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Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?



 
 
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  #121  
Old February 17th 17, 05:23 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mayayana
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Posts: 2,620
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

"Savageduck" wrote

| He may be baiting. I don't know. But it was you
| who insisted on arguing about Mac programs in
| a discussion about Windows software.
|
| I didn't argue. He made the challenge regarding "freeware" which would
| do the job, and I responded with the free application I use, which does
| all that he asked of it. rec.photo.digital is where he has initiated
| this thread, and to the best of my knowledge r.p.d. is not an exclusive
| Windows NG.

No, but the thread was about Windows freeware.
You had no reason to take part at all. But you
clearly get irritated by any Windows talk. What if
you were discussing a Mac program and someone
said, "You should buy a Windows computer. Then
you can use the program I use." I don't think you'd
regard that as helpful.

I don't know about the history here. Maybe Stijn
is the wiseguy you say he is. Nevetheless, the
discussion was potentially useful to anyone on
Windows who's interested in software options,
regardless of his motives. In particular, I think the
mistake of editing JPGs is a very common one, so
it's worthwhile getting info out there about the
problems with that.


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  #122  
Old February 17th 17, 06:00 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
nospam
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Posts: 311
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

In article , Mayayana
wrote:


| He may be baiting. I don't know. But it was you
| who insisted on arguing about Mac programs in
| a discussion about Windows software.
|
| I didn't argue. He made the challenge regarding "freeware" which would
| do the job, and I responded with the free application I use, which does
| all that he asked of it. rec.photo.digital is where he has initiated
| this thread, and to the best of my knowledge r.p.d. is not an exclusive
| Windows NG.

No, but the thread was about Windows freeware.
You had no reason to take part at all. But you
clearly get irritated by any Windows talk. What if
you were discussing a Mac program and someone
said, "You should buy a Windows computer. Then
you can use the program I use." I don't think you'd
regard that as helpful.


nobody told anyone to buy a new computer.

and in the event someone suggested windows software to a mac owner,
they would not need to buy a new computer because a mac can run all
windows software directly.

I don't know about the history here. Maybe Stijn
is the wiseguy you say he is. Nevetheless, the
discussion was potentially useful to anyone on
Windows who's interested in software options,
regardless of his motives. In particular, I think the
mistake of editing JPGs is a very common one, so
it's worthwhile getting info out there about the
problems with that.


it's also overblown. most people won't notice a difference,
particularly for images posted to a mailing list.
  #123  
Old February 17th 17, 06:00 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 311
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

In article , Mayayana
wrote:


| "Adding canvas" would be accomplished by
| painting a bitmap onto a second larger bitmap, just
| because that's how Windows graphics works.
|
| If you do it that way it is a bit of a kludge. Bitmap is a very old
| Windows way of thinking. There are far simpler and efficient ways of
| doing what you have described.
|

You're doing it that way, too. You just don't
know it. (RAW is more complicated, in ways
I don't fully understand, but once you get into
raster graphics it's all the same.)

Now that I know what's meant by
canvas I don't see any problem with it. I'm
curious how I never noticed "canvas" before.
But it's just a GUI convention. It's not functionality.

I don't see any inconvenience with copy/paste
onto a new image. That makes it easy for me to
move around one or more images on a larger
background and operate on various layers until I'm
ready to merge them. That's a more flexible method
than canvas. If I want a text area I'll usually just
paint on a rectangle. But canvas seems fine for
adding a regular, defined border.

What you're doing with "canvas" is using a
conceptual device to imagine working on a picture
that's on a background plate. You then swap out
for a bigger background plate when desired.

That's actually an unnecessary device if you
think in terms of what the image really is and let
go of the irrelevant, concrete-world limitations
like easels and stretched canvas over a frame.

Raster graphics deals in rectangular bitmaps,
which are arrays of byte values defining pixels, with
the display of those pixels defined by width, height,
color-depth and orientation specs included with the
byte array. Thus, a 24-bit bitmap starting at upper
left with a size of 200x100 will mean that to create
the image the bytes are read in groups of 3 to
light 200 pixels across the screen. 600 bytes for
one line of pixels. Then the next line is read out.
It always gets down to simple numbers at some
point when you're using computers. (I don't know
whether Apple uses the term bitmap, but they're
doing it the same way if they're doing raster graphics.)

Before it's
painted to the screen it's just that byte array.
When you enlarge your canvas, what goes on
behind the scenes is that the system defines a
second device-independent bitmap and then paints
your existing bitmap onto it once you decide where
in the image you want your original pasted and
what color you want the background. It has
nothing to do with Windows and nothing to
do with any "old way of thinking". Look up raster
graphics. The same is true of things like brightening,
color pencil plugins, borders, etc. It's all mathematical
formulae applied to an array of byte values that
represent a pixel grid. So if you enlarge your
canvas what actually happens is that your byte
array gets enlarged and rebuilt. The software might
do that directly, or more likely it will do it by
defining a second bitmap and using system API to
paint one to the other, then retrieve the resulting
byte array. In that case the software is letting the
system do the grunt work. Either way, what goes
on underneath hasn't changed. Only the GUI changes.


mostly correct, but entirely irrelevant.

none of that helps in making better photos.

That's the trouble with only using Apple tools.
You end up thinking that a microwave is the way
cooking happens and when someone talks about
making spaghetti sauce from scratch on their stove
you think they're either ignorant or lying.


you were doing reasonably well up until that.
  #124  
Old February 17th 17, 07:17 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
PeterN[_2_]
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Posts: 5
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On 2/16/2017 10:16 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

nonsense. it's incredibly easy to create arrows and quite a bit more.
as usual, you failed and are blaming others.

view the annotate menu:
https://www.cisdem.com/resource/atta...te-a-pdf-mac-p
review.jpg

or directly from the toolbar:
http://tidbits.com/resources/2016-04/Shapes-button.png
http://tidbits.com/resources/2016-04/Preview-wild-text.png
http://tidbits.com/resources/2016-04/Shape-color.png

it doesn't get any easier than that.

All decent editing apps have a GUI for each of the critical tasks:
0. Cropping area
1. Adding canvas and text
2. Adding bounding boxes
3. Adding curved and straight arrows

preview does all that, with the exception of curved arrows, a very
minor issue.


It's not a minor issue at all if you want curved arrows.


which few people do, but it can do it, so it doesn't matter.



The above is typical nospam. "preview does all that, with the exception
of curved arrows,...."

Very next reply: " but it can do it, so it doesn't matter."

You contradict yourself, without expressly admitting that you did, or
explaining.





--
PeterN
  #125  
Old February 17th 17, 07:35 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 311
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

In article , PeterN
wrote:


All decent editing apps have a GUI for each of the critical tasks:
0. Cropping area
1. Adding canvas and text
2. Adding bounding boxes
3. Adding curved and straight arrows

preview does all that, with the exception of curved arrows, a very
minor issue.

It's not a minor issue at all if you want curved arrows.


which few people do, but it can do it, so it doesn't matter.



The above is typical nospam. "preview does all that, with the exception
of curved arrows,...."

Very next reply: " but it can do it, so it doesn't matter."

You contradict yourself, without expressly admitting that you did, or
explaining.


what's to explain? i thought it didn't do curved arrows, then i tried
it and saw that it could, so i corrected what i wrote a few minutes
later.

curved arrows is also not a common thing to do, so it really doesn't
matter for nearly everyone. just how often do you see people annotating
documents with *curved* arrows anyway? not often, if ever.

nevertheless, it can do curved arrows it doesn't matter. there is no
issue with using it to annotate.

as usual, you're arguing just to argue, and this time when there's
absolutely nothing to argue about. that's just ****ed up.
  #126  
Old February 18th 17, 08:26 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Sandman
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Posts: 7
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

In article , Tony Cooper wrote:

Sure. I give non-native speakers of English a free pass*


Hehe

*Unless they brag about how good their English is.


Or, as in my case, if they point out how bad your English is

--
Sandman
  #127  
Old Today, 02:41 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
PeterN[_3_]
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Posts: 1
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On 2/16/2017 2:48 PM, Stijn De Jong wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 13:02:48 -0500, PeterN wrote:

I have never used the freeware programs for processing and cannot
compare them to PS. I have changed the canvas size many times in PS,
and find it trivial to extend the canvas, on any side. As in many
other objectives, there are several methods to extend the canvas. For
my purposes a simple resize works just fine.


I don't generally work on photographs so much as screenshots, so the basic
freeware combination of Irfanview for what it does best, and Paint.NET for
what it does best, is what I use mostly.

Since I don't use the payware stuff you use, I can't say the next sentence
with certain assurances; but having used freebie editing programs for
decades, I can say with reasonable confidence the following two sentences:

1. Nothing on Windows is faster (nor simpler) than Irfanview, for viewing
images, setting up basic batch processing of those images, and for cropping
and adding a set-sized canvas to all the photos to be batch resized,
converted and renamed.

Howeever, Irfanview positively sucks in the things that Paint.NET excels
in.

2. Nothing on Windows is both easier for a suite of basic curved arrows
than the way the arrow features of Paint.NET was designed. The feature to
add captions is pretty good, as is the feature that circles things with
boxes and elipses, but the real beauty of Paint.NET is how it does
arrowing.

The portable editor with the most promise, is Pinta:
http://pinta.en.softonic.com/mac
In my humble opinion, any engineers who are designing a new paint program,
should first try out these two sets of features for basic screenshot
editing. They use the fewest steps possible and cover a wide range of basic
options.

As an example of how to add text wrong, with Paint.NET you just click once
and start typing. If you want to change fonts or colors or position, you
can do that at any time, but it's just point and type to start. In many
other programs, you have to draw a bounding box first, which is just crazy
to add an unnecessary step that adds no initial value.

Likewise, for arrowing, in Paint.NET you just click on the start point
(which sets the direction) and then you click on the ending point. The line
you drew is "alive" in that you can change the shape, curves, width, color,
dottedness, arrows, endshapes, etc., at any time.

That's how adding text and arrowing should work, IMHO.
Any other way is too many unnecessary steps, AFAIK.


Our response has nothing to do with the expression: "canvas size." My
canvas size could be 12x18," with the image size 2x3." I would simply
have a lot of blank canvas. That you use it only for screen shots, is
irrelevant to the concept.


--
PeterN
 




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