Win7 support:

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 2:30:03 AM UTC-7, Robert in CA wrote:
I hit F8 at startup but it didn't go into Bios
but offered F5 as a diagnostics so I did that
instead and it went into a Pre-boot system
assessment. I elected to run the memory tests
to see if it finds anything.

https://postimg.cc/tscQ5CMw

https://postimg.cc/mtDTNqrc

https://postimg.cc/0Mw8mJ5V

Robert

Still the F1 problem, still won't read CD's,
can't do a restore and will not recognize
a second HD and give the options along with
Win 7 at startup. Interestingly, I gave the
Macrioum option but not the Win10 HD which
it should have been there with Win 7. They
sure make this difficult.

Robert

Robert in CA wrote:
On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 2:30:03 AM UTC-7, Robert in CA wrote:
I hit F8 at startup but it didn't go into Bios
but offered F5 as a diagnostics so I did that
instead and it went into a Pre-boot system
assessment. I elected to run the memory tests
to see if it finds anything.

https://postimg.cc/tscQ5CMw

https://postimg.cc/mtDTNqrc

https://postimg.cc/0Mw8mJ5V

Robert

Still the F1 problem, still won't read CD's,
can't do a restore and will not recognize
a second HD and give the options along with
Win 7 at startup. Interestingly, I gave the
Macrioum option but not the Win10 HD which
it should have been there with Win 7. They
sure make this difficult.

Robert

Two things I noticed so far.

1) When you were attempting to do a Macrium restore,
the screen showed a 1ER164 backup going to a 1CH164
drive, which looks like an attempt to overwrite the
backup drive!

In the restore choices, you need both disks to show
up, so that the backup drive (which you're apparently
booted from), can restore over the primary drive.

This looks like trouble to me... Seeing that prompt
means you're trying to do something naughty.

https://postimg.cc/DmZ0tyhx

2) The RAID BIOS code module is showing in the BIOS.

https://postimg.cc/ZCjCgBBs

You *must* maintain consistent disk settings between
runs, because the drivers have a limited range of
things they support.

The question would be, whether that screen was
showing previously, before you started adjusting
BIOS settings or not.

Chipset: Intel Q45 Express (Northbridge) (AMT management engine enabled)
Chipset: with ICH10DO Southbridge

One thing I could see from an owner having boot
problems was:

"When I went to check the machine, the BIOS settings
were up and I found that the disk operation had been
changed from "RAID On" to "RAID Autodetect /ATA."
There is no RAID in this PC, but that is what the
disk operation was set to"

ICH10 Digital Office (Southbridge)
AHCI Yes
RAID 0/1/5/10 Yes

ICH10DO ------------
6port ------------
------------
------------

----------------- ESATA, to the right of DisplayPort conn.

------------ SATA_TO_IDE_CHIP -------- IDE 40 pin connector

*******

This is the kind of driver the OS uses when
in either AHCI or RAID mode. The reason for this
design is for "RAID Migration" purposes. A person
can install Windows in AHCI mode, flip to RAID at
the BIOS level, the disk then shows up as a single
disk JBOD (Justa Bunch Of Disks). When the user
enters the RAID BIOS and defines an "array of two disks",
in the case of a RAID Mirror, the original drive can
be automatically copied to a second disk as part of
the operation of a RAID Mirror.

https://content.spiceworksstatic.com...ge/Capture.PNG

If the RAID was running when the disk was installed,
it could have RAID metadata that says each drive is
just a JBOD disk and not part of an array.

The evidence is, that the BIOS is "trigger happy". It
flips to RAID mode automatically when you modify BIOS
settings. In this case, it's possible the addition
of the second hard drive, got the BIOS all excited
that "we're making a RAID 1 Mirror... yeah!!!". And
so it flipped to RAID mode.

It's possible that it is doing RAID sensing, and
this is preventing the second disk from being
detected (somehow). I would have thought the default
for unaccompanied disks, is for them all to show up
in JBOD mode, and not make a nuisance of themselves.

*******

Now, this is going to cause "panic" in your computer room,
but only in the sense of disks not booting.

MS_IDE driver PCI or I/O space "IDE mode"

AHCI/RAID driver AHCI mode for each SATA port

AHCI/RAID driver RAID mode for each SATA port

It's possible your Windows 7 install went "Not Genuine"
because of the transition from AHCI to RAID. Even though
the disk is a JBOD disk and there is no other indication
at all, that RAID is involved.

It's possible your Win7 and Win10 installs were done in
different modes, such that one of the two will not boot
depending on the BIOS setting. Of course, we want the
Win7 disk to boot right now, so returning the settings
to a "Win7 works" is the best state.

This stuff isn't that complicated, but it's a PITA to
deal with. And it's not exactly easy to "review" what
has happened, either.

Some computers have "BIOS profile memory", which means
you "snapshot" the BIOS settings before messing around,
and if you get in trouble, you "reload the snapshot". My
Test Machine has this (I use it all the time), my Typing
Machine doesn't have it. On the Test Machine, it
restores my RAM settings so the RAM works for me. The
Optiplex 780 is of an era where keeping Profiles is not
an option.

*******

Summary:

1) You may end up in a situation where one or more
disks won't boot. Don't panic and remain calm.

2) Note down the settings, or take pictures of the

a) SATA tick boxes
b) Choice of IDE, AHCI, RAID somewhere in the BIOS
c) Boot order

3) What you're going to do, is try to put the settings
back so that the Win7 drive boots properly.

As well as "watching the table manners of the BIOS".

When you change a SATA tick box (a), does the
stupid (b) choice "change itself" ? Does it insist
on changing to RAID, when it should not do that ?

It seems the defaults on the 780, include enabling
RAID, as well as turning on two SATA ports (of four).

The remaining ports on the 780, one becomes an ESATA
port on the I/O connector. The other port appears
to go through a SATA-to-IDE chip and becomes a single
disk on the IDE 40 pin connector.

The Southbridge has six SATA ports, and could support
SATA arrays on all ports, and more than one array. But
this is all moot when just trying to get a single
disk to boot in some other mode... Don't lose hope!
There aren't that many permutations and combinations.

Paul

You may not think its complicated but I'm just trying
to keep up and understand what your talking about.

As far as the restore I was following your directions
you gave awhile back but honestly Macrium makes this
hard to do (I was looking at the drive letter and the
Mrimg backup was drive D as far I could see) How am
I suppose to tell the difference between the drives
especially as they change letters in Macrium? They
look the same to me. Its so easy to mess up in Macrium.

I don't know what you mean by maintaining consistent
disk settings between runs. The F1 screen did not show
up before.

In summary:

The 780 is working again with Win 7 desktop, but it doesn't
recognize the CD player and the F1 problem.

Here's the boot sequence (f2) and Bios (F8) and F12

https://postimg.cc/CdZSFb81

https://postimg.cc/0zKwDzh2

https://postimg.cc/bdvd1Gtc

https://postimg.cc/k6CCwH4h

https://postimg.cc/dZT915Rw

https://postimg.cc/qhQ7KrLG

https://postimg.cc/8fVb7hZv

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96



It appears your correct and the HD is running as RAID.
So there' no way to fix this? What about switching the
boot sequence order back to the defaults?


Thoughts/suggestions,
Robert

Robert in CA wrote:
You may not think its complicated but I'm just trying
to keep up and understand what your talking about.

As far as the restore I was following your directions
you gave awhile back but honestly Macrium makes this
hard to do (I was looking at the drive letter and the
Mrimg backup was drive D as far I could see) How am
I suppose to tell the difference between the drives
especially as they change letters in Macrium? They
look the same to me. Its so easy to mess up in Macrium.

I don't know what you mean by maintaining consistent
disk settings between runs. The F1 screen did not show
up before.

In summary:

The 780 is working again with Win 7 desktop, but it doesn't
recognize the CD player and the F1 problem.

Here's the boot sequence (f2) and Bios (F8) and F12

https://postimg.cc/CdZSFb81

https://postimg.cc/0zKwDzh2

https://postimg.cc/bdvd1Gtc

https://postimg.cc/k6CCwH4h

https://postimg.cc/dZT915Rw

https://postimg.cc/qhQ7KrLG

https://postimg.cc/8fVb7hZv

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96



It appears your correct and the HD is running as RAID.
So there' no way to fix this? What about switching the
boot sequence order back to the defaults?


Thoughts/suggestions,
Robert


I suspect that both drives (the Win7 and Win10 ones)
are running the AHCI/RAID driver.

For Windows 10, I believe you can change modes by
running Safe Mode. Of course, at the current time,
you might not even have access to the WIndows 10 drive,
to make any changes to it.

Your SATA settings still have a couple ports turned off.
I presume you're doing this for a reason. Maybe 1CH164 in
this picture, is the Windows 7 drive ? The original one ?
And that number isn't the serial number either, that
is probably the firmware version the drive is running
on its controller board.

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96

In this one, you're running "RAID mode ON", which
means it's not conditional on anything. However,
the Intel RAID module in the BIOS, reads the
metadata or lack of metadata, to decide a
drive is JBOD and thus, the boot mode will
be AHCI. It's not until a user sets
the disk to a RAID mode, that RAID metadata
would be used.

Typically, when RAID is ON, and then you press
Control-I during boot (for Intel RAID), you get
to see a screen indicating the array status of
drives.

You don't really need to go there, because you've
never set up RAID on the system. And since the 780
arrived with just the one drive in it, there's
little reason for JoySystems to make a single-drive
member of a RAID array either.

RAID Autodetect / AHCI, presumably is examining the
disks for RAID metadata. But I've not heard or seen
such an option on other systems with Intel RAID capability,
which is why this option is a bit of a puzzle to me.
Who would write custom code to do this ? Intel ?
It probably wouldn't make a whole lot of difference,
depending on what driver was loaded. And in the era
the 780 was designed (likely early Win7), the
combo Intel driver was likely the intended target.

Windows 10 has iastore as well as msahci, so it
has separated drivers. And if you can convince
Windows 10 to go to Safe Mode, you can boot once in
Safe Mode, then boot into Regular Mode, and the
driver issue can be resolved (it tries a Best Match
on drivers). On previous OSes, to change driver modes,
you needed to "re-arm" driver detection with a
Registry edit. Which isn't nearly as easy to do.

I'm hoping not to have to do that! :-)

Windows 7 probably would not have booted, if the
driver was wrong. But instead, it booted and came
up Not Genuine. Since it booted, and since it
seems your backup drive is booting right now,
I'm not sure anything is "busted" while using
the settings you show in your pictures.

The single biggest limitation seems to be the
unticked SATA boxes.

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96

And when you're looking at your two drives, and
doing your "restore", the "restore" should not
be offering any option to reboot, as that implies
it's going to try and overwrite the backup drive.

To do the Win7 restore, I'd want the Win10 drive
disconnected, and the Win7 original drive as
my target, and then boot from the Win7 backup
drive that has the image on it. The Backup drive
has the running OS at the time, and it should
be able to restore over the WIn7 original which
is sitting there.

You can confirm some of the numbers by looking
at the drives when the system is powered off,
just to reinforce what you know about the
source of the backup, the destination, and that
when reviewing these in the Macrium screen,
you're moving stuff to the correct location.

Paul

In message ,
Robert in CA writes:
You may not think its complicated but I'm just trying
to keep up and understand what your talking about.

As far as the restore I was following your directions
you gave awhile back but honestly Macrium makes this
hard to do (I was looking at the drive letter and the
Mrimg backup was drive D as far I could see) How am
I suppose to tell the difference between the drives
especially as they change letters in Macrium? They
look the same to me. Its so easy to mess up in Macrium.

In Macrium (5 anyway, but I'd be surprised if later are different): the
drive/partition letters will move around, but you should be able to tell
which is which by
o model number
o partition "volume" label
o size
o what partitions are on which drive
o how full/empty the partitions are
, all of which Macrium shows.
If you have several discs the same size and model, you don't give your
partitions labels, and you tend to only have one partition per disc, it
will indeed be harder. I _think_ Macrium also shows the serial numbers
of drives, but I'm not sure it shows them everywhere.

The dance of the letters, I think you'll find occurs with Macrium's
alternatives, too.
[rest deleted as I can't comment on it]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Wisdom is the ability to cope. - the late (AB of C) Michael Ramsey,
quoted by Stephen Fry (RT 24-30 August 2013)

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 11:29:21 AM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
Robert in CA wrote:
You may not think its complicated but I'm just trying
to keep up and understand what your talking about.

As far as the restore I was following your directions
you gave awhile back but honestly Macrium makes this
hard to do (I was looking at the drive letter and the
Mrimg backup was drive D as far I could see) How am
I suppose to tell the difference between the drives
especially as they change letters in Macrium? They
look the same to me. Its so easy to mess up in Macrium.

I don't know what you mean by maintaining consistent
disk settings between runs. The F1 screen did not show
up before.

In summary:

The 780 is working again with Win 7 desktop, but it doesn't
recognize the CD player and the F1 problem.

Here's the boot sequence (f2) and Bios (F8) and F12

https://postimg.cc/CdZSFb81

https://postimg.cc/0zKwDzh2

https://postimg.cc/bdvd1Gtc

https://postimg.cc/k6CCwH4h

https://postimg.cc/dZT915Rw

https://postimg.cc/qhQ7KrLG

https://postimg.cc/8fVb7hZv

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96



It appears your correct and the HD is running as RAID.
So there' no way to fix this? What about switching the
boot sequence order back to the defaults?


Thoughts/suggestions,
Robert


I suspect that both drives (the Win7 and Win10 ones)
are running the AHCI/RAID driver.

For Windows 10, I believe you can change modes by
running Safe Mode. Of course, at the current time,
you might not even have access to the WIndows 10 drive,
to make any changes to it.

Your SATA settings still have a couple ports turned off.
I presume you're doing this for a reason. Maybe 1CH164 in
this picture, is the Windows 7 drive ? The original one ?
And that number isn't the serial number either, that
is probably the firmware version the drive is running
on its controller board.

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96

In this one, you're running "RAID mode ON", which
means it's not conditional on anything. However,
the Intel RAID module in the BIOS, reads the
metadata or lack of metadata, to decide a
drive is JBOD and thus, the boot mode will
be AHCI. It's not until a user sets
the disk to a RAID mode, that RAID metadata
would be used.

Typically, when RAID is ON, and then you press
Control-I during boot (for Intel RAID), you get
to see a screen indicating the array status of
drives.

You don't really need to go there, because you've
never set up RAID on the system. And since the 780
arrived with just the one drive in it, there's
little reason for JoySystems to make a single-drive
member of a RAID array either.

RAID Autodetect / AHCI, presumably is examining the
disks for RAID metadata. But I've not heard or seen
such an option on other systems with Intel RAID capability,
which is why this option is a bit of a puzzle to me.
Who would write custom code to do this ? Intel ?
It probably wouldn't make a whole lot of difference,
depending on what driver was loaded. And in the era
the 780 was designed (likely early Win7), the
combo Intel driver was likely the intended target.

Windows 10 has iastore as well as msahci, so it
has separated drivers. And if you can convince
Windows 10 to go to Safe Mode, you can boot once in
Safe Mode, then boot into Regular Mode, and the
driver issue can be resolved (it tries a Best Match
on drivers). On previous OSes, to change driver modes,
you needed to "re-arm" driver detection with a
Registry edit. Which isn't nearly as easy to do.

I'm hoping not to have to do that! :-)

Windows 7 probably would not have booted, if the
driver was wrong. But instead, it booted and came
up Not Genuine. Since it booted, and since it
seems your backup drive is booting right now,
I'm not sure anything is "busted" while using
the settings you show in your pictures.

The single biggest limitation seems to be the
unticked SATA boxes.

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96

And when you're looking at your two drives, and
doing your "restore", the "restore" should not
be offering any option to reboot, as that implies
it's going to try and overwrite the backup drive.

To do the Win7 restore, I'd want the Win10 drive
disconnected, and the Win7 original drive as
my target, and then boot from the Win7 backup
drive that has the image on it. The Backup drive
has the running OS at the time, and it should
be able to restore over the WIn7 original which
is sitting there.

You can confirm some of the numbers by looking
at the drives when the system is powered off,
just to reinforce what you know about the
source of the backup, the destination, and that
when reviewing these in the Macrium screen,
you're moving stuff to the correct location.

Paul





I went back and ticked all drives but still getting the F1.

I think for now I will leave Win10 on the HD
so that it's ready to go should I ever need it
so I won't have to mess around again.


What number on the drives am I confirming?



On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 11:29:21 AM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
Robert in CA wrote:
You may not think its complicated but I'm just trying
to keep up and understand what your talking about.

As far as the restore I was following your directions
you gave awhile back but honestly Macrium makes this
hard to do (I was looking at the drive letter and the
Mrimg backup was drive D as far I could see) How am
I suppose to tell the difference between the drives
especially as they change letters in Macrium? They
look the same to me. Its so easy to mess up in Macrium.

I don't know what you mean by maintaining consistent
disk settings between runs. The F1 screen did not show
up before.

In summary:

The 780 is working again with Win 7 desktop, but it doesn't
recognize the CD player and the F1 problem.

Here's the boot sequence (f2) and Bios (F8) and F12

https://postimg.cc/CdZSFb81

https://postimg.cc/0zKwDzh2

https://postimg.cc/bdvd1Gtc

https://postimg.cc/k6CCwH4h

https://postimg.cc/dZT915Rw

https://postimg.cc/qhQ7KrLG

https://postimg.cc/8fVb7hZv

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96



It appears your correct and the HD is running as RAID.
So there' no way to fix this? What about switching the
boot sequence order back to the defaults?


Thoughts/suggestions,
Robert


I suspect that both drives (the Win7 and Win10 ones)
are running the AHCI/RAID driver.

For Windows 10, I believe you can change modes by
running Safe Mode. Of course, at the current time,
you might not even have access to the WIndows 10 drive,
to make any changes to it.

Your SATA settings still have a couple ports turned off.
I presume you're doing this for a reason. Maybe 1CH164 in
this picture, is the Windows 7 drive ? The original one ?
And that number isn't the serial number either, that
is probably the firmware version the drive is running
on its controller board.

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96

In this one, you're running "RAID mode ON", which
means it's not conditional on anything. However,
the Intel RAID module in the BIOS, reads the
metadata or lack of metadata, to decide a
drive is JBOD and thus, the boot mode will
be AHCI. It's not until a user sets
the disk to a RAID mode, that RAID metadata
would be used.

Typically, when RAID is ON, and then you press
Control-I during boot (for Intel RAID), you get
to see a screen indicating the array status of
drives.

You don't really need to go there, because you've
never set up RAID on the system. And since the 780
arrived with just the one drive in it, there's
little reason for JoySystems to make a single-drive
member of a RAID array either.

RAID Autodetect / AHCI, presumably is examining the
disks for RAID metadata. But I've not heard or seen
such an option on other systems with Intel RAID capability,
which is why this option is a bit of a puzzle to me.
Who would write custom code to do this ? Intel ?
It probably wouldn't make a whole lot of difference,
depending on what driver was loaded. And in the era
the 780 was designed (likely early Win7), the
combo Intel driver was likely the intended target.

Windows 10 has iastore as well as msahci, so it
has separated drivers. And if you can convince
Windows 10 to go to Safe Mode, you can boot once in
Safe Mode, then boot into Regular Mode, and the
driver issue can be resolved (it tries a Best Match
on drivers). On previous OSes, to change driver modes,
you needed to "re-arm" driver detection with a
Registry edit. Which isn't nearly as easy to do.

I'm hoping not to have to do that! :-)

Windows 7 probably would not have booted, if the
driver was wrong. But instead, it booted and came
up Not Genuine. Since it booted, and since it
seems your backup drive is booting right now,
I'm not sure anything is "busted" while using
the settings you show in your pictures.

The single biggest limitation seems to be the
unticked SATA boxes.

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96

And when you're looking at your two drives, and
doing your "restore", the "restore" should not
be offering any option to reboot, as that implies
it's going to try and overwrite the backup drive.

To do the Win7 restore, I'd want the Win10 drive
disconnected, and the Win7 original drive as
my target, and then boot from the Win7 backup
drive that has the image on it. The Backup drive
has the running OS at the time, and it should
be able to restore over the WIn7 original which
is sitting there.

You can confirm some of the numbers by looking
at the drives when the system is powered off,
just to reinforce what you know about the
source of the backup, the destination, and that
when reviewing these in the Macrium screen,
you're moving stuff to the correct location.

Paul



I went back and ticked all the drivers but it still
comes up with the F1.

I don't understand which numbers on the drives to check
when powered off? You mean to physically take the drive
out and look at it?

At this point I think I will just leave the Win10 on the
drive in case I ever need it. Just so I won't have to go
to the trouble again of getting it and setting it all up.

I can try the safe mode/regular mode with only the Win 10 HD
in the 780.

I guess I'll clone the now spare Win7 drive that got messed
up and use it as a backup and will have to buy new spare HD's.

btw I also removed the data cable.

I guess my idea for 2 drives in the 780 didn't work out and
doesn't look like it ever will and there's no way I'm touching
the 8500.

Robert

If you have several discs the same size and model, you don't give your
partitions labels, and you tend to only have one partition per disc, it
will indeed be harder.

This is exactly my problem.

Robert

The 780 HD is a Seagate and the external is
a WD but I see no difference on Macrium they
look the same to me.

Robert

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 11:51:32 PM UTC-7, Robert in CA wrote:
On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 11:29:21 AM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
Robert in CA wrote:
You may not think its complicated but I'm just trying
to keep up and understand what your talking about.

As far as the restore I was following your directions
you gave awhile back but honestly Macrium makes this
hard to do (I was looking at the drive letter and the
Mrimg backup was drive D as far I could see) How am
I suppose to tell the difference between the drives
especially as they change letters in Macrium? They
look the same to me. Its so easy to mess up in Macrium.

I don't know what you mean by maintaining consistent
disk settings between runs. The F1 screen did not show
up before.

In summary:

The 780 is working again with Win 7 desktop, but it doesn't
recognize the CD player and the F1 problem.

Here's the boot sequence (f2) and Bios (F8) and F12

https://postimg.cc/CdZSFb81

https://postimg.cc/0zKwDzh2

https://postimg.cc/bdvd1Gtc

https://postimg.cc/k6CCwH4h

https://postimg.cc/dZT915Rw

https://postimg.cc/qhQ7KrLG

https://postimg.cc/8fVb7hZv

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96



It appears your correct and the HD is running as RAID.
So there' no way to fix this? What about switching the
boot sequence order back to the defaults?


Thoughts/suggestions,
Robert


I suspect that both drives (the Win7 and Win10 ones)
are running the AHCI/RAID driver.

For Windows 10, I believe you can change modes by
running Safe Mode. Of course, at the current time,
you might not even have access to the WIndows 10 drive,
to make any changes to it.

Your SATA settings still have a couple ports turned off.
I presume you're doing this for a reason. Maybe 1CH164 in
this picture, is the Windows 7 drive ? The original one ?
And that number isn't the serial number either, that
is probably the firmware version the drive is running
on its controller board.

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96

In this one, you're running "RAID mode ON", which
means it's not conditional on anything. However,
the Intel RAID module in the BIOS, reads the
metadata or lack of metadata, to decide a
drive is JBOD and thus, the boot mode will
be AHCI. It's not until a user sets
the disk to a RAID mode, that RAID metadata
would be used.

Typically, when RAID is ON, and then you press
Control-I during boot (for Intel RAID), you get
to see a screen indicating the array status of
drives.

You don't really need to go there, because you've
never set up RAID on the system. And since the 780
arrived with just the one drive in it, there's
little reason for JoySystems to make a single-drive
member of a RAID array either.

RAID Autodetect / AHCI, presumably is examining the
disks for RAID metadata. But I've not heard or seen
such an option on other systems with Intel RAID capability,
which is why this option is a bit of a puzzle to me.
Who would write custom code to do this ? Intel ?
It probably wouldn't make a whole lot of difference,
depending on what driver was loaded. And in the era
the 780 was designed (likely early Win7), the
combo Intel driver was likely the intended target.

Windows 10 has iastore as well as msahci, so it
has separated drivers. And if you can convince
Windows 10 to go to Safe Mode, you can boot once in
Safe Mode, then boot into Regular Mode, and the
driver issue can be resolved (it tries a Best Match
on drivers). On previous OSes, to change driver modes,
you needed to "re-arm" driver detection with a
Registry edit. Which isn't nearly as easy to do.

I'm hoping not to have to do that! :-)

Windows 7 probably would not have booted, if the
driver was wrong. But instead, it booted and came
up Not Genuine. Since it booted, and since it
seems your backup drive is booting right now,
I'm not sure anything is "busted" while using
the settings you show in your pictures.

The single biggest limitation seems to be the
unticked SATA boxes.

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96

And when you're looking at your two drives, and
doing your "restore", the "restore" should not
be offering any option to reboot, as that implies
it's going to try and overwrite the backup drive.

To do the Win7 restore, I'd want the Win10 drive
disconnected, and the Win7 original drive as
my target, and then boot from the Win7 backup
drive that has the image on it. The Backup drive
has the running OS at the time, and it should
be able to restore over the WIn7 original which
is sitting there.

You can confirm some of the numbers by looking
at the drives when the system is powered off,
just to reinforce what you know about the
source of the backup, the destination, and that
when reviewing these in the Macrium screen,
you're moving stuff to the correct location.

Paul





I went back and ticked all drives but still getting the F1.

I think for now I will leave Win10 on the HD
so that it's ready to go should I ever need it
so I won't have to mess around again.


What number on the drives am I confirming?



On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 11:29:21 AM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
Robert in CA wrote:
You may not think its complicated but I'm just trying
to keep up and understand what your talking about.

As far as the restore I was following your directions
you gave awhile back but honestly Macrium makes this
hard to do (I was looking at the drive letter and the
Mrimg backup was drive D as far I could see) How am
I suppose to tell the difference between the drives
especially as they change letters in Macrium? They
look the same to me. Its so easy to mess up in Macrium.

I don't know what you mean by maintaining consistent
disk settings between runs. The F1 screen did not show
up before.

In summary:

The 780 is working again with Win 7 desktop, but it doesn't
recognize the CD player and the F1 problem.

Here's the boot sequence (f2) and Bios (F8) and F12

https://postimg.cc/CdZSFb81

https://postimg.cc/0zKwDzh2

https://postimg.cc/bdvd1Gtc

https://postimg.cc/k6CCwH4h

https://postimg.cc/dZT915Rw

https://postimg.cc/qhQ7KrLG

https://postimg.cc/8fVb7hZv

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96



It appears your correct and the HD is running as RAID.
So there' no way to fix this? What about switching the
boot sequence order back to the defaults?


Thoughts/suggestions,
Robert


I suspect that both drives (the Win7 and Win10 ones)
are running the AHCI/RAID driver.

For Windows 10, I believe you can change modes by
running Safe Mode. Of course, at the current time,
you might not even have access to the WIndows 10 drive,
to make any changes to it.

Your SATA settings still have a couple ports turned off.
I presume you're doing this for a reason. Maybe 1CH164 in
this picture, is the Windows 7 drive ? The original one ?
And that number isn't the serial number either, that
is probably the firmware version the drive is running
on its controller board.

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96

In this one, you're running "RAID mode ON", which
means it's not conditional on anything. However,
the Intel RAID module in the BIOS, reads the
metadata or lack of metadata, to decide a
drive is JBOD and thus, the boot mode will
be AHCI. It's not until a user sets
the disk to a RAID mode, that RAID metadata
would be used.

Typically, when RAID is ON, and then you press
Control-I during boot (for Intel RAID), you get
to see a screen indicating the array status of
drives.

You don't really need to go there, because you've
never set up RAID on the system. And since the 780
arrived with just the one drive in it, there's
little reason for JoySystems to make a single-drive
member of a RAID array either.

RAID Autodetect / AHCI, presumably is examining the
disks for RAID metadata. But I've not heard or seen
such an option on other systems with Intel RAID capability,
which is why this option is a bit of a puzzle to me.
Who would write custom code to do this ? Intel ?
It probably wouldn't make a whole lot of difference,
depending on what driver was loaded. And in the era
the 780 was designed (likely early Win7), the
combo Intel driver was likely the intended target.

Windows 10 has iastore as well as msahci, so it
has separated drivers. And if you can convince
Windows 10 to go to Safe Mode, you can boot once in
Safe Mode, then boot into Regular Mode, and the
driver issue can be resolved (it tries a Best Match
on drivers). On previous OSes, to change driver modes,
you needed to "re-arm" driver detection with a
Registry edit. Which isn't nearly as easy to do.

I'm hoping not to have to do that! :-)

Windows 7 probably would not have booted, if the
driver was wrong. But instead, it booted and came
up Not Genuine. Since it booted, and since it
seems your backup drive is booting right now,
I'm not sure anything is "busted" while using
the settings you show in your pictures.

The single biggest limitation seems to be the
unticked SATA boxes.

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96

And when you're looking at your two drives, and
doing your "restore", the "restore" should not
be offering any option to reboot, as that implies
it's going to try and overwrite the backup drive.

To do the Win7 restore, I'd want the Win10 drive
disconnected, and the Win7 original drive as
my target, and then boot from the Win7 backup
drive that has the image on it. The Backup drive
has the running OS at the time, and it should
be able to restore over the WIn7 original which
is sitting there.

You can confirm some of the numbers by looking
at the drives when the system is powered off,
just to reinforce what you know about the
source of the backup, the destination, and that
when reviewing these in the Macrium screen,
you're moving stuff to the correct location.

Paul



I went back and ticked all the drivers but it still
comes up with the F1.

I don't understand which numbers on the drives to check
when powered off? You mean to physically take the drive
out and look at it?

At this point I think I will just leave the Win10 on the
drive in case I ever need it. Just so I won't have to go
to the trouble again of getting it and setting it all up.

I can try the safe mode/regular mode with only the Win 10 HD
in the 780.

I guess I'll clone the now spare Win7 drive that got messed
up and use it as a backup and will have to buy new spare HD's.

btw I also removed the data cable.

I guess my idea for 2 drives in the 780 didn't work out and
doesn't look like it ever will and there's no way I'm touching
the 8500.

Robert



On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 11:51:32 PM UTC-7, Robert in CA wrote:
On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 11:29:21 AM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
Robert in CA wrote:
You may not think its complicated but I'm just trying
to keep up and understand what your talking about.

As far as the restore I was following your directions
you gave awhile back but honestly Macrium makes this
hard to do (I was looking at the drive letter and the
Mrimg backup was drive D as far I could see) How am
I suppose to tell the difference between the drives
especially as they change letters in Macrium? They
look the same to me. Its so easy to mess up in Macrium.

I don't know what you mean by maintaining consistent
disk settings between runs. The F1 screen did not show
up before.

In summary:

The 780 is working again with Win 7 desktop, but it doesn't
recognize the CD player and the F1 problem.

Here's the boot sequence (f2) and Bios (F8) and F12

https://postimg.cc/CdZSFb81

https://postimg.cc/0zKwDzh2

https://postimg.cc/bdvd1Gtc

https://postimg.cc/k6CCwH4h

https://postimg.cc/dZT915Rw

https://postimg.cc/qhQ7KrLG

https://postimg.cc/8fVb7hZv

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96



It appears your correct and the HD is running as RAID.
So there' no way to fix this? What about switching the
boot sequence order back to the defaults?


Thoughts/suggestions,
Robert


I suspect that both drives (the Win7 and Win10 ones)
are running the AHCI/RAID driver.

For Windows 10, I believe you can change modes by
running Safe Mode. Of course, at the current time,
you might not even have access to the WIndows 10 drive,
to make any changes to it.

Your SATA settings still have a couple ports turned off.
I presume you're doing this for a reason. Maybe 1CH164 in
this picture, is the Windows 7 drive ? The original one ?
And that number isn't the serial number either, that
is probably the firmware version the drive is running
on its controller board.

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96

In this one, you're running "RAID mode ON", which
means it's not conditional on anything. However,
the Intel RAID module in the BIOS, reads the
metadata or lack of metadata, to decide a
drive is JBOD and thus, the boot mode will
be AHCI. It's not until a user sets
the disk to a RAID mode, that RAID metadata
would be used.

Typically, when RAID is ON, and then you press
Control-I during boot (for Intel RAID), you get
to see a screen indicating the array status of
drives.

You don't really need to go there, because you've
never set up RAID on the system. And since the 780
arrived with just the one drive in it, there's
little reason for JoySystems to make a single-drive
member of a RAID array either.

RAID Autodetect / AHCI, presumably is examining the
disks for RAID metadata. But I've not heard or seen
such an option on other systems with Intel RAID capability,
which is why this option is a bit of a puzzle to me.
Who would write custom code to do this ? Intel ?
It probably wouldn't make a whole lot of difference,
depending on what driver was loaded. And in the era
the 780 was designed (likely early Win7), the
combo Intel driver was likely the intended target.

Windows 10 has iastore as well as msahci, so it
has separated drivers. And if you can convince
Windows 10 to go to Safe Mode, you can boot once in
Safe Mode, then boot into Regular Mode, and the
driver issue can be resolved (it tries a Best Match
on drivers). On previous OSes, to change driver modes,
you needed to "re-arm" driver detection with a
Registry edit. Which isn't nearly as easy to do.

I'm hoping not to have to do that! :-)

Windows 7 probably would not have booted, if the
driver was wrong. But instead, it booted and came
up Not Genuine. Since it booted, and since it
seems your backup drive is booting right now,
I'm not sure anything is "busted" while using
the settings you show in your pictures.

The single biggest limitation seems to be the
unticked SATA boxes.

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96

And when you're looking at your two drives, and
doing your "restore", the "restore" should not
be offering any option to reboot, as that implies
it's going to try and overwrite the backup drive.

To do the Win7 restore, I'd want the Win10 drive
disconnected, and the Win7 original drive as
my target, and then boot from the Win7 backup
drive that has the image on it. The Backup drive
has the running OS at the time, and it should
be able to restore over the WIn7 original which
is sitting there.

You can confirm some of the numbers by looking
at the drives when the system is powered off,
just to reinforce what you know about the
source of the backup, the destination, and that
when reviewing these in the Macrium screen,
you're moving stuff to the correct location.

Paul





I went back and ticked all drives but still getting the F1.

I think for now I will leave Win10 on the HD
so that it's ready to go should I ever need it
so I won't have to mess around again.


What number on the drives am I confirming?



On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 11:29:21 AM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
Robert in CA wrote:
You may not think its complicated but I'm just trying
to keep up and understand what your talking about.

As far as the restore I was following your directions
you gave awhile back but honestly Macrium makes this
hard to do (I was looking at the drive letter and the
Mrimg backup was drive D as far I could see) How am
I suppose to tell the difference between the drives
especially as they change letters in Macrium? They
look the same to me. Its so easy to mess up in Macrium.

I don't know what you mean by maintaining consistent
disk settings between runs. The F1 screen did not show
up before.

In summary:

The 780 is working again with Win 7 desktop, but it doesn't
recognize the CD player and the F1 problem.

Here's the boot sequence (f2) and Bios (F8) and F12

https://postimg.cc/CdZSFb81

https://postimg.cc/0zKwDzh2

https://postimg.cc/bdvd1Gtc

https://postimg.cc/k6CCwH4h

https://postimg.cc/dZT915Rw

https://postimg.cc/qhQ7KrLG

https://postimg.cc/8fVb7hZv

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96



It appears your correct and the HD is running as RAID.
So there' no way to fix this? What about switching the
boot sequence order back to the defaults?


Thoughts/suggestions,
Robert


I suspect that both drives (the Win7 and Win10 ones)
are running the AHCI/RAID driver.

For Windows 10, I believe you can change modes by
running Safe Mode. Of course, at the current time,
you might not even have access to the WIndows 10 drive,
to make any changes to it.

Your SATA settings still have a couple ports turned off.
I presume you're doing this for a reason. Maybe 1CH164 in
this picture, is the Windows 7 drive ? The original one ?
And that number isn't the serial number either, that
is probably the firmware version the drive is running
on its controller board.

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96

In this one, you're running "RAID mode ON", which
means it's not conditional on anything. However,
the Intel RAID module in the BIOS, reads the
metadata or lack of metadata, to decide a
drive is JBOD and thus, the boot mode will
be AHCI. It's not until a user sets
the disk to a RAID mode, that RAID metadata
would be used.

Typically, when RAID is ON, and then you press
Control-I during boot (for Intel RAID), you get
to see a screen indicating the array status of
drives.

You don't really need to go there, because you've
never set up RAID on the system. And since the 780
arrived with just the one drive in it, there's
little reason for JoySystems to make a single-drive
member of a RAID array either.

RAID Autodetect / AHCI, presumably is examining the
disks for RAID metadata. But I've not heard or seen
such an option on other systems with Intel RAID capability,
which is why this option is a bit of a puzzle to me.
Who would write custom code to do this ? Intel ?
It probably wouldn't make a whole lot of difference,
depending on what driver was loaded. And in the era
the 780 was designed (likely early Win7), the
combo Intel driver was likely the intended target.

Windows 10 has iastore as well as msahci, so it
has separated drivers. And if you can convince
Windows 10 to go to Safe Mode, you can boot once in
Safe Mode, then boot into Regular Mode, and the
driver issue can be resolved (it tries a Best Match
on drivers). On previous OSes, to change driver modes,
you needed to "re-arm" driver detection with a
Registry edit. Which isn't nearly as easy to do.

I'm hoping not to have to do that! :-)

Windows 7 probably would not have booted, if the
driver was wrong. But instead, it booted and came
up Not Genuine. Since it booted, and since it
seems your backup drive is booting right now,
I'm not sure anything is "busted" while using
the settings you show in your pictures.

The single biggest limitation seems to be the
unticked SATA boxes.

https://postimg.cc/R3ZCzy96

And when you're looking at your two drives, and
doing your "restore", the "restore" should not
be offering any option to reboot, as that implies
it's going to try and overwrite the backup drive.

To do the Win7 restore, I'd want the Win10 drive
disconnected, and the Win7 original drive as
my target, and then boot from the Win7 backup
drive that has the image on it. The Backup drive
has the running OS at the time, and it should
be able to restore over the WIn7 original which
is sitting there.

You can confirm some of the numbers by looking
at the drives when the system is powered off,
just to reinforce what you know about the
source of the backup, the destination, and that
when reviewing these in the Macrium screen,
you're moving stuff to the correct location.

Paul



I went back and ticked all the drivers but it still
comes up with the F1.

I don't understand which numbers on the drives to check
when powered off? You mean to physically take the drive
out and look at it?

At this point I think I will just leave the Win10 on the
drive in case I ever need it. Just so I won't have to go
to the trouble again of getting it and setting it all up.

I can try the safe mode/regular mode with only the Win 10 HD
in the 780.

I guess I'll clone the now spare Win7 drive that got messed
up and use it as a backup and will have to buy new spare HD's.

btw I also removed the data cable.

I guess my idea for 2 drives in the 780 didn't work out and
doesn't look like it ever will and there's no way I'm touching
the 8500.

Robert



So do I remove the F1 problem?

Robert

Robert in CA wrote:


The 780 HD is a Seagate and the external is
a WD but I see no difference on Macrium they
look the same to me.

Robert


Let's look at one of your pictures.

https://postimg.cc/GHmFg1gR

The source (MRIMG) contains the identifier

5A03 2C0C

and the destination (disk) contains a different identifier
implying this is probably not what you want to do.

96A6 A4C1

Both disk drives in this case are Seagate 2TB, one is probably
the main drive from the machine, the other is likely
the backup drive with the image.

Here is a picture of some drives on my systems,
with GPT and MBR disks and the semi-unique identifiers they're
showing at the moment.

(You'll need to "Download original image" to view full resolution.)

https://i.postimg.cc/TYHRNRy0/disk-identifiers.gif

The drives do actually have serial numbers and Lavalys Everest
can show me the serial numbers (without having to read it
off the printed label on the disk drive itself). The serial
numbers are unique, and don't change.

Using the identifiers, try to line them up as best you can.
The disk image in this case, should be going back to a
disk with the same eight-character identifier.

Paul

Robert in CA wrote:


So do I remove the F1 problem?

Robert

A "Press F1" error in this case is triggered
by enabling a SATA port and not having a SATA
drive present. That's probably a good thing when
RAID disks are involved, and a dumb idea if
RAID is disabled or not desired.

You could disable SATA ports when you're not using
them. That's perhaps one way to fix the "Press F1" error.

My motherboards here, have a

"Stop on" [No Error] == other values might be
[All errors]
[Floppy error]
[Whatever error]

option, that when an error occurs, the F1
prompt does *not* occur. But your Dell BIOS is
pretty clever and will undoubtedly do these
things a different way, right ?

Paul

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 1:10:09 AM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
Robert in CA wrote:


The 780 HD is a Seagate and the external is
a WD but I see no difference on Macrium they
look the same to me.

Robert


Let's look at one of your pictures.

https://postimg.cc/GHmFg1gR

The source (MRIMG) contains the identifier

5A03 2C0C

and the destination (disk) contains a different identifier
implying this is probably not what you want to do.

96A6 A4C1

Both disk drives in this case are Seagate 2TB, one is probably
the main drive from the machine, the other is likely
the backup drive with the image.

Here is a picture of some drives on my systems,
with GPT and MBR disks and the semi-unique identifiers they're
showing at the moment.

(You'll need to "Download original image" to view full resolution.)

https://i.postimg.cc/TYHRNRy0/disk-identifiers.gif

The drives do actually have serial numbers and Lavalys Everest
can show me the serial numbers (without having to read it
off the printed label on the disk drive itself). The serial
numbers are unique, and don't change.

Using the identifiers, try to line them up as best you can.
The disk image in this case, should be going back to a
disk with the same eight-character identifier.

Paul

So I guess when I first pull up the Mrimg
I should look for the AE70 or something similar?
So when I start the process I look for that as
the source. Is that correct?

Robert

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 1:20:29 AM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
Robert in CA wrote:


So do I remove the F1 problem?

Robert

A "Press F1" error in this case is triggered
by enabling a SATA port and not having a SATA
drive present. That's probably a good thing when
RAID disks are involved, and a dumb idea if
RAID is disabled or not desired.

You could disable SATA ports when you're not using
them. That's perhaps one way to fix the "Press F1" error.

My motherboards here, have a

"Stop on" [No Error] == other values might be
[All errors]
[Floppy error]
[Whatever error]

option, that when an error occurs, the F1
prompt does *not* occur. But your Dell BIOS is
pretty clever and will undoubtedly do these
things a different way, right ?

Paul

This is why I removed the data cable and
un-ticked the WIN10 HD but you advised not
to do that. So should I put the bad Win7
and Win10 back and see if we can resolve
the problems because I don't want to mess
this HD up.

How about this.. remove the present HD and
replace with the Win 10 and see if I can get
it to load in Safe Mode.

Then try install the bad HD and see if I can
do a restore but I have a question on that.
I obviously needed a rescue disk to clone the
780 backup HD but I don't have a 780 rescue CD
so my question is this.

1. can I use the same rescue CD on the 8500 and 780?
2. the 780 CD drive isn't responding so should I redo
the boot order so all removable media is on top eg.

USB
Floppy drives
card readers
hard drive
hard drive

Then try and restore the bad drive?

Robert

In message ,
Robert in CA writes:


If you have several discs the same size and model, you don't give your
partitions labels, and you tend to only have one partition per disc, it
will indeed be harder.

This is exactly my problem.

Robert

Well, start giving your partitions labels. In Windows Explorer, just
select a drive letter, right-click, and choose properties - there's an
obvious box near the top into which you can type a label. Macrium does
show these labels.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

science is not intended to be foolproof. Science is about crawling toward the
truth over time. - Scott Adams, 2015-2-2

Robert in CA wrote:
On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 1:20:29 AM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
Robert in CA wrote:

So do I remove the F1 problem?

Robert
A "Press F1" error in this case is triggered
by enabling a SATA port and not having a SATA
drive present. That's probably a good thing when
RAID disks are involved, and a dumb idea if
RAID is disabled or not desired.

You could disable SATA ports when you're not using
them. That's perhaps one way to fix the "Press F1" error.

My motherboards here, have a

"Stop on" [No Error] == other values might be
[All errors]
[Floppy error]
[Whatever error]

option, that when an error occurs, the F1
prompt does *not* occur. But your Dell BIOS is
pretty clever and will undoubtedly do these
things a different way, right ?

Paul

This is why I removed the data cable and
un-ticked the WIN10 HD but you advised not
to do that. So should I put the bad Win7
and Win10 back and see if we can resolve
the problems because I don't want to mess
this HD up.

How about this.. remove the present HD and
replace with the Win 10 and see if I can get
it to load in Safe Mode.

Then try install the bad HD and see if I can
do a restore but I have a question on that.
I obviously needed a rescue disk to clone the
780 backup HD but I don't have a 780 rescue CD
so my question is this.

1. can I use the same rescue CD on the 8500 and 780?
2. the 780 CD drive isn't responding so should I redo
the boot order so all removable media is on top eg.

USB
Floppy drives
card readers
hard drive
hard drive

Then try and restore the bad drive?

Robert

Restoring CD/DVD drive operation is pretty important.

I would make sure the enabled SATA cables include the
CD optical drive port as well.

There is one screen in your BIOS, which shows device
identifications when the BIOS comes up. By checking
that screen, you can tell whether the SATA port
is enabled.

If the SATA connectors on the motherboard had good
silk screen labels on them, this would take the
mystery out of figuring out which port is running
the optical drive.

And it doesn't matter if you hit an F1 during this
"adjustment phase". In principle, you should be
able to switch on all the SATA ports, then use the
BIOS "identification" screen to verify which ports
got a response. Then, if you want, untick the ports
that don't have a drive connected.

I have had a common Macrium Reflect CD run two
computers (allow bootup), but that's not a certainty,
more likely just an accident. There could be
driver differences between versions of Macrium
discs, as to what is included, and I don't want
to guess at that.

I believe the defaults for the Optiplex 780, are
SATA1 and SATA2 enabled, and some RAID mode. SATA3
and SATA4 turned off (as when shipped, the 780
would have a disk drive on SATA1 and an optical
drive on SATA2, using up the ports which are
switched on).

On my computers here, they don't manage their SATA ports
that way. The enable/disable is independent of any F1 error.
An enabled port with no drive connected, causes not
a ripple in the BIOS state. It does not care. It
detects whatever drives it can find, compares them
to the boot menu, and away it goes. If I use the
popup boot key, I can select anything which has been
(dynamically) detected.

In principle, with two hard drives, you could

Original Win7 drive --- restore onto this one
Drive with the backup --- boot this one

Then remove the backup drive and install the Win10 drive

Win7 drive
Win10 drive

And have no CD in the picture at all at that point.
If the machine insists that SATA1 enabled and SATA2 enabled
is all that's going to work, that would be a start.

*******

The alternative is to do:

Original Win7 drive --+
Optical drive connected (boot Macrium CD) |
|
USB enclosure contains backup MRIMG ---------+

When you want the Win7 setup, use Win7 disk and CD drive:

Win7 drive
Optical drive

When you want the Win10 setup, use Win10 disk and CD drive:

Win10 drive
Optical drive

But personally, I would work on my BIOS skill set,
and discover what combination of ports makes three
things work. Because ultimately, you are the boss,
not the computer, and you really want it to do this.

Win7 drive SATA1
Win10 drive SATA2
Optical drive port SATA3

At this point, I'm trying not to meddle with the
state of the OSes themselves. Because it gets
too complicated, mixing OS-specific recipes with
your SATA-activity problem. If the OSes handled
driver issues more gracefully, I would be more
aggressive in my approach. In Windows 10, you
can get it to "consider" changing drivers, if you
boot to Safe Mode, then boot in regular mode.
It can pick up a hardware change if you do it
that way. But Safe Mode doesn't happen by pressing
F8 in Windows 10, *unless* you happen to add the
black boot screen by using BCDEDIT. Exactly why Microsoft
considers this a feature, is a mystery to me. Included
in that mystery, is how the black boot screen with
the F8 option *disappears* if you're multibooting.

HTH,
Paul