in) running 16- and 32-bit executables under Windows. $30 for Windows XP is considered a high price? If so, that user cannot afford using a computer at any version of an OS. Every computer will incur costs. If software is critical, especially for a business, you don't change the OS just because there is a new version of the OS if the critical software won't run there. I remember working in a software publishing company about 20 years that still supported customers of some ancient version of IBM's VSE that was 20 years dead at that time. In the part that I snipped, yes, it does often make more sense to buy another computer with the new OS and the new[er] software to run over there while keeping the old computer to keep running the old but critical software on that old box. Just because you get a new computer doesn't mandate you get rid of the old one. If the same was practiced with clothing, I'd only have 1 shirt, 1 pair pants, 1 belt, 1 pair socks, 1 pair shoes, 1 winter jacket, 1 t-shirt, and 1 pair tighty whities. That I buy new clothes doesn't mean I get rid of the old clothes until those old clothes are no longer usable except as rags. |
#25
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Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?
Mayayana wrote:
"VanguardLH" wrote | You could always run a virtual machine with 16 or 32 bit Windows. | | But I need a Windows licence for those. The WOWs don't. | | Yes, you need a license for the WOWs, too. I think he meant he would have to buy a new copy of a Win32 OS to run in a VM on a 64-bit OS, in order to run 16-bit software. I find it odd that people so often talk about VMs without acknowledging the high cost in both processing power and licenses. As though it actually makes sense to run an OS inside an OS. XP Mode was 2 parts: the VMM (virtual machine manager) called XP Mode which is just an updated version of Microsoft's Virtual PC (but with improvement to hide that a program was virtualized) and the XP image file (the .vhd file - a virtual hard disk image). I still have those downloads but didn't use Virtual PC for very long. As I recall, VirtualBox or VMware Player, or both, could load VHD files, so I only need the image file to have XP 32-bit run as a guest OS on Windows 7. The XP Mode license was fettered by the Win 7 license: they had to be used together. No slicing apart the components of Windows 7 to use parts of it on one PC and other parts on another PC. XP Mode (aka Virtual PC with .vhd file) was Microsoft's lure to get users, especially businesses, off Windows XP and move to Windows 7. |
#26
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Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?
On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 16:01:14 -0400, Paul wrote:
You can reload a copy of your appliance VM every 30 days, so that a license is not necessary. So if you download a Win8 .ova for VirtualBox, you just unpack it every 30 days and start fresh. You can use the 30 day grace period, but have to reinstall programs when you start fresh again. Microsoft provides free Windows VMs which only expire after 90 days. https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/vms/ After the 90 days has expired, the Windows 7 versions can be re-armed a couple of times. Which gives you more time before you have to start afresh and re-install programs. -- Kind regards Ralph |
#27
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Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?
On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 20:59:59 +1200, Ralph Fox wrote:
On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 16:01:14 -0400, Paul wrote: You can reload a copy of your appliance VM every 30 days, so that a license is not necessary. So if you download a Win8 .ova for VirtualBox, you just unpack it every 30 days and start fresh. You can use the 30 day grace period, but have to reinstall programs when you start fresh again. Microsoft provides free Windows VMs which only expire after 90 days. https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/vms/ After the 90 days has expired, the Windows 7 versions can be re-armed a couple of times. Which gives you more time before you have to start afresh and re-install programs. They don't go back very far; for an afternoon's fun try loading Windows95 with IE3 into VirtualBox. |
#28
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Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?
On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 13:45:37 +0100, mechanic
wrote: On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 20:59:59 +1200, Ralph Fox wrote: On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 16:01:14 -0400, Paul wrote: You can reload a copy of your appliance VM every 30 days, so that a license is not necessary. So if you download a Win8 .ova for VirtualBox, you just unpack it every 30 days and start fresh. You can use the 30 day grace period, but have to reinstall programs when you start fresh again. Microsoft provides free Windows VMs which only expire after 90 days. https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/vms/ After the 90 days has expired, the Windows 7 versions can be re-armed a couple of times. Which gives you more time before you have to start afresh and re-install programs. They don't go back very far; for an afternoon's fun try loading Windows95 with IE3 into VirtualBox. I have 98SE available in VMware, but I've only run it a few times to see if it works. It does, but it didn't inspire me to go even farther back to 95. -- Char Jackson |
#29
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Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?
On 08/14/2018 07:45 AM, mechanic wrote:
[snip] They don't go back very far; for an afternoon's fun try loading Windows95 with IE3 into VirtualBox. I have done it, although the version I had came with IE4 (more modern than IE3 but still a very old version). One problem I had was the lack of internet access. I had forgotten what I did 23 years ago. On Win95, you have a enable TCP/IP. It might be interesting to get IE1 working (supposedly it only works on Win95 and NT4). There's not much you can do with it (IE 3 will not work with name-based shared hosting, and also no cookies). However, it could be interesting to see what it WILL do. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ Christianity is not a religion; it's an industry. |
#30
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Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?
On 08/14/2018 10:14 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
[snip] I have 98SE available in VMware, but I've only run it a few times to see if it works. It does, but it didn't inspire me to go even farther back to 95. I did it because it comes with IE4. I don't know if ANYONE uses IE4, but it can be interesting to play with old stuff. I have a simple clock page at http://notstupid.us/clox/clockie.html, which I actually wrote for IE4. This will work only on browsers that have document.all. This used to be just IE 4+ and Opera 6-12.x (Presto versions). However, the newest versions of Firefox, Chrome, Opera, Edge, and Safari all support it too. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ Christianity is not a religion; it's an industry. |
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