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Replace CPU advice



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 15th 11, 12:50 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware
JClark[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 45
Default Replace CPU advice

Hello
System summary
Asus Crosshair
AMD phenom
Windows XP Pro SP3
***********************
Question: I'm replacing my AMD CPU with a similar but not exactly the
identical one. Older one is 2.3GHZ, newer one is 2.8GHz, for example.

I have no problem with the mechanics of replacing the CPU, but I'm
wondering if any drivers, BIOS, etc need replacing.

I checked the ASUS site, and there is no newer BIOS than the one I
already have. Likewise chipset drivers are up to date in my system.

What else might I have to do when I replace the CPU?

Many thanks!

Jack
Ads
  #2  
Old March 15th 11, 01:14 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware
SC Tom[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,089
Default Replace CPU advice


"JClark" wrote in message
...
Hello
System summary
Asus Crosshair
AMD phenom
Windows XP Pro SP3
***********************
Question: I'm replacing my AMD CPU with a similar but not exactly the
identical one. Older one is 2.3GHZ, newer one is 2.8GHz, for example.

I have no problem with the mechanics of replacing the CPU, but I'm
wondering if any drivers, BIOS, etc need replacing.

I checked the ASUS site, and there is no newer BIOS than the one I
already have. Likewise chipset drivers are up to date in my system.

What else might I have to do when I replace the CPU?

Many thanks!

Jack


If all your drivers and BIOS are currently up to date, and your BIOS
supports the newer CPU, then you should have no problems at all. Don't
forget the new heat sink paste/tape :-)
--
SC Tom

  #3  
Old March 16th 11, 06:48 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware
JClark[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 45
Default Replace CPU advice

On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 08:14:20 -0400, "SC Tom" wrote:


"JClark" wrote in message
.. .
Hello
System summary
Asus Crosshair
AMD phenom
Windows XP Pro SP3
***********************
Question: I'm replacing my AMD CPU with a similar but not exactly the
identical one. Older one is 2.3GHZ, newer one is 2.8GHz, for example.

I have no problem with the mechanics of replacing the CPU, but I'm
wondering if any drivers, BIOS, etc need replacing.

I checked the ASUS site, and there is no newer BIOS than the one I
already have. Likewise chipset drivers are up to date in my system.

What else might I have to do when I replace the CPU?

Many thanks!

Jack


If all your drivers and BIOS are currently up to date, and your BIOS
supports the newer CPU, then you should have no problems at all. Don't
forget the new heat sink paste/tape :-)

Got it! Thank you very much, SC Tom.

Jack
  #4  
Old March 16th 11, 12:03 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware
SC Tom[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,089
Default Replace CPU advice


"JClark" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 08:14:20 -0400, "SC Tom" wrote:


"JClark" wrote in message
. ..
Hello
System summary
Asus Crosshair
AMD phenom
Windows XP Pro SP3
***********************
Question: I'm replacing my AMD CPU with a similar but not exactly the
identical one. Older one is 2.3GHZ, newer one is 2.8GHz, for example.

I have no problem with the mechanics of replacing the CPU, but I'm
wondering if any drivers, BIOS, etc need replacing.

I checked the ASUS site, and there is no newer BIOS than the one I
already have. Likewise chipset drivers are up to date in my system.

What else might I have to do when I replace the CPU?

Many thanks!

Jack


If all your drivers and BIOS are currently up to date, and your BIOS
supports the newer CPU, then you should have no problems at all. Don't
forget the new heat sink paste/tape :-)

Got it! Thank you very much, SC Tom.

Jack


You're welcome. Let us know how it goes and if you see much of an increase
in overall speed.
--
SC Tom

  #5  
Old March 18th 11, 10:17 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware
JClark[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 45
Default Replace CPU advice

On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 07:03:43 -0400, "SC Tom" wrote:

Let us know how it goes and if you see much of an increase
in overall speed.

Will do. I hope to get it in this weekend. But I didn't buy the new
CPU as an upgrade for more speed. I'm just concerned that the older
one might be bad from overheating. Here's what happened:

I kept getting instant shutdowns on startup. Looking into the case, I
found the little hook on the plastic bracket which holds the heatsink
clips had broken off, making the connection loose. The thermal grease
had dried up, and the CPU must have been overheating and shutting
down.

So I thought, if I'm going to have to change the bracket, I might as
well replace the heatsink and the CPU, in case it has been damaged by
the apparent overheating. But the identical replacement CPU wasn't
available, so I got another socket AM2 CPU which just happens to be
faster. I sure hope it works with the BIOS.
Again, thanks for your advice.

Jack
  #6  
Old March 18th 11, 10:49 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,275
Default Replace CPU advice

JClark wrote:
On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 07:03:43 -0400, "SC Tom" wrote:

Let us know how it goes and if you see much of an increase
in overall speed.

Will do. I hope to get it in this weekend. But I didn't buy the new
CPU as an upgrade for more speed. I'm just concerned that the older
one might be bad from overheating. Here's what happened:

I kept getting instant shutdowns on startup. Looking into the case, I
found the little hook on the plastic bracket which holds the heatsink
clips had broken off, making the connection loose. The thermal grease
had dried up, and the CPU must have been overheating and shutting
down.

So I thought, if I'm going to have to change the bracket, I might as
well replace the heatsink and the CPU, in case it has been damaged by
the apparent overheating. But the identical replacement CPU wasn't
available, so I got another socket AM2 CPU which just happens to be
faster. I sure hope it works with the BIOS.
Again, thanks for your advice.

Jack


Modern processors, both AMD and Intel, have thermal protection that
activates before the processor gets too hot.

It's not like the older Athlon S462 processors, where they could overheat
and potentially there was nothing to stop it. Some of those old motherboards,
the only protection they had, was the BIOS using the hardware monitor to
measure the CPU temperature. Basically a software solution. If the processor
crashed, due to the rocketing temperature rise, there was no guarantee the
BIOS would be around to shut the computer off.

Now, the solution is purely hardware. A "THERMTRIP" signal is available
from the processor, and that can be used to turn off the power supply.

As a result, there is no particular reason for the old CPU to be bad.

Don't throw it out, as you might need it some day for debugging (i.e.
system won't start, you can swap in the old one and retest).

If you've damaged the retention frame, sometimes you can find new ones,
so all your "hooks" will be functional again. (Not all the replacements
are genuine ones - some are look alikes intended for some aftermarket
cooler.)

Alternately, you can find an aftermarket heatsink with screws, and if
the motherboard has screw holes, you can remove the retention frame entirely,
and use a screw mounted heatsink. So you have a couple options available
to fix it.

Paul
  #7  
Old March 18th 11, 12:31 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware
BillW50
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,556
Default Replace CPU advice

On 3/18/2011 4:49 AM, Paul wrote:
Modern processors, both AMD and Intel, have thermal protection that
activates before the processor gets too hot.

It's not like the older Athlon S462 processors, where they could overheat
and potentially there was nothing to stop it. Some of those old
motherboards,
the only protection they had, was the BIOS using the hardware monitor to
measure the CPU temperature. Basically a software solution. If the
processor
crashed, due to the rocketing temperature rise, there was no guarantee the
BIOS would be around to shut the computer off.

Now, the solution is purely hardware. A "THERMTRIP" signal is available
from the processor, and that can be used to turn off the power supply.

As a result, there is no particular reason for the old CPU to be bad.


This is very interesting. As with all of the many years of my computer
experience, only recently I am plagued by two of them.

One of my Gateway MX6124 (I have three of them) which uses a Celeron
1.5GHz. The core temp reads 10°F lower at idle than the other two. And
upwards of 40°F lower when the CPU is maxed out. I wasn't too concern at
the time, but I should have been.

After 6 weeks of gaming which kept the CPU at 100% use, the CPU started
to fail. And it is permanently damaged. You can use it to get to the
BIOS setup, but it won't boot any OS. As if you try, it will show the
blue screen before the OS loads.

Swapping the CPUs around between another MX6124, the problem switches.
Although the same machine still has low core temps. So it isn't the old
CPU that was reading the low temps. And the fan hardly ever kicks on
high because the system thinks the core is cool. So without a
motherboard replacement, I don't see this problem going away.

The second problem I recently have with overheating CPUs is on an
Alienware M9700. This uses an AMD Turion 64 ML-34. And it overheats
whenever the CPU gets heavy use. And unless Windows is running, it just
shuts down. If Windows is running it drops the core voltage (thus the
CPU runs at a slower speed) and it cools down. And it cycles back and
forth. This is okay for the web and email and all. But awful when
playing games.

I didn't find any air flow restrictions and I re-pasted it with thermal
paste (cleaned the old off with isophopol alcohol). It is much better,
but still a problem. As it used to switch to low speed at 195°F. Now it
hits 215°F before it does so. And it operates at a much cooler temp for
a given CPU usage than before.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era)
Centrino Core Duo 1.83G - 2GB - Windows XP SP3
  #8  
Old March 18th 11, 05:34 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,275
Default Replace CPU advice

BillW50 wrote:
On 3/18/2011 4:49 AM, Paul wrote:
Modern processors, both AMD and Intel, have thermal protection that
activates before the processor gets too hot.

It's not like the older Athlon S462 processors, where they could overheat
and potentially there was nothing to stop it. Some of those old
motherboards,
the only protection they had, was the BIOS using the hardware monitor to
measure the CPU temperature. Basically a software solution. If the
processor
crashed, due to the rocketing temperature rise, there was no guarantee
the
BIOS would be around to shut the computer off.

Now, the solution is purely hardware. A "THERMTRIP" signal is available
from the processor, and that can be used to turn off the power supply.

As a result, there is no particular reason for the old CPU to be bad.


This is very interesting. As with all of the many years of my computer
experience, only recently I am plagued by two of them.

One of my Gateway MX6124 (I have three of them) which uses a Celeron
1.5GHz. The core temp reads 10°F lower at idle than the other two. And
upwards of 40°F lower when the CPU is maxed out. I wasn't too concern at
the time, but I should have been.

After 6 weeks of gaming which kept the CPU at 100% use, the CPU started
to fail. And it is permanently damaged. You can use it to get to the
BIOS setup, but it won't boot any OS. As if you try, it will show the
blue screen before the OS loads.

Swapping the CPUs around between another MX6124, the problem switches.
Although the same machine still has low core temps. So it isn't the old
CPU that was reading the low temps. And the fan hardly ever kicks on
high because the system thinks the core is cool. So without a
motherboard replacement, I don't see this problem going away.

The second problem I recently have with overheating CPUs is on an
Alienware M9700. This uses an AMD Turion 64 ML-34. And it overheats
whenever the CPU gets heavy use. And unless Windows is running, it just
shuts down. If Windows is running it drops the core voltage (thus the
CPU runs at a slower speed) and it cools down. And it cycles back and
forth. This is okay for the web and email and all. But awful when
playing games.

I didn't find any air flow restrictions and I re-pasted it with thermal
paste (cleaned the old off with isophopol alcohol). It is much better,
but still a problem. As it used to switch to low speed at 195°F. Now it
hits 215°F before it does so. And it operates at a much cooler temp for
a given CPU usage than before.


I don't know if I can cover enough bases to make a cohesive answer
or not.

Processors can have more than one temperature measurement mechanism. Years
ago, a thermistor was located in the CPU socket, to measure the processor
case temperature. Inside the processor, a thermal diode on the silicon die,
is used by the processor, to monitor when to "throttle" and when to "THERMTRIP".
That means, it is possible you could have an inaccurate reading, and yet the
processor's own protection mechanisms will still be working.

Throttling is the stage before THERMTRIP. It is intended for
thermal control, when the heatsink and fan are still intact.
THERMTRIP is more for catastrophic failures, such as the heatsink
falls off, or the CPU fan is broken.

If you want to check your Celeron, you might try RMClock, which has a
number of graphs, including one which monitors the state of the Throttle
status bit.

(Article on throttling, with graphs)
http://ixbtlabs.com/articles2/cpu/in...res-core2.html

(RMClock download page "RMClock Utility 2.35" to observe throttling)
http://cpu.rightmark.org/download.shtml

*******

For your Turion, I'd examine the design carefully. Does it have
two fans, and a heatpipe assembly joining the CPU and GPU ? Or
is the CPU on it's own cooling system ? You'd probably notice,
if the fan no longer ran at the proper top speed. It wouldn't
sound right.

A possible failure mode, is a heat pipe failure. Enthusiast
aftermarket coolers, use multiple heatpipes. A loss of the working
fluid in one pipe, means the remaining pipes can continue to do their
work. Some laptops may use a single pipe in their cooling assembly - loss
of fluid there, could cause the thing to shutdown on THERMTRIP. In
terms of fluid quantity, a heatpipe only has a drop or two of
working fluid (it doesn't slosh around), something like alcohol or
water, and not necessarily sealed at 1 ATM. By using a raised or
lowered pressure, the fluid boiling point can be adjusted for the desired
temperature operating range. The inside of the heatpipe tube is sintered,
to promote capillary action, so that the heatpipe has less of a
dependency on gravity affecting performance. (Some motherboards
with heatpipes, have come close to overheating, when the motherboard
was inverted in a BTX case.)

I've only heard of a few heatpipe failures, and this was some
time ago, while the manufacturers were still learning how to
make their own pipes.

*******

One reason for the fan trip point of a laptop to change,
would be a firmware upgrade.

A while back, Nvidia had a problem with GPU underfill and solder
ball material choices. A hot GPU would eventually fail, when a
solder joint would crack from fatigue. Nvidia set aside a few
hundred million dollars, to take care of repairs.

Some of the laptop manufacturers, rather than replacing the GPUs
with something a bit better, decided instead to issue firmware updates.
The end user "sucker" who installed that, would find the laptop
would run a lot cooler, but with on average, more fan noise while
using the thing. The intention of such a fix, wasn't to guarantee
a long life for the laptop, but instead, to have the laptop fail
outside the warranty interval. This is a zero cost way for the
laptop maker to dodge any responsibility.

A couple of people have managed to fix their broken Nvidia GPUs.
That is the "Easy Bake oven" technique. For example, a high end
Nvidia graphics card is placed in a toaster oven, at perhaps a
couple hundred degrees for ten minutes. The idea is, to re-melt
the solder joints, and reform any connections that were cracked.
I haven't heard, whether any of the people who got that to work,
eventually had another failure or not. I have no idea, what
collateral damage such a procedure causes to the other components
on the video card, such as capacitors. Or whether the toaster
oven is fit to eat out of later :-)

Paul
  #9  
Old March 18th 11, 10:35 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware
BillW50
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,556
Default Replace CPU advice

Paul wrote:
I don't know if I can cover enough bases to make a cohesive answer
or not.


First of all, I want to thank you. And it is a real pleasure to chat
with somebody of your knowledge.

Processors can have more than one temperature measurement mechanism. Years
ago, a thermistor was located in the CPU socket, to measure the processor
case temperature. Inside the processor, a thermal diode on the silicon die,
is used by the processor, to monitor when to "throttle" and when to
"THERMTRIP".


I don't know if it is still true or not, but Intel measurement is on the
die itself, while AMD is elsewhere. And the AMD I am having trouble with
reads much higher now after a re-paste. Which sort of tells me the
sensor (thermal diode) isn't on the CPU. As the temps are now lower than
they were. And maxing out the CPU takes longer before it throttles down
and doesn't stay there as long.

That means, it is possible you could have an inaccurate reading, and yet
the processor's own protection mechanisms will still be working.


Yes, but the sensor (thermal diode) is on the die itself on this Intel.
And the computer thinks it is running cooler than it really is. So it
sounds like the sensor is defective in the CPU. Yet replacing the CPU
with a known good one, still reads cooler than it really is. Changing
out the heatsink and fan made no difference. So it appears something on
the motherboard is corrupting the reading.

Throttling is the stage before THERMTRIP. It is intended for
thermal control, when the heatsink and fan are still intact.
THERMTRIP is more for catastrophic failures, such as the heatsink
falls off, or the CPU fan is broken.

If you want to check your Celeron, you might try RMClock, which has a
number of graphs, including one which monitors the state of the Throttle
status bit.

(Article on throttling, with graphs)
http://ixbtlabs.com/articles2/cpu/in...res-core2.html

(RMClock download page "RMClock Utility 2.35" to observe throttling)
http://cpu.rightmark.org/download.shtml


As far as I know Celerons have no throttling. And very few of them you
can overclock or underclock (on laptops anyway). Although this one I am
on now can. It is a 900MHz Celeron currently running at 633MHz.

*******

For your Turion, I'd examine the design carefully. Does it have
two fans, and a heatpipe assembly joining the CPU and GPU ? Or
is the CPU on it's own cooling system ? You'd probably notice,
if the fan no longer ran at the proper top speed. It wouldn't
sound right.


It has separate heatsinks and fans for the GPUs and CPU. This one has
two GPUs in SLI mode for faster graphics. Kind of like dual core GPU.
And since I just purchased it used, I couldn't tell you if the fan speed
sounds right or not. And I think I'll double check the fins once again.
As they looked good on the outside but deep inside I am not too sure. I
could feel air threw the fins, but that doesn't mean much.

A possible failure mode, is a heat pipe failure. Enthusiast
aftermarket coolers, use multiple heatpipes. A loss of the working
fluid in one pipe, means the remaining pipes can continue to do their
work. Some laptops may use a single pipe in their cooling assembly - loss
of fluid there, could cause the thing to shutdown on THERMTRIP. In
terms of fluid quantity, a heatpipe only has a drop or two of
working fluid (it doesn't slosh around), something like alcohol or
water, and not necessarily sealed at 1 ATM. By using a raised or
lowered pressure, the fluid boiling point can be adjusted for the desired
temperature operating range. The inside of the heatpipe tube is sintered,
to promote capillary action, so that the heatpipe has less of a
dependency on gravity affecting performance. (Some motherboards
with heatpipes, have come close to overheating, when the motherboard
was inverted in a BTX case.)

I've only heard of a few heatpipe failures, and this was some
time ago, while the manufacturers were still learning how to
make their own pipes.


Oh I had no idea that they can fail. Unless they were punctured or
something. The CPU has one heatpipe and the GPUs have one for each GPU.
And luckily the heatsink/fans are dirt cheap used for this model.

*******

One reason for the fan trip point of a laptop to change,
would be a firmware upgrade.

A while back, Nvidia had a problem with GPU underfill and solder
ball material choices. A hot GPU would eventually fail, when a
solder joint would crack from fatigue. Nvidia set aside a few
hundred million dollars, to take care of repairs.

Some of the laptop manufacturers, rather than replacing the GPUs
with something a bit better, decided instead to issue firmware updates.
The end user "sucker" who installed that, would find the laptop
would run a lot cooler, but with on average, more fan noise while
using the thing. The intention of such a fix, wasn't to guarantee
a long life for the laptop, but instead, to have the laptop fail
outside the warranty interval. This is a zero cost way for the
laptop maker to dodge any responsibility.


Yes I remember. Although those Gateway MX6124 has the same BIOS version.
And I don't have this version of the BIOS to reflash in case that one
that has trouble is somehow corrupt. Although since the other two works
fine, I should be able to copy their BIOS and to reflash the bad one. I
don't think it would matter, but something to try.

A couple of people have managed to fix their broken Nvidia GPUs.
That is the "Easy Bake oven" technique. For example, a high end
Nvidia graphics card is placed in a toaster oven, at perhaps a
couple hundred degrees for ten minutes. The idea is, to re-melt
the solder joints, and reform any connections that were cracked.
I haven't heard, whether any of the people who got that to work,
eventually had another failure or not. I have no idea, what
collateral damage such a procedure causes to the other components
on the video card, such as capacitors. Or whether the toaster
oven is fit to eat out of later :-)


I to heard somebody having a bad Nvidia on a laptop motherboard. And he
placed it into the oven for 10 minutes (350F I think). He figured he had
nothing to loose. And he reported it worked. Although I never heard
anymore. It could have died the very next day for all I know.

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 702G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
Ubuntu 9.10 Netbook Remix Linux
  #10  
Old March 18th 11, 11:49 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware
JClark[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 45
Default Replace CPU advice

On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 05:49:43 -0400, Paul wrote:

Don't throw it out, as you might need it some day for debugging (i.e.
system won't start, you can swap in the old one and retest).

Good advice. I had planned to keep it. Actually, when I first got the
MB, the BIOS did not support the processor I had bought, and I
couldn't even get far enough in the boot process to flash the BIOS. So
I had to use an older CPU which was supported by the installed BIOS to
get it running and do the BIOS upgrade, then I could change to the
newer CPU. Tricky.

screw mounted heatsink. So you have a couple options available
to fix it.

Well, with the new heatsink I bought, there are several brackets. So
I'll just have to get into it and see what I need. But I should have
all the stuff now to get the job done.

Thanks, Paul.

Jack
  #11  
Old March 18th 11, 11:50 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware
JClark[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 45
Default Replace CPU advice

On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 06:31:01 -0500, BillW50 wrote:

If Windows is running it drops the core voltage (thus the
CPU runs at a slower speed)

That's interesting! I wonder if I've been experiencing that issue as
well as the current one.
Jack
  #12  
Old March 19th 11, 12:30 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware
BillW50
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,556
Default Replace CPU advice

On 3/18/2011 5:50 PM, JClark wrote:
On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 06:31:01 -0500, wrote:

If Windows is running it drops the core voltage (thus the
CPU runs at a slower speed)

That's interesting! I wonder if I've been experiencing that issue as
well as the current one.
Jack


Could be. It sure catches you by surprise when you are not expecting it.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era)
Centrino Core Duo 1.83G - 2GB - Windows XP SP3
 




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