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#241
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Goodbye Linux: Why am ditching linux and going back to Windows 10
[snip]
Yes, but that's not the scenario we (Bud Frede, I, Mark Lloyd) are discussing (which is alleged loss of *reading* capability after some "not precisely defined time limit"). The DRM may not be so bad if you are RENTING the materials (they still belong to someone else in both cases). [snip] -- 62 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for 1 day). Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ "Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted." |
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#242
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Goodbye Linux: Why am ditching linux and going back to Windows 10
On 10/23/19 1:22 PM, Melzzzzz wrote:
On 2019-10-23, Dan Purgert wrote: Ken Springer wrote: On 10/23/19 6:52 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: Ask the users in Venezuela. They can not access any Adobe service, which renders everything they paid for useless crap. In Venezuela, could it be Maduro's government? Well, the US government has placed some sanction or other on them, which means Adobe revoked all access to all license holders who happen to be in Venezuela. https://www.pcmag.com/news/371194/ad...o-us-sanctions Which means, don't relie on cloud services... Maybe OK for backup, but make sure YOU have copies too. -- 62 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for 1 day). Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ "Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted." |
#243
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Goodbye Linux: Why am ditching linux and going back to Windows 10
On 24/10/2019 20.12, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote: On 23/10/2019 21.25, Frank Slootweg wrote: Carlos E.R. wrote: On 23/10/2019 19.53, Frank Slootweg wrote: Carlos E.R. wrote: On 23/10/2019 16.57, Frank Slootweg wrote: Carlos E.R. wrote: On 23/10/2019 14.08, Frank Slootweg wrote: Mark Lloyd wrote: On 10/20/19 1:34 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote: Mark Lloyd wrote: On 10/19/19 1:21 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote: [snip] [1] Only in a year or so, I lost - access to - the very first DRMed song I purchased! :-( So it wasn't a real purchase (you didn't get the thing, you were just allowed to use it temporarily). Yes, in the part you snipped, I explained that a 'purchase' of DRMed material is actually a license to use ("You bought a license to use it"). So it's indeed "just allowed to use it", but it's not "temporarily", because - as I said - there's no time limit ("Unlike renting, there is no time limit."). It is temporarily. It's just that the time limit is not precisely defined. Pray tell, by which conditions, events, whatever would this alleged 'time limit' expire? The only scenario I can think of is 1) the content provider goes belly up *and* 2) all your eReaders go belly up *and* Adobe Digital Editions ceases to exist/function/whatever. Not very likely. Ask the users in Venezuela. They can not access any Adobe service, which renders everything they paid for useless crap. Note that we're talking about alleged loss of *reading* capability after some "not precisely defined time limit". "They can not access any Adobe service" is only *one* of the *three* AND conditions I mentioned. Their eReaders should continue to work just fine (because they are already Authorized by ADE and the epubs are already copied to the device). I'm not sure of that. The DRM has to be validated each time such a file is copied or moved. Yes, but that's not the scenario we (Bud Frede, I, Mark Lloyd) are discussing (which is alleged loss of *reading* capability after some "not precisely defined time limit"). It is feasible Adobe sends a signal to deauthorize all those ebooks. Theoretically Adobe could perhaps do that, but I doubt that would be legal in any somewhat civilized country. Well, I had a book or two remotely deleted on my Kobo, which is the same thing. I suppose the book(s) will not work in ADE either or were also deleted. I have not looked that carefully (or I have forgotten). Do you know 'who' - i.e. Kobo, Adobe, other - deleted those books? And how, i.e. was your Kobo connected to their servers at the time)? Kobo. The next time I synced the reader, the actual action was performed. Syncing is needed to download a new book. I see. Thanks for the info. Note that syncing is not always needed to 'download' a new book. Manual copying of the ADE-generated epub file to the ereader's file system works as well. Ah! I see. So my point is that if the ereader is never connected to any server/ program (Kobo, Adobe, ADE, etc.), those servers/programs *cannot* delete anything. I see your system now. You do the download with ADE, then transfer to the Kobo; as the Kobo is an authorized device in the list, its own, er, adobe authorizer decodes and opens the book. As it is not connected to internet, it doesn't learn if the book was deauthorized. Nice! However, you lose the convenience of being able to purchase the book on the kobo store, and have it automatically downloaded to the device, you need an intermediate step. I wonder if the reverse is possible: to pick the book from the kobo device to the windows ade directory (without opening ade) and have calibre import and "open" it, for backup. I try to protect from such an action by *manually* (with for example File Explorer, *not* with ADE) copying the ADE-created .epub file to our Kobo eReader. I.e. ADE has no connection to the eReader, so how could it delete files from it? The thing is, such an ebook can not be read on the Kobo till ADE authorizes it. I have not actually tested this, but that is the theory. Maybe it works because the Kobo has an ADE license and can check on its own if you are authorized to read that book by consulting the ADE server on internet. Yes, the *ebook/epub. is authorized - to your Adobe Account - by doing an 'Add to Library' in ADE and the *ereader(s)* is/are authorized to your account as well by a one-time 'Authorize Device...' action in ADE. Yes, I see. AFAIK, the device/account authorization information is stored on the ereader itself (I am quite sure that I saw such files in the Kobo's filesystem). And - AFAIK - the ereader can then read any epub file - also new, manually copied, ones - which have been authorized to the same Adobe account. Maybe I will re-test this manual-copying bit sometime, but don't hold your breath! :-) (To make it a valid test, I would need a new (DRM-protected) ebook, which has never been in ADE's Library and has never been on the ereader.) *And* I have backup of the ADE-created .epub files, so even *if* ADE manages to delete them/some from the eReader, I can just restore the backup. Should not work, either. If the manual-copying works, restoring the backup should work as well. It works only if you remove the DRM protection, and then you backup that one. But of course all of this doesn't help Joe Average User one bit, because (s)he isn't going to take such elaborate and awkward precautions! :-( So I fail to see how that "renders everything they paid for useless crap". Because Adobe controls other things than ebooks. True. The news article Dan pointed to doesn't even mention ebooks and only talks about subscriptions, which DRM protected ebooks (normally) are not. Bottom line: The Adobe situation in Venezuela and *this* discussion are totally seperate. My point is that external situations can disable/delete/whatever your DRM books, and that those situations are not theoretical. Something that does not happen with paper books, and which makes ebooks vastly different from plain books. Very true. Joe Average User - and probably most users - is/are at the mercy of these companies (and the loons which run their governments :-(). Possibly Amazon is also affected, and other companies. Yes, I concentrated on Adobe, because that's what I have experience with. I seldom have to deal with Adobe, because the Kobo hides that part transparently. I buy a book from the kobo store, and on next sync the file is downloaded to the reader and automatically enabled by checking with some authorized server out there. The Kobo reader contains an ADE closed source thing for Linux, that does the "magic"; I mean, the authorization. Yes, I do not *have* to deal with Adobe/ADE either. I use a store (Bol.com) which is kind of a Kobo partner. But I *can* use Adobe/ADE for the protection which (I think) manual-copying gives and backup. Interesting. But bol.com doesn't seem to do English. -- Cheers, Carlos. |
#244
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Goodbye Linux: Why am ditching linux and going back to Windows 10
Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 24/10/2019 20.12, Frank Slootweg wrote: Carlos E.R. wrote: On 23/10/2019 21.25, Frank Slootweg wrote: Carlos E.R. wrote: On 23/10/2019 19.53, Frank Slootweg wrote: Carlos E.R. wrote: On 23/10/2019 16.57, Frank Slootweg wrote: Carlos E.R. wrote: On 23/10/2019 14.08, Frank Slootweg wrote: Mark Lloyd wrote: On 10/20/19 1:34 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote: Mark Lloyd wrote: On 10/19/19 1:21 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote: [snip] [1] Only in a year or so, I lost - access to - the very first DRMed song I purchased! :-( So it wasn't a real purchase (you didn't get the thing, you were just allowed to use it temporarily). Yes, in the part you snipped, I explained that a 'purchase' of DRMed material is actually a license to use ("You bought a license to use it"). So it's indeed "just allowed to use it", but it's not "temporarily", because - as I said - there's no time limit ("Unlike renting, there is no time limit."). It is temporarily. It's just that the time limit is not precisely defined. Pray tell, by which conditions, events, whatever would this alleged 'time limit' expire? The only scenario I can think of is 1) the content provider goes belly up *and* 2) all your eReaders go belly up *and* Adobe Digital Editions ceases to exist/function/whatever. Not very likely. Ask the users in Venezuela. They can not access any Adobe service, which renders everything they paid for useless crap. Note that we're talking about alleged loss of *reading* capability after some "not precisely defined time limit". "They can not access any Adobe service" is only *one* of the *three* AND conditions I mentioned. Their eReaders should continue to work just fine (because they are already Authorized by ADE and the epubs are already copied to the device). I'm not sure of that. The DRM has to be validated each time such a file is copied or moved. Yes, but that's not the scenario we (Bud Frede, I, Mark Lloyd) are discussing (which is alleged loss of *reading* capability after some "not precisely defined time limit"). It is feasible Adobe sends a signal to deauthorize all those ebooks. Theoretically Adobe could perhaps do that, but I doubt that would be legal in any somewhat civilized country. Well, I had a book or two remotely deleted on my Kobo, which is the same thing. I suppose the book(s) will not work in ADE either or were also deleted. I have not looked that carefully (or I have forgotten). Do you know 'who' - i.e. Kobo, Adobe, other - deleted those books? And how, i.e. was your Kobo connected to their servers at the time)? Kobo. The next time I synced the reader, the actual action was performed. Syncing is needed to download a new book. I see. Thanks for the info. Note that syncing is not always needed to 'download' a new book. Manual copying of the ADE-generated epub file to the ereader's file system works as well. Ah! I see. So my point is that if the ereader is never connected to any server/ program (Kobo, Adobe, ADE, etc.), those servers/programs *cannot* delete anything. I see your system now. You do the download with ADE, then transfer to the Kobo; as the Kobo is an authorized device in the list, its own, er, adobe authorizer decodes and opens the book. As it is not connected to internet, it doesn't learn if the book was deauthorized. Nice! However, you lose the convenience of being able to purchase the book on the kobo store, and have it automatically downloaded to the device, you need an intermediate step. Yes, you 'lose' that convenience and that means that for most people it would be too much of a bother. I say 'lose' in scare quotes, because you could do my trick also *after* an earlier automatic download. (That was what I actually did, because I wanted backup of our already downloaded (and read) ebooks.) BUT,AFAICT, 'someone'/'something' (Kobo, Adobe, ADE, whatever) could still deauthorize old ebooks on any subsequent WiFi connect of the Kobo ereader. It's unclear if such a deauthorization would do any actual harm, because your backup copy of the *.epub* is still unchanged and the *device* is still authorized to your Adobe account. Does the ereader store the authorization status of each .epub file? I do not think so (that's ADE's job), but I do not know for sure. I wonder if the reverse is possible: to pick the book from the kobo device to the windows ade directory (without opening ade) and have calibre import and "open" it, for backup. I did not do this exact thing, but very something similar. You can do an 'Add books' in Calibre and give it an .pub file from ADE's '\Users\user\Documents\My Digital Editions' folder. It will be added to Calibre's Library, but you cannot 'View'/read it, because Calibre cannot view DRM-protected ebooks: "This book is DRMed This book is locked by DRM. To learn more about DRM and why you cannot read or convert this book in calibre, click here." So, for backup, you might just as well backup ADE's 'My Digital Editions' folder to some other place, i.e. copy all .epubs, but do not delete any files from the destination, which have been deleted from the source. I try to protect from such an action by *manually* (with for example File Explorer, *not* with ADE) copying the ADE-created .epub file to our Kobo eReader. I.e. ADE has no connection to the eReader, so how could it delete files from it? The thing is, such an ebook can not be read on the Kobo till ADE authorizes it. I have not actually tested this, but that is the theory. Maybe it works because the Kobo has an ADE license and can check on its own if you are authorized to read that book by consulting the ADE server on internet. Yes, the *ebook/epub. is authorized - to your Adobe Account - by doing an 'Add to Library' in ADE and the *ereader(s)* is/are authorized to your account as well by a one-time 'Authorize Device...' action in ADE. Yes, I see. AFAIK, the device/account authorization information is stored on the ereader itself (I am quite sure that I saw such files in the Kobo's filesystem). And - AFAIK - the ereader can then read any epub file - also new, manually copied, ones - which have been authorized to the same Adobe account. Maybe I will re-test this manual-copying bit sometime, but don't hold your breath! :-) (To make it a valid test, I would need a new (DRM-protected) ebook, which has never been in ADE's Library and has never been on the ereader.) *And* I have backup of the ADE-created .epub files, so even *if* ADE manages to delete them/some from the eReader, I can just restore the backup. Should not work, either. If the manual-copying works, restoring the backup should work as well. It works only if you remove the DRM protection, and then you backup that one. But of course all of this doesn't help Joe Average User one bit, because (s)he isn't going to take such elaborate and awkward precautions! :-( So I fail to see how that "renders everything they paid for useless crap". Because Adobe controls other things than ebooks. True. The news article Dan pointed to doesn't even mention ebooks and only talks about subscriptions, which DRM protected ebooks (normally) are not. Bottom line: The Adobe situation in Venezuela and *this* discussion are totally seperate. My point is that external situations can disable/delete/whatever your DRM books, and that those situations are not theoretical. Something that does not happen with paper books, and which makes ebooks vastly different from plain books. Very true. Joe Average User - and probably most users - is/are at the mercy of these companies (and the loons which run their governments :-(). Possibly Amazon is also affected, and other companies. Yes, I concentrated on Adobe, because that's what I have experience with. I seldom have to deal with Adobe, because the Kobo hides that part transparently. I buy a book from the kobo store, and on next sync the file is downloaded to the reader and automatically enabled by checking with some authorized server out there. The Kobo reader contains an ADE closed source thing for Linux, that does the "magic"; I mean, the authorization. Yes, I do not *have* to deal with Adobe/ADE either. I use a store (Bol.com) which is kind of a Kobo partner. But I *can* use Adobe/ADE for the protection which (I think) manual-copying gives and backup. Interesting. But bol.com doesn't seem to do English. Yes, Bol.com is a 'local' Dutch conglomorate (sp?) of shops. Basically the Dutch Amazon (IIRC, Bol.com predates Amazon). |
#245
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Goodbye Linux: Why am ditching linux and going back to Windows 10
On 25/10/2019 20.20, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote: On 24/10/2019 20.12, Frank Slootweg wrote: Carlos E.R. wrote: On 23/10/2019 21.25, Frank Slootweg wrote: Carlos E.R. wrote: On 23/10/2019 19.53, Frank Slootweg wrote: Carlos E.R. wrote: On 23/10/2019 16.57, Frank Slootweg wrote: Carlos E.R. wrote: On 23/10/2019 14.08, Frank Slootweg wrote: Mark Lloyd wrote: On 10/20/19 1:34 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote: Mark Lloyd wrote: On 10/19/19 1:21 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote: [snip] [1] Only in a year or so, I lost - access to - the very first DRMed song I purchased! :-( So it wasn't a real purchase (you didn't get the thing, you were just allowed to use it temporarily). Yes, in the part you snipped, I explained that a 'purchase' of DRMed material is actually a license to use ("You bought a license to use it"). So it's indeed "just allowed to use it", but it's not "temporarily", because - as I said - there's no time limit ("Unlike renting, there is no time limit."). It is temporarily. It's just that the time limit is not precisely defined. Pray tell, by which conditions, events, whatever would this alleged 'time limit' expire? The only scenario I can think of is 1) the content provider goes belly up *and* 2) all your eReaders go belly up *and* Adobe Digital Editions ceases to exist/function/whatever. Not very likely. Ask the users in Venezuela. They can not access any Adobe service, which renders everything they paid for useless crap. Note that we're talking about alleged loss of *reading* capability after some "not precisely defined time limit". "They can not access any Adobe service" is only *one* of the *three* AND conditions I mentioned. Their eReaders should continue to work just fine (because they are already Authorized by ADE and the epubs are already copied to the device). I'm not sure of that. The DRM has to be validated each time such a file is copied or moved. Yes, but that's not the scenario we (Bud Frede, I, Mark Lloyd) are discussing (which is alleged loss of *reading* capability after some "not precisely defined time limit"). It is feasible Adobe sends a signal to deauthorize all those ebooks. Theoretically Adobe could perhaps do that, but I doubt that would be legal in any somewhat civilized country. Well, I had a book or two remotely deleted on my Kobo, which is the same thing. I suppose the book(s) will not work in ADE either or were also deleted. I have not looked that carefully (or I have forgotten). Do you know 'who' - i.e. Kobo, Adobe, other - deleted those books? And how, i.e. was your Kobo connected to their servers at the time)? Kobo. The next time I synced the reader, the actual action was performed. Syncing is needed to download a new book. I see. Thanks for the info. Note that syncing is not always needed to 'download' a new book. Manual copying of the ADE-generated epub file to the ereader's file system works as well. Ah! I see. So my point is that if the ereader is never connected to any server/ program (Kobo, Adobe, ADE, etc.), those servers/programs *cannot* delete anything. I see your system now. You do the download with ADE, then transfer to the Kobo; as the Kobo is an authorized device in the list, its own, er, adobe authorizer decodes and opens the book. As it is not connected to internet, it doesn't learn if the book was deauthorized. Nice! However, you lose the convenience of being able to purchase the book on the kobo store, and have it automatically downloaded to the device, you need an intermediate step. Yes, you 'lose' that convenience and that means that for most people it would be too much of a bother. I say 'lose' in scare quotes, because you could do my trick also *after* an earlier automatic download. (That was what I actually did, because I wanted backup of our already downloaded (and read) ebooks.) BUT,AFAICT, 'someone'/'something' (Kobo, Adobe, ADE, whatever) could still deauthorize old ebooks on any subsequent WiFi connect of the Kobo ereader. It's unclear if such a deauthorization would do any actual harm, because your backup copy of the *.epub* is still unchanged and the *device* is still authorized to your Adobe account. Does the ereader store the authorization status of each .epub file? I do not think so (that's ADE's job), but I do not know for sure. The kobo firmware contains software licensed by Adobe. I don't know what exactly it does, but part of it is "activating" a book and decoding it, same as ADE. Otherwise, it is impossible to download via wifi directly to the reader from upstream. I wonder if the reverse is possible: to pick the book from the kobo device to the windows ade directory (without opening ade) and have calibre import and "open" it, for backup. I did not do this exact thing, but very something similar. You can do an 'Add books' in Calibre and give it an .pub file from ADE's '\Users\user\Documents\My Digital Editions' folder. It will be added to Calibre's Library, but you cannot 'View'/read it, because Calibre cannot view DRM-protected ebooks: "This book is DRMed This book is locked by DRM. To learn more about DRM and why you cannot read or convert this book in calibre, click here." You forget about the plugin ;-) So, for backup, you might just as well backup ADE's 'My Digital Editions' folder to some other place, i.e. copy all .epubs, but do not delete any files from the destination, which have been deleted from the source. I try to protect from such an action by *manually* (with for example File Explorer, *not* with ADE) copying the ADE-created .epub file to our Kobo eReader. I.e. ADE has no connection to the eReader, so how could it delete files from it? The thing is, such an ebook can not be read on the Kobo till ADE authorizes it. I have not actually tested this, but that is the theory. Maybe it works because the Kobo has an ADE license and can check on its own if you are authorized to read that book by consulting the ADE server on internet. Yes, the *ebook/epub. is authorized - to your Adobe Account - by doing an 'Add to Library' in ADE and the *ereader(s)* is/are authorized to your account as well by a one-time 'Authorize Device...' action in ADE. Yes, I see. AFAIK, the device/account authorization information is stored on the ereader itself (I am quite sure that I saw such files in the Kobo's filesystem). And - AFAIK - the ereader can then read any epub file - also new, manually copied, ones - which have been authorized to the same Adobe account. Maybe I will re-test this manual-copying bit sometime, but don't hold your breath! :-) (To make it a valid test, I would need a new (DRM-protected) ebook, which has never been in ADE's Library and has never been on the ereader.) *And* I have backup of the ADE-created .epub files, so even *if* ADE manages to delete them/some from the eReader, I can just restore the backup. Should not work, either. If the manual-copying works, restoring the backup should work as well. It works only if you remove the DRM protection, and then you backup that one. But of course all of this doesn't help Joe Average User one bit, because (s)he isn't going to take such elaborate and awkward precautions! :-( So I fail to see how that "renders everything they paid for useless crap". Because Adobe controls other things than ebooks. True. The news article Dan pointed to doesn't even mention ebooks and only talks about subscriptions, which DRM protected ebooks (normally) are not. Bottom line: The Adobe situation in Venezuela and *this* discussion are totally seperate. My point is that external situations can disable/delete/whatever your DRM books, and that those situations are not theoretical. Something that does not happen with paper books, and which makes ebooks vastly different from plain books. Very true. Joe Average User - and probably most users - is/are at the mercy of these companies (and the loons which run their governments :-(). Possibly Amazon is also affected, and other companies. Yes, I concentrated on Adobe, because that's what I have experience with. I seldom have to deal with Adobe, because the Kobo hides that part transparently. I buy a book from the kobo store, and on next sync the file is downloaded to the reader and automatically enabled by checking with some authorized server out there. The Kobo reader contains an ADE closed source thing for Linux, that does the "magic"; I mean, the authorization. Yes, I do not *have* to deal with Adobe/ADE either. I use a store (Bol.com) which is kind of a Kobo partner. But I *can* use Adobe/ADE for the protection which (I think) manual-copying gives and backup. Interesting. But bol.com doesn't seem to do English. Yes, Bol.com is a 'local' Dutch conglomorate (sp?) of shops. Basically the Dutch Amazon (IIRC, Bol.com predates Amazon). Ah. Well, yes, I buy from Kobo and others (like Baen ebooks) items in English; but those in Spanish I buy from a local place, Casa del Libro (house of the book), which sells their own device, the Tagus. I think it is theirs, there is no wikipedia article with more independent information. -- Cheers, Carlos. |
#246
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Goodbye Linux: Why am ditching linux and going back to Windows 10
Frank Slootweg wrote:
Yes, the publisher/distributor *could* revoke the license, if they think it shouldn't have been granted in the first place (for whatever reason), but that's not a normal event. “Ebooks Purchased From Microsoft Will Be Deleted This Month Because You Don't Really Own Anything Anymore” https://gizmodo.com/ebooks-purchased-from-microsoft-will-be-deleted-this-mo-1836005672 |
#247
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Goodbye Linux: Why am ditching linux and going back to Windows 10
Stephen Hall wrote:
Frank Slootweg wrote: Yes, the publisher/distributor *could* revoke the license, if they think it shouldn't have been granted in the first place (for whatever reason), but that's not a normal event. Ebooks Purchased From Microsoft Will Be Deleted This Month Because You Don't Really Own Anything Anymore https://gizmodo.com/ebooks-purchased-from-microsoft-will-be-deleted-this-mo-1836005672 Microsoft's e-book revenue was probably so dismal that they won't have to refund much. Microsoft gets into technology late, which is also true of ePub docs. 10 years after Amazon introduced Kindle (lureware to their e-book store), Microsoft decides it wants a slice of the pie and opened its own e-book store. But the slice was so tiny that Microsoft couldn't qualify the cost of operating its servers. 2 years later, Microsoft shuts down their e-book store. A few months later, Microsoft scrambles away from supporting ePub docs altogether. ePub support got yanked from Edge in the September update to Windows 10; see: https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/...date-kb4516059 Microsoft's solution? Go to their Store to get an app. Why an app (instead of a free application)? Because Microsoft gets a 5% commisions on sales of apps through their store. If I had any e-books or I get some later, I'd probably use Calibre. Not the Calibre app (which costs $1.09 which rewards a nickel to Microsoft for killing their e-book service and their epub support), but the wholly free non-adware Win32 version of Calibre. |
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