MS's support logic

Mayayana wrote:
| I'm still waiting for an explanation of maintenance.
| I don't do any maintenance.
|
| I wipe the spittle from my screen.
| Vacuum up the cheetos, stuff like that.
|

I think that's a Linux-only requirement. We Windows
and Mac people are somewhat more dignified.

I got a kick out of your Mac resale value chart. I'm
assuming, though, that it went with a webpage
somewhere that indicates when "then" and "now"
are.
This is actually the first time I've heard of Mac
people thinking in terms of resale value. I didn't
know there was a market for resale. But given their
cost and limited repairability, I guess that makes sense.

The resale value comes from the ability to reuse
still-owned software. Like some expensive movie editor
that only runs on the PowerPC machines or something.

You certainly wouldn't buy the old machines for their
performance level, as they sucked the day you bought them.
My G4 I think, is around 1.25GHz or so. Never was
a "screaming" fast machine.

The repairability varies widely from one machine
design concept to another. My G4 takes standard PCI
cards, and I even have a "Windows Card" in there as
a disk controller. It has dual drivers, and works with
either OS. I also have a bog standard 2906 in it,
to run the SCSI scanner.

So that machine, if I blow out the USB port, I can
stick in a $5 USB2 card and fix it. As long as I select
a card "known to support sleep", which is what most
users want. I don't leave the machine in sleep,
so this is hardly a concern for me. I turn it
off when not in usage, because the fan noise is
irritating (grumbling noise). The power supply
also gets a little warm in standby, which isn't good
for it. The power supply is not standard ATX, so if
that blows, then that would be a problem.

That machine has never ever had a detectable RAM error.
Which is more than I can say for any other machine in
the house. And I don't understand what they did to make
that happen. The machine has four sticks of DDR333 RAM
on what I assume is a single bus segment. Which should
suck from a signal integrity viewpoint. Yet, I've never
had reason to question that subsystem, as it has worked
just fine. The machine has been quite stable, when I
was using it regularly. Now, it gets switched on about
once a year, for nostalgia reasons. The clock battery
is dead on it, which I thought was supposed to kill
booting, but it still works anyway.

*******

If you don't own any ancient Mac software,
there would be little reason to buy the
older box.

*******

Mine is a nasty form-factor, in that the case is a
clamshell. To work on it, I put it on the kitchen floor,
so there will be enough room to open it up. It's not
as convenient as the PCs here, where I just take
off the side panel to work on them. The clamshell design
also means there has to be provision for bending of
stuff when it opens. And I'm careful to not over-stress
the hinges. It's one of the reasons I don't make hardware
changes to it, all that often.

If you had the new Mac Pro trash can, well that
wouldn't be much fun at all. You'd need deep pockets
to make one of those practical. Like some sort of box
to convert Thunderbolt, into an expansion chassis.
Example of an expansion chassis for $1000.

http://www.magma.com/expressbox-3t

Paul

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 16:13:53 -0400, Mayayana wrote:

I build more often than I need to, for the fun of it

One can't argue with that :-)

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 15:33:34 +0000 (UTC), Darth_Hideous wrote:

My son, his fiancee, and many of their friends have Macs, iPhones,
iPads, iPods...
Those devices cooperate very well with each other.
That is their interest in that matter.

But, my son needed a Windows laptop to run a type of automotive
diagnostic software, so he has that too.

And, he has a Windows gaming PC.

His interest in Linux makes me think he looks like the milkman.

Oh, well, better than the modern equivalent, the cable installer.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On 2014-08-23, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 15:33:34 +0000 (UTC), Darth_Hideous wrote:

My son, his fiancee, and many of their friends have Macs, iPhones,
iPads, iPods...
Those devices cooperate very well with each other.
That is their interest in that matter.

But, my son needed a Windows laptop to run a type of automotive
diagnostic software, so he has that too.

And, he has a Windows gaming PC.

His interest in Linux makes me think he looks like the milkman.

Oh, well, better than the modern equivalent, the cable installer.


I'm not modern enough to pay for 400 channels of goofiness, when 30
will suffice.

I have seen cable guy kids, and when they don't drool on everything,
they're tolerable.

--
An effective way to deal with predators is to taste terrible.

Darth_Hideous wrote:
On 2014-08-23, A wrote:
Darth_Hideous wrote:
On 2014-08-23, A wrote:
Mayayana wrote:
| I'm still waiting for an explanation of maintenance.
| I don't do any maintenance.
|
| I wipe the spittle from my screen.
| Vacuum up the cheetos, stuff like that.
|

I think that's a Linux-only requirement. We Windows
and Mac people are somewhat more dignified.

I got a kick out of your Mac resale value chart. I'm
assuming, though, that it went with a webpage
somewhere that indicates when "then" and "now"
are.
This is actually the first time I've heard of Mac
people thinking in terms of resale value. I didn't
know there was a market for resale. But given their
cost and limited repairability, I guess that makes sense.



I bought the first Mac for $5000 with an external "hard drive" that you
could put a diskette into, legal size printer and backpack. I sold it
for $6000 in Venezuela. This was in 84 and compared to today's machines,
it sure didn't do much, although it would probably be worth more now to
collectors.


What was in the backpack that was worth $4000?


I don't have the receipt anymore but I also had a keyboard and a mouse.
The backpack was not that expensive but your knew that, didn't you?


I figured Venezuela,backpack,smuggling.
I watch TV you know.
Sometimes.


No, that was Mexico but I'd rather not reveal any more details

--
A

Darth_Hideous wrote:
On 2014-08-23, A wrote:
Darth_Hideous wrote:
On 2014-08-23, A wrote:
Mayayana wrote:
| I'm still waiting for an explanation of maintenance.
| I don't do any maintenance.
|
| I wipe the spittle from my screen.
| Vacuum up the cheetos, stuff like that.
|

I think that's a Linux-only requirement. We Windows
and Mac people are somewhat more dignified.

I got a kick out of your Mac resale value chart. I'm
assuming, though, that it went with a webpage
somewhere that indicates when "then" and "now"
are.
This is actually the first time I've heard of Mac
people thinking in terms of resale value. I didn't
know there was a market for resale. But given their
cost and limited repairability, I guess that makes sense.



I bought the first Mac for $5000 with an external "hard drive" that you
could put a diskette into, legal size printer and backpack. I sold it
for $6000 in Venezuela. This was in 84 and compared to today's machines,
it sure didn't do much, although it would probably be worth more now to
collectors.


What was in the backpack that was worth $4000?


I don't have the receipt anymore but I also had a keyboard and a mouse.
The backpack was not that expensive but your knew that, didn't you?


I figured Venezuela,backpack,smuggling.
I watch TV you know.
Sometimes.


The backpack was this one:

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+...tm%3B274%3B358


--
A

A wrote:
Darth_Hideous wrote:
On 2014-08-23, A wrote:
Darth_Hideous wrote:
On 2014-08-23, A wrote:
Mayayana wrote:
| I'm still waiting for an explanation of maintenance.
| I don't do any maintenance.
|
| I wipe the spittle from my screen.
| Vacuum up the cheetos, stuff like that.
|

I think that's a Linux-only requirement. We Windows
and Mac people are somewhat more dignified.

I got a kick out of your Mac resale value chart. I'm
assuming, though, that it went with a webpage
somewhere that indicates when "then" and "now"
are.
This is actually the first time I've heard of Mac
people thinking in terms of resale value. I didn't
know there was a market for resale. But given their
cost and limited repairability, I guess that makes sense.



I bought the first Mac for $5000 with an external "hard drive" that
you
could put a diskette into, legal size printer and backpack. I sold it
for $6000 in Venezuela. This was in 84 and compared to today's
machines,
it sure didn't do much, although it would probably be worth more
now to
collectors.


What was in the backpack that was worth $4000?


I don't have the receipt anymore but I also had a keyboard and a mouse.
The backpack was not that expensive but your knew that, didn't you?


I figured Venezuela,backpack,smuggling.
I watch TV you know.
Sometimes.


The backpack was this one:

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+...tm%3B274%3B358

We had a dude at work who used a setup like that.
So he could work on documents in the evening.

He didn't seem entirely happy with the thing,
but part of the problem was you had to sign that
bundle out and back in again, at the security desk.
Which would require partially unpacking it.

The fun part on those old things, was scrolling
from side to side, to see your document. The screen
wasn't big enough to represent a single sheet of
typing paper. But to make up for it, it did look
reasonably good.

Paul

Paul wrote:
A wrote:
Darth_Hideous wrote:
On 2014-08-23, A wrote:
Darth_Hideous wrote:
On 2014-08-23, A wrote:
Mayayana wrote:
| I'm still waiting for an explanation of maintenance.
| I don't do any maintenance.
|
| I wipe the spittle from my screen.
| Vacuum up the cheetos, stuff like that.
|

I think that's a Linux-only requirement. We Windows
and Mac people are somewhat more dignified.

I got a kick out of your Mac resale value chart. I'm
assuming, though, that it went with a webpage
somewhere that indicates when "then" and "now"
are.
This is actually the first time I've heard of Mac
people thinking in terms of resale value. I didn't
know there was a market for resale. But given their
cost and limited repairability, I guess that makes sense.



I bought the first Mac for $5000 with an external "hard drive"
that you
could put a diskette into, legal size printer and backpack. I sold it
for $6000 in Venezuela. This was in 84 and compared to today's
machines,
it sure didn't do much, although it would probably be worth more
now to
collectors.


What was in the backpack that was worth $4000?


I don't have the receipt anymore but I also had a keyboard and a mouse.
The backpack was not that expensive but your knew that, didn't you?


I figured Venezuela,backpack,smuggling.
I watch TV you know.
Sometimes.


The backpack was this one:

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+...tm%3B274%3B358


We had a dude at work who used a setup like that.
So he could work on documents in the evening.

He didn't seem entirely happy with the thing,
but part of the problem was you had to sign that
bundle out and back in again, at the security desk.
Which would require partially unpacking it.

The fun part on those old things, was scrolling
from side to side, to see your document. The screen
wasn't big enough to represent a single sheet of
typing paper. But to make up for it, it did look
reasonably good.

Paul

It was better than a typewriter and it did look cool at the time. Prices
sure have come down though! Apple pushed it as being able to do desktop
publishing. The printer was noisy though and slow.

--
A

In message , Darth_Hideous
writes:

You guys need to use Linux.
Make a PC look like a Mac, and gouge 'em


That assumes I _want_ to look like a Mac (-:.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Anybody who thinks there can be unlimited growth in a static, limited
environment, is either mad or an economist. - Sir David Attenborough, in
Radio Times 10-16 November 2012

In message , Darth_Hideous
writes:
[]
But, my son needed a Windows laptop to run a type of automotive
diagnostic software, so he has that too.

And, he has a Windows gaming PC.

His interest in Linux makes me think he looks like the milkman.

I'm afraid that reference completely passes me by!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by."
- Douglas Adams

In message , mechanic
writes:
On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 16:36:21 -0400, Justin wrote:

I stopped reading here. This is why techies shouldn't run businesses.

Fortunately few do.

For other reasons, I'd say _un_fortunately few do!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by."
- Douglas Adams

In message , Ken Springer
writes:
[]
article is spot on. If over the life of PC1, let's say 5 years, you
spend $3500 in keeping it going, but over the same amount of time Mac1
only cost you $1000, which computer has cost you less money at the end
of that 5 year period after you add in the $300 for the PC and the
$1000 for the Mac? And if you want to keep your operating costs down,
which one would you buy in the future?

Unfortunately, to paraphrase the line anyone selling a financial product
in the UK is obliged to say, "past performance is not necessarily an
indication of future".
[]
What I do think is, many find Apple products easier to use, especially
if they are not tech savvy. They just want to use the device, not have
to have a degree before it's functional for them. So much depends on

That's a _little_ harsh: I've known people who don't find Apple OSs at
all intuitive: I'm one of them. I think having got used to Windows' way
of doing things doesn't help.

the type of human brain the individual has, and their needs/desires.
I've one friend who could never figure out how to use Windows, but has
no problem using her Mac. (Just wish she was interested in solving
some software issues, but that's another story.) And I have another
friend who has a truly upscale Win8 laptop that hates Macs. But they
are two different types of people, with differing wants/needs/desires,
which is a factor usually left unaccounted for when you get into the
Mac vs. Windows arguments.

Yes, that's a fair description: the two different ways of working do
appeal, to rather a simplification but to some extent, to different
kinds of brain - with neither (kind of brain) being _better_.

As I've posted many times, I've a Win 7/8 computer I assembled that
will run circles around this 5.5 year old Mac I'm writing this on.
But... I have absolutely no desire to move to Windows for my primary

Some of that's probably familiarity, in the same way that some of us
have no desire/intention/whatever of leaving XP/7 for 8, let alone Mac.

computer usage. No Patch Tuesday issues, rare concerns about Malware,
etc. I can be relatively sure I can turn it on and use it, and not
wait for it to finish updating.

Well, I've been using this (XP) machine for some years, and don't
remember any Patch Tuesday issues, and haven't had any malware. I
usually get update delays when I shut down, rather than start up, but I
usually leave it to shut itself down then.

For what it's worth, my tablet is Android. LOL

Ditto. The Apple ones did look a _little_ nicer on the UI front, but not
enough to me to be worth three to six times the price (-:.
[]
For me it's not really an issue. I don't mind dealing
with security and privacy online. I don't enable risky
browser behaviors. I avoid shopping online, and I
would never do anything like banking online. In short,
I don't have any juicy data on my PC for malware to
steal, even if I got an infection.

And this is where you are in the vast minority of computer users. I'm

I guess you'd say me too.

not quite this conservative, but I do practice a version of "safe hex"
that fits what I want to do. The downside of your level of
conservatism is you are being left behind (that's an observation, not a
judgement) and you are possibly losing out on things that may be of
interest to you.

Indeed. In my case that'd have to be things that would save me time on
things I do already, which I'm willing to concede might be the case: in
other words, I don't have enough time in my life to do the things I
already want to, so new things ...

An example of this for me is delving into local history. Because of
the internet I've access to books and information I'd never even known
about otherwise. It's been very interesting to see how facts of 100+
years ago have morphed into things that never happened. :-)


(Is your access to such matters easier with Mac? Not a loaded question -
I can see they might be. Or, of course, you're more familiar with how to
do them on the Mac.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by."
- Douglas Adams

In message , Ken Springer
writes:
[]
But the addiction to the phones isn't limited to the younger
generation, either. :-(
[]
Addiction is the right word. Maybe even lemmings fits. LOL
[]
Though I do agree that many of the conversations you overhear _are_
inane, I will concede that the fobile moan _has_ made a big difference
to some kinds of trade - being almost always accessible, even when out
on a job, has helped them a lot.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by."
- Douglas Adams

On Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:54:18 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In message , Darth_Hideous
writes:
[]
But, my son needed a Windows laptop to run a type of automotive
diagnostic software, so he has that too.

And, he has a Windows gaming PC.

His interest in Linux makes me think he looks like the milkman.

I'm afraid that reference completely passes me by!

D_H's son's interests are different from his father's, but might be
similar to those of the neighborhood milkman.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Sun, 24 Aug 2014 15:43:40 -0700, Gene E. Bloch wrote:

On Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:54:18 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In message , Darth_Hideous
writes:
[]
But, my son needed a Windows laptop to run a type of automotive
diagnostic software, so he has that too.

And, he has a Windows gaming PC.

His interest in Linux makes me think he looks like the milkman.

I'm afraid that reference completely passes me by!

D_H's son's interests are different from his father's, but might be
similar to those of the neighborhood milkman.

Sorry for the ambiguity. I'll rephrase it:

D_H's son's interests are different from D_H's, but might be
similar to those of the neighborhood milkman.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)