Window 8.1 tablets

Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 08:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and
tablets on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for
desktop PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be
the same.

I think this is exactly what you have with OS X and iOS. 2 different
operating systems, but visually they closer and closer with each new
version, and better integration.

It's exactly what I have with Windows 7 and Android. I use my computer
as a computer and my phone as a phone. This has never been a problem
before, so why is it suddenly a problem now?

Fascinating! I haven't seen any apps for my Android that run on any of my
Windows machines. What did you find that does?

--
best regards,

Neil

Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 07:53 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Caver1 wrote:
On 10/18/2014 03:57 PM, Neil wrote:
[...]
For those who want to use the same apps on their desktop, with data
in sync via a cloud server, that notion is completely useless. So,
you're betting on the Luddites, and I'm betting on the rest of the
world. ;-)


You can have your data synced in the cloud with real programs not
just apps. The younger generations that only want to use their
phones or maybe tablets don't do any real work on them.

Based on the conversation "personal cloud drives", I'd say that
most people are not prepared to sync the data from their old
programs between their various devices, even if they ran on them,
which they don't. How interesting is it that you think you know what
all forms of "real work" are, and that by definition, if one is
using a phone or a tablet, they can't possibly be doing it? Take
another look at the original Blackberry user base, and the absurdity
of that notion becomes immediately obvious.


Syncing is not only between different devices it can also be between
different computers. ie home and work, laptop on the road and desktop
at home.....

That is exactly the kind of syncing I've been referring to all along, where
a desktop is one of the devices. Since I have NOT been talking about
importing/exporting "save as" data, which is only marginally useful, one
requirement would be that *the same apps* can be run on all of them.

I would really like to see someone use Autocad or the equivalent on a
phone or tablet and get any real work done. Maybe Media production.
Good Design work that has any complexity....

You keep referring to the minority of users (most users do NOT have AutoCad,
for example) as though it's the only form of "real work" that is done on
computers. FWIW, the folks that I know personally that primarily use
Blackberrys (or used to before iStuff...) make multiple times as much as the
folks that I personally know (including myself) that use AutoCad. I'd call
their usage "real work", too. YMMV.

--
best regards,

Neil

On 20/10/2014 11:55 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 08:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and
tablets on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for
desktop PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be
the same.

I think this is exactly what you have with OS X and iOS. 2 different
operating systems, but visually they closer and closer with each new
version, and better integration.

It's exactly what I have with Windows 7 and Android. I use my computer
as a computer and my phone as a phone. This has never been a problem
before, so why is it suddenly a problem now?

Fascinating! I haven't seen any apps for my Android that run on any of my
Windows machines. What did you find that does?


Where did he say he had?

--
Bob Tetbury, Gloucestershire, UK

Coles Law: Cabbage makes good salad.

On 10/20/14 3:11 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 19/10/2014 11:04 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/19/14 2:49 PM, Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 03:42 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/19/14 11:17 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 08:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and tablets
on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for desktop
PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be the same.

I think this is exactly what you have with OS X and iOS. 2 different
operating systems, but visually they closer and closer with each new
version, and better integration.

It's exactly what I have with Windows 7 and Android. I use my computer
as a computer and my phone as a phone. This has never been a problem
before, so why is it suddenly a problem now?

The difference may be in the amount of difficulty in sharing data
between the two OSes. Plus what your goal is with everything.

In the Apple world, if you want to enter something into the app on the
computer, and have it show up on the family's iPhone, it's a piece of
cake. For example, the wife is grocery shopping, and the list is on the
phone and the computer. You're at home, remember a couple items that
need to be added to the list. Type them in on the computer, and in a
few seconds, the list on the phone is updated.

Is that possible on what you have?



It is in Linux.

I wondered about that in Linux. But I was more curious if you could do
it between the Win7 and Android pieces.




You can. It's possible to share e-mail, contact lists, tasks, photos,
notes, calendars, favourites/bookmarks - more or less anything. My
system syncs them between two Windows 7 desktops, a Windows 7 laptop
(the laptop used to have Linux Mint, and I could have done it with that
too) and two Android phones. I don't think I paid for any software to do
it - all free. All that without paying through the nose for over-priced
Apple kit too.

There's no way to know the answer to this, but I wonder if you and
others would be doing all that syncing if it wasn't for Apple doing it
so well.

Follow up question, Bob, does the syncing happen in real time as I
described in another post? Or do you have to do it manually, asking for
the sync, or have it automatically scheduled to sync on a fixed
schedule, say every 15 minutes?



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 25.0
Thunderbird 24.6.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 05:55:05 -0500, "Neil Gould"
wrote:


It's exactly what I have with Windows 7 and Android. I use my computer
as a computer and my phone as a phone. This has never been a problem
before, so why is it suddenly a problem now?

Fascinating! I haven't seen any apps for my Android that run on any of my
Windows machines. What did you find that does?

None at all, but why would I need any? My phone is not required to run
Windows apps, because it functions perfectly well as a phone (and a
few other things) without them, and my computer is not required to
function as a phone, because it's not a phone, it's a computer.

Rod.

On 20/10/2014 1:32 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/20/14 3:11 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 19/10/2014 11:04 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/19/14 2:49 PM, Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 03:42 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/19/14 11:17 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 08:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and tablets
on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for desktop
PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be the same.

I think this is exactly what you have with OS X and iOS. 2 different
operating systems, but visually they closer and closer with each new
version, and better integration.

It's exactly what I have with Windows 7 and Android. I use my computer
as a computer and my phone as a phone. This has never been a problem
before, so why is it suddenly a problem now?

The difference may be in the amount of difficulty in sharing data
between the two OSes. Plus what your goal is with everything.

In the Apple world, if you want to enter something into the app on the
computer, and have it show up on the family's iPhone, it's a piece of
cake. For example, the wife is grocery shopping, and the list is on the
phone and the computer. You're at home, remember a couple items that
need to be added to the list. Type them in on the computer, and in a
few seconds, the list on the phone is updated.

Is that possible on what you have?



It is in Linux.

I wondered about that in Linux. But I was more curious if you could do
it between the Win7 and Android pieces.




You can. It's possible to share e-mail, contact lists, tasks, photos,
notes, calendars, favourites/bookmarks - more or less anything. My
system syncs them between two Windows 7 desktops, a Windows 7 laptop
(the laptop used to have Linux Mint, and I could have done it with that
too) and two Android phones. I don't think I paid for any software to do
it - all free. All that without paying through the nose for over-priced
Apple kit too.

There's no way to know the answer to this, but I wonder if you and
others would be doing all that syncing if it wasn't for Apple doing it
so well.

Follow up question, Bob, does the syncing happen in real time as I
described in another post? Or do you have to do it manually, asking for
the sync, or have it automatically scheduled to sync on a fixed
schedule, say every 15 minutes?




Looking at the phone to desktop connection - the photos, I sync via
Dropbox, so it's immediate when the phone is connected via WiFi, manual
when data connected. Files (executable, Notes, Spreadsheets, .docx files
etc. ) I usually sync manually via Dropbox, as I don't want all of them
to go. Email, Contacts, Tasks, and Calendar are instant, via Google,
whichever way I'm connected. Other e-mail accounts don't sync - they go
direct to their own servers. Bookmarks are instant via Xmarks and the
phone via Dolphin's own connection to Firefox on the desktop. Secure
log-in updates are instant via RoboForm, manual from the phone.

When turned on, the Laptop syncs (wifi or data connection) to phone and
desktop via Google for e-mail, contacts, tasks, and Calendar - but other
e-mail accounts connect direct via their host servers. Xmarks and
Roboform sync their data real time too.

I haven't added Teamviewer to the phone yet, but I can, of course move
data from desktop to desktop and desktops to laptop via that. Windows
Synctoy moves photos and other things between desktops only, and manually.

That about covers it - I've probably forgotten a few bits.

--
Bob Tetbury, Gloucestershire, UK

Gynaecologist - a man who can redecorate his hallway through the letterbox.

On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 13:42:41 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

It's exactly what I have with Windows 7 and Android. I use my computer
as a computer and my phone as a phone. This has never been a problem
before, so why is it suddenly a problem now?

The difference may be in the amount of difficulty in sharing data
between the two OSes. Plus what your goal is with everything.

Why should it be necessary to share data between a computer and a
phone? I can copy the photos I've taken with the phone's camera into
the computer, and I can copy documents from the computer to the phone
if I think I might need them, using nothing more than a mini USB cable
and Windows Explorer. It's neat that I can keep things like PDFs of
all the local bus and train timetables in a gadget I carry in my
pocket, but it wouldn't distress me if I couldn't. I know I could live
without everything computers and mobile phones can do because for
about the first five decades of my life, I did.

In the Apple world, if you want to enter something into the app on the
computer, and have it show up on the family's iPhone, it's a piece of
cake.

Ah yes, I've heard about the Apple world, where all your personal
information is stored on somebody else's server goodness knows where,
and is accessible to goodness knows whom. At least I'm not a
narcissistic female celebrity with a penchant for taking nude
"selfies", so there might be little risk of anyone else being
interested in my stuff, but I'd still prefer to keep it to myself.

For example, the wife is grocery shopping, and the list is on the
phone and the computer. You're at home, remember a couple items that
need to be added to the list. Type them in on the computer, and in a
few seconds, the list on the phone is updated.

Is that possible on what you have?

Yes, I've frequently been out shopping for somebody else when they've
remembered extra items. They just type them into a text, and in a few
seconds it appears on my phone. The only thing I can think of that
would improve on being able to do this is not being able to do it,
because it would enable me to get home sooner having spent less money.
In the olden days before mobile phones, we managed shopping lists with
the aid of an almost forgotten piece of technology called pencil and
paper. It may surprise you, but somehow we got by.

Rod.

On 10/20/2014 6:46 AM, Caver1 wrote:
On 10/20/2014 06:52 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 05:14 PM, Neil wrote:
On 10/19/2014 4:47 PM, Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 03:33 PM, Neil wrote:
[...]
I consider "actual/real work" that for which one is being
compensated. Such work has been done on tablets for decades and on
phones at least since the Blackberry.


All four of my children have smartphones and tablets which they use
constantly. When they switch to work their switch to their desktops
or laptops. At work they all use desktops and not the metro side.
The same for others that I know.

So... are you trying to claim that people *don't* use tablets and
smart phones for business and "actual work"? If not, please tell
me... what was the point of your comment?


The point is that desktops/laptops are not going away. Even the
younger generation that likes mobile sees the benefits of nonmobile
for work.

Did someone suggest that desktops are going away, or is that another
straw
man argument being started? Just in case, mainframes aren't going away,
either, and FWIW, they're unlikely to have a Metro UI in the near term.
8-D


Seems to me it was suggested here in more than one place that the mobile
side was the future and that desktop users were a dying breed.

Not by me. I've suggested is that the integration of the "mobile side"
with the "desktop side" is the way of the future. There will always be
uses for other hardware formats, whether it be self-driving cars,
drones, cloud servers and so on.

--
best regards,

Neil

On 10/20/14 7:21 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 20/10/2014 1:32 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/20/14 3:11 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 19/10/2014 11:04 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/19/14 2:49 PM, Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 03:42 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/19/14 11:17 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 08:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and tablets
on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for desktop
PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be the same.

I think this is exactly what you have with OS X and iOS. 2 different
operating systems, but visually they closer and closer with each new
version, and better integration.

It's exactly what I have with Windows 7 and Android. I use my computer
as a computer and my phone as a phone. This has never been a problem
before, so why is it suddenly a problem now?

The difference may be in the amount of difficulty in sharing data
between the two OSes. Plus what your goal is with everything.

In the Apple world, if you want to enter something into the app on the
computer, and have it show up on the family's iPhone, it's a piece of
cake. For example, the wife is grocery shopping, and the list is on the
phone and the computer. You're at home, remember a couple items that
need to be added to the list. Type them in on the computer, and in a
few seconds, the list on the phone is updated.

Is that possible on what you have?



It is in Linux.

I wondered about that in Linux. But I was more curious if you could do
it between the Win7 and Android pieces.




You can. It's possible to share e-mail, contact lists, tasks, photos,
notes, calendars, favourites/bookmarks - more or less anything. My
system syncs them between two Windows 7 desktops, a Windows 7 laptop
(the laptop used to have Linux Mint, and I could have done it with that
too) and two Android phones. I don't think I paid for any software to do
it - all free. All that without paying through the nose for over-priced
Apple kit too.

There's no way to know the answer to this, but I wonder if you and
others would be doing all that syncing if it wasn't for Apple doing it
so well.

Follow up question, Bob, does the syncing happen in real time as I
described in another post? Or do you have to do it manually, asking for
the sync, or have it automatically scheduled to sync on a fixed
schedule, say every 15 minutes?




Looking at the phone to desktop connection - the photos, I sync via
Dropbox, so it's immediate when the phone is connected via WiFi, manual
when data connected. Files (executable, Notes, Spreadsheets, .docx files
etc. ) I usually sync manually via Dropbox, as I don't want all of them
to go. Email, Contacts, Tasks, and Calendar are instant, via Google,
whichever way I'm connected. Other e-mail accounts don't sync - they go
direct to their own servers. Bookmarks are instant via Xmarks and the
phone via Dolphin's own connection to Firefox on the desktop. Secure
log-in updates are instant via RoboForm, manual from the phone.

When turned on, the Laptop syncs (wifi or data connection) to phone and
desktop via Google for e-mail, contacts, tasks, and Calendar - but other
e-mail accounts connect direct via their host servers. Xmarks and
Roboform sync their data real time too.

I haven't added Teamviewer to the phone yet, but I can, of course move
data from desktop to desktop and desktops to laptop via that. Windows
Synctoy moves photos and other things between desktops only, and manually.

That about covers it - I've probably forgotten a few bits.

Thanks, Bob. That's a little more tedious than Apple's way, but more or
less duplicates the end result.

I've got Dropbox and Teamviewer, but I don't use them in that manner.
All my stuff is networked here, and the phone is too old (I suspect) to
even bother with syncing anything. I don't use it as anything but a
phone, anyway.

Dropbox I use to transfer large files to others, such as photos. And
Teamviewer for helping others, not file transfer. I do need to figure
out the file transfer, chat, and a couple other niceties of Teamviewer,
though.


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 25.0
Thunderbird 24.6.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:32:23 -0400, Wolf K
wrote:

It's exactly what I have with Windows 7 and Android. I use my computer
as a computer and my phone as a phone. This has never been a problem
before, so why is it suddenly a problem now?

Fascinating! I haven't seen any apps for my Android that run on any of my
Windows machines. What did you find that does?

None at all, but why would I need any? My phone is not required to run
Windows apps, because it functions perfectly well as a phone (and a
few other things) without them, and my computer is not required to
function as a phone, because it's not a phone, it's a computer.

Rod.

You don't Skype?

Yes. I can do that on either the phone or any of my computers, Windows
or Linux. Computers are preferable because holding the phone up for
the duration of a Skype call makes my arm tired, but all the devices
are capable of it. What point were you trying to make?

Rod.

On 10/20/2014 8:50 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 05:55:05 -0500, "Neil Gould"
wrote:
Roderick Stewart wrote:

It's exactly what I have with Windows 7 and Android. I use my computer
as a computer and my phone as a phone. This has never been a problem
before, so why is it suddenly a problem now?

Fascinating! I haven't seen any apps for my Android that run on any of my
Windows machines. What did you find that does?

None at all,

Then, what did you mean by "It's exactly what I have with Windows 7 and
Android", as a response to having an OS that looks and works in a
similar way on multiple devices (the example was MacOS/iOS)? Android OS
and Windows 7 are quite different in every way.

but why would I need any?

*You* may not need any, but that doesn't disqualify those who do find it
useful to have the same apps synced on all their devices.

--
best regards,

Neil

On 10/20/2014 4:51 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 19/10/2014 10:29 PM, Neil wrote:
On 10/19/2014 11:20 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 19/10/2014 1:06 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
That is the biggest drawback to Windows 8.1. Once you open a Metro
program in in nearly impossible to close that program. YES MS brought
the Upper X to close the Window, but that does not close the program.
Working with a mouse exclusively the only option is to kill it in the
Task Manager. If you hit the Windows Key on the key board it will get
you out of most Metro programs.


Doesn't ALT-F4 close them?

The concept of "closed" for Metro apps is not the same as it is for
Desktop apps.

Like Android and iOS, Metro apps are "stopped" by the user, meaning that
they don't consume CPU time and other resources, but they're still in
memory until that memory is needed by some other app, and that's managed
by the system, not the user. There are reasons why some people think
this is a good thing, but on that matter I'm an agnostic until it
creates some problem, and that will largely depend on how well
"sandboxed" they are. IOW, the Metro/Modern UI is not just another
instance of the desktop, so it isn't reasonable to think it should
function as though it is.


Yes, I realise that they are intended not to be shut down, in the same
way that the "off" button is hidden to prevent people from closing
Windows 8 down completely, but I don't like it that way. I use such a
system, Android, on my phone for which it is quite suitable, and better
than Windows too. It (and its apps) would be useless on a serious
computer though. I know that Metro is not another desktop - my
contention is that Windows *should* have a usable desktop, and
preferably in a separate version that does not have Metro or anything
like it included at all.

Windows *does* hae a usable desktop, but I don't see any advantage in
excluding Metro/Modern since one can easily configure their computer to
disregard that UI if they really want to.

As for Android being better than Windows, I think this is largely a
matter of time, and considering how often my Android apps crash, while
my Metro/Modern apps have *never* crashed, I'd have a hard time calling
Android "better" in that regard.

--
best regards,

Neil

On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 13:53:15 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

[...]
Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and tablets
on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for desktop
PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be the same.
[...]

Agreed, but they should look and function the same, allowing for
differences such as screen size/orientation, touch, etc.

Why?!! Who says so? What on earth is wrong with different gadgets
looking like what they are and behaving differently because they are
different? The controls on my TV don't look like the ones on my
washing machine, and none of them look like the controls on the
microwave, but it's never been a problem, and I can't imagine how any
attempt to harmonise them would improve anything.

If all the Window's systems look the same, and Apple systems look the
same, it's simply easier to use. Everything looks and works the same,
and you don't have to look for the same things in different places. You
don't have to have the same OSes everywhere. And a Mac doesn't have to
look like Windows.

All my Windows systems do look the same. They're all Windows 7. My
phone system looks like Android. I don't have a problem with this.

I've never wanted a Mac because I see no point in spending three times
as much for a computer that wouldn't enable me to do anything I can't
do already. From what I've seen of their operating systems, they're no
more different from Windows than Linux, so they shouldn't be too
difficult to get used to, but why bother? At least Linux is free.

Rod.

On 10/20/14 7:28 AM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2014-10-20 6:55 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 08:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:
[...]
I think this is exactly what you have with OS X and iOS. 2 different
operating systems, but visually they closer and closer with each new
version, and better integration.

It's exactly what I have with Windows 7 and Android. I use my computer
as a computer and my phone as a phone. This has never been a problem
before, so why is it suddenly a problem now?

Fascinating! I haven't seen any apps for my Android that run on any of my
Windows machines. What did you find that does?

Utterly irrelevant comment. You missed "... visually they [are] closer
and closer..." Ken is talking about what the user sees. Which isn't the OS.

Exactly, Wolf, thank you.

OS X has its version of the Metro interface, but it's not forced on you
as a default. It's called the Launchpad, and it's an app/program you
start like any other program on the Mac. But you get a screen that
looks and seems to act like the screen on an iPad, and I presume the
iPhone. I have neither, so I don't know for sure.

Since you use your phone as a phone, you likely haven't noticed that
most apps are available for Android, Blackberry, and iOS. The developers
don't want to limit themselves to one slice of the market. You may also
not have noticed that e-mail, browsing, and photo-viewing are "apps" in
phone speak. As long as these apps work as desired, the user doesn't
care squat what the underlying OS is up to.

Have a good day,



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 25.0
Thunderbird 24.6.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 06:03:56 -0500, "Neil Gould"
wrote:

Syncing is not only between different devices it can also be between
different computers. ie home and work, laptop on the road and desktop
at home.....

That is exactly the kind of syncing I've been referring to all along, where
a desktop is one of the devices. Since I have NOT been talking about
importing/exporting "save as" data, which is only marginally useful, one
requirement would be that *the same apps* can be run on all of them.

Where necessary I can already use some apps on all devices, but some
are suitable for big screens and quite unsuitable for small ones, and
vice versa. What's the point of running a big screen app on a phone if
you can't properly control it because there isn't a keyboard or mouse,
and reading text for any length of time on its piddly little screen
hurts your eyes?

Some combinations of apps and devices are simply not needed. I don't
need a phone dialer on my desktop, laptop or media centre, I don't
need a wordprocessor on my phone or my media centre, and I only use
internet radio software on the media centre because the others aren't
connected to the hi-fi. Broadly speaking, I use computers as computers
and phones as phones.

Rod.