Believe it or not but PC is coming back...

On Wed, 17 Dec 2014 20:47:52 +0000, Dr Nick
wrote:

These days in the UK we seem to have "terrestrial" (which comes through
the air) and "Sky" (which often comes down a cable buried in the
ground).


Is everything in the UK backwards? Do you say KU?

* Dr Nick:

Steve Hayes writes:

On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 23:10:53 -0800, Snidely wrote:

Just this Sunday, Steve Hayes puzzled about:

There used to be a firm called "Cable and wireless",

One of Nick Spalding's employers, no?

and the "Cable" in their
name referred to messages sent via the PSTN. In my youth "cable" was quite
often used as a synonym for "telegram", again sent over the PSTN, especially
if it was longer than a single page, as in a press report.

Was there a _Public_ telegraph network? Or was it a private network
with offices where the public could pick up or drop off messages?

Or are you using 'P' for "Plain", as in the telephone usage?

What does the 'S' stand for?

PSTN is the Public Switched Telephone Network.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_...ephone_network

I only used the services of Cable & Wireless a couple of times in Hong Kong in
1985 when I wanted to phone home, and they had a bunch of public telephone
booths for that purpose.

The usage confusion seems to be that most people outside North America seem to
use "landline" to mean any telephone service that uses a wire or cable coming
to the house or other building where the instrument is located, as opposed to
a mobile phone that can be used in different locations wirelessly.

Some people in North America, however, seem to distinguish between "landline"
and "cable".

I think I'd (BrE) use "landline" /of a phone service/ to mean "has a
geographic number rather than a mobile one".

However, this distinction does not exist in North America, at
least not usually. My landline and my mobile number share the same
area code.

I don't think that "cable" is a common descriptor for a phone
service. With my knowledge, I see phone service on a cable
connection as just one variety of VoIP. But admittedly, the
general public does not see and hence does not understand the
difference between a traditional landline and a VoIP service that
happens to use a cabled connection (whether DSL, TV cable or
fiber).

In practice as I know it, most people will just state which
company provides their phone service, and local people will know,
at least if it's one of the big services that 99% of people use:
"I have my phone from Videotron" means "cable", because Videotron
is a cable TV provider. For companies that offer both POTS and
VoIP, you may have to add the name of the service if it seems
relevant; these names are not generic, but vary by provider.

--
The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts
agree, is by accident. That's where we come in; we're computer
professionals. We cause accidents.
Nathaniel Borenstein

On Wed, 17 Dec 2014 23:02:42 UTC, Oliver Cromm
wrote:

* Dr Nick:

Steve Hayes writes:

On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 23:10:53 -0800, Snidely wrote:

Just this Sunday, Steve Hayes puzzled about:

There used to be a firm called "Cable and wireless",

One of Nick Spalding's employers, no?

and the "Cable" in their
name referred to messages sent via the PSTN. In my youth "cable" was quite
often used as a synonym for "telegram", again sent over the PSTN, especially
if it was longer than a single page, as in a press report.

Was there a _Public_ telegraph network? Or was it a private network
with offices where the public could pick up or drop off messages?

Or are you using 'P' for "Plain", as in the telephone usage?

What does the 'S' stand for?

PSTN is the Public Switched Telephone Network.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_...ephone_network

I only used the services of Cable & Wireless a couple of times in Hong Kong in
1985 when I wanted to phone home, and they had a bunch of public telephone
booths for that purpose.

The usage confusion seems to be that most people outside North America seem to
use "landline" to mean any telephone service that uses a wire or cable coming
to the house or other building where the instrument is located, as opposed to
a mobile phone that can be used in different locations wirelessly.

Some people in North America, however, seem to distinguish between "landline"
and "cable".

I think I'd (BrE) use "landline" /of a phone service/ to mean "has a
geographic number rather than a mobile one".

However, this distinction does not exist in North America, at
least not usually. My landline and my mobile number share the same
area code.

I took Dr Nick to mean that the whole telephone number -- all ten
digits, not just the area code -- is tied to a physical location or
the whole number is tied to a mobile phone. My landline and cell
phone share an area code.

I don't think that "cable" is a common descriptor for a phone
service. With my knowledge, I see phone service on a cable
connection as just one variety of VoIP. But admittedly, the
general public does not see and hence does not understand the
difference between a traditional landline and a VoIP service that
happens to use a cabled connection (whether DSL, TV cable or
fiber).

My landline comes by fiber strung on poles and I call it a landline.
It is analog in the house and up to the interface box (we still use
one rotary dial phone); I don't know and don't care if, once it
leaves my house, it's VoIP. That's Verizon's concern.

In practice as I know it, most people will just state which
company provides their phone service, and local people will know,
at least if it's one of the big services that 99% of people use:
"I have my phone from Videotron" means "cable", because Videotron
is a cable TV provider. For companies that offer both POTS and
VoIP, you may have to add the name of the service if it seems
relevant; these names are not generic, but vary by provider.

--
John Varela

| These days in the UK we seem to have "terrestrial" (which comes through
| the air) and "Sky" (which often comes down a cable buried in the
| ground).
|
| Is everything in the UK backwards? Do you say KU?
|

The Brits are very prone to cutesy terms. So terrestrial
may sound a bit overly technical, but we can be grateful
they don't call them something like "widgie" and "smidgie".

In message , Mayayana
writes:
| So we have established that "landline" means something different and more
| restricted to some people in North America from what it means in the rest
of
| the world.
|
| But it also seems, from this discussion that even in North America *some*
| people understand "landline" in the wider ROTW sense.
|
Not just in NA; the term isn't _that_ common in UK, but when it is used,
it is usually to mean plain wired telephone service, over wire not cable
(at least from the house to the street cabinet).

Landline in the US is used by cellphone owners
to describe wired telephones. Cable means cable
TV and/or cable Internet. Broadband or highspeed
mean any Internet access except dial-up access,
known popularly as cable, DSL or satellite. Anything
else (including "twisted pair", which is a grossly
outdated expression describing in-house telephone
wire used mainly in the first half of the 20th century,
which was a pair of separate wires, llightly twisted
together) is only likely to be used by technicians and
people in some computer newsgroups.

Though the term twisted pair is little used and does sound a little
quaint, it's far from outdated in the UK: the majority of plain
telephone lines (which are also now used for broadband, ADSL) in rural
areas, and quite a few urban too, do still come via a pair of wires.
They're usually included in a further loose sheath nowadays, but they
are still usually two (single-core, not stranded) wires.

Twisted pair only got used in the first place because
early DSL didn't work very well and required that houses
have old-style twisted-pair wiring in place, which had a
much thicker gauge copper than modern wiring. Before
that, twisted pair was known simply as, "Wow, your phones
wires are *really* old!"

Assuming you're writing from USA, things must be slightly different
there.

The terms are that way because they developed that
way. Landline wasn't a relevant qualifier until people
started using cellphones as their only phone. (I say "wired

Well, until cell/mobile became common and it became necessary to
differentiate; I don't think it held back until they were sometimes the
only.

phone" if I need to differentiate. I think of landline as still
being a fairly recent hip slang usage, known mostly to
smartphone addicts.) Likewise, cable wasn't a relevant
qualifier until people had two ways to receive TV signals.

If those terms all seem wrong to you then there's a
simple solution: be more descriptive.

Indeed (-:

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Squawk Pieces of eight!
Squawk Pieces of eight!
Squawk Pieces of nine!
SYSTEM HALTED: parroty error!

In message , Mayayana
writes:
| These days in the UK we seem to have "terrestrial" (which comes through
| the air) and "Sky" (which often comes down a cable buried in the
| ground).
|
| Is everything in the UK backwards? Do you say KU?
|
Dr. Nick was expressing dry humour, as well as gently mocking those who
don't think about the means of distribution, only the name of the
company they are paying.

The Brits are very prone to cutesy terms. So terrestrial
may sound a bit overly technical, but we can be grateful
they don't call them something like "widgie" and "smidgie".

Would you care to give some examples? Certainly, Germany has some cute
terms - "handy" (as a noun!) for example, but I can't think of many UK
such terms.

We get TV by digital terrestrial TV (DTT), which most of the public -
and listing magazines - call "FreeView", and is the means by which a
large proportion - possibly even still the majority - get their TV. The
second most popular is satellite, still mostly paid from Sky, though
there is FreeSat; finally there is cable, which doesn't have huge
penetration here, despite UK being much more densely-populated than the
USA. (It's still being added to, slowly.) These were the three modes -
aerial, dish, or cable - until TV via one's internet connection started
to catch on, which it has, and it's growing.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Everyone looks sun-kissed and beautiful and as you watch it ["Bondi Rescue"],
pale and flabby on your sofa, you find yourself wondering if your life could
ever be that exotic. (It couldn't. You're British.) - Russell Howard, in
Radio Times, 20-26 April 2013

In message , Steve Hayes
writes:
[]
The usage confusion seems to be that most people outside North America seem to
use "landline" to mean any telephone service that uses a wire or cable coming
to the house or other building where the instrument is located, as opposed to
a mobile phone that can be used in different locations wirelessly.

Not just NA; here in UK "landline", in most cases, does not mean the
same thing as - and does _not_ include - "cable".

Some people in North America, however, seem to distinguish between "landline"
and "cable".


--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Everyone looks sun-kissed and beautiful and as you watch it ["Bondi Rescue"],
pale and flabby on your sofa, you find yourself wondering if your life could
ever be that exotic. (It couldn't. You're British.) - Russell Howard, in
Radio Times, 20-26 April 2013

| They're usually included in a further loose sheath nowadays, but they
| are still usually two (single-core, not stranded) wires.
|
| Twisted pair only got used in the first place because
| early DSL didn't work very well and required that houses
| have old-style twisted-pair wiring in place, which had a
| much thicker gauge copper than modern wiring. Before
| that, twisted pair was known simply as, "Wow, your phones
| wires are *really* old!"
|
| Assuming you're writing from USA, things must be slightly different
| there.

It sounds like it's similar. Wiring here is still usually
solid core, with 4 or more color-coded wires in a sheath.
(4 wires for most residential, allowing for two lines to be
carried on the same wire. 8 or more wires for business.)
But the original actually was "twisted". It was two separate
wires that turned around each other loosely and were of
a much thicker guage than newer wires. So it's visually
a "twisted pair". It only made a difference because early
DSL often wouldn't work unless it ran over such thick wires.

| The Brits are very prone to cutesy terms. So terrestrial
| may sound a bit overly technical, but we can be grateful
| they don't call them something like "widgie" and "smidgie".
|
| Would you care to give some examples?

I'm drawing a blank. That doesn't ring a bell for you?
It seems to me that Brits are often adding "ie" or coming
up with quirky words, which sound out of place in formal
speech. Also with names. It seems the more refined and
stuffy a person is, the more likely they are to have a
diminutive name ending in "ie". (I once dated an English
woman whose mother had remarried into the family of a
lord. The mother was a rather stuffy, status-conscious
woman. Yet she called herself "Cherry", seemingly unaware
that to an American ear that could only refer to a stripper
or cabaret dancer.

On Wed, 17 Dec 2014 18:02:42 -0500, Oliver Cromm
wrote:

* Dr Nick:

Steve Hayes writes:

On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 23:10:53 -0800, Snidely wrote:

Just this Sunday, Steve Hayes puzzled about:

There used to be a firm called "Cable and wireless",

One of Nick Spalding's employers, no?

and the "Cable" in their
name referred to messages sent via the PSTN. In my youth "cable" was quite
often used as a synonym for "telegram", again sent over the PSTN, especially
if it was longer than a single page, as in a press report.

Was there a _Public_ telegraph network? Or was it a private network
with offices where the public could pick up or drop off messages?

Or are you using 'P' for "Plain", as in the telephone usage?

What does the 'S' stand for?

PSTN is the Public Switched Telephone Network.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_...ephone_network

I only used the services of Cable & Wireless a couple of times in Hong Kong in
1985 when I wanted to phone home, and they had a bunch of public telephone
booths for that purpose.

The usage confusion seems to be that most people outside North America seem to
use "landline" to mean any telephone service that uses a wire or cable coming
to the house or other building where the instrument is located, as opposed to
a mobile phone that can be used in different locations wirelessly.

Some people in North America, however, seem to distinguish between "landline"
and "cable".

I think I'd (BrE) use "landline" /of a phone service/ to mean "has a
geographic number rather than a mobile one".

However, this distinction does not exist in North America, at
least not usually. My landline and my mobile number share the same
area code.

The distinction still exists until your landline and your mobile phone share
the same *number*.







I don't think that "cable" is a common descriptor for a phone
service. With my knowledge, I see phone service on a cable
connection as just one variety of VoIP. But admittedly, the
general public does not see and hence does not understand the
difference between a traditional landline and a VoIP service that
happens to use a cabled connection (whether DSL, TV cable or
fiber).

In practice as I know it, most people will just state which
company provides their phone service, and local people will know,
at least if it's one of the big services that 99% of people use:
"I have my phone from Videotron" means "cable", because Videotron
is a cable TV provider. For companies that offer both POTS and
VoIP, you may have to add the name of the service if it seems
relevant; these names are not generic, but vary by provider.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Steve Hayes explained :
wrote:
* Dr Nick:

I think I'd (BrE) use "landline" /of a phone service/ to mean "has a
geographic number rather than a mobile one".

However, this distinction does not exist in North America, at
least not usually. My landline and my mobile number share the same
area code.

The distinction still exists until your landline and your mobile phone share
the same *number*.

But we don't have a way to tell *which number* is a cell number vs a
landline, except by examining each account individually. And a
landline number can become a cell number at any time. (In theory,
AIUI, a cell number can become a landline number at any time, but that
seems to be rarely invoked.)

My GF replaced her landline with a cell-based service with a base unit
that remains staticly located within her house. Plugged into it is the
old POTS telephone she used to plug into the landline, and she receives
and issues calls the same as she did before, except that they don't
travel via copper to the utility pole. The number you call to reach
her via that service is the same number she had for the landline, and
she had that number for about 10 years before cell phones fit into
pockets.

/dps

--
Ieri, oggi, domani

On 18/12/14 12:44, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

Though the term twisted pair is little used and does sound a little
quaint, it's far from outdated in the UK: the majority of plain
telephone lines (which are also now used for broadband, ADSL) in rural
areas, and quite a few urban too, do still come via a pair of wires.
They're usually included in a further loose sheath nowadays, but they
are still usually two (single-core, not stranded) wires.

And I imagine they're twisted, because that's an improvement over
parallel wires in terms of propagation properties. (The twisting affects
the magnetic field.)

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org

On 18/12/2014 04:17, Mayayana wrote:
| The Brits are very prone to cutesy terms. So terrestrial
| may sound a bit overly technical, but we can be grateful
| they don't call them something like "widgie" and "smidgie".
|
| Would you care to give some examples?

I'm drawing a blank. That doesn't ring a bell for you?
It seems to me that Brits are often adding "ie" or coming
up with quirky words, which sound out of place in formal
speech. Also with names. It seems the more refined and
stuffy a person is, the more likely they are to have a
diminutive name ending in "ie". (I once dated an English
woman whose mother had remarried into the family of a
lord. The mother was a rather stuffy, status-conscious
woman. Yet she called herself "Cherry", seemingly unaware
that to an American ear that could only refer to a stripper
or cabaret dancer.

Crikey.

So rather like those Americans who call themselves "Randy", seemingly
unaware that to a British ear ...

--
Katy Jennison

On 12/17/2014 9:41 AM, Mayayana wrote:
| So we have established that "landline" means something different and more
| restricted to some people in North America from what it means in the rest
of
| the world.
|
| But it also seems, from this discussion that even in North America *some*
| people understand "landline" in the wider ROTW sense.
|

Landline in the US is used by cellphone owners
to describe wired telephones. Cable means cable
TV and/or cable Internet. Broadband or highspeed
mean any Internet access except dial-up access,
known popularly as cable, DSL or satellite. Anything
else (including "twisted pair", which is a grossly
outdated expression describing in-house telephone
wire used mainly in the first half of the 20th century,
which was a pair of separate wires, llightly twisted
together) is only likely to be used by technicians and
people in some computer newsgroups.

Twisted pair only got used in the first place because
early DSL didn't work very well and required that houses
have old-style twisted-pair wiring in place, which had a
much thicker gauge copper than modern wiring. Before
that, twisted pair was known simply as, "Wow, your phones
wires are *really* old!"

There are twisted pair cables and there are twisted pair
cables. Category 1 to Category 8.X are all "twisted pairs".
The main difference is in the number of twists per unit length
-- the higher the number, the higher the bit rate the cable
can handle. The limit for Cat 3 is 16Mb/s, Cat 5 100Mb/s,
and Cat 5e 1Gb/s, etc.

The cables connecting the telephone company network to the
user's premise (the proverbial "last mile") is generally
Cat 3 twisted pair if installed after the early 1960s.
These days, new constructions probably have twisted pair,
fiber optics as well as coaxial cables connected to them,
usually by different companies. (Note that the fiber
optics cable might not be working yet.)

The terms are that way because they developed that
way. Landline wasn't a relevant qualifier until people
started using cellphones as their only phone. (I say "wired
phone" if I need to differentiate. I think of landline as still
being a fairly recent hip slang usage, known mostly to
smartphone addicts.) Likewise, cable wasn't a relevant
qualifier until people had two ways to receive TV signals.

If those terms all seem wrong to you then there's a
simple solution: be more descriptive.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To x
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

Mayayana wrote:
| The Brits are very prone to cutesy terms. So terrestrial | may
sound a bit overly technical, but we can be grateful | they don't
call them something like "widgie" and "smidgie". | | Would you
care to give some examples?

I'm drawing a blank. That doesn't ring a bell for you? It seems to me
that Brits are often adding "ie" or coming up with quirky words,
which sound out of place in formal speech. Also with names. It seems
the more refined and stuffy a person is, the more likely they are to
have a diminutive name ending in "ie". (I once dated an English woman
whose mother had remarried into the family of a lord. The mother was
a rather stuffy, status-conscious woman. Yet she called herself
"Cherry", seemingly unaware that to an American ear that could only
refer to a stripper or cabaret dancer.

CDB:
Your para above seems to indicate that you aren't a native
English-speaker (and John Gilliver may have indicated that you are
German), so maybe you're misinterpreting. An invitation to use this
woman's nickname would have been meant as a hostess's offer of
acceptance and social equality. I don't suppose the greengrocer calls
her that.

Katy Jennison:
Crikey.

So rather like those Americans who call themselves "Randy",
seemingly unaware that to a British ear ...

CDB:
There was a Texas reality show in my TV feed for a while that featured a
Randy Farmer. He had a ranch and several children, FWIW