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Is Zone Alarm necessary with a DSL firewall?



 
 
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  #16  
Old November 9th 06, 04:25 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
DanS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 327
Default Is Zone Alarm necessary with a DSL firewall?

"Pappion" wrote in
:

re "may be happening many times during the on time anyway, if you have
power-saving enabled."

How can I check that, and should I have it enabled? I have XP Pro,
SP2.


In the control panel under 'Power Options'.
Ads
  #17  
Old November 9th 06, 08:13 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
Sharon F
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 480
Default Is Zone Alarm necessary with a DSL firewall?

On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 13:59:15 -0600, Pappion wrote:

I typed in 192.168.254.254 and a simple page opened to turn on the
"firewall." Does that help??


Okay, it sounds like you have a modem that includes NAT routing and a
"firewall." Firewall is not actually a correct term for this what this is.
It is not a hardware or software firewall but a type of technology that
functions very similar to a firewall.

At the very least I would also enable Windows built-in firewall (that's how
I run on my home network).

If you desire some finer granularity (control) of outbound traffic, then
don't enable the Windows firewall and install a third party software
solution such as Zone Alarm instead. In this scenario, Zone Alarm or
similar would not interfere with what your modem/router is doing.

As for not turning off the computer - I still do it. We get thunderstorms
that can knock out expensive electronic equipment in the blink of an eye
and occasionally enough wind to disrupt the power supply. Also... and this
is just personal opinion... I think it's more "earth-friendly" to not
consume power when you don't need to.

--
Sharon F
MS-MVP ~ Windows Shell/User
  #18  
Old November 10th 06, 05:37 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
DanS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 327
Default Is Zone Alarm necessary with a DSL firewall?

Sharon F wrote in
:


As for not turning off the computer - I still do it. We get
thunderstorms that can knock out expensive electronic equipment in the
blink of an eye and occasionally enough wind to disrupt the power
supply. Also... and this is just personal opinion... I think it's more
"earth-friendly" to not consume power when you don't need to.


Many people don't realize that a quality UPS, not necessarily a huge one,
just not a super-cheapy, have benefits beyond poer backup. They will
protect as a surge protector as well as act as a line 'conditioner'. You
know, like the $150 Monster surge protector/conditioners they try to sell
you when you by a flat panel TV.

You can get the same benefit from a sub-$100 (not $30) UPS. It doesn't need
to be huge, as you really only need 10 or 15 minutes worth of power. Enough
to keep you running for those short lived glitches of a minute or 2, and
that also gives you plenty of time to shutdown your computer properly,
instead of the power just dropping in the middle of extended disk access.
  #19  
Old November 10th 06, 05:44 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
Pappion
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 130
Default Is Zone Alarm necessary with a DSL firewall?

Agree with both of you, and I do have one, and went back to shutting down at
the end of my sessions (I'm a writer).
"DanS" wrote in message
. 97.142...
Sharon F wrote in
:


As for not turning off the computer - I still do it. We get
thunderstorms that can knock out expensive electronic equipment in the
blink of an eye and occasionally enough wind to disrupt the power
supply. Also... and this is just personal opinion... I think it's more
"earth-friendly" to not consume power when you don't need to.


Many people don't realize that a quality UPS, not necessarily a huge one,
just not a super-cheapy, have benefits beyond poer backup. They will
protect as a surge protector as well as act as a line 'conditioner'. You
know, like the $150 Monster surge protector/conditioners they try to sell
you when you by a flat panel TV.

You can get the same benefit from a sub-$100 (not $30) UPS. It doesn't
need
to be huge, as you really only need 10 or 15 minutes worth of power.
Enough
to keep you running for those short lived glitches of a minute or 2, and
that also gives you plenty of time to shutdown your computer properly,
instead of the power just dropping in the middle of extended disk access.



  #20  
Old November 10th 06, 06:37 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
Sharon F
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 480
Default Is Zone Alarm necessary with a DSL firewall?

DanS wrote:
Many people don't realize that a quality UPS, not necessarily a huge one,
just not a super-cheapy, have benefits beyond poer backup. They will
protect as a surge protector as well as act as a line 'conditioner'. You
know, like the $150 Monster surge protector/conditioners they try to sell
you when you by a flat panel TV.

You can get the same benefit from a sub-$100 (not $30) UPS. It doesn't need
to be huge, as you really only need 10 or 15 minutes worth of power. Enough
to keep you running for those short lived glitches of a minute or 2, and
that also gives you plenty of time to shutdown your computer properly,
instead of the power just dropping in the middle of extended disk access.


Good point. Have two of these in the computer room. One in the living room for
entertainment gear. They're worth every penny (lots of pennies)!

--
Sharon F
MS MVP
Windows/Shell
  #21  
Old November 10th 06, 02:11 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
w_tom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 373
Default Is Zone Alarm necessary with a DSL firewall?

DanS wrote:
Many people don't realize that a quality UPS, not necessarily a huge one,
just not a super-cheapy, have benefits beyond poer backup. They will
protect as a surge protector as well as act as a line 'conditioner'. You
know, like the $150 Monster surge protector/conditioners they try to sell
you when you by a flat panel TV. ...


The plug-in UPS connects AC mains directly to electronics when not in
battery backup mode. Where is power conditioning? It does not exist.
A relay does not 'condition' electricity. When does that electronics
see most 'dirty' electricity? When UPS is in battery backup mode. For
example, this UPS outputs as 120 volts: two 200 volt square waves with
a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. AC mains
provide 120 V sine wave and no spikes; much 'cleaner'. UPS in
battery backup mode outputs a waveform so 'dirty' as to even damage
some small electric motors. But computers are so robust that a 200
volt square wave and spike does no harm.

They are called 'computer grade' UPSes. So where is this power
conditioning? UPS provides 'cleanest' power when relay connects
electronics directly to AC mains. Where is this power conditioning?
Well where are its numerical specifications that claim such
conditioning? UPS numerical specifications 'forget' provide
numbers such as THD. Rumors claim 'power conditioning' that is
not in that numerical spec sheet.

Where is surge protection? Well it does provide protection from one
type of surge that is typically not destructive. Do we assume it
protects from ALL types of surges? Of course not. And yet that is
what many do when claiming a cheap UPS provides 'surge protection'.
They forget to mention the destructive type of surge it does not
protect from.

Again look at its numerical spec sheet. Where are numbers that
define protection for each type of surge? Numbers do not exist. As
required, a joules number is provided. That vaguely defines surge
protector life expectancy. The UPS - like a $160 Monster Cable
protector - does not even claim to protect from surges that typically
cause electronics damage.

A cheap UPS provides one function - protects data from damage by
blackouts and extreme brownouts. UPS protects data when power fails.
Notice its 'dirty' power during battery backup mode. Computer will see
some of the 'dirtiest' electricity from a UPS that is not a power
conditioner. UPS is battery backup power to protect data - nothing
more.

Get and post numeric specifications if you have a problem with these
facts. Damning numbers for those who assumed a 'computer grade' UPS
does more than battery backup.

Meanwhile, that $160 Monster Cable product does same functions found
in a $10 protector sold in the grocery store. But again, show me their
numbers? Monster Cable protectors - like their wires and connectors -
hype myths to the naive.

  #22  
Old November 10th 06, 05:18 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
bud--
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 27
Default Is Zone Alarm necessary with a DSL firewall?



On Nov 10, 7:11 am, "w_tom" wrote:
DanS wrote:
Many people don't realize that a quality UPS, not necessarily a huge one,
just not a super-cheapy, have benefits beyond poer backup. They will
protect as a surge protector as well as act as a line 'conditioner'. You
know, like the $150 Monster surge protector/conditioners they try to sell
you when you by a flat panel TV. ... The plug-in UPS connects AC mains directly to electronics when not in

battery backup mode. Where is power conditioning? It does not exist.
A relay does not 'condition' electricity. When does that electronics
see most 'dirty' electricity? When UPS is in battery backup mode. For
example, this UPS outputs as 120 volts: two 200 volt square waves with
a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. AC mains
provide 120 V sine wave and no spikes; much 'cleaner'. UPS in
battery backup mode outputs a waveform so 'dirty' as to even damage
some small electric motors. But computers are so robust that a 200
volt square wave and spike does no harm.

They are called 'computer grade' UPSes. So where is this power
conditioning? UPS provides 'cleanest' power when relay connects
electronics directly to AC mains. Where is this power conditioning?
Well where are its numerical specifications that claim such
conditioning? UPS numerical specifications 'forget' provide
numbers such as THD. Rumors claim 'power conditioning' that is
not in that numerical spec sheet.



Where is surge protection? Well it does provide protection from one
type of surge that is typically not destructive. Do we assume it
protects from ALL types of surges? Of course not. And yet that is
what many do when claiming a cheap UPS provides 'surge protection'.
They forget to mention the destructive type of surge it does not
protect from.

Again look at its numerical spec sheet. Where are numbers that
define protection for each type of surge? Numbers do not exist.

If a surge protector is listed under UL 1449 it has MOVs from H-N,
H-G, N-G that cover all surge modes. w_ has never provided specs from
anyone that had numbers for different surge modes. This is a red
hering.

Interconnected devices should connect to the same surge protector or
signal wires should run thorugh the surge protector.

Good information on surges and surge protection is available from the
IEEE at:
http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Li...ion_May051.pdf

And from the NIST at
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/p.../surgesfnl.pdf

--
bud--

  #23  
Old November 10th 06, 07:30 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
Pop`
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 615
Default Is Zone Alarm necessary with a DSL firewall?

DanS wrote:
Sharon F wrote in
:


As for not turning off the computer - I still do it. We get
thunderstorms that can knock out expensive electronic equipment in
the blink of an eye and occasionally enough wind to disrupt the power
supply. Also... and this is just personal opinion... I think it's
more "earth-friendly" to not consume power when you don't need to.


No arguement; unplugging is the only sure protection against some
situations.



Many people don't realize that a quality UPS, not necessarily a huge
one, just not a super-cheapy, have benefits beyond poer backup. They
will protect as a surge protector as well as act as a line
'conditioner'.


A UPS's true use is to protect against power outages or over/under voltages,
and allow the clean shut down of the computer. The surge protection of a
UPS may or may not meet or beat that of the "surge protector" you allude to.
Even just a surge protector capable of some substantial energy consumption
far exceeds your estimates of the cost of a UPS. A UPS also normally has
far more surge protection than what you refer to.

You know, like the $150 Monster surge
protector/conditioners they try to sell you when you by a flat panel
TV.


Thosre are NOT "monsters": They are minimally designed and very poor surge
protectors in general. Some are good, some aren't. It's the specs that
matter, not the price.


For the most part, you're right with the following exceptions/caveats:
1. Line power protections does NOT protect the telephone wires unless you
run them through the device, as they recommend; in general, damaging surges
occur much more frequently on the phone lines than on the power lines.
2. No "cheap" UPS "conditions" the power lines. All most do is switch over
to battery power if the surges/peaks go beyond certain limits.
3. Decent UPS's are not available in the $30 range; the batteries t
hemselves cost that much or more.
4. NO UPS is going to protect equipment from a close lightning hit, which
the OP intimates may occur frequently and unexpectedly.
5. Unless it's a decent UPS, there will be no indication if/when the
internal surge protection has been compromised. Therefore one hit can kill
the protection and have saved the equipment, but a successive hit will get
directly to the equipment. MOVs and "standard" cktry fails open vs.
shorted, and if not internally monitored, can be damaged beyond
functionality without any symptoms being present.
6. Turning the power OFF and unplugging ALL external connections (e.g.
unplug power AND telephone wiring) is the ONLY way to be certain an external
lightning hit or power-cross can't get to the equipment.
The best way to unplug the power is with a power strip: When you unplug
that, you should be unplugging everything. Just unplugging, say, the
computer, still leaves other paths to exist where surges/hits can get into
it via the other equipment (eg connectors, phone, etc).

In SOME areas in North America and around the world, the above points are
ALL valid and the best protection is to be sure everything gets unplugged.
In "most" areas, it can be debatable whether they are necessary points to
use. eg around here, we don/'t see lighting unless the storm is detectable
(99% of the time anyway).
Most people find the use of a reasonably priced UPS which will give them
anything greater than 5 minutes of running time and has protection for the
phone wires plus a control connection to the computer, will suffice.
They give the user time to Shut Down without losing any data before the
power is lost.
They gloss over temporary outages of very short duration without even
bothering the user other than he may hear the UPS beep, indicating an
"event" occurred.
For unattended computers, they will automatically Shut Down the computer if
power is lost and the batteries can't keep the computer running any longer.

Just to clarify; there is a LOT of info available on these points all over
the web.

HTH
Pop`




  #24  
Old November 11th 06, 12:13 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
DanS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 327
Default Is Zone Alarm necessary with a DSL firewall?

"Pop`" wrote in
:

DanS wrote:
Sharon F wrote in
:


As for not turning off the computer - I still do it. We get
thunderstorms that can knock out expensive electronic equipment in
the blink of an eye and occasionally enough wind to disrupt the
power supply. Also... and this is just personal opinion... I think
it's more "earth-friendly" to not consume power when you don't need
to.


No arguement; unplugging is the only sure protection against some
situations.



Many people don't realize that a quality UPS, not necessarily a huge
one, just not a super-cheapy, have benefits beyond poer backup. They
will protect as a surge protector as well as act as a line
'conditioner'.


A UPS's true use is to protect against power outages or over/under
voltages, and allow the clean shut down of the computer. The surge
protection of a UPS may or may not meet or beat that of the "surge
protector" you allude to. Even just a surge protector capable of some
substantial energy consumption far exceeds your estimates of the cost
of a UPS. A UPS also normally has far more surge protection than what
you refer to.

You know, like the $150 Monster surge
protector/conditioners they try to sell you when you by a flat panel
TV.


Thosre are NOT "monsters": They are minimally designed and very poor
surge protectors in general. Some are good, some aren't. It's the
specs that matter, not the price.


I meant the brand name 'Monster' as in 'Monster Cables', you know, the
company that want to sell you $100 speaker wire for your $100 stereo
receiver. It's all a marketing scam.


For the most part, you're right with the following exceptions/caveats:
1. Line power protections does NOT protect the telephone wires unless
you run them through the device, as they recommend; in general,
damaging surges occur much more frequently on the phone lines than on
the power lines.


Agreed.

2. No "cheap" UPS "conditions" the power lines. All
most do is switch over to battery power if the surges/peaks go beyond
certain limits.


I should have stated that by conditioning, I meant filter of RFI and EMI.


3. Decent UPS's are not available in the $30 range;
the batteries t hemselves cost that much or more.


That is exactly what I stated. I said 'sub-$100 (NOT a $30 one)'.

Most people find the use of a reasonably priced UPS which will give
them
anything greater than 5 minutes of running time and has protection for
the phone wires plus a control connection to the computer, will
suffice. They give the user time to Shut Down without losing any data
before the power is lost.
They gloss over temporary outages of very short duration without even
bothering the user other than he may hear the UPS beep, indicating an
"event" occurred.
For unattended computers, they will automatically Shut Down the
computer if power is lost and the batteries can't keep the computer
running any longer.


And yes, those are also the reasons I stated.

Regards,

DanS

  #25  
Old November 11th 06, 12:42 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
DanS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 327
Default Is Zone Alarm necessary with a DSL firewall?

"w_tom" wrote in
oups.com:


They are called 'computer grade' UPSes. So where is this power
conditioning? UPS provides 'cleanest' power when relay connects
electronics directly to AC mains. Where is this power conditioning?
Well where are its numerical specifications that claim such
conditioning? UPS numerical specifications 'forget' provide
numbers such as THD. Rumors claim 'power conditioning' that is
not in that numerical spec sheet.


Get and post numeric specifications if you have a problem with these
facts. Damning numbers for those who assumed a 'computer grade' UPS
does more than battery backup.


Well, here is a link to a download for the short manual on the APC ES-
750:

http://sturgeon.apcc.com/techref.nsf/partnum/990-2128/$FILE/990-2128
_EN.pdf

A quick web search yields prices ranges from $68 - $100 dollars.

It has several AC outlets on it. One w/backup, and a few with surge
protection only. Also, it has surge protection for a phone/fax line, a
cable line, and a network connection as well. As I said in another post,
I should have said the conditioneing I referred to was RFI/EMI filtering,
which is what the saleperson at CC tried to use to sell me the 'Monster'
surge protector for my LCD TV.

UPS's come in three flavors, in order of least to most desirable,
modified sine-wave (like the one you have), step-approximated (like the
one I linked above), and pure sine-wave outputs. The pure sine-wave are
the most expensive and the largest and heavies, as they are essentially a
giant audio amplifier.

The specs linked above are listed as when on battery backup, 115V +/- 8%.

I could not find on the webpage if the switchover from AC to DC was
mechanical (with a relay as yours), or solid-state.

And I also stated that the main reason for having one is to coast through
a very short power failure, and allow proper shutdown for the extended
outages, not to continually run your PC on it.

What is the brand, model and selling price of the one you have ?

Regards,

DanS


  #26  
Old November 11th 06, 03:27 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
w_tom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 373
Default Is Zone Alarm necessary with a DSL firewall?

Protection required (and still not installed in most all homes) was
routinely installed before WWII in commercial broadcasting stations,
all telephone switching centers (COs), and even to electronics atop the
Empire State Building where lightning struck 25 times annually. Direct
lightning strikes with no damage was standard and necessary even that
long ago.

Do they disconnect to protect? Of course not. Notice how your
telco, with a $multimillion computer connected to overhead wires
everywhere in town, turns off phone service as thunderstorms approach.
Oh. They suffer no computer damage and yet do not disconnect? That
correct. They use 'whole house' type protection connected to a single
point earth ground. Protectors connected short to earth provide
protection - that good.

Even early 1900 Ham radio operators would disconnect the antenna, put
that antenna lead inside a mason jar, and still suffer damage. Damage
stopped when that wire was earthed. Earthing - not a protector - is
the protection.

Take a $3 power strip. Add some $0.10 parts. Sell it for $25 - or
make it look more expensive and sell it as a Monster Cable product.
Meanwhile, where are the spec numbers that list protection for each
type of transient? Monster Cable does not provide those numbers
because Monster Cable does not even claim to protect from the
destructive type of surge.

Meanwhile, where are numbers for this EMI and RFI protection afforded
by Monster Cable? It is an old and well proven trend. No numbers is
how to promote myths as fact. Where are numbers for this EMI and RFI
protection? What problem does that solve? Somehow those details are
forgotten when promoting Monster Cable and UPSes.

Little hint. Electronic appliances already contain EMI / RFI
protection internally. Anything that Monster Cable product claims to
accomplish is already in all electronic appliances. Required by FCC
requirements. Did they successfully get you to assume that EMI/RFI
circuit does something for your appliance? Again, lying by telling
half truths.

Meanwhile, what is in the sub-$100 UPS? Same protector circuit also
found inside a Monster Cable protector. Where is this protection?
Protection promoted by urban myths. Have any doubts? Then post the
manufacturer's numerical specs. Show us with manufacturer numbers this
protection for each type of transient. Why do they routinely not
provide those numbers? Shorting such information creates an
environment ripe for myths. They will do anything not to discuss
earthing.

The Monster Cable protector does what? Where are the numbers. A
damning fact proven even long before WWII. The protector is nothing
more than a connection to protection. What is the protection? Earth
ground. What does the Monster Cable product not connect to? Earth
ground. What does IEEE recommend in standards for effective
protection? Earth ground.

Where is the 'less than 10 foot' connection from a sub-$100 UPS or
from a Monster Cable product to earth ground? Does not exist - does
it. They hope you never learn why earthing is essential to protection
because ... a $3 power strip with some $0.10 parts selling for $100+.
Why would they provide any numbers? Myth purveyors will create
massive profits.

Meanwhile, responsible manufactures provide transient protection.
Monster Cable is clearly not on the list of responsible.
Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, Leviton, GE, Siemens, Square D, and other
responsible brand names sell the effective 'whole house' protector.
Same technology found in telephone switching stations that don't
disconnect during thunderstorms. Same technology with a dedicated wire
for earth ground connection. Effective solutions are sold in Lowes,
Home Depot, and electrical supply houses - for tens of times (in the
case of Monster Cable - hundred of times) less money per protected
appliance. The effective solution also costs massively less because
..... well they are not selling a $3 power strip with some $0.10
components for $160. Would you trust an AC mains breaker box labeled
Monster Cable? For obvious reasons .... no. Same company even sells
speaker wire for $100 - and some recommend that speaker wire as if
they just know it is better - without numbers.

No earth ground means no effective protection. Even the sub-$100 UPS
is only data protection from blackouts and extreme brownouts. Those
who disagree: then show me the numbers.

DanS wrote:
...
I meant the brand name 'Monster' as in 'Monster Cables', you know, the
company that want to sell you $100 speaker wire for your $100 stereo
receiver. It's all a marketing scam.
...

2. No "cheap" UPS "conditions" the power lines. All
most do is switch over to battery power if the surges/peaks go beyond
certain limits.


I should have stated that by conditioning, I meant filter of RFI and EMI.


3. Decent UPS's are not available in the $30 range;
the batteries t hemselves cost that much or more.


That is exactly what I stated. I said 'sub-$100 (NOT a $30 one)'.
...


  #27  
Old November 11th 06, 06:33 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
bud--
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 27
Default Is Zone Alarm necessary with a DSL firewall?



On Nov 11, 8:27 am, "w_tom" wrote:

Take a $3 power strip. Add some $0.10 parts. Sell it for $25 - or
make it look more expensive and sell it as a Monster Cable product.
Meanwhile, where are the spec numbers that list protection for each
type of transient? Monster Cable does not provide those numbers
because Monster Cable does not even claim to protect from the
destructive type of surge.

Where are w_'s specs for any surge suppressor that "list protection for
each type of transient"? Still nissing. This is still a red herring.
And if a common mode surge (H & N lift from G) comes into a house, the
N-G connection in a (US) service turns the common mode surge
substantially into a differential mode surge (H lifts from N & G).

I agree that "monster" anything is basically a rip-off.

They will do anything not to discuss
earthing.

Your religious views on earthing are not shared by the IEEE and NIST.
The IEEE guide clearly describes plug-in suppressors as working
primarily by clamping the voltage on all wires (power and signal) to
the common ground at the suppressor. They do not work primarily by
earthing.


What does IEEE recommend in standards for effective
protection? Earth ground.

You have to be stupid to think the IEEE guide, aimed at the general
public, is not consistent with other IEEE publications.


No earth ground means no effective protection.

The statement of religious belief again.


Those who disagree: then show me the numbers.

Specs for surge suppressors are readily available. Specs for different
modes are still a red herring.


The IEEE and NIST guides say that plug-in suppressors are effective.
Links to sites that say plug-in suppressors are effective: 2
Your links to sites that say plug-in suppressors are not effective:
zero

--
bud--

  #28  
Old November 11th 06, 10:31 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
Pappion
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 130
Default Is Zone Alarm necessary with a DSL firewall?

Sheesh, I was a HAM, and remember when we sent "e-mails" to one another, and
how we did it before the Internet...kid-operator.
I agree re the grounding. Grandfather told me about that when I was a wee
lass. He developed the Diesel engine with Dr. Diesel, and refused to move
to Germany (good thing), but built the first motor car engine company in the
nation, and there's a sign on Pike's Peak commemorating he was the first to
cross in an automobile. Fortunate, both grandfathers were commonsense
people, and both always "grounded" everything possible--and took me along.
LOL Mat. g'father was head lineman for Mich Bell in the upper central Mi
region--during snowstorms with snow drifts to close to the top of poles,
many farmers would suggest he "pull those lines up from our inside our warm
homes..." LOL

Not really comprehending all you write, but thanks. I shut down my computer
and surge protector daily, and in storms unplug everything.

New threat needed on speaker wire--but not applicable to this NG. Have
questions on surround-the-home sound to enjoy my classical music. Don't know
how/where to contact those in the know. CNET didn't.

"w_tom" wrote in message
ups.com...
Protection required (and still not installed in most all homes) was
routinely installed before WWII in commercial broadcasting stations,
all telephone switching centers (COs), and even to electronics atop the
Empire State Building where lightning struck 25 times annually. Direct
lightning strikes with no damage was standard and necessary even that
long ago.

Do they disconnect to protect? Of course not. Notice how your
telco, with a $multimillion computer connected to overhead wires
everywhere in town, turns off phone service as thunderstorms approach.
Oh. They suffer no computer damage and yet do not disconnect? That
correct. They use 'whole house' type protection connected to a single
point earth ground. Protectors connected short to earth provide
protection - that good.

Even early 1900 Ham radio operators would disconnect the antenna, put
that antenna lead inside a mason jar, and still suffer damage. Damage
stopped when that wire was earthed. Earthing - not a protector - is
the protection.

Take a $3 power strip. Add some $0.10 parts. Sell it for $25 - or
make it look more expensive and sell it as a Monster Cable product.
Meanwhile, where are the spec numbers that list protection for each
type of transient? Monster Cable does not provide those numbers
because Monster Cable does not even claim to protect from the
destructive type of surge.

Meanwhile, where are numbers for this EMI and RFI protection afforded
by Monster Cable? It is an old and well proven trend. No numbers is
how to promote myths as fact. Where are numbers for this EMI and RFI
protection? What problem does that solve? Somehow those details are
forgotten when promoting Monster Cable and UPSes.

Little hint. Electronic appliances already contain EMI / RFI
protection internally. Anything that Monster Cable product claims to
accomplish is already in all electronic appliances. Required by FCC
requirements. Did they successfully get you to assume that EMI/RFI
circuit does something for your appliance? Again, lying by telling
half truths.

Meanwhile, what is in the sub-$100 UPS? Same protector circuit also
found inside a Monster Cable protector. Where is this protection?
Protection promoted by urban myths. Have any doubts? Then post the
manufacturer's numerical specs. Show us with manufacturer numbers this
protection for each type of transient. Why do they routinely not
provide those numbers? Shorting such information creates an
environment ripe for myths. They will do anything not to discuss
earthing.

The Monster Cable protector does what? Where are the numbers. A
damning fact proven even long before WWII. The protector is nothing
more than a connection to protection. What is the protection? Earth
ground. What does the Monster Cable product not connect to? Earth
ground. What does IEEE recommend in standards for effective
protection? Earth ground.

Where is the 'less than 10 foot' connection from a sub-$100 UPS or
from a Monster Cable product to earth ground? Does not exist - does
it. They hope you never learn why earthing is essential to protection
because ... a $3 power strip with some $0.10 parts selling for $100+.
Why would they provide any numbers? Myth purveyors will create
massive profits.

Meanwhile, responsible manufactures provide transient protection.
Monster Cable is clearly not on the list of responsible.
Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, Leviton, GE, Siemens, Square D, and other
responsible brand names sell the effective 'whole house' protector.
Same technology found in telephone switching stations that don't
disconnect during thunderstorms. Same technology with a dedicated wire
for earth ground connection. Effective solutions are sold in Lowes,
Home Depot, and electrical supply houses - for tens of times (in the
case of Monster Cable - hundred of times) less money per protected
appliance. The effective solution also costs massively less because
.... well they are not selling a $3 power strip with some $0.10
components for $160. Would you trust an AC mains breaker box labeled
Monster Cable? For obvious reasons .... no. Same company even sells
speaker wire for $100 - and some recommend that speaker wire as if
they just know it is better - without numbers.

No earth ground means no effective protection. Even the sub-$100 UPS
is only data protection from blackouts and extreme brownouts. Those
who disagree: then show me the numbers.

DanS wrote:
...
I meant the brand name 'Monster' as in 'Monster Cables', you know, the
company that want to sell you $100 speaker wire for your $100 stereo
receiver. It's all a marketing scam.
...

2. No "cheap" UPS "conditions" the power lines. All
most do is switch over to battery power if the surges/peaks go beyond
certain limits.


I should have stated that by conditioning, I meant filter of RFI and EMI.


3. Decent UPS's are not available in the $30 range;
the batteries t hemselves cost that much or more.


That is exactly what I stated. I said 'sub-$100 (NOT a $30 one)'.
...




  #29  
Old November 11th 06, 10:33 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
Pappion
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 130
Default Earthgrounding

Is the answer then to literally unplug the surge suppressor from the wall
outlet???
"bud--" wrote in message
ups.com...


On Nov 11, 8:27 am, "w_tom" wrote:

Take a $3 power strip. Add some $0.10 parts. Sell it for $25 - or
make it look more expensive and sell it as a Monster Cable product.
Meanwhile, where are the spec numbers that list protection for each
type of transient? Monster Cable does not provide those numbers
because Monster Cable does not even claim to protect from the
destructive type of surge.

Where are w_'s specs for any surge suppressor that "list protection for
each type of transient"? Still nissing. This is still a red herring.
And if a common mode surge (H & N lift from G) comes into a house, the
N-G connection in a (US) service turns the common mode surge
substantially into a differential mode surge (H lifts from N & G).

I agree that "monster" anything is basically a rip-off.

They will do anything not to discuss
earthing.

Your religious views on earthing are not shared by the IEEE and NIST.
The IEEE guide clearly describes plug-in suppressors as working
primarily by clamping the voltage on all wires (power and signal) to
the common ground at the suppressor. They do not work primarily by
earthing.


What does IEEE recommend in standards for effective
protection? Earth ground.

You have to be stupid to think the IEEE guide, aimed at the general
public, is not consistent with other IEEE publications.


No earth ground means no effective protection.

The statement of religious belief again.


Those who disagree: then show me the numbers.

Specs for surge suppressors are readily available. Specs for different
modes are still a red herring.


The IEEE and NIST guides say that plug-in suppressors are effective.
Links to sites that say plug-in suppressors are effective: 2
Your links to sites that say plug-in suppressors are not effective:
zero

--
bud--



  #30  
Old November 12th 06, 05:20 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
DanS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 327
Default Is Zone Alarm necessary with a DSL firewall?

"w_tom" wrote in
ups.com:


Meanwhile, where are numbers for this EMI and RFI protection
afforded
by Monster Cable? It is an old and well proven trend. No numbers is
how to promote myths as fact. Where are numbers for this EMI and RFI
protection? What problem does that solve? Somehow those details are
forgotten when promoting Monster Cable and UPSes.


Regardless of what your opinion is, why do you keep going back to the
Monster product I mentioned ? Everyone agrees it's a marketing ploy. And
why did the subject get to 'whole house' systems ? We were discussing
$100'ish dollar UPS's.

It sounds like you're expecting to find whitepaper like articles about
tests results of each model.......your not going to find that.
 




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