Why are printers constantly redesigned with no improvements?

On Thu, 09 Jul 2020 22:36:06 +0100, Snit wrote:

On 7/9/20 1:15 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jul 2020 20:24:08 +0100, Snit
wrote:

On 7/9/20 5:13 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Every time I buy a new printer, it's changed. New stupid quirks,
different ink cartridges. But not faster, not better quality, nothing
useful. There was no need to make it different.

More than a year ago I bought one of the Epson "Ecotank" printers. The
promise was that the ink would be much cheaper. They were not kidding!
It came with, I think, two bottles of each color and three or four of
the black. We are just now getting ready to put in the second bottle of
the black. The ink it came with will likely last us 2-3 years (I think
they estimate 1 year).

It is not perfect -- it will sometimes stop to reset itself or whatever
and sits there grumbling for a minute or two... which is not bad but
when you are waiting for a printout it can be annoying. And I prefer
printers with a touch screen for ease of use -- its tiny screen and
menus are hardly ideal, but also far from a deal breaker for us.

Was it expensive to buy? I bought a normal Epson and added my own
aftermarket tanks, connected with flexible silicone pipes to a block
which goes where the cartridges should. Works out at the equivalent of
$0.15 a cartridge. And no I don't buy Epson ink, any more than I buy
Mercedes cars.

Got it through Costco where printers tend to be a bit cheaper. Don't
remember the full cost but it was a bit more than others. Pretty close
to this model:

https://www.costco.com/epson-ecotank...100518531.html

$350

That sounds about right. More than most... but that is with what they
say is a year of ink and for us even more. When we have to replace the
ink even that will not too bad, considering how long it lasts.

The color is listed as about $40 (all three colors) and the black $20.
Even assuming two blacks per year and one color, that is less about $80
a year on ink. Don't need to worry about that for at least another year,
though, so not a big deal.

I have tried third party inks with other systems before and was not
happy... was very hit or miss.

Mine works fine, and $350 is ****ing ridiculous. They saw you coming. I paid $40 for my printer (including scanner) and $20 for the ink tanks. Ink is $12 a litre.

Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jul 2020 22:36:06 +0100, Snit wrote:

On 7/9/20 1:15 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jul 2020 20:24:08 +0100, Snit
wrote:

On 7/9/20 5:13 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Every time I buy a new printer, it's changed. New stupid quirks,
different ink cartridges. But not faster, not better quality, nothing
useful. There was no need to make it different.

More than a year ago I bought one of the Epson "Ecotank" printers. The
promise was that the ink would be much cheaper. They were not kidding!
It came with, I think, two bottles of each color and three or four of
the black. We are just now getting ready to put in the second bottle of
the black. The ink it came with will likely last us 2-3 years (I think
they estimate 1 year).

It is not perfect -- it will sometimes stop to reset itself or whatever
and sits there grumbling for a minute or two... which is not bad but
when you are waiting for a printout it can be annoying. And I prefer
printers with a touch screen for ease of use -- its tiny screen and
menus are hardly ideal, but also far from a deal breaker for us.

Was it expensive to buy? I bought a normal Epson and added my own
aftermarket tanks, connected with flexible silicone pipes to a block
which goes where the cartridges should. Works out at the equivalent of
$0.15 a cartridge. And no I don't buy Epson ink, any more than I buy
Mercedes cars.

Got it through Costco where printers tend to be a bit cheaper. Don't
remember the full cost but it was a bit more than others. Pretty close
to this model:

https://www.costco.com/epson-ecotank...100518531.html

$350

That sounds about right. More than most... but that is with what they
say is a year of ink and for us even more. When we have to replace the
ink even that will not too bad, considering how long it lasts.

The color is listed as about $40 (all three colors) and the black $20.
Even assuming two blacks per year and one color, that is less about $80
a year on ink. Don't need to worry about that for at least another year,
though, so not a big deal.

I have tried third party inks with other systems before and was not
happy... was very hit or miss.

Mine works fine, and $350 is ****ing ridiculous. They saw you coming. I
paid $40 for my printer (including scanner) and $20 for the ink tanks. Ink is $12 a litre.


I went through a number of cheaper printers and was never happy with them.
What do you have?

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They
cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel
somehow superior by attacking the messenger. They cling to their attacks
and ignore the message time and time again.

On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 16:52:19 +0100, Jim H wrote:

On Thu, 09 Jul 2020 14:27:18 +0100, in op.0nhozsbtwdg98l@glass,
"Commander Kinsey" wrote:

On Thu, 09 Jul 2020 13:21:00 +0100, David_B wrote:

On 09/07/2020 13:13, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Every time I buy a new printer, it's changed. New stupid quirks,
different ink cartridges. But not faster, not better quality, nothing
useful. There was no need to make it different.

Can you see the Camel in this image?

https://artsology.com/images/animal-face-illusion.jpg

No.

How well does the image come out on your new printer?

Same as the last one. Reasonable enough for photos, exactly like the monitor for a low quality image like that one. Until the ink gets an air bubble.... I think the plumbing is made by Renault.

Best thing I ever did printer-wise was give up inkjet rinters and get
a laser printer. The cartridges are quite expensive, but they last so
long that they're about half the price of ink over the same period.

Colour lasers are **** at photos. They can't mix the colours like inkjets can. It comes out looking like a 256 colour image (remember those?)

That business of having to purge plugged nozzels with "liquid gold"
is ridiculous. And 3rd party ink has it's own set of problems. Maybe
there's a good combination out there, but who has the time to find it?

Toner is very very expensive. I buy ink, not cartridges, it comes in bottles. £10 a LITRE.

On 7/20/2020 10:51 AM, Jim H wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jul 2020 22:59:41 +0100, in op.0ny0pr07wdg98l@glass,
"Commander Kinsey" wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jul 2020 05:02:58 +0100, Eric Stevens wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jul 2020 00:47:50 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Sat, 11 Jul 2020 19:42:58 +0100, Bennett Price wrote:

On 7/9/2020 5:13 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Every time I buy a new printer, it's changed. New stupid quirks,
different ink cartridges. But not faster, not better quality, nothing
useful. There was no need to make it different.

So far I've seen only 1 response that answers your question -
parallel-serial to USB to wifi-Ethernet and the addition of slots for
various sorts of memory cards.

To these I'd add that features like duplexing, and increases in speed
have gone up while prices have gone down. Ditto cost/higher resolution.

I don't think the changes/improvements are simply marketing ploys - how
often does anyone buy a new printer to get the latest? I'd guess most
folks replace an old printer because it has failed or can't connect to
a new computer. (I added an LPT/Parallel card to my desktop PC to
connect to a fairly old Laser.)

I had that problem where I worked which had Apple computers - in that case I bought adapters to go into the serial ports, cheaper and easier to fit/swap around than a card. But PCs tend to keep the old ports for a decade afterwards. I bought a motherboard with a serial and parallel port on the back about only 5 years ago. When was it USB came out?

So I think there have been improvements and corresponding cost
reductions. I'm still waiting for the print-what-I'm thinking about
feature.

But you've listed only a handful of proper feature changes. I bet you there are about 250 models of Epson inkjet ever made.

I bet there is a damned sight more than that. In Desktop printers
there is the Workforce Series, ET Series, XP Series, Artisan Series
and the Stylus Series.

In large format printers they currently list 24 different models.

They currently list 10 different models of Point of Sale printers.

Leaving out the point of sale printers, the various printer models
currently listed under 'Support & Downloads' a
Eco Tank Multifunction printers 18
Eco Tank printers 3
Multifunction Printers 118
Inkjet Printers 113
Large Format Printers 72
----
324

Apart from that, there will be a long tail of utterly obsolete
printeres trailing into the distant past.

Indeed. And since 324 improvements have not been made to
printers in that time, most of those were a complete and utter
waste of time and money. Presumably making a new one
requires a lot of expense of tooling.

The marketing folks want new products because "new and improved"
sells. (Which means they're really "sales folks" vs "marketing folks,"
but that's another story.)

Some models print more pages per minute than others, print both sides,
fax, copy, scan, etc, etc. Obviously more paper handling like two
sided is a completely different mechanical design. And faxing,
scanning involve both electronics and hardware. But what's the
difference between lasers that put out 10 ppm vs 5 ppm single sided
other than gearing and maybe fuser wattage?

Other than for marketing purposes the number of different printers
from one maker serves no useful purpose.

If one manufacturer just stuck to a single model and only
changed it every 10 years, they could make a fortune.


In a strictly rational world, yes. But in the world we live in it's
more likely they'd go broke... because too many consumers want
something "new."


And therfore because, if they don't have something new to sell, most
consumers will keep what they have and buty abything.


Never mind that it isn't improved... although it
might say it is... or the improvement might be inconsequential.

I think we all know folks who trade in their cars every couple of
years... sometimes just to buy the latest version of the same model.
Maybe the remote will start the new car when the old one didn't do
that. But maybe the remote will no longer lower the windows. If the
car hasn't been abused, "run hard and put away wet," etc., it's far
more economical to keep the car longer.


More economical? Yes. But the older car will be less reliable, and
that's another reason someone will decide to buy a newer car.

The same isn't true of printers. If a printer dies, it doesn't leave you
stranded on a back road. And you can almost always replace it very quickly.


New car dealers and
manufacturers would be in trouble without these people who trade
often... and so would used car dealers.


Yes.


Took me a while to realize that a laser printer was a bit less than
half the cost of an inkjet in terms of the cost of consumables. Then a
bit of research comparing the hardware cost found that a laser printer
vs the typical "all in one" or "many in one" inkjet were similarly
priced.

Somewhere after giving up on Epson inkjets, I gave cheap (at the time)
Brother printers a try... where you could get a no frills printer with
cartridges really cheap, sell it when the cartridges ran out and buy a
new printer... all cheaper than you could buy new cartridges. There
was an advantage even considering original cartridges were only
partially full. That sort of marketing by Brother only lasted a year
or so, after which I got the HP laser.

The laser is even cheaper overall... and I buy only OEM cartridges.


Ditto to both those statements.


A
friend tried refills from a local shop and colors went completely
wonky. Place said they got a bad lot of toner. That couldn't possibly
be the norm or refill places couldn't stay in business.



--
Ken

On 7/20/2020 11:16 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
On 7/20/2020 10:51 AM, Jim H wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jul 2020 22:59:41 +0100, in op.0ny0pr07wdg98l@glass,
"Commander Kinsey" wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jul 2020 05:02:58 +0100, Eric Stevens wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jul 2020 00:47:50 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Sat, 11 Jul 2020 19:42:58 +0100, Bennett Price wrote:

On 7/9/2020 5:13 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Every time I buy a new printer, it's changed. New stupid quirks,
different ink cartridges. But not faster, not better quality, nothing
useful. There was no need to make it different.

So far I've seen only 1 response that answers your question -
parallel-serial to USB to wifi-Ethernet and the addition of slots for
various sorts of memory cards.

To these I'd add that features like duplexing, and increases in speed
have gone up while prices have gone down. Ditto cost/higher resolution.

I don't think the changes/improvements are simply marketing ploys - how
often does anyone buy a new printer to get the latest? I'd guess most
folks replace an old printer because it has failed or can't connect to
a new computer. (I added an LPT/Parallel card to my desktop PC to
connect to a fairly old Laser.)

I had that problem where I worked which had Apple computers - in that case I bought adapters to go into the serial ports, cheaper and easier to fit/swap around than a card. But PCs tend to keep the old ports for a decade afterwards. I bought a motherboard with a serial and parallel port on the back about only 5 years ago. When was it USB came out?

So I think there have been improvements and corresponding cost
reductions. I'm still waiting for the print-what-I'm thinking about
feature.

But you've listed only a handful of proper feature changes. I bet you there are about 250 models of Epson inkjet ever made.

I bet there is a damned sight more than that. In Desktop printers
there is the Workforce Series, ET Series, XP Series, Artisan Series
and the Stylus Series.

In large format printers they currently list 24 different models.

They currently list 10 different models of Point of Sale printers.

Leaving out the point of sale printers, the various printer models
currently listed under 'Support & Downloads' a
Eco Tank Multifunction printers 18
Eco Tank printers 3
Multifunction Printers 118
Inkjet Printers 113
Large Format Printers 72
----
324

Apart from that, there will be a long tail of utterly obsolete
printeres trailing into the distant past.

Indeed. And since 324 improvements have not been made to
printers in that time, most of those were a complete and utter
waste of time and money. Presumably making a new one
requires a lot of expense of tooling.

The marketing folks want new products because "new and improved"
sells. (Which means they're really "sales folks" vs "marketing folks,"
but that's another story.)

Some models print more pages per minute than others, print both sides,
fax, copy, scan, etc, etc. Obviously more paper handling like two
sided is a completely different mechanical design. And faxing,
scanning involve both electronics and hardware. But what's the
difference between lasers that put out 10 ppm vs 5 ppm single sided
other than gearing and maybe fuser wattage?

Other than for marketing purposes the number of different printers
from one maker serves no useful purpose.

If one manufacturer just stuck to a single model and only
changed it every 10 years, they could make a fortune.


In a strictly rational world, yes. But in the world we live in it's
more likely they'd go broke... because too many consumers want
something "new."


And therfore because, if they don't have something new to sell, most
consumers will keep what they have and buty abything.


Terrible typos! Sorry. That should be "And therefore because, if they
don't have something new to sell, most consumers will keep what they
have and not buy anything."

Ken

Commander Kinsey wrote:

Toner is very very expensive.* I buy ink, not cartridges, it comes in
bottles.* £10 a LITRE.


Almost 20 years ago, a "refurbished" ink cartridge ruined my HP inkjet
printer (by leaking all over the inside). But that might have been a
blessing in disguise, as I replaced it with a laser printer and have
since saved many hundreds of dollars in running a printer. The color
inkjet cartridge would go "empty" even if I didn't print in color at all
(a well-known "problem" for the customer). I don't really need color
printing for the most part--if I really did, it would be different. If
I do happen to need it, I can go to the office supply store and have
printing done there. Hope this may be helpful to someone.

In answer to the question: "Why are printers constantly redesigned with
no improvements?": The answer is surely because they found a way to
build it cheaper, the older model may have had warranty issues, and
because customers may be willing to pay a little more for a "new
model"-it helps keep the product "fresh", I think. Only commodities
seem to fail to be reinvented every year or so. Personally, I would be
happy with a commodity car, that was heavily discounted, but the
automakers don't want to play that game--Ford even mostly quit making
any sedans.

If you ask the same question with regard to televisions, the answer is
probably because they found a more effective way to sell your
"identity". The relative prices of televisions is pretty remarkable.
Graphics cards on the other hand, seem to be on the way up.

On 2020-07-21 10:45 a.m., Jim H wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jul 2020 18:34:30 +0100, in op.0n2drskwwdg98l@glass,
"Commander Kinsey" wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 16:52:19 +0100, Jim H wrote:

Best thing I ever did printer-wise was give up inkjet rinters and get
a laser printer. The cartridges are quite expensive, but they last so
long that they're about half the price of ink over the same period.

Colour lasers are **** at photos. They can't mix the colours like inkjets
can. It comes out looking like a 256 colour image (remember those?)


Not all of them are good at photos just like not all inkjets are good
at photos. Low end lasers make fairly poor photos just like low end
inkjets do. If the primary purpose of a printer is to print photos,
you're going to have to buy a printer optimized to print photos.


That business of having to purge plugged nozzels with "liquid gold"
is ridiculous. And 3rd party ink has it's own set of problems. Maybe
there's a good combination out there, but who has the time to find it?

Toner is very very expensive. I buy ink, not cartridges, it comes in bottles.
£10 a LITRE.


OEM toner is cheaper than OEM ink per page by about 50%. I and many
many many (many) others have experience that says bulk ink (or ink in
general) is a problem in terms of clogged nozzles. Less of a problem
if you print every day, much more if only occasionally, Maybe at £10 a
liter it makes sense to own a printer that uses ink to clean itself
when clogged. I prefer to have a clearly printed page 10 seconds after
I click "print" vs a page with streaks much later. Life is too short
to deal with inkjet clogs even if you use cheaper bulk ink.


Thirteen years ago I got fed up paying for ridiculously overpriced in
Cartridges, which were forever clogging and wasting ink cleaning nozzles.

I threw inkjet printer and carts in the trash and bought a fairly
expensive Office quality Color laser printer. An Okidata c5150n.

It does beautiful presentation quality color prints, I know and accept
that it does not do best photos, for the few I do I take and have them
done at a local Photo store.

I use NEW toner cartridges from Media Science, not remanufactured or
refills, I pay about $135.00 for a set of 4 5000 page carts, CMYK and
they last me about 2 years.

I use a good quality 24 Lb Staples paper which runs about $10.00 a ream,
I use Their Gloss 32 lb photo paper for glossy prints.

In 13 years I have had about 3 or 4 minor paper jams, cleared in a
couple minutes and no other problems.

The Oki printer drivers supplied on CD still work perfectly in Windows 10.

I couldn't ask for anything better.

Rene

Commander Kinsey wrote:


Colour lasers are **** at photos. They can't mix the colours like
inkjets can. It comes out looking like a 256 colour image (remember
those?)

Page 3 "Multi-level printing".

http://h20195.www2.hp.com/v2/getpdf....A6-1605ENW.pdf

Paul

On 2020-07-21 12:20 p.m., Paul wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:


Colour lasers are **** at photos.* They can't mix the colours like
inkjets can.* It comes out looking like a 256 colour image (remember
those?)

Page 3 "Multi-level printing".

http://h20195.www2.hp.com/v2/getpdf....A6-1605ENW.pdf

** Paul

I don't know what method my Oki uses but the colours do come out great,
much the same as an inkjet, but obviously they won't be photo quality
due to the maximum of 1200 dpi.

Rene

Bill wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:

In answer to the question: "Why are printers constantly redesigned with
no improvements?":* The answer is surely because they found a way to
build it cheaper, the older model may have had warranty issues, and
because customers may be willing to pay a little more for a "new
model"-it helps keep the product "fresh", I think.
It occurred to me that perhaps another reason is that it makes it harder
for a customer to buy a used printer that is "just like the new one" in
the store. In short, it decreases the lifetime of the particular
product. Think of this example, as soon at the 2021 vehicles are
brought forward, your 2020 vehicle, which you paid $35K for, look more
like a used clunker.. : )

On Sat, 18 Jul 2020 01:17:14 +0100, Snit wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jul 2020 00:15:21 +0100, Snit wrote:

On 7/17/20 4:12 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
I had a similar one — but with a touch screen. We tried third party
inks
with little luck. Happy it works for you though.

I have never seen 3rd party inks fail to work in anything, and I buy the
£1-£2 ones.

They would smear and look horrid.

Never happened to me.

Every guy says that!

Speak for yourself! I get stiff as soon as I see tits.


To each their own.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4844790/g...limate-change/

Holy ****, I see many great tits and they're very friendly calm birds, I would never have thought of them attacking another bird.

Now this goshawk that got into my garden, they're vicious: https://www.dropbox.com/s/g043597dtx...85%29.JPG?dl=0

On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 05:15:16 +0100, Eric Stevens wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jul 2020 22:59:41 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jul 2020 05:02:58 +0100, Eric Stevens wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jul 2020 00:47:50 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Sat, 11 Jul 2020 19:42:58 +0100, Bennett Price wrote:

On 7/9/2020 5:13 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Every time I buy a new printer, it's changed. New stupid quirks,
different ink cartridges. But not faster, not better quality, nothing
useful. There was no need to make it different.

So far I've seen only 1 response that answers your question -
parallel-serial to USB to wifi-Ethernet and the addition of slots for
various sorts of memory cards.

To these I'd add that features like duplexing, and increases in speed
have gone up while prices have gone down. Ditto cost/higher resolution.

I don't think the changes/improvements are simply marketing ploys - how
often does anyone buy a new printer to get the latest? I'd guess most
folks replace an old printer because it has failed or can't connect to
a new computer. (I added an LPT/Parallel card to my desktop PC to
connect to a fairly old Laser.)

I had that problem where I worked which had Apple computers - in that case I bought adapters to go into the serial ports, cheaper and easier to fit/swap around than a card. But PCs tend to keep the old ports for a decade afterwards. I bought a motherboard with a serial and parallel port on the back about only 5 years ago. When was it USB came out?

So I think there have been improvements and corresponding cost
reductions. I'm still waiting for the print-what-I'm thinking about
feature.

But you've listed only a handful of proper feature changes. I bet you there are about 250 models of Epson inkjet ever made.

I bet there is a damned sight more than that. In Desktop printers
there is the Workforce Series, ET Series, XP Series, Artisan Series
and the Stylus Series.

In large format printers they currently list 24 different models.

They currently list 10 different models of Point of Sale printers.

Leaving out the point of sale printers, the various printer models
currently listed under 'Support & Downloads' a
Eco Tank Multifunction printers 18
Eco Tank printers 3
Multifunction Printers 118
Inkjet Printers 113
Large Format Printers 72
----
324

Apart from that, there will be a long tail of utterly obsolete
printeres trailing into the distant past.

Indeed. And since 324 improvements have not been made to printers in that time, most of those were a complete and utter waste of time and money. Presumably making a new one requires a lot of expense of tooling. If one manufacturer just stuck to a single model and only changed it every 10 years, they could make a fortune.

Why don't you find a financier and set up in business?

Preferably one who remains unaware of the impact that CNC has had on
the cost of tooling.

It's not just the tooling cost. It's ****ing off the customers when they can't get the same model again. Imagine if you could buy an identical model the next time, you'd keep your old one for spare parts. And don't say that would reduce sales. It may do that, but it would increase your customer base from companies that ****ed them around.

On Thu, 30 Jul 2020 17:50:43 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 05:15:16 +0100, Eric Stevens wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jul 2020 22:59:41 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jul 2020 05:02:58 +0100, Eric Stevens wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jul 2020 00:47:50 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Sat, 11 Jul 2020 19:42:58 +0100, Bennett Price wrote:

On 7/9/2020 5:13 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Every time I buy a new printer, it's changed. New stupid quirks,
different ink cartridges. But not faster, not better quality, nothing
useful. There was no need to make it different.

So far I've seen only 1 response that answers your question -
parallel-serial to USB to wifi-Ethernet and the addition of slots for
various sorts of memory cards.

To these I'd add that features like duplexing, and increases in speed
have gone up while prices have gone down. Ditto cost/higher resolution.

I don't think the changes/improvements are simply marketing ploys - how
often does anyone buy a new printer to get the latest? I'd guess most
folks replace an old printer because it has failed or can't connect to
a new computer. (I added an LPT/Parallel card to my desktop PC to
connect to a fairly old Laser.)

I had that problem where I worked which had Apple computers - in that case I bought adapters to go into the serial ports, cheaper and easier to fit/swap around than a card. But PCs tend to keep the old ports for a decade afterwards. I bought a motherboard with a serial and parallel port on the back about only 5 years ago. When was it USB came out?

So I think there have been improvements and corresponding cost
reductions. I'm still waiting for the print-what-I'm thinking about
feature.

But you've listed only a handful of proper feature changes. I bet you there are about 250 models of Epson inkjet ever made.

I bet there is a damned sight more than that. In Desktop printers
there is the Workforce Series, ET Series, XP Series, Artisan Series
and the Stylus Series.

In large format printers they currently list 24 different models.

They currently list 10 different models of Point of Sale printers.

Leaving out the point of sale printers, the various printer models
currently listed under 'Support & Downloads' a
Eco Tank Multifunction printers 18
Eco Tank printers 3
Multifunction Printers 118
Inkjet Printers 113
Large Format Printers 72
----
324

Apart from that, there will be a long tail of utterly obsolete
printeres trailing into the distant past.

Indeed. And since 324 improvements have not been made to printers in that time, most of those were a complete and utter waste of time and money. Presumably making a new one requires a lot of expense of tooling. If one manufacturer just stuck to a single model and only changed it every 10 years, they could make a fortune.

Why don't you find a financier and set up in business?

Preferably one who remains unaware of the impact that CNC has had on
the cost of tooling.

It's not just the tooling cost. It's ****ing off the customers when they can't get the same model again. Imagine if you could buy an identical model the next time, you'd keep your old one for spare parts. And don't say that would reduce sales. It may do that, but it would increase your customer base from companies that ****ed them around.

The point I'm trying to make is the the advent of computers has
brought the cost of making press and molding tooling down to a
fraction of what it was. It is now cheap to set up a production line
for a new product and anyone who expects to go on selling the same
printer for ten years will quickly find themselves several generations
behind the competition.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Mon, 20 Jul 2020 18:00:49 +0100, Jim H wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jul 2020 20:23:35 +0100, in op.0nythlvzwdg98l@glass,
"Commander Kinsey" wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 16:42:50 +0100, Jim H wrote:

On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 13:21:00 +0100, in
, David_B
wrote:

On 09/07/2020 13:13, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Every time I buy a new printer, it's changed. New stupid quirks,
different ink cartridges. But not faster, not better quality, nothing
useful. There was no need to make it different.

Can you see the Camel in this image?

No. You or someone else rescaled the image. Being a lossy JPG if there
ever was a distinct camel it's gone now.

How do you know? Do you have an image to compare it with?

Google "Can you see the camel" and you'll find the same image at
higher resolution. And you'll also find it with the camel circled.
There's no recognizable camel in your picture.

It wasn't my image, it was David's. And it's nothing to do with the resolution. It's actually been deleted from David's image. The area where the camel is has been blacked out. This is the only copy I can find with the camel intact: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lHYMGugCpA

https://artsology.com/images/animal-face-illusion.jpg

How well does the image come out on your new printer?

(My English is dreadful, BYKWIM!)

As an aside, but quite possibly with with similarities... I dearly
love the folks who post "optical illusions" like "What color is the
dress - blue or gold?" They SAY they can see gold (because they want
others to think they're special), but if you save the image and
examine pixels to determine their actual RGB color value completely
independent on any surrounding color that MIGHT (but doesn't) cause a
color illusion... it turns out to be exactly what it looks like to
everyone else who is honest about what they actually see... blue.

Just saying.

I can't remember which colour was which now, but I remember I answered differently to the majority, and agreed with photoshop zoomed in to the pixel level. I see what's there, I don't judge by surroundings.

On Mon, 20 Jul 2020 18:51:33 +0100, Jim H wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jul 2020 22:59:41 +0100, in op.0ny0pr07wdg98l@glass,
"Commander Kinsey" wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jul 2020 05:02:58 +0100, Eric Stevens wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jul 2020 00:47:50 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Sat, 11 Jul 2020 19:42:58 +0100, Bennett Price wrote:

On 7/9/2020 5:13 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Every time I buy a new printer, it's changed. New stupid quirks,
different ink cartridges. But not faster, not better quality, nothing
useful. There was no need to make it different.

So far I've seen only 1 response that answers your question -
parallel-serial to USB to wifi-Ethernet and the addition of slots for
various sorts of memory cards.

To these I'd add that features like duplexing, and increases in speed
have gone up while prices have gone down. Ditto cost/higher resolution.

I don't think the changes/improvements are simply marketing ploys - how
often does anyone buy a new printer to get the latest? I'd guess most
folks replace an old printer because it has failed or can't connect to
a new computer. (I added an LPT/Parallel card to my desktop PC to
connect to a fairly old Laser.)

I had that problem where I worked which had Apple computers - in that case I bought adapters to go into the serial ports, cheaper and easier to fit/swap around than a card. But PCs tend to keep the old ports for a decade afterwards. I bought a motherboard with a serial and parallel port on the back about only 5 years ago. When was it USB came out?

So I think there have been improvements and corresponding cost
reductions. I'm still waiting for the print-what-I'm thinking about
feature.

But you've listed only a handful of proper feature changes. I bet you there are about 250 models of Epson inkjet ever made.

I bet there is a damned sight more than that. In Desktop printers
there is the Workforce Series, ET Series, XP Series, Artisan Series
and the Stylus Series.

In large format printers they currently list 24 different models.

They currently list 10 different models of Point of Sale printers.

Leaving out the point of sale printers, the various printer models
currently listed under 'Support & Downloads' a
Eco Tank Multifunction printers 18
Eco Tank printers 3
Multifunction Printers 118
Inkjet Printers 113
Large Format Printers 72
----
324

Apart from that, there will be a long tail of utterly obsolete
printeres trailing into the distant past.

Indeed. And since 324 improvements have not been made to
printers in that time, most of those were a complete and utter
waste of time and money. Presumably making a new one
requires a lot of expense of tooling.

The marketing folks want new products because "new and improved"
sells. (Which means they're really "sales folks" vs "marketing folks,"
but that's another story.)

Not to me. I like to buy the same model I had before, if it worked well.. If it didn't, I'll be getting something from another manufacturer anyway.

Some models print more pages per minute than others, print both sides,
fax, copy, scan, etc, etc. Obviously more paper handling like two
sided is a completely different mechanical design. And faxing,
scanning involve both electronics and hardware.

So you maybe need about 5 models. Not 324.

But what's the
difference between lasers that put out 10 ppm vs 5 ppm single sided
other than gearing and maybe fuser wattage?

The amount of lying? I was about to buy a printer for work once which had a claim of a certain number of pages per minute. Turns out it was "blank page speed" - so the speed it can take paper from the back and place it at the front, without actually printing. An absolutely pointless number.

Other than for marketing purposes the number of different printers
from one maker serves no useful purpose.

If one manufacturer just stuck to a single model and only
changed it every 10 years, they could make a fortune.

In a strictly rational world, yes. But in the world we live in it's
more likely they'd go broke... because too many consumers want
something "new." Never mind that it isn't improved... although it
might say it is... or the improvement might be inconsequential.

That would be true if most printer buyers were women.

I think we all know folks who trade in their cars every couple of
years... sometimes just to buy the latest version of the same model.

I know people who want a new one so it's more reliable than their aging one. But not for a different model, unless it's a major upgrade - as in larger or faster or more economical.

Maybe the remote will start the new car when the old one didn't do
that. But maybe the remote will no longer lower the windows. If the
car hasn't been abused, "run hard and put away wet," etc., it's far
more economical to keep the car longer. New car dealers and
manufacturers would be in trouble without these people who trade
often... and so would used car dealers.

It's more economical to buy a very old car. £500 will get you one that lasts for about 4 years with 15-20K miles per year.

Took me a while to realize that a laser printer was a bit less than
half the cost of an inkjet in terms of the cost of consumables.

Bull****. Toner is very expensive indeed. You would only be correct if you were comparing genuine cartridges. Fake ink is far cheaper, but with toner cartridges, most of the cost is for actually making the toner, so the fake ones aren't much less.

Then a bit of research comparing the hardware cost found that a laser printer
vs the typical "all in one" or "many in one" inkjet were similarly priced.

All in one inkjets are only about £40-£50. I assume lasers are far more, and require changing drums, fusers, rollers, .....

Somewhere after giving up on Epson inkjets, I gave cheap (at the time)
Brother printers a try... where you could get a no frills printer with
cartridges really cheap, sell it when the cartridges ran out and buy a
new printer... all cheaper than you could buy new cartridges.

Er.... at my work I bought 50 Brother inkjet printers, then bought cartridges at £1 each. It worked out at 1p a page to print in colour. That ****ed off the management who had just given us a survey that showed the Xerox colour photocopier they were foisting on us was only 6p a page, and that inkjets were 14p a page. Turns out the survey was carried out on their behalf by the underhanded Xerox themselves, and they used HP inkjets with genuine cartridges for the comparison. I refused to stand for this fraud and bought the inkjets.

There was an advantage even considering original cartridges were only
partially full. That sort of marketing by Brother only lasted a year
or so, after which I got the HP laser.

What prices were these printers and cartridges?!

The laser is even cheaper overall... and I buy only OEM cartridges. A
friend tried refills from a local shop and colors went completely
wonky. Place said they got a bad lot of toner. That couldn't possibly
be the norm or refill places couldn't stay in business.

Refilling toner is a bad idea. I dropped a bottle of it, luckily in a concrete floored room without a smoke alarm. It took the whole day to settle.