Why most new PCs have USB 2.0 but not Firewire builtin?

Xref: kermit microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardwa188551 rec.photo.digital:807654 rec.video.desktop:291736

"Editor www.nutritionsoftware.org" nseditor2002 wrote in
message ...

Could someone explain why this is so? I am sure there are good reasons
behind all this.

It's mostly the issue of Intel's politics. :-/

True Intel-branded motherboards lack IEEE-1394 motherboards due to the Not
Invented Here syndrome, since Intel wants to push the alternative to
IEEE-1394, USB 2.0, which is an Intel-developed product. Because Dell is
probably buying their motherboards directly from Intel, that's why your
machine lacks IEEE-1394 ports.

However, a lot of Taiwanese-brand motherboards now sport IEEE-1394
connectors. The top-tier motherboards from Abit, ASUS, ECS, FIC, Shuttle,
Soyo, Tyan, etc. have both USB 2.0 and IEEE-1394 port connections, mostly
because the manufacturers know these motherboards are going into high-end
"enthusiast" machines that have a lot of high-end hardware installed.

IEEE-1394 is actually quite preferable for applications that need to
transfer large amounts of information quickly, primarily DV camcorders and
high-end scanners. It should be noted that a lot of the new high-end
digital-format SLR's now sport USB 2.0 connections instead of IEEE-1394
connections.

Hope this clears things up! :-)

--
Raymond Chuang
Sacramento, CA USA

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 04:37:20 +0000, Editor www.nutritionsoftware.org
wrote:

My latest Dell has 6 USB 2.0 ports. But no 1394!
I'd prefer to have 4 USBs and 2 FWs instead.

This distinction seems to apply to digicams and cameras: my 2 Sony
camcorders both have Firewire to download to PCs. My cameras all have USB
download.
Could someone explain why this is so? I am sure there are good reasons
behind all this.
Thanks.

Good reasons? Maybe, it depends on if your're an accountant or not. In
engineering terms, there's no good reason why not. But in accounting terms
it's a much different story.

Simple economics of scale.

USB 2 is "in the chipset" so therefore it cost nothing to "include" in a
PC other then a connector and maybe some addional misc. parts.

Firewire requires more chips than just the basic shipset.

So it you're making millions of motherboards or PCs, then the extre 3 or 4
bucks for the chip add up to a,ot of money. I met a guy who used to design
Intel motherboards for mass market PCs and asked him why they didn't put
more than just a couple of DIMM sockets on them and he asid "they won;t
let us because that would add an extra 25-cents" - it would add hundreds
of thousands of dollarns to the cost of the production with no return.

Fortunately if you build your own or if you're willing to pay for more than
a basic PC and shop around you can get ready made PCs with Firewire. I saw
some nice PC's on sale in a Radio Shack one day with a nice little door on
the front panel with Firewire connectors.

If you want to see more PC's with Firewire support - buy one with it
included. Voting with your dollars sends a powerful message. When you
shop, tell the salesman you'll only buy one with Firewire. Write to Dell,
HP, IBM, etc and tell them you want it. Write to Intel en-masse and demand
Firewire support in the chipset. There's no reason in the world that
Intel can;t do this - they have *radios* in their chipsets, so Firewire
should be painless for them!

But then Intel developed USB2 to compete with Firewire, so it's a
political issue with them more than anything else. Intel knows that video
is a killer app, so demand Firewire. If enough people demand it,
eventually they'll respond.

You bought a Dell - you bought it online, yes? Didn't the customization
screen give you an option of a Firewire card? If not, call Dell and
complain -but don't complain to the first person that answers the phone,
demand to speak to a sales manager.

But if you're really smart, just open the case and plug in a $20 Firewire
card and don't depend on someone else to build it for you. It's sdimple
and painless and there's no drivers to load, it just works.

--Keith

Editor www.nutritionsoftware.org wrote:

My latest Dell has 6 USB 2.0 ports. But no 1394!
I'd prefer to have 4 USBs and 2 FWs instead.

This distinction seems to apply to digicams and cameras: my 2 Sony
camcorders both have Firewire to download to PCs. My cameras all have USB
download.
Could someone explain why this is so? I am sure there are good reasons
behind all this.
Thanks.

I think all you people missed the obvious.. You guys are looking for
some complex answer when the answer is so simple..

Intel invented the USB. Firewire is a competing standard, and since
intel based chips are the predominate chips used in the manufactures
motherboards, they don't want to add firewire. It's only the customers
requesting firewire that we see firewire in anything..

-richard

"Richard Ragon" wrote in message
. com...
Editor www.nutritionsoftware.org wrote:


I think all you people missed the obvious.. You guys are looking for
some complex answer when the answer is so simple..

Intel invented the USB. Firewire is a competing standard, and since
intel based chips are the predominate chips used in the manufactures
motherboards, they don't want to add firewire. It's only the customers
requesting firewire that we see firewire in anything..


A reiteration of at least 5 different posts in this thread.

HMc

Howard McCollister wrote:

"Richard Ragon" wrote in message
. com...

Editor www.nutritionsoftware.org wrote:



I think all you people missed the obvious.. You guys are looking for
some complex answer when the answer is so simple..

Intel invented the USB. Firewire is a competing standard, and since
intel based chips are the predominate chips used in the manufactures
motherboards, they don't want to add firewire. It's only the customers
requesting firewire that we see firewire in anything..



A reiteration of at least 5 different posts in this thread.

Of which were cross posted, and I can't see..

"Richard Ragon" wrote in message
om...
Howard McCollister wrote:

"Richard Ragon" wrote in message
. com...

Editor www.nutritionsoftware.org wrote:



I think all you people missed the obvious.. You guys are looking for
some complex answer when the answer is so simple..

Intel invented the USB. Firewire is a competing standard, and since
intel based chips are the predominate chips used in the manufactures
motherboards, they don't want to add firewire. It's only the customers
requesting firewire that we see firewire in anything..



A reiteration of at least 5 different posts in this thread.

Of which were cross posted, and I can't see..

So it was YOU who missed what was "obvious" to all but you.

Mark M wrote:

"Richard Ragon" wrote in message
om...

Howard McCollister wrote:


"Richard Ragon" wrote in message
gy.com...


Editor www.nutritionsoftware.org wrote:



I think all you people missed the obvious.. You guys are looking for
some complex answer when the answer is so simple..

Intel invented the USB. Firewire is a competing standard, and since
intel based chips are the predominate chips used in the manufactures
motherboards, they don't want to add firewire. It's only the customers
requesting firewire that we see firewire in anything..



A reiteration of at least 5 different posts in this thread.

Of which were cross posted, and I can't see..


So it was YOU who missed what was "obvious" to all but you.


So... if I don't subscribe to every one of the news forums that this was
posted too.. I'm missing the obvious?

-Richard

Editor www.nutritionsoftware.org wrote:

My latest Dell has 6 USB 2.0 ports. But no 1394!
I'd prefer to have 4 USBs and 2 FWs instead.

Could someone explain why this is so?
I am sure there are good reasons behind all this.

No, there are just "reasons".

Back when it had the chance to make FW the
leading serial PnP port, Apple screwed it
up by charging a royalty of $1 per port.
$2 per machine was easily enough to prevent
adoption.

That made also it real easy for Intel to
push USB instead.

Apple now charges less, I hear, but it still
isn't royalty-free, and now that USB 2.0 is
out, FW has lost the commanding performance
lead that it had.

FW card tip:

If you get a PCI FW card, make sure it has
pins for an internal molex drive power connector.

If it doesn't, it cannot provide to all bus ports
the "full" power that devices are allowed to
draw (they won't get enumerated if they try).
PCI slots only provide 25W, and a full-power
FW port may provide between 12 and 18W (per port).

Even if you don't have a single device requiring
more than 0.5A, you may have multiple devices
that exceed what a PCI card can deliver without
outside power.

--
Regards, PO Box 248
Bob Niland Enterprise
Kansas USA
which, due to spam, is: 67441-0248
email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com
http://www.access-one.com/rjn

Unless otherwise specifically stated, expressing
personal opinions and NOT speaking for any
employer, client or Internet Service Provider.

"Richard Ragon" wrote in message
om...
Mark M wrote:

"Richard Ragon" wrote in message
om...

Howard McCollister wrote:


"Richard Ragon" wrote in message
gy.com...


Editor www.nutritionsoftware.org wrote:



I think all you people missed the obvious.. You guys are looking for
some complex answer when the answer is so simple..

Intel invented the USB. Firewire is a competing standard, and since
intel based chips are the predominate chips used in the manufactures
motherboards, they don't want to add firewire. It's only the
customers
requesting firewire that we see firewire in anything..



A reiteration of at least 5 different posts in this thread.

Of which were cross posted, and I can't see..


So it was YOU who missed what was "obvious" to all but you.


So... if I don't subscribe to every one of the news forums that this was
posted too.. I'm missing the obvious?

Didn't you mean that you've filtered cross-posted messages?
If not, then I don't know what prevented seeing it.
No matter--just curious.

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 04:37:20 GMT, "Editor www.nutritionsoftware.org"
nseditor2002 wrote:

My latest Dell has 6 USB 2.0 ports. But no 1394!
I'd prefer to have 4 USBs and 2 FWs instead.


I don't often do this BUT I flicked over to the QVC shopping channell on UK
freeview digital TV the other night when they had a Dell program on selling a
specifc version of a Dell 4600 PC.

They were going on at how great it was that this thing had a 1394 port for use
with DV cams so I thought it ironic what I saw thus post.

Where was this port implemented? On the Creative Soundblaster Audoligy 2 sound
card that is where.

Moral? If you want 1394 out of the box with Dell buy one with the correct
creative sound card in place.

Note the QVC mob said the specific 4600 they were offering was not available
anywhere else but form them so don't slag me off if you can't configure a Dell
PC in this way at the Dell web site.

Dave

Using windows with a 3 or more firewire ports causes a lot of problems if
they are on PCI cards. I founds this out from maxtor with a external hard
drive. They referred me to a known bug in windows XP that screws up. They
sent me to the MS database and sure enough they talk about it. I yanked out
a firewire card and just left the firewire on the RT 2500 card and
everything worked fine.



"Dave Oddie" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 04:37:20 GMT, "Editor www.nutritionsoftware.org"
nseditor2002 wrote:

My latest Dell has 6 USB 2.0 ports. But no 1394!
I'd prefer to have 4 USBs and 2 FWs instead.


I don't often do this BUT I flicked over to the QVC shopping channell on
UK
freeview digital TV the other night when they had a Dell program on
selling a
specifc version of a Dell 4600 PC.

They were going on at how great it was that this thing had a 1394 port for
use
with DV cams so I thought it ironic what I saw thus post.

Where was this port implemented? On the Creative Soundblaster Audoligy 2
sound
card that is where.

Moral? If you want 1394 out of the box with Dell buy one with the correct
creative sound card in place.

Note the QVC mob said the specific 4600 they were offering was not
available
anywhere else but form them so don't slag me off if you can't configure a
Dell
PC in this way at the Dell web site.

Dave

Mark M wrote:

There are comparatively few devices that utilize firewire over USB, and
since USB 2.0 is fully compatible with the zillions of existing USB 1.0
devices, it makes sense for all computers to come equipped with 2.0.

Thank you, Mr. Lemming.

Thank you, Mr. Lemming.

(LOL!)

I use FW and USB side by side on Wintel systems and must say FW is far more
relaible and much easier to use day in & day out. So much for the "march of
progress" where Billy and his merry band of men are concerned!

Right--

My biggest gripe is unfulfilled promises. USB was supposed to allow you to plug
in or unplug devices "on the fly".
But Windows has a hissy fit if you turn off your digital camera, for example,
even if you don't need it and aren't accessing it anymore. And USB doesn't
reach sustained speeds at the claimed performance levels. And it can and will
bring your entire system down with a crash. It is, in a word, pathetic.

Firewire is elegant and reliable. Plug in the camcorder, run Premiere, load the
data. When you're done, disconnect or shut off the camera.... and not a peep
from firewire.

It is actually quite remarkable that USB can't do that. It is beyond
incompetent. It's not only that they can't think of a solution, but that they
actively suck all the solutions everyone else is thinking of out of the room.

Jerry McG wrote:

Thank you, Mr. Lemming.

(LOL!)

I use FW and USB side by side on Wintel systems and must say FW is far more
relaible and much easier to use day in & day out. So much for the "march of
progress" where Billy and his merry band of men are concerned!

In rec.video.desktop Bill Van Dyk wrote:

: Firewire is elegant and reliable. Plug in the camcorder, run Premiere, load the
: data. When you're done, disconnect or shut off the camera.... and not a peep
: from firewire.

: It is actually quite remarkable that USB can't do that. It is beyond

But is that USB's problem, or the Windows implementation of it ? On my Linux
machine I plug/unplug my USB scanner and web cam with no ill effects.

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