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  #1  
Old March 4th 18, 02:07 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Martin Edwards
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 181
Default Defrag

I have defrag on my desktop because I originally had W7, but it no
longer has drive C: on the menu, only drive Z:, which does not get
fragged, and something else I do not understand. Is there anything I
can do about this?
--
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must
painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman
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  #2  
Old March 4th 18, 02:11 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Andy Burns[_6_]
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Posts: 1,318
Default Defrag

Martin Edwards wrote:

only drive Z:

Have you replaced the HD with an SSD?
  #3  
Old March 5th 18, 08:29 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Martin Edwards
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 181
Default Defrag

On 3/4/2018 1:11 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
Martin Edwards wrote:

only drive Z:

Have you replaced the HD with an SSD?


No.

--
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must
painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman
  #4  
Old March 5th 18, 09:01 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Defrag

Martin Edwards wrote:
I have defrag on my desktop because I originally had W7, but it no
longer has drive C: on the menu, only drive Z:, which does not get
fragged, and something else I do not understand. Is there anything I
can do about this?


Right-click the window thing (Start) in the lower left corner.

That should give the right-click menu.

In there is "Disk Management".

When you run it, it looks like this.

https://s10.postimg.org/ufmg4nxcp/disk_management.gif

(Picture was taken with snippingtool.exe .

Picture was uploaded to https://postimage.org/index.php?um=flash

Notice how the OS partition has all the "badges of honor"
in my picture. Where are all the badges of honor in your
picture ? Do your drive letters make sense ?

*******

I'm having trouble with the Windows 10 Insider edition.

It is installed on a HDD, yet when I go to the Optimize window
to try to defragment, all the options offered say "TRIM", as if
the any devices are SSDs. This is wrong. And I can't fix it. Attempts
to defragment (even using the command line) cause the command
to return immediately with no work done.

If I run JKDefrag, the disk is corrupted later. In other words,
be careful what you wish for. If you see symptoms similar to this,
back up the drive to external storage, before using a third-party
defragmenter. I think the symptoms indicate the problem is at
the OS level, with the third-party defragmenter being "tricked"
into making things worse. I was able to repair the damage...
purely by luck.

The Windows 10 Release version is not doing that. But given
the problem with the Insider, and other evidence I could see
in Google, this problem is not an isolated incident. And
so far, no amount of fiddling with it, is making it ready
to defragment. It doesn't seem to be a disk health issue,
just some snit the software is in.

One thread suggested it was a side effect of the Windows Performance
tool benchmarking the drive, and deciding it was fast enough to be
an SSD. And therefore, defrag should not be offered. This is bull****.
I tried running the Performance thing manually, and there was no change
in anything really. So that doesn't seem to be my root cause. And
any idiot would not do SSD detection that way anyway - the SMART table
has sufficient differences to tell you're on an SSD. Benching is not
needed.

Paul
  #5  
Old March 6th 18, 02:29 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Tim[_10_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 249
Default Defrag

Paul wrote in news
Martin Edwards wrote:
I have defrag on my desktop because I originally had W7, but it no
longer has drive C: on the menu, only drive Z:, which does not get
fragged, and something else I do not understand. Is there anything I
can do about this?


Right-click the window thing (Start) in the lower left corner.

That should give the right-click menu.

In there is "Disk Management".

When you run it, it looks like this.

https://s10.postimg.org/ufmg4nxcp/disk_management.gif

(Picture was taken with snippingtool.exe .

Picture was uploaded to https://postimage.org/index.php?um=flash

Notice how the OS partition has all the "badges of honor"
in my picture. Where are all the badges of honor in your
picture ? Do your drive letters make sense ?

*******

I'm having trouble with the Windows 10 Insider edition.

It is installed on a HDD, yet when I go to the Optimize window
to try to defragment, all the options offered say "TRIM", as if
the any devices are SSDs. This is wrong. And I can't fix it. Attempts
to defragment (even using the command line) cause the command
to return immediately with no work done.

If I run JKDefrag, the disk is corrupted later. In other words,
be careful what you wish for. If you see symptoms similar to this,
back up the drive to external storage, before using a third-party
defragmenter. I think the symptoms indicate the problem is at
the OS level, with the third-party defragmenter being "tricked"
into making things worse. I was able to repair the damage...
purely by luck.

The Windows 10 Release version is not doing that. But given
the problem with the Insider, and other evidence I could see
in Google, this problem is not an isolated incident. And
so far, no amount of fiddling with it, is making it ready
to defragment. It doesn't seem to be a disk health issue,
just some snit the software is in.

One thread suggested it was a side effect of the Windows Performance
tool benchmarking the drive, and deciding it was fast enough to be
an SSD. And therefore, defrag should not be offered. This is bull****.
I tried running the Performance thing manually, and there was no change
in anything really. So that doesn't seem to be my root cause. And
any idiot would not do SSD detection that way anyway - the SMART table
has sufficient differences to tell you're on an SSD. Benching is not
needed.

Paul


You are knowledgeable enough to know that there are a lot of REAL idiots
out there writing software, even the ones who are supposed to know better
have been know to have Id 10 t moments.
  #6  
Old March 6th 18, 03:56 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Defrag

KenW wrote:
On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 01:29:59 GMT, Tim wrote:

Paul wrote in news
Martin Edwards wrote:
I have defrag on my desktop because I originally had W7, but it no
longer has drive C: on the menu, only drive Z:, which does not get
fragged, and something else I do not understand. Is there anything I
can do about this?
Right-click the window thing (Start) in the lower left corner.

That should give the right-click menu.

In there is "Disk Management".

When you run it, it looks like this.

https://s10.postimg.org/ufmg4nxcp/disk_management.gif

(Picture was taken with snippingtool.exe .

Picture was uploaded to https://postimage.org/index.php?um=flash

Notice how the OS partition has all the "badges of honor"
in my picture. Where are all the badges of honor in your
picture ? Do your drive letters make sense ?

*******

I'm having trouble with the Windows 10 Insider edition.

It is installed on a HDD, yet when I go to the Optimize window
to try to defragment, all the options offered say "TRIM", as if
the any devices are SSDs. This is wrong. And I can't fix it. Attempts
to defragment (even using the command line) cause the command
to return immediately with no work done.

If I run JKDefrag, the disk is corrupted later. In other words,
be careful what you wish for. If you see symptoms similar to this,
back up the drive to external storage, before using a third-party
defragmenter. I think the symptoms indicate the problem is at
the OS level, with the third-party defragmenter being "tricked"
into making things worse. I was able to repair the damage...
purely by luck.

The Windows 10 Release version is not doing that. But given
the problem with the Insider, and other evidence I could see
in Google, this problem is not an isolated incident. And
so far, no amount of fiddling with it, is making it ready
to defragment. It doesn't seem to be a disk health issue,
just some snit the software is in.

One thread suggested it was a side effect of the Windows Performance
tool benchmarking the drive, and deciding it was fast enough to be
an SSD. And therefore, defrag should not be offered. This is bull****.
I tried running the Performance thing manually, and there was no change
in anything really. So that doesn't seem to be my root cause. And
any idiot would not do SSD detection that way anyway - the SMART table
has sufficient differences to tell you're on an SSD. Benching is not
needed.

Paul

You are knowledgeable enough to know that there are a lot of REAL idiots
out there writing software, even the ones who are supposed to know better
have been know to have Id 10 t moments.


Windows 10 with an ssd does a trim and not a old style defrag.


KenW


What worries me, is it looks like someone at Microsoft is
"fooling around" with NTFS. This doesn't inspire confidence.
On your rolling release, you can do many things, make
new Emojis, make a new app for Facebook... but you
don't go around "sawing off the branch you're standing on".
This doesn't seem... prudent, whatever is going on in this case.
I already see $MFTMIRR is malformed by Windows 10. What's next ?

The evidence I'm seeing, seems to suggest in my case, the
OS knows something is wrong, and that's why it's turned off
defrag. But I can't spot what the issue is. And the MFTMIRR
problem isn't fixing itself either. (MFTMIRR has been broken
for longer than defrag, so that's not the blocker.) CHKDSK
isn't armed to detect or fix what is going on it seems. I
don't know what else to try, because of the limitations
of any other NTFS file system drivers. None of them are
particularly "official" and were created by reverse engineering.

If someone else made a CHKDSK, maybe there'd be a way to get
indirect evidence.

Paul
  #7  
Old March 6th 18, 07:45 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Tim[_10_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 249
Default Defrag


Windows 10 with an ssd does a trim and not a old style defrag.


KenW

And Windows 10 also runs a 'good enough' defrag process in the background,
so that third party defrag programs aren't needed. I tried running
Defragler a couple times, but it made no noticable difference. It cleaned
up a few of the more noticable fragmented files, but left a lot as well.

And yes, SSDs don't need to be defragmented. Trim is defragmenting, it is
preparing currently unused sectors to be used again.
  #8  
Old March 6th 18, 08:12 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Defrag

Tim wrote:
Windows 10 with an ssd does a trim and not a old style defrag.


KenW

And Windows 10 also runs a 'good enough' defrag process in the background,
so that third party defrag programs aren't needed. I tried running
Defragler a couple times, but it made no noticable difference. It cleaned
up a few of the more noticable fragmented files, but left a lot as well.

And yes, SSDs don't need to be defragmented. Trim is defragmenting, it is
preparing currently unused sectors to be used again.


I'm curious. Is your Windows 10 still able to defragment ?

None of mine are capable now. Even the Win10 in the VM has
stopped offering a defrag option. So that's four busted
OSes, two insider Oses, a Release OS, and a Release OS inside
a VM.

Paul
  #9  
Old March 6th 18, 08:47 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Martin Edwards
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 181
Default Defrag

On 3/6/2018 1:29 AM, Tim wrote:
Notice how the OS partition has all the "badges of honor"
in my picture. Where are all the badges of honor in your
picture ? Do your drive letters make sense ?


Sorry, I haven't a clue. Is this group only for techeads, or can
someone help me?

--
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must
painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman
  #10  
Old March 6th 18, 08:49 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Martin Edwards
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 181
Default Defrag

On 3/6/2018 1:47 AM, KenW wrote:
On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 01:29:59 GMT, Tim wrote:

Paul wrote in news
Martin Edwards wrote:
I have defrag on my desktop because I originally had W7, but it no
longer has drive C: on the menu, only drive Z:, which does not get
fragged, and something else I do not understand. Is there anything I
can do about this?

Right-click the window thing (Start) in the lower left corner.

That should give the right-click menu.

In there is "Disk Management".

When you run it, it looks like this.

https://s10.postimg.org/ufmg4nxcp/disk_management.gif

(Picture was taken with snippingtool.exe .

Picture was uploaded to https://postimage.org/index.php?um=flash

Notice how the OS partition has all the "badges of honor"
in my picture. Where are all the badges of honor in your
picture ? Do your drive letters make sense ?

*******

I'm having trouble with the Windows 10 Insider edition.

It is installed on a HDD, yet when I go to the Optimize window
to try to defragment, all the options offered say "TRIM", as if
the any devices are SSDs. This is wrong. And I can't fix it. Attempts
to defragment (even using the command line) cause the command
to return immediately with no work done.

If I run JKDefrag, the disk is corrupted later. In other words,
be careful what you wish for. If you see symptoms similar to this,
back up the drive to external storage, before using a third-party
defragmenter. I think the symptoms indicate the problem is at
the OS level, with the third-party defragmenter being "tricked"
into making things worse. I was able to repair the damage...
purely by luck.

The Windows 10 Release version is not doing that. But given
the problem with the Insider, and other evidence I could see
in Google, this problem is not an isolated incident. And
so far, no amount of fiddling with it, is making it ready
to defragment. It doesn't seem to be a disk health issue,
just some snit the software is in.

One thread suggested it was a side effect of the Windows Performance
tool benchmarking the drive, and deciding it was fast enough to be
an SSD. And therefore, defrag should not be offered. This is bull****.
I tried running the Performance thing manually, and there was no change
in anything really. So that doesn't seem to be my root cause. And
any idiot would not do SSD detection that way anyway - the SMART table
has sufficient differences to tell you're on an SSD. Benching is not
needed.

Paul


You are knowledgeable enough to know that there are a lot of REAL idiots
out there writing software, even the ones who are supposed to know better
have been know to have Id 10 t moments.


Windows 10 with an ssd does a trim and not a old style defrag.


KenW

Can I take it then that it is doing some kind of defrag anyway? If so,
many thanks for your reply.

--
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must
painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman
  #11  
Old March 6th 18, 08:50 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Martin Edwards
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 181
Default Defrag

On 3/6/2018 6:45 AM, Tim wrote:

Windows 10 with an ssd does a trim and not a old style defrag.


KenW

And Windows 10 also runs a 'good enough' defrag process in the background,
so that third party defrag programs aren't needed. I tried running
Defragler a couple times, but it made no noticable difference. It cleaned
up a few of the more noticable fragmented files, but left a lot as well.

And yes, SSDs don't need to be defragmented. Trim is defragmenting, it is
preparing currently unused sectors to be used again.

Phew! Thanks, I think I understood that.

--
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must
painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman
  #12  
Old March 6th 18, 08:51 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Martin Edwards
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 181
Default Defrag

On 3/6/2018 7:12 AM, Paul wrote:
Tim wrote:
Windows 10 with an ssd does a trim and not a old style defrag.


KenW

And Windows 10 also runs a 'good enough' defrag process in the
background, so that third party defrag programs aren't needed. I tried
running Defragler a couple times, but it made no noticable difference.
It cleaned up a few of the more noticable fragmented files, but left a
lot as well.

And yes, SSDs don't need to be defragmented. Trim is defragmenting, it
is preparing currently unused sectors to be used again.


I'm curious. Is your Windows 10 still able to defragment ?

None of mine are capable now. Even the Win10 in the VM has
stopped offering a defrag option. So that's four busted
OSes, two insider Oses, a Release OS, and a Release OS inside
a VM.

Paul


Good to know I am not alone. The computer is running okay for the time
being.

--
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must
painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman
  #13  
Old March 6th 18, 08:53 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Andy Burns[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default Defrag

Martin Edwards wrote:

Is this group only for techeads, or can someone help me?


Maybe a picture would paint 1,000 words here of what you think is wrong,
can you upload a screen grab to a a sharing site?

  #14  
Old March 6th 18, 09:38 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Defrag

Martin Edwards wrote:
On 3/6/2018 1:29 AM, Tim wrote:
Notice how the OS partition has all the "badges of honor"
in my picture. Where are all the badges of honor in your
picture ? Do your drive letters make sense ?


Sorry, I haven't a clue. Is this group only for techeads, or can
someone help me?


Now Marty, why do you think I provided this info ?

When you run it, it looks like this.

https://s10.postimg.org/ufmg4nxcp/disk_management.gif

(Picture was taken with snippingtool.exe .

Picture was uploaded to https://postimage.org/index.php?um=flash ===

===
===

HINT. HINT. HINT.

With no account whatsoever, you can upload a screenshot too,
to PostImage. That means you don't have to register, don't
give an email address or anything. Just upload and done.

Test the URL you copy from the PostImage page, in a browser
before you post it. I don't want to see a (too-small)
Thumbnail link on your first try :-/ If you verify your
link works, before posting, things will go a lot smoother.

The Snippingtool.exe defaults to taking a picture of
a Window. (Look in the Mode menu.) You start Disk Management
(right-click the icon in the lower-left corner of your screen
and there it is). Then, adjust the size of the Disk Management
window so the text is a bit readable. Then use SnippingTool.exe to
take a picture of the window. You "arm" Snippingtool, then
the screen highlights the window with some artificial lighting,
then click on the window frame. Save the picture in your
Downloads folder, so that when using the Browser to
upload to postimage site, you'll be able to find the
..PNG file to be uploaded.

A picture smaller than 1024x768 is desirable, because Postimg
will resize uploaded images until they fit that dimension (and
the resize can make your resulting image fuzzy). That means
if you have a 1920x1080 screen on your computer, you could
benefit by not making Disk Management take up the entire screen
before you take a picture of it.

It doesn't look like Windows 10 has a *decent* photo editor,
so I'm not going to torture you with a request to do any edits.
And the tool I use for edits (GIMP) doesn't have a very nice
learning curve either. It does have a huge manual, but it's
a manual that won't help particularly.

After the picture is uploaded, you see a complicated box full of
URLs like this one.

https://s10.postimg.org/ufmg4nxcp/disk_management.gif

Your objective is to select one of those suitable for
forum usage, making sure the link has the right format,
and *verify* the link in your browser in a separate window.
Once you know the link is good, you can stick the link in a posting.
And then maybe we can figure out what's going on.

Paul
  #15  
Old March 6th 18, 02:48 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Keith Nuttle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,844
Default Defrag

On 3/6/2018 2:50 AM, Martin Edwards wrote:
And yes, SSDs don't need to be defragmented. Trim is defragmenting, it is
preparing currently unused sectors to be used again.

For my information and understanding, please explain why.

Is it the dynamic nature of the SSD formate, ie the information is
constantly changing to fill the gaps??



--
2018: The year we learn to play the great game of Euchre
 




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