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  #61  
Old June 21st 04, 02:41 PM
Shenan Stanley
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Default anti virus software

Shenan Stanley wrote:
I don't totally disagree with what "Unknown" is saying.

"Unknown" is correct in that if you only accept/open attachments
from people you know and trust to be doing the same common sense
things you are (firewall, not opening junk attachments, not
forwarding crap emails - like scams and chain letters, not signing
up for random free things on the web, not installing whatever you
think sounds cool, etc), the chances of you getting a virus in that
way is like winning a lotto..



Gordon wrote:
Umm - that's how Mellissa spread so quickly - people opening infected
attachments that came FROM PEOPLE THEY KNEW.



Gordon,

Please read the way I phrased the whole statement. I did not say just from
people they knew, I said "from people they know and trust to be doing the
same common sense things you are.." and I continue to list those common
sense things. This group of people would likely be smaller than your
average circle of family and friends by far - unless your whole family
happened to consist of computer admins. Also, please do not take parts of
my post and cut them out of context.. The post is a whole point, not many
small ones. The whole post is as follows:

----
I don't totally disagree with what "Unknown" is saying.

I don't believe that "Unknown" is suggesting that everyone should run
without virus software, but stating the fact that "Unknown" has not yet
gotten a virus and neither has most of their friends/relatives that they
communicate with often gotten them because either they too are computer
literate (more so than most of the populace) or at least follow the advice
that "Unknown" or other "in the know" people have given them.

I know that almost all AV software do use a decent amount of resident memory
when they are running.
I know that there are reports of people having trouble doing one thing or
another because of AV software being incompatible in some way with something
else.
I know that most of the viruses I have seen people catch have been from
opening email attachments, not following common sense rules like using a
firewall or running un-researched software on their machines.

But - on the counter-point - although education is the best way to stop
having to rely on things like AntiVirus software - most people don't use
common sense when they use their computers. It's a tool to do their taxes
easier, write up their grocery list, download free "neat" things, find old
friends on the web, see pictures of their grandkids on, research their
favorite topics.. And the problem is they don't CARE how the computer runs
until they notice it is running badly (like it crashes or shuts down every
30 minutes..) and some of them, even then, would prefer NOT to know what is
wrong and give it to someone else to repair.

"Unknown" is correct in that if you only accept/open attachments from people
you know and trust to be doing the same common sense things you are
(firewall, not opening junk attachments, not forwarding crap emails - like
scams and chain letters, not signing up for random free things on the web,
not installing whatever you think sounds cool, etc), the chances of you
getting a virus in that way is like winning a lotto.. (or any game of
chance) - slim to none. The chance is never eliminated, however - since you
don't control all the factors - but it is so slim that you don't have to
worry about it.

However - even never have gotten a virus - I see people get them all the
time - people like I described earlier. They go to work and expect that
their network admin would never let Aunt Fran or Uncle Bobby send them a
virus via attachment (even though they are getting it via their hotmail
account where their admin has no control, or yahoo, or petscentral, or
hushmail or the hordes of others that may or may not be known about so
thereby not blocked at work.) and so they download it. They don't care
about security, they don't know what a computer virus is beyond, "Bad and
the computer guy sometimes has to take my computer and they look ****ed when
they do", and they have this false sense of security - so they download it
and BAM - the antivirus software pops up telling them something they don't
understand so they get all worried and call their computer tech asking what
"quarantined" means, and how can they get the file their Uncle/Aunt sent
them? Those same people then go home, come back the next day and track down
their computer admin, wondering if they could help them because their home
PC sure is acting funny since they downloaded the other file from their Aunt
last night..

You can TRY to educate them, but all they want is a quick fix and get on
with their lives.. Not to mention that it better automatically "improve
itself" so they never have to worry about this issue again.

So, I still and will continue recommending Firewall, Updates/Patches,
AntiVirus, AntiSpyware and AntiSpam software I have tested in various
environments, researched and found to be somewhat reliable to the people who
come around wondering/whining about "Why their computer got slow? or "Why
does it shut down with something about 'NTAuthority'?" or "Who are these
Nigerians and is their money real?" or "Why do all these porn advertisements
come up when I surf the web?"

Why? Well, I try to throw a little education in my advice. I figure they
came for advice, they must know they did something wrong, so I might as well
use their vulnerable state as a learning tool, but I also think their want
to learn is usually limited - they want enough to fix it and move on - but
if you can tell them they need this all, the chances of them coming back in
a week is slimmer. Not only that - but if they read what I give them,
listen to what I tell them, they might actually, in following the advice,
learn something and come to the same point "Unknown" has gotten to - you
never know...
----

--
- Shenan -
--
The information is provided "as is", with no guarantees of
completeness, accuracy or timeliness, and without warranties of any
kind, express or implied. In other words, read up before you take any
advice - you are the one ultimately responsible for your actions.


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  #62  
Old June 21st 04, 04:41 PM
Unknown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default anti virus software

If you had your firewall on you would not get the sasser virus. But if off,
you'll be very lucky if you lasted 5 minutes.
"Gordon" wrote in message
...
"Unknown" wrote in message
. ..
I do Don, from my friends and relatives. But, they all use the firewall

and
keep their systems updated.


Umm - a "firewall" does NOT stop OR detect viruses.



  #63  
Old June 21st 04, 05:41 PM
Unknown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default anti virus software

But, you wouldn't get the infected attachments from people you know if they
use the same caution.
"Gordon" wrote in message
...
"Shenan Stanley" wrote in message
...
I don't totally disagree with what "Unknown" is saying.


"Unknown" is correct in that if you only accept/open attachments from

people
you know and trust to be doing the same common sense things you are
(firewall, not opening junk attachments, not forwarding crap emails - like
scams and chain letters, not signing up for random free things on the web,
not installing whatever you think sounds cool, etc), the chances of you
getting a virus in that way is like winning a lotto..


Umm - that's how Mellissa spread so quickly - people opening infected
attachments that came FROM PEOPLE THEY KNEW.



  #64  
Old June 21st 04, 06:41 PM
Gordon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default anti virus software

"Unknown" wrote in message
m...
But, you wouldn't get the infected attachments from people you know if

they
use the same caution.


But that's the whole nub of this discussion. You can NEVER be 110% certain
that they HAVEN'T got a virus.


  #65  
Old June 21st 04, 08:41 PM
Unknown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default anti virus software

Of course not. However the suggested cure or prevention ( AV programs) is far
worse than the risk of infection.
"Gordon" wrote in message
...
"Unknown" wrote in message
m...
But, you wouldn't get the infected attachments from people you know if

they
use the same caution.


But that's the whole nub of this discussion. You can NEVER be 110% certain
that they HAVEN'T got a virus.



  #66  
Old June 21st 04, 10:41 PM
Shenan Stanley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default anti virus software

Unknown wrote:
Of course not. However the suggested cure or prevention ( AV
programs) is far worse than the risk of infection.



And to make that complete instead of implied :

"In Your Opinion."

That's what great about those three words, changes the meaning completely...
I cannot say some things without a risk of being sued, but if I add "In My
Opinion" to it - suing me becomes nearly impossible, because it isw "my
opinion" and I am not presenting it as fact.

I've stated my case/opinion on it, been quoted out of context, so I will
leave it to the rest of you if you wish to fight over one person's opinion
or not.

--
- Shenan -
--
The information is provided "as is", with no guarantees of
completeness, accuracy or timeliness, and without warranties of any
kind, express or implied. In other words, read up before you take any
advice - you are the one ultimately responsible for your actions.


  #67  
Old June 22nd 04, 02:41 AM
Bruce Chambers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default anti virus software

Greetings --

Point of fact, Mr. Chairman: Sasser is a Worm, not a virus;
completely different means of propagation. The original statement
stands: firewalls do _not_ detect or prevent viruses.

Bruce Chambers
--
Help us help you:
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
having both at once. - RAH


"Unknown" wrote in message
m...
If you had your firewall on you would not get the sasser virus. But

if off,
you'll be very lucky if you lasted 5 minutes.



  #68  
Old June 22nd 04, 11:41 AM
eric2004ut
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default anti virus software

Ok! I have used computers for a very long time and also used AV software and have not one problem of computer going on a fritz. Sounds to me "Unknown" that you either don't know how to even use AV that works or you just so ignorant to even try one for your
self to say that is not worth it. How can you say not worth having if you never used one? Firewall is to block in and out from virus but not to get rid of one and also not all Firewalls are as good as you say either. I am not saying AV are all perfect eith
er. Not all Firewalls are perfect either. So complaining to make people not use something because you think you can control people to make their decision for them is not going to help them or you on anything. So the best thing for anyone here is to try and
make there own opinion on what they use for themselves. Experience themselves of what works and does not. Anyone knows you can not make someone elses opinion for them. They have to make it on there own.

"Unknown" wrote:

I know about computers and software, that's precisely why I don't need AV
programs and don't get viruses.
"Bruce Chambers" wrote in message
...
Greetings --

Not if one knows how to follow the relatively simple instructions
that come with them, and know a little about computers and software in
general. Most applications, whether anti-viral or otherwise, cause
problems _only_ if used(misused) by the willfully ignorant.

Bruce Chambers
--
Help us help you:
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
having both at once. - RAH


"Unknown" wrote in message
gy.com...
They cause far more problems than they prevent.





  #69  
Old June 22nd 04, 04:41 PM
Unknown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default anti virus software

Very true. I misread and of course misspoke. I had worms on the mind. I'll try
to be more accurate in the future.
"Bruce Chambers" wrote in message
...
Greetings --

Point of fact, Mr. Chairman: Sasser is a Worm, not a virus;
completely different means of propagation. The original statement
stands: firewalls do _not_ detect or prevent viruses.

Bruce Chambers
--
Help us help you:
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
having both at once. - RAH


"Unknown" wrote in message
m...
If you had your firewall on you would not get the sasser virus. But

if off,
you'll be very lucky if you lasted 5 minutes.




  #70  
Old June 22nd 04, 04:41 PM
Unknown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default anti virus software

I just can't believe people who are not sure of themselves always respond with
insults and name calling.I in fact do know how to use computers and perhaps
have even used them before you were born. (you can test me on that if you
wish). And being ignorant to even try?? They are not worth having or using
simply because they cause more problems than they prevent in my opinion. I
won't use one because they cause too many problems and I do NOT get viruses.
What on earth makes you say I'm complaining? Or trying to control people? I
CAN however try to educate them. If they read and use common sense, they can
make their own decisions.
Your last two sentences leave me baffled.
.ric2004ut" wrote in message
...
Ok! I have used computers for a very long time and also used AV software and

have not one problem of computer going on a fritz. Sounds to me "Unknown" that
you either don't know how to even use AV that works or you just so ignorant to
even try one for yourself to say that is not worth it. How can you say not
worth having if you never used one? Firewall is to block in and out from virus
but not to get rid of one and also not all Firewalls are as good as you say
either. I am not saying AV are all perfect either. Not all Firewalls are
perfect either. So complaining to make people not use something because you
think you can control people to make their decision for them is not going to
help them or you on anything. So the best thing for anyone here is to try and
make there own opinion on what they use for themselves. Experience themselves
of what works and does not. Anyone knows you can not make someone elses
opinion for them. They have to make it on there own.

"Unknown" wrote:

I know about computers and software, that's precisely why I don't need AV
programs and don't get viruses.
"Bruce Chambers" wrote in message
...
Greetings --

Not if one knows how to follow the relatively simple instructions
that come with them, and know a little about computers and software in
general. Most applications, whether anti-viral or otherwise, cause
problems _only_ if used(misused) by the willfully ignorant.

Bruce Chambers
--
Help us help you:
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
having both at once. - RAH


"Unknown" wrote in message
gy.com...
They cause far more problems than they prevent.





 




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