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#1
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Raw socket support in Winsock ?
Hi,
I came across the below link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_socket I am eager to know the reasons for the raw socket support in the Winsock interface during the initial Windows XP release ? Any specific reasons / uses for it ? Thx in advans, Karthik Balaguru |
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#2
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Raw socket support in Winsock ?
karthikbalaguru wrote:
I am eager to know the reasons for the raw socket support in the Winsock interface during the initial Windows XP release ? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...48(VS.85).aspx |
#3
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Raw socket support in Winsock ?
On Jan 5, 4:54*pm, Andrew McLaren wrote:
karthikbalaguru wrote: I am eager to know the reasons for the raw socket support in the Winsock interface during the initial Windows XP release ? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...48(VS.85).aspx Thx for the link ! As per the link, the ability to send traffic over raw sockets has been restricted in several ways in new Windows releases after 'Windows XP with SP2' . The reasons for the below changes w.r.t Raw Sockets are not clearly mentioned in that link . Any ideas ? 1) TCP data cannot be sent over raw sockets. But why ? 2) A call to the bind function with a raw socket is not allowed. But why ? Any ideas ? But, the below reason w.r.t raw socket & UDP datagram support is clear - 3) UDP datagrams with an invalid source address cannot be sent over raw sockets. The IP source address for any outgoing UDP datagram must exist on a network interface or the datagram is dropped. This change was made to limit the ability of malicious code to create distributed denial-of-service attacks and limits the ability to send spoofed packets (TCP/IP packets with a forged source IP address). Thx in advans, Karthik Balaguru |
#4
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Raw socket support in Winsock ?
karthikbalaguru wrote:
On Jan 5, 4:54 pm, Andrew McLaren wrote: karthikbalaguru wrote: I am eager to know the reasons for the raw socket support in the Winsock interface during the initial Windows XP release ? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...48(VS.85).aspx Thx for the link ! As per the link, the ability to send traffic over raw sockets has been restricted in several ways in new Windows releases after 'Windows XP with SP2' . The reasons for the below changes w.r.t Raw Sockets are not clearly mentioned in that link . Any ideas ? 1) TCP data cannot be sent over raw sockets. But why ? 2) A call to the bind function with a raw socket is not allowed. But why ? Any ideas ? But, the below reason w.r.t raw socket & UDP datagram support is clear - 3) UDP datagrams with an invalid source address cannot be sent over raw sockets. The IP source address for any outgoing UDP datagram must exist on a network interface or the datagram is dropped. This change was made to limit the ability of malicious code to create distributed denial-of-service attacks and limits the ability to send spoofed packets (TCP/IP packets with a forged source IP address). It's all to do with security. [quote] Restricted traffic over raw sockets Detailed description A very small number of Windows applications make use of raw IP sockets, which provide an industry-standard way for applications to create TCP/IP packets with fewer integrity and security checks by the TCP/IP stack. The Windows implementation of TCP/IP still supports receiving traffic on raw IP sockets. However, the ability to send traffic over raw sockets has been restricted in two ways: * TCP data cannot be sent over raw sockets. * UDP datagrams with invalid source addresses cannot be sent over raw sockets. The IP source address for any outgoing UDP datagram must exist on a network interface or the datagram is dropped. Why is this change important? What threats does it help mitigate? This change limits the ability of malicious code to create distributed denial-of-service attacks and limits the ability to send spoofed packets, which are TCP/IP packets with a forged source IP address. [end quote] http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/l.../bb457156.aspx John |
#5
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Raw socket support in Winsock ?
On Jan 5, 8:37*pm, John John - MVP wrote:
karthikbalaguru wrote: On Jan 5, 4:54 pm, Andrew McLaren wrote: karthikbalaguru wrote: I am eager to know the reasons for the raw socket support in the Winsock interface during the initial Windows XP release ? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...48(VS.85).aspx Thx for the link ! As per the link, the ability to send traffic over raw sockets has been restricted in several ways in new Windows releases after 'Windows XP with SP2' . The reasons for the below changes w.r.t Raw Sockets are not clearly mentioned in that link . Any ideas ? 1) TCP data cannot be sent over raw sockets. But why ? 2) A call to the bind function with a raw socket is not allowed. But why ? Any ideas ? But, the below reason w.r.t raw socket & UDP datagram support is clear - 3) UDP datagrams with an invalid source address cannot be sent over raw sockets. The IP source address for any outgoing UDP datagram must exist on a network interface or the datagram is dropped. This change was made to limit the ability of malicious code to create distributed denial-of-service attacks and limits the ability to send spoofed packets (TCP/IP packets with a forged source IP address). It's all to do with security. Okay. Agreed !! But, why is this change not present in the versions earlier to 'Windows XP with SP2' ? The below link seems to convey that these restrictions do not apply to Windows Server 2008 , Windows Server 2003, or to versions of the operating system earlier than Windows XP with SP2 . But, Why ? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...8(VS.85).aspx# [quote] Restricted traffic over raw sockets Detailed description A very small number of Windows applications make use of raw IP sockets, which provide an industry-standard way for applications to create TCP/IP packets with fewer integrity and security checks by the TCP/IP stack. The Windows implementation of TCP/IP still supports receiving traffic on raw IP sockets. However, the ability to send traffic over raw sockets has been restricted in two ways: * *TCP data cannot be sent over raw sockets. * *UDP datagrams with invalid source addresses cannot be sent over raw sockets. The IP source address for any outgoing UDP datagram must exist on a network interface or the datagram is dropped. Why is this change important? What threats does it help mitigate? This change limits the ability of malicious code to create distributed denial-of-service attacks and limits the ability to send spoofed packets, which are TCP/IP packets with a forged source IP address. [end quote] http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/l.../bb457156.aspx Thx for the link ! The above link conveys that this change helps to limit the speed at which malicious programs, such as viruses and worms, spread to uninfected computers as Malicious programs often attempt to reach uninfected computers by opening simultaneous connections to random IP addresses. Thx in advans, Karthik Balaguru |
#6
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Raw socket support in Winsock ?
karthikbalaguru wrote:
On Jan 5, 8:37 pm, John John - MVP wrote: karthikbalaguru wrote: On Jan 5, 4:54 pm, Andrew McLaren wrote: karthikbalaguru wrote: I am eager to know the reasons for the raw socket support in the Winsock interface during the initial Windows XP release ? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...48(VS.85).aspx Thx for the link ! As per the link, the ability to send traffic over raw sockets has been restricted in several ways in new Windows releases after 'Windows XP with SP2' . The reasons for the below changes w.r.t Raw Sockets are not clearly mentioned in that link . Any ideas ? 1) TCP data cannot be sent over raw sockets. But why ? 2) A call to the bind function with a raw socket is not allowed. But why ? Any ideas ? But, the below reason w.r.t raw socket & UDP datagram support is clear - 3) UDP datagrams with an invalid source address cannot be sent over raw sockets. The IP source address for any outgoing UDP datagram must exist on a network interface or the datagram is dropped. This change was made to limit the ability of malicious code to create distributed denial-of-service attacks and limits the ability to send spoofed packets (TCP/IP packets with a forged source IP address). It's all to do with security. Okay. Agreed !! But, why is this change not present in the versions earlier to 'Windows XP with SP2' ? It was changed by way of a security update after SP1 (but before SP2), but there was a workaround that still allowed users to circumvent the security fix and still allow traffic over raw sockets. With SP2 it was decided to plug this workaround too. Why was this even present in the 'gold' or original RTM Windows XP version? I don't know, probably because it was thought that there was a legitimate use and need for this, but maybe after Windows XP was released Microsoft might have had a change of mind and decided that this feature should not be enabled on "client" or "consumer" versions of their operating systems. Before SP2 came about embarrassing security flaws were being exposed on a regular basis and Microsoft made an all out effort to plug a lot of holes in Windows XP, the word then was that almost all other projects were on hold or slowed down while Microsoft concentrated on security and worked on SP2 for Windows XP, even Vista's release was pushed back while Microsoft worked at securing their flagship product. For all it's worth Unix and Linux permit traffic over raw sockets and the Windows server versions also allow this, although I'm unsure if Server 2008 still allows it. I think that it's probably just that with all kinds of bumbling users on XP a decision was made to "protect the users from themselves" so they plugged up raw sockets as a preemptive strike against possible exploits. But that is just what I think at this time... I don't know the exact reasons behind these decisions. John |
#7
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Raw socket support in Winsock ?
John John
W2K8 R2 does allow it but not W2K8 stand alone except for the Enterprise version -- Peter Please Reply to Newsgroup for the benefit of others Requests for assistance by email can not and will not be acknowledged. "John John - MVP" wrote in message ... karthikbalaguru wrote: On Jan 5, 8:37 pm, John John - MVP wrote: karthikbalaguru wrote: On Jan 5, 4:54 pm, Andrew McLaren wrote: karthikbalaguru wrote: I am eager to know the reasons for the raw socket support in the Winsock interface during the initial Windows XP release ? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...48(VS.85).aspx Thx for the link ! As per the link, the ability to send traffic over raw sockets has been restricted in several ways in new Windows releases after 'Windows XP with SP2' . The reasons for the below changes w.r.t Raw Sockets are not clearly mentioned in that link . Any ideas ? 1) TCP data cannot be sent over raw sockets. But why ? 2) A call to the bind function with a raw socket is not allowed. But why ? Any ideas ? But, the below reason w.r.t raw socket & UDP datagram support is clear - 3) UDP datagrams with an invalid source address cannot be sent over raw sockets. The IP source address for any outgoing UDP datagram must exist on a network interface or the datagram is dropped. This change was made to limit the ability of malicious code to create distributed denial-of-service attacks and limits the ability to send spoofed packets (TCP/IP packets with a forged source IP address). It's all to do with security. Okay. Agreed !! But, why is this change not present in the versions earlier to 'Windows XP with SP2' ? It was changed by way of a security update after SP1 (but before SP2), but there was a workaround that still allowed users to circumvent the security fix and still allow traffic over raw sockets. With SP2 it was decided to plug this workaround too. Why was this even present in the 'gold' or original RTM Windows XP version? I don't know, probably because it was thought that there was a legitimate use and need for this, but maybe after Windows XP was released Microsoft might have had a change of mind and decided that this feature should not be enabled on "client" or "consumer" versions of their operating systems. Before SP2 came about embarrassing security flaws were being exposed on a regular basis and Microsoft made an all out effort to plug a lot of holes in Windows XP, the word then was that almost all other projects were on hold or slowed down while Microsoft concentrated on security and worked on SP2 for Windows XP, even Vista's release was pushed back while Microsoft worked at securing their flagship product. For all it's worth Unix and Linux permit traffic over raw sockets and the Windows server versions also allow this, although I'm unsure if Server 2008 still allows it. I think that it's probably just that with all kinds of bumbling users on XP a decision was made to "protect the users from themselves" so they plugged up raw sockets as a preemptive strike against possible exploits. But that is just what I think at this time... I don't know the exact reasons behind these decisions. John |
#8
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Raw socket support in Winsock ?
On Jan 6, 1:46*am, "Peter Foldes" wrote:
"John John - MVP" wrote in . .. karthikbalaguru wrote: On Jan 5, 8:37 pm, John John - MVP wrote: karthikbalaguru wrote: On Jan 5, 4:54 pm, Andrew McLaren wrote: karthikbalaguru wrote: I am eager to know the reasons for the raw socket support in the Winsock interface during the initial Windows XP release ? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...48(VS.85).aspx Thx for the link ! As per the link, the ability to send traffic over raw sockets has been restricted in several ways in new Windows releases after 'Windows XP with SP2' . The reasons for the below changes w.r.t Raw Sockets are not clearly mentioned in that link . Any ideas ? 1) TCP data cannot be sent over raw sockets. But why ? 2) A call to the bind function with a raw socket is not allowed. But why ? Any ideas ? But, the below reason w.r.t raw socket & UDP datagram support is clear - 3) UDP datagrams with an invalid source address cannot be sent over raw sockets. The IP source address for any outgoing UDP datagram must exist on a network interface or the datagram is dropped. This change was made to limit the ability of malicious code to create distributed denial-of-service attacks and limits the ability to send spoofed packets (TCP/IP packets with a forged source IP address). It's all to do with security. Okay. Agreed !! But, why is this change not present in the versions earlier to 'Windows XP with SP2' ? It was changed by way of a security update after SP1 (but before SP2), but there was a workaround that still allowed users to circumvent the security fix and still allow traffic over raw sockets. *With SP2 it was decided to plug this workaround too. Why was this even present in the 'gold' or original RTM Windows XP version? *I don't know, probably because it was thought that there was a legitimate use and need for this, but maybe after Windows XP was released Microsoft might have had a change of mind and decided that this feature should not be enabled on "client" or "consumer" versions of their operating systems. *Before SP2 came about embarrassing security flaws were being exposed on a regular basis and Microsoft made an all out effort to plug a lot of holes in Windows XP, the word then was that almost all other projects were on hold or slowed down while Microsoft concentrated on security and worked on SP2 for Windows XP, even Vista's release was pushed back while Microsoft worked at securing their flagship product. For all it's worth Unix and Linux permit traffic over raw sockets and the Windows server versions also allow this, although I'm unsure if Server 2008 still allows it. *I think that it's probably just that with all kinds of bumbling users on XP a decision was made to "protect the users from themselves" so they plugged up raw sockets as a preemptive strike against possible exploits. *But that is just what I think at this time... I don't know the exact reasons behind these decisions. John John W2K8 R2 does allow it but not W2K8 stand alone except for the Enterprise version Would cygwin also not support the Raw sockets as Winsock has been is used by it ? But, i need raw socket for an application that i am trying to execute from cygwin in 'Windows XP with SP2' & Vista . How can this be achieved ? In Iinux, it seems that there is restriction at user-level (root/normal user) to use the raw sockets. So, it was not a problem. Thx in advans, Karthik Balaguru |
#9
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Raw socket support in Winsock ?
karthikbalaguru wrote:
On Jan 6, 1:46 am, "Peter Foldes" wrote: "John John - MVP" wrote in . .. karthikbalaguru wrote: On Jan 5, 8:37 pm, John John - MVP wrote: karthikbalaguru wrote: On Jan 5, 4:54 pm, Andrew McLaren wrote: karthikbalaguru wrote: I am eager to know the reasons for the raw socket support in the Winsock interface during the initial Windows XP release ? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...48(VS.85).aspx Thx for the link ! As per the link, the ability to send traffic over raw sockets has been restricted in several ways in new Windows releases after 'Windows XP with SP2' . The reasons for the below changes w.r.t Raw Sockets are not clearly mentioned in that link . Any ideas ? 1) TCP data cannot be sent over raw sockets. But why ? 2) A call to the bind function with a raw socket is not allowed. But why ? Any ideas ? But, the below reason w.r.t raw socket & UDP datagram support is clear - 3) UDP datagrams with an invalid source address cannot be sent over raw sockets. The IP source address for any outgoing UDP datagram must exist on a network interface or the datagram is dropped. This change was made to limit the ability of malicious code to create distributed denial-of-service attacks and limits the ability to send spoofed packets (TCP/IP packets with a forged source IP address). It's all to do with security. Okay. Agreed !! But, why is this change not present in the versions earlier to 'Windows XP with SP2' ? It was changed by way of a security update after SP1 (but before SP2), but there was a workaround that still allowed users to circumvent the security fix and still allow traffic over raw sockets. With SP2 it was decided to plug this workaround too. Why was this even present in the 'gold' or original RTM Windows XP version? I don't know, probably because it was thought that there was a legitimate use and need for this, but maybe after Windows XP was released Microsoft might have had a change of mind and decided that this feature should not be enabled on "client" or "consumer" versions of their operating systems. Before SP2 came about embarrassing security flaws were being exposed on a regular basis and Microsoft made an all out effort to plug a lot of holes in Windows XP, the word then was that almost all other projects were on hold or slowed down while Microsoft concentrated on security and worked on SP2 for Windows XP, even Vista's release was pushed back while Microsoft worked at securing their flagship product. For all it's worth Unix and Linux permit traffic over raw sockets and the Windows server versions also allow this, although I'm unsure if Server 2008 still allows it. I think that it's probably just that with all kinds of bumbling users on XP a decision was made to "protect the users from themselves" so they plugged up raw sockets as a preemptive strike against possible exploits. But that is just what I think at this time... I don't know the exact reasons behind these decisions. John John W2K8 R2 does allow it but not W2K8 stand alone except for the Enterprise version Would cygwin also not support the Raw sockets as Winsock has been is used by it ? Ask the folks in the cygwin help groups, they may know of a workaround. But, i need raw socket for an application that i am trying to execute from cygwin in 'Windows XP with SP2' & Vista . How can this be achieved ? Use a driver that doesn't use the Windows TCP/IP stack, maybe try WinPcap. In Iinux, it seems that there is restriction at user-level (root/normal user) to use the raw sockets. So, it was not a problem. That is also sort of how NT4/Windows 2000 and Windows XP Pro did it, it was/is only allowed with administrative privileges. But for SP2 and later it was plugged for all users on XP. John |
#10
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Raw socket support in Winsock ?
On Jan 6, 6:44*pm, John John - MVP wrote:
karthikbalaguru wrote: On Jan 6, 1:46 am, "Peter Foldes" wrote: "John John - MVP" wrote in . .. karthikbalaguru wrote: On Jan 5, 8:37 pm, John John - MVP wrote: karthikbalaguru wrote: On Jan 5, 4:54 pm, Andrew McLaren wrote: karthikbalaguru wrote: I am eager to know the reasons for the raw socket support in the Winsock interface during the initial Windows XP release ? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...48(VS.85).aspx Thx for the link ! As per the link, the ability to send traffic over raw sockets has been restricted in several ways in new Windows releases after 'Windows XP with SP2' . The reasons for the below changes w.r.t Raw Sockets are not clearly mentioned in that link . Any ideas ? 1) TCP data cannot be sent over raw sockets. But why ? 2) A call to the bind function with a raw socket is not allowed. But why ? Any ideas ? But, the below reason w.r.t raw socket & UDP datagram support is clear - 3) UDP datagrams with an invalid source address cannot be sent over raw sockets. The IP source address for any outgoing UDP datagram must exist on a network interface or the datagram is dropped. This change was made to limit the ability of malicious code to create distributed denial-of-service attacks and limits the ability to send spoofed packets (TCP/IP packets with a forged source IP address). It's all to do with security. Okay. Agreed !! But, why is this change not present in the versions earlier to 'Windows XP with SP2' ? It was changed by way of a security update after SP1 (but before SP2), but there was a workaround that still allowed users to circumvent the security fix and still allow traffic over raw sockets. *With SP2 it was decided to plug this workaround too. Why was this even present in the 'gold' or original RTM Windows XP version? *I don't know, probably because it was thought that there was a legitimate use and need for this, but maybe after Windows XP was released Microsoft might have had a change of mind and decided that this feature should not be enabled on "client" or "consumer" versions of their operating systems. *Before SP2 came about embarrassing security flaws were being exposed on a regular basis and Microsoft made an all out effort to plug a lot of holes in Windows XP, the word then was that almost all other projects were on hold or slowed down while Microsoft concentrated on security and worked on SP2 for Windows XP, even Vista's release was pushed back while Microsoft worked at securing their flagship product. For all it's worth Unix and Linux permit traffic over raw sockets and the Windows server versions also allow this, although I'm unsure if Server 2008 still allows it. *I think that it's probably just that with all kinds of bumbling users on XP a decision was made to "protect the users from themselves" so they plugged up raw sockets as a preemptive strike against possible exploits. *But that is just what I think at this time... I don't know the exact reasons behind these decisions. John John W2K8 R2 does allow it but not W2K8 stand alone *except for the Enterprise version Would cygwin also not support the Raw sockets as Winsock has been is used by it ? Ask the folks in the cygwin help groups, they may know of a workaround. Okay, I checked with cygwin help groups. http://www.cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2010-01/msg00183.html But, i need raw socket for an application that i am trying to execute from cygwin in 'Windows XP with SP2' & Vista . How can this be achieved ? Use a driver that doesn't use the Windows TCP/IP stack, maybe try WinPcap.. This seems to the right approach ! WinPcap for raw sockets in windows seems to be the only only way out as of now ! In Iinux, it seems that there is restriction at user-level (root/normal user) to use the raw sockets. So, it was not a problem. That is also sort of how NT4/Windows 2000 and Windows XP Pro did it, it was/is only allowed with administrative privileges. *But for SP2 and later it was plugged for all users on XP. I wonder how linux is secure without plugging off while windows had to plug off to be secure ! Thx, Karthik Balaguru |
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