Why most new PCs have USB 2.0 but not Firewire builtin?

Mark M wrote:
"Bill Van Dyk" wrote in message
...
My point is that when we as consumers flock to a particular standard
simply because it appears to be winning the market place, we end up
with crap like VHS and USB and Celine Dionne instead of Beta and
Firewire and Lucinda Williams.

There are often good reasons for making decisions based on pure
technical considerations and fighting for competition in the
marketplace, which ultimately benefits all consumers. In fact, when
curmudgeonly people like myself resist the herd mentality and buy
products that haven't won wide acceptance but are technically
superior, we do a service for all consumers, by sustaining
competition and demanding better performance from manufacturers.

In other words, people should think for themselves. The reason we
have to put up with so much bad software, stupid laws, and annoying
celebrities, is because sometimes we behave like sheep.

So which of my devices should I have refused to purchase since they
weren't available with firewire?
My 10D?
Any of my other 25 currently used USB devices?
Which ones should I have passed by in the name of firewire?

The ones that don't work as expected? heh

--
Shenan Stanley
"Just trying to help"

A voice of reason on usenet.

Thanks

"Keith" == Keith Clark writes:

Keith There's a place for both. If you're using a digital video
Keith camcorder the only meaningful option is IEEE-1394 as Firewire
Keith is correctly called, because that's the defacto industry
Keith standard.

Keith By the same token if you're using external hard drives you're
Keith better off with Firewire than USB because you can capture
Keith directly to the drive from your camcorder without sucking up
Keith CPU cycles which can be important for video.

Keith --Keith

Keith Stanley Krute wrote:

Hi Bill

Sorry you don't like USB.

I like it a lot. My computer clients/customers like it. It
generally Just Works. It's made lots of stuff that used to be a
headache easy.

Just today I'm working on a customer's older laptop, which lacks
any network connectivity. Plugged in a lovely LinkSys USB net
adapter, size of a gnat, and am thus able to back up his hard
drive and do other shmootz over the network here in the Plywood
Labooratory. This particular device astonishes me, both by its
size and JustWorks functionality. I'm geezer enough to remember
LAN adapters from the late 1980's, huge brain-dead fussy boards
that'd be a complete butt-pain to install and get running
correctly.

As far as cameras having issues with USB connections: my personal
sniff is that results from the general situation of camera
companies writing crappy software. I sell all my customers a
manyFormats-in-one memory card reader, either internal or
external, and show them how to use that. I advise them against
using ANY camera manufacture software, unless it's a RAW converter
whose functionality is nowhere else obtainable.

Regards,

Stan

ps -- On new computers that I build, I recommend that folks let me
give them both USB AND Firewire functionality, with built-in
front-panel ports. Most folks eschew the Firewire part, unless
they're going to be doing video editing, in which case it's a
no-brainer easy-sell.

"Shenan T. Stanley" wrote in message
...
Mark M wrote:
"Bill Van Dyk" wrote in message
...
My point is that when we as consumers flock to a particular standard
simply because it appears to be winning the market place, we end up
with crap like VHS and USB and Celine Dionne instead of Beta and
Firewire and Lucinda Williams.

There are often good reasons for making decisions based on pure
technical considerations and fighting for competition in the
marketplace, which ultimately benefits all consumers. In fact, when
curmudgeonly people like myself resist the herd mentality and buy
products that haven't won wide acceptance but are technically
superior, we do a service for all consumers, by sustaining
competition and demanding better performance from manufacturers.

In other words, people should think for themselves. The reason we
have to put up with so much bad software, stupid laws, and annoying
celebrities, is because sometimes we behave like sheep.

So which of my devices should I have refused to purchase since they
weren't available with firewire?
My 10D?
Any of my other 25 currently used USB devices?
Which ones should I have passed by in the name of firewire?

The ones that don't work as expected? heh

OK. That would be none of them.

They all work quite nicely.

On 3 Dec 2003 12:58:11 -0600, "Howard McCollister"
wrote:

I doubt that Apple had any expectation that firewire would become the
peripheral bus of choice as opposed to USB

Wasn't firwire also orginally emant to be a low-cost high-speed
network solution? Which then niftly was used by Sony etc as an ideal
thing to transport high-speed data around. Firewire can handle tcp/ip

cheers

-martin-
--
filmmaker/DP/editor,
Sydney, Australia

http://www.pictocrime.com

Finally, yeah.

Firewire worked fabulously for many years before USB finally became at all
functional. The only reason USB even remained in the market is because of
the dominant position of Wintel, which is able to shove deficient and
defective technologies down our throats. Now, users say, what's the
problem-- USB works fine! Yes, now it finally does. By preventing real
competition, Intel and Windows were able to finally correct the deficiencies
in USB without losing any customers.

There must be days when the business staff at Intel and Microsoft actually
get a little weepy at the touching loyalty of their customers, in the face of
their monumental failures, incompetences, and exaggerations. "You people out
there are are just too good to be true! We love you!"

Regardless, I'm glad to hear that USB finally works.

Mark M wrote:

They all work quite nicely.

On 12/4/03 3:36 PM, in article ,
"Bill Van Dyk" wrote:


There must be days when the business staff at Intel and Microsoft actually
get a little weepy at the touching loyalty of their customers, in the face of
their monumental failures, incompetences, and exaggerations. "You people out
there are are just too good to be true! We love you!"

Nelson Mandella is now working in their Public Relations department?


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Hi Bill

By preventing real
competition, Intel and Windows

That's so true, I almost forget,
it was that pesky Bill Gates and Andy Grove who
told Steve Jobs to kill the Mac clone
market, and thereby erase any
chance of free-market OS competition.

Thanks for the reminder !

Stan

In article , George Kerby wrote:
On 12/4/03 3:36 PM, in article ,
"Bill Van Dyk" wrote:


There must be days when the business staff at Intel and Microsoft actually
get a little weepy at the touching loyalty of their customers, in the face of
their monumental failures, incompetences, and exaggerations. "You people out
there are are just too good to be true! We love you!"

Nelson Mandella is now working in their Public Relations department?


___

They can have him, Mandella , the wonderfull humanitarian (not) that he claims
to be basically said the people who died in 9/11 deserved it.

There must be days when the business staff at Intel and Microsoft actually
get a little weepy at the touching loyalty of their customers, in the face
of
their monumental failures, incompetences, and exaggerations. "You people
out
there are are just too good to be true! We love you!"

Do you have any idea how annoyed and disappointed I've been with Microsoft
of the years?
I am no Microsoft loyalist...
But--I am willing to identify improvements when they are clear and
substantial.

When the programs I prefer become available on a different OS that is
better...and that doesn't cripple me with incompatibilities, I'll be first
in line to buy it adn throw out my MS OS.

"Bill Van Dyk" wrote ...
Firewire worked fabulously for many years before USB
finally became at all functional. The only reason USB
even remained in the market is because of the dominant
position of Wintel, which is able to shove deficient and
defective technologies down our throats. Now, users say,
what's the problem-- USB works fine! Yes, now it finally
does.

As a hardware designer, I can assure you that where IEEE
1394 is great for a few bus devices running high rates, USB
is much better for multiple low- to moderate-rate devices.

If IEEE 1394 were the ultimate all-purpose bus, why was
Apple, inventor of Firewire (IEEE 1394) one of the very
first to use USB for keyboards and mice? (Even before
"Wintel" IIRC)

By preventing real competition, Intel and Windows
were able to finally correct the deficiencies in USB
without losing any customers.

LOL! They don't sell Apple on your planet? :-)

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message ...
"Bill Van Dyk" wrote ...
Firewire worked fabulously for many years before USB
finally became at all functional. The only reason USB
even remained in the market is because of the dominant
position of Wintel, which is able to shove deficient and
defective technologies down our throats. Now, users say,
what's the problem-- USB works fine! Yes, now it finally
does.

As a hardware designer, I can assure you that where IEEE
1394 is great for a few bus devices running high rates, USB
is much better for multiple low- to moderate-rate devices.

FireWire (AKA IEEE 1394a or Sony iLink) was never meant to
serve low-speed devices such as a keyboard or mouse. It's
also a more expensive technology to implement.

If IEEE 1394 were the ultimate all-purpose bus, why was
Apple, inventor of Firewire (IEEE 1394) one of the very
first to use USB for keyboards and mice? (Even before
"Wintel" IIRC)

Apple has always had a more "coherent" plan. That - and
there aren't a half-dozen motherboard manufacturers who
are competing on price.

The other thing is that USB 2.0 has some serious compatability
issues with high-speed mode. I can't get my 2.0 hub to
connect to my 2.0 card, although it works fine out of my
1.1 ports. However - that would defeat the purpose wouldn't
it?

By preventing real competition, Intel and Windows
were able to finally correct the deficiencies in USB
without losing any customers.

LOL! They don't sell Apple on your planet? :-)

"y_p_w" wrote in message
om...
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Bill Van Dyk" wrote ...
Firewire worked fabulously for many years before USB
finally became at all functional. The only reason USB
even remained in the market is because of the dominant
position of Wintel, which is able to shove deficient and
defective technologies down our throats. Now, users say,
what's the problem-- USB works fine! Yes, now it finally
does.

As a hardware designer, I can assure you that where IEEE
1394 is great for a few bus devices running high rates, USB
is much better for multiple low- to moderate-rate devices.

FireWire (AKA IEEE 1394a or Sony iLink) was never meant to
serve low-speed devices such as a keyboard or mouse. It's
also a more expensive technology to implement.

Right. The price difference isn't all that significant on a $1000
camcorder, but it sure is on a $10 mouse (where also the speed is totally
overkill)! A low-cost serial bus technology will always have a place as
long as their are cheap peripherals that need to be connected to the PC
(e.g. mice, keyboards, even those really cheap memory card readers). We've
almost always had at least 2 different connections available, a "cheap slow"
one and a "expensive fast" one. It used to be serial and SCSI. Now it is
USB and 1394.

On 5-Dec-2003, "Jon Harris" wrote:

FireWire (AKA IEEE 1394a or Sony iLink) was never meant to
serve low-speed devices such as a keyboard or mouse. It's
also a more expensive technology to implement.

Right. The price difference isn't all that significant on a $1000
camcorder, but it sure is on a $10 mouse (where also the speed is totally
overkill)! A low-cost serial bus technology will always have a place as
long as their are cheap peripherals that need to be connected to the PC
(e.g. mice, keyboards, even those really cheap memory card readers). We've
almost always had at least 2 different connections available, a "cheap slow"
one and a "expensive fast" one. It used to be serial and SCSI. Now it is
USB and 1394.

I thought that Apple had a design for a real cheap, real slow connector designed
for stuff such as keyboards when they were working on Firewire. I suppose USB
replaced it.

"y_p_w" wrote in message
om...
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...

Apple has always had a more "coherent" plan. That - and
there aren't a half-dozen motherboard manufacturers who
are competing on price.

Which is one of the main reasons that PC's have such a large market share.
If Apple had licensed its technology, instead of keeping it for themselves,
I think Macs would be the standard. And Steve Jobs would be in the position
Bill Gates is in today.

In article ,
says...
"y_p_w" wrote in message
om...
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...

Apple has always had a more "coherent" plan. That - and
there aren't a half-dozen motherboard manufacturers who
are competing on price.

Which is one of the main reasons that PC's have such a large market share.
If Apple had licensed its technology, instead of keeping it for themselves,
I think Macs would be the standard. And Steve Jobs would be in the position
Bill Gates is in today.




I think Jobs would also have to do a little extra back stabing to outdo
Billy boy. Apple's whole selling point is that since they make the
software and the hardware, there are no conflicts. What version is
MacOs at now? 18.265? I hear they almost have it right.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia
http://www.ramsays-online.com