Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

In article op.0e9tvxvmwdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:

Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

yes, since laptop drives don't use 12v.

On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 19:10:53 -0000, nospam wrote:

In article op.0e9tvxvmwdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:

Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

yes, since laptop drives don't use 12v.

I take it this is true of all 2.5" drives, eg. SSDs?

Oh well, the laptop in question now has an external supply to power the desktop hard disk I needed to use it with. There's maybe 12V somewhere inside the laptop, but I couldn't be bothered finding out where or making a hole in the case to access it. I thought there was a good chance it might not have any 12V, it might be the 19V from the power brick gets converted to 5V, 3.3V, 1V etc for the components.

Connecting an external graphics card will be interesting....

In article op.0e9w9oyowdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:

Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

yes, since laptop drives don't use 12v.

I take it this is true of all 2.5" drives, eg. SSDs?

yes.

Oh well, the laptop in question now has an external supply to power the
desktop hard disk I needed to use it with. There's maybe 12V somewhere
inside the laptop, but I couldn't be bothered finding out where or making a
hole in the case to access it. I thought there was a good chance it might
not have any 12V, it might be the 19V from the power brick gets converted to
5V, 3.3V, 1V etc for the components.

external 3.5" drives must be self-powered.
external 2.5" drives can be either bus-powered or self-powered.

Connecting an external graphics card will be interesting....

not really. just some cables.

On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 20:27:04 -0000, nospam wrote:

In article op.0e9w9oyowdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:

Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

yes, since laptop drives don't use 12v.

I take it this is true of all 2.5" drives, eg. SSDs?

yes.

Oh well, the laptop in question now has an external supply to power the
desktop hard disk I needed to use it with. There's maybe 12V somewhere
inside the laptop, but I couldn't be bothered finding out where or making a
hole in the case to access it. I thought there was a good chance it might
not have any 12V, it might be the 19V from the power brick gets converted to
5V, 3.3V, 1V etc for the components.

external 3.5" drives must be self-powered.
external 2.5" drives can be either bus-powered or self-powered.

Why must 3.5" drives be self powered? The caddy could take the 5V from USB and convert it up to 12V.

Connecting an external graphics card will be interesting....

not really. just some cables.

And power injections. Graphics cards like 12V.

I'm a gonna try a multiplexer on the PCIE bus and see if I can connect more than one.

On 31/01/2020 21.55, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 20:27:04 -0000, nospam wrote:

In article op.0e9w9oyowdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:

Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

yes, since laptop drives don't use 12v.

I take it this is true of all 2.5" drives, eg. SSDs?

yes.

Oh well, the laptop in question now has an external supply to power the
desktop hard disk I needed to use it with.* There's maybe 12V somewhere
inside the laptop, but I couldn't be bothered finding out where or
making a
hole in the case to access it.* I thought there was a good chance it
might
not have any 12V, it might be the 19V from the power brick gets
converted to
5V, 3.3V, 1V etc for the components.

external 3.5" drives must be self-powered.
external 2.5" drives can be either bus-powered or self-powered.

Why must 3.5" drives be self powered?* The caddy could take the 5V from
USB and convert it up to 12V.

Not enough amperage available.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

In article op.0e9y11jvwdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:


Oh well, the laptop in question now has an external supply to power the
desktop hard disk I needed to use it with. There's maybe 12V somewhere
inside the laptop, but I couldn't be bothered finding out where or making a
hole in the case to access it. I thought there was a good chance it might
not have any 12V, it might be the 19V from the power brick gets converted
to
5V, 3.3V, 1V etc for the components.

external 3.5" drives must be self-powered.
external 2.5" drives can be either bus-powered or self-powered.

Why must 3.5" drives be self powered? The caddy could take the 5V from USB
and convert it up to 12V.

3.5" drives need more current than a usb port can provide.

On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 21:35:04 -0000, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 31/01/2020 21.55, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 20:27:04 -0000, nospam wrote:

In article op.0e9w9oyowdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:

Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

yes, since laptop drives don't use 12v.

I take it this is true of all 2.5" drives, eg. SSDs?

yes.

Oh well, the laptop in question now has an external supply to power the
desktop hard disk I needed to use it with. There's maybe 12V somewhere
inside the laptop, but I couldn't be bothered finding out where or
making a
hole in the case to access it. I thought there was a good chance it
might
not have any 12V, it might be the 19V from the power brick gets
converted to
5V, 3.3V, 1V etc for the components.

external 3.5" drives must be self-powered.
external 2.5" drives can be either bus-powered or self-powered.

Why must 3.5" drives be self powered? The caddy could take the 5V from
USB and convert it up to 12V.

Not enough amperage available.

Depends on the drive and the version of USB. Some USB can give 20 volts at 5 amps.

On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 21:37:48 -0000, nospam wrote:

In article op.0e9y11jvwdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:


Oh well, the laptop in question now has an external supply to power the
desktop hard disk I needed to use it with. There's maybe 12V somewhere
inside the laptop, but I couldn't be bothered finding out where or making a
hole in the case to access it. I thought there was a good chance it might
not have any 12V, it might be the 19V from the power brick gets converted
to
5V, 3.3V, 1V etc for the components.

external 3.5" drives must be self-powered.
external 2.5" drives can be either bus-powered or self-powered.

Why must 3.5" drives be self powered? The caddy could take the 5V from USB
and convert it up to 12V.

3.5" drives need more current than a usb port can provide.

I've seen a drive with two USB plugs for that very reason.

In article op.0e918e1rwdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:



Why must 3.5" drives be self powered? The caddy could take the 5V from USB
and convert it up to 12V.

3.5" drives need more current than a usb port can provide.

I've seen a drive with two USB plugs for that very reason.

that's not the reason.

the y-cables are for bus-powered laptop drives and standard usb ports,
which can source up to 500ma. by using a y-cable to connect two usb
ports, the drive can theoretically get 1000ma, or 1a, enough to spin it
up (idle doesn't need as much).

due to the popularity of bus-powered laptop drives and people wanting
to charge smartphones, tablets and other devices, usb ports began to
source more power than they were required to, as much as 2 amps,
eliminating the need for a y-cable (which was never a good idea to
begin with).

even if the port sources 5v!2a (which is not guaranteed on all
computers), it's still not enough to spin up a 3.5" drive

usb-c can source more power, but that's not widespread, yet.

On 31/01/2020 22:03, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 21:35:04 -0000, Carlos E.R.
wrote:

On 31/01/2020 21.55, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 20:27:04 -0000, nospam
wrote:

In article op.0e9w9oyowdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:

Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

yes, since laptop drives don't use 12v.

I take it this is true of all 2.5" drives, eg. SSDs?

yes.

Oh well, the laptop in question now has an external supply to power
the
desktop hard disk I needed to use it with.* There's maybe 12V
somewhere
inside the laptop, but I couldn't be bothered finding out where or
making a
hole in the case to access it.* I thought there was a good chance it
might
not have any 12V, it might be the 19V from the power brick gets
converted to
5V, 3.3V, 1V etc for the components.

external 3.5" drives must be self-powered.
external 2.5" drives can be either bus-powered or self-powered.

Why must 3.5" drives be self powered?* The caddy could take the 5V from
USB and convert it up to 12V.

Not enough amperage available.

Depends on the drive and the version of USB.* Some USB can give 20 volts
at 5 amps.

You are 100% correct, no matter WHAT 'nospam' claims!

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/USB#/overview

Good reference material there!

HTH

Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 21:35:04 -0000, Carlos E.R.
wrote:

Not enough amperage available.

Depends on the drive and the version of USB. Some USB can give 20 volts
at 5 amps.

The table here looks to be split into two pieces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#Power

Low-power device 100 mA 5 V 0.50 W
Low-power SuperSpeed (USB 3.0) device 150 mA 5 V 0.75 W
High-power device 500 mA 5 V 2.5 W
High-power SuperSpeed (USB 3.0) device 900 mA 5 V 4.5 W
Multi-lane SuperSpeed (USB 3.2 Gen x2) 1.5 A 5 V 7.5 W

.... Battery charging or laptop powering solutions +
|
v

Power Delivery 1.0 Micro-USB 3 A 20 V 60 W
Power Delivery 1.0 Type-A/B 5 A 20 V 100 W
Power Delivery 2.0/3.0 Type-C 5 A 20 V 100 W

There is one description of a "powering and data" solution
in the text below the table, but it involves multiple
connectors. I guess that's a win of some sort.

The way I looked at this was, if the PD spec was going to
be thick and incomprehensible, without a "rationale" section
copied by the media for our consumption, I'd just wait until
some fool built one for sale as proof the capability was there.

If you think that's bad, look at ESATAp, where there's no spec.
There are two "ear" pins and some flavor of connector has USB
pins on it as well. There might be four different connectors
involved (if someone was counting). It's because of this mess,
that my one good computer store carries *zero* ESATA cables,
and has a whole wall full of SATA cables.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA#eSATAp

Paul

In article op.0e94shobwdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:

Why must 3.5" drives be self powered? The caddy could take the 5V from
USB
and convert it up to 12V.

3.5" drives need more current than a usb port can provide.

I've seen a drive with two USB plugs for that very reason.

that's not the reason.

the y-cables are for bus-powered laptop drives and standard usb ports,
which can source up to 500ma. by using a y-cable to connect two usb
ports, the drive can theoretically get 1000ma, or 1a, enough to spin it
up (idle doesn't need as much).

You're talking about USB 1 for some reason.

nope. usb 2, not that it matters since both have the same power specs.

No machine made in the last
decade is limited to 500mA per port.

some still do, although not many.

due to the popularity of bus-powered laptop drives and people wanting
to charge smartphones, tablets and other devices, usb ports began to
source more power than they were required to, as much as 2 amps,
eliminating the need for a y-cable (which was never a good idea to
begin with).

It worked perfectly, why do you say it was a bad idea?

it doesn't work perfectly in every case, it's non-compliant with the
usb spec and it's basically a hack that risks potential damage to the
host and peripheral.

even if the port sources 5v!2a (which is not guaranteed on all
computers), it's still not enough to spin up a 3.5" drive

A 12 year old desktop HDD (3.5") that I have lying on my desk (the one I
plugged into the offending laptop) uses 0.5A @ 12V and 0.45A at 5V, this
equates to 8.25W, or less than the 5Vx2A = 10W that you just specified. And
that's an old and presumably inefficient drive.

10w is not guaranteed on all hosts. most can source 1a (5w), however,
that too is also not guaranteed.

your specs sound like idle power, not maximum power draw, in particular
spinning up the drive, which may need 20w or more, and if there is not
enough power to spin up the drive, it won't be particularly useful.

drive makers do not want to deal with compatibility issues, especially
when it comes to potential data loss.

you also have only 5v from a usb port, and boosting it to 12v would
incur losses, so even in an ideal situation, you still won't have 10w.

tl;dr 3.5" drives are not bus-powered.

some specs-

western digital green, a very popular drive, ranges from needing 1.2a @
12v for 500 gb up to 1.75a for 4tb, and that's just for the mechanism,
not the bridge.
http://products.wdc.com/library/SpecSheet/ENG/2879-771438.pdf

seagate skyhawk needs 1.8-2a @12v to spin-up the drive, depending on
capacity, or about 22-24 watts.
https://www.seagate.com/www-content/...wk-3-5-hddDS19
02-7-1711US-en_US.pdf

usb-c can source more power, but that's not widespread, yet.

I have one on my two year old desktop. It's a red socket.

red is a sleep/charge usb-a port, which remains powered if the computer
is in sleep/standby and may also source more current than the other usb
ports since it's intended for charging.

usb-c is an entirely different connector and does not need a colour.

usb-c on the left, usb-a on the right:
https://s.yimg.com/aah/pchcables/3-f...en-1-type-c-ma
le-to-type-a-male-cable-5gbps-2a-4.png

On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 23:40:31 -0000, David wrote:

On 31/01/2020 22:03, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 21:35:04 -0000, Carlos E.R.
wrote:

On 31/01/2020 21.55, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 20:27:04 -0000, nospam
wrote:

In article op.0e9w9oyowdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:

Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

yes, since laptop drives don't use 12v.

I take it this is true of all 2.5" drives, eg. SSDs?

yes.

Oh well, the laptop in question now has an external supply to power
the
desktop hard disk I needed to use it with. There's maybe 12V
somewhere
inside the laptop, but I couldn't be bothered finding out where or
making a
hole in the case to access it. I thought there was a good chance it
might
not have any 12V, it might be the 19V from the power brick gets
converted to
5V, 3.3V, 1V etc for the components.

external 3.5" drives must be self-powered.
external 2.5" drives can be either bus-powered or self-powered.

Why must 3.5" drives be self powered? The caddy could take the 5V from
USB and convert it up to 12V.

Not enough amperage available.

Depends on the drive and the version of USB. Some USB can give 20 volts
at 5 amps.

You are 100% correct, no matter WHAT 'nospam' claims!

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/USB#/overview

Good reference material there!

HTH

Nospam is Rod Speed, an Aussie. They're a bit backwards over there.

On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 23:58:11 -0000, Paul wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 21:35:04 -0000, Carlos E.R.
wrote:

Not enough amperage available.

Depends on the drive and the version of USB. Some USB can give 20 volts
at 5 amps.

The table here looks to be split into two pieces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#Power

Low-power device 100 mA 5 V 0.50 W
Low-power SuperSpeed (USB 3.0) device 150 mA 5 V 0.75 W
High-power device 500 mA 5 V 2.5 W
High-power SuperSpeed (USB 3.0) device 900 mA 5 V 4.5 W
Multi-lane SuperSpeed (USB 3.2 Gen x2) 1.5 A 5 V 7.5 W

... Battery charging or laptop powering solutions +
|
v

Power Delivery 1.0 Micro-USB 3 A 20 V 60 W
Power Delivery 1.0 Type-A/B 5 A 20 V 100 W
Power Delivery 2.0/3.0 Type-C 5 A 20 V 100 W

There is one description of a "powering and data" solution
in the text below the table, but it involves multiple
connectors. I guess that's a win of some sort.

Are you saying I can't build a device that will take data and full power at once?! That's crazy.

The way I looked at this was, if the PD spec was going to
be thick and incomprehensible, without a "rationale" section
copied by the media for our consumption, I'd just wait until
some fool built one for sale as proof the capability was there.

If you think that's bad, look at ESATAp, where there's no spec.
There are two "ear" pins and some flavor of connector has USB
pins on it as well. There might be four different connectors
involved (if someone was counting). It's because of this mess,
that my one good computer store carries *zero* ESATA cables,
and has a whole wall full of SATA cables.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA#eSATAp

Paul

I tried ESATA once, it just wouldn't recognise any drive at all.