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#1
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Router going bad?
So I've had this particular router for only a few years, a Dlink
DIR-850L rev B. Here's the background to the story. Recently I'd been finding that I've been experiencing unexplained random non-connections to websites. Not disconnections, where you would see a message saying that connection to the Internet has gone down, just non-connections, everything looks fine, there's no indication of the connection dropping, but just that many requests to do something on the Internet would time out. Even websites you're currently connected to any clicking on them would stop responding. These time outs would last about 5 minutes at most, and then start working again. So initially, I opened up tech support cases with my VPN provider and my ISP. The ISP helped narrow it down to the router. After I connected my desktop directly to the modem, I tried a few tests and found that certain network speed tests even increased in speed by a factor of 10x! Now, I've noticed this speed test deficiency for a number of months, even before this timeout issue. The timeout issue has only been a thing for less than a month. I didn't think they were both related to the router. I had blamed the ISP for this, but it looks like they had nothing to do with it, it was my router all along. So I used this speed test method to determine if the router was experiencing a problem or not, from this point forward. Afterwards, I flashed the router firmware to the latest version available. And tried it again. I had about 5 firmware updates I had to go through serially, as each firmware required the previous version to be installed first. I retested the speed, and each firmware seemed to increase the speed back up to what I should expect, what I got when I had my desktop directly connected to the modem. This only lasted 10 minutes, and then subsequent tests had the speed tests back down to where they used to be before. Is it possible that the router's WAN port is switching down to a slower speed Ethernet connection (e.g. 10 Mbps Ethernet vs. 100 or 1000 Mbps)? This only happens during the speed tests, other activities seem to happen without affecting the speed at all. Also another weird thing, when I run the speed tests through a VPN server, I get pretty close to full speed too, even though it's still going through the same router. Yousuf Khan |
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#2
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Router going bad?
Okay never mind all of that below. I just figured out what the issue
was. I guess in the process of writing out the problem, the solution ticked inside my brain. What seems to have happened is that the problem came from the router's QoS Engine (Quality of Service) settings. I think I must've set this up years ago, and promptly forgot about it. I took a look inside it, and the speeds were set to 8 mbps down and 2 mbps up, which were probably the speeds of a previous ISP package that I had years ago. I set the speeds to my current service speeds (75 and 10), and actually removed all machines from being controlled by the QoS engine (just to be sure), so speeds are back up to normal! Yousuf Khan On 7/13/2020 8:53 AM, Yousuf Khan wrote: So I've had this particular router for only a few years, a Dlink DIR-850L rev B. Here's the background to the story. Recently I'd been finding that I've been experiencing unexplained random non-connections to websites. Not disconnections, where you would see a message saying that connection to the Internet has gone down, just non-connections, everything looks fine, there's no indication of the connection dropping, but just that many requests to do something on the Internet would time out. Even websites you're currently connected to any clicking on them would stop responding. These time outs would last about 5 minutes at most, and then start working again. So initially, I opened up tech support cases with my VPN provider and my ISP. The ISP helped narrow it down to the router.Â* After I connected my desktop directly to the modem, I tried a few tests and found that certain network speed tests even increased in speed by a factor of 10x! Now, I've noticed this speed test deficiency for a number of months, even before this timeout issue. The timeout issue has only been a thing for less than a month. I didn't think they were both related to the router. I had blamed the ISP for this, but it looks like they had nothing to do with it, it was my router all along. So I used this speed test method to determine if the router was experiencing a problem or not, from this point forward. Afterwards, I flashed the router firmware to the latest version available. And tried it again. I had about 5 firmware updates I had to go through serially, as each firmware required the previous version to be installed first. I retested the speed, and each firmware seemed to increase the speed back up to what I should expect, what I got when I had my desktop directly connected to the modem. This only lasted 10 minutes, and then subsequent tests had the speed tests back down to where they used to be before. Is it possible that the router's WAN port is switching down to a slower speed Ethernet connection (e.g. 10 Mbps Ethernet vs. 100 or 1000 Mbps)? This only happens during the speed tests, other activities seem to happen without affecting the speed at all. Also another weird thing, when I run the speed tests through a VPN server, I get pretty close to full speed too, even though it's still going through the same router. Â*Â*Â*Â*Yousuf Khan |
#3
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Router going bad?
Yousuf Khan wrote:
Okay never mind all of that below. I just figured out what the issue was. I guess in the process of writing out the problem, the solution ticked inside my brain. What seems to have happened is that the problem came from the router's QoS Engine (Quality of Service) settings. I think I must've set this up years ago, and promptly forgot about it. When you have a major problem like that, if you cannot get the device to work, you should try a complete reset. Blackbox Technician 101. |
#4
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Router going bad?
On 7/13/2020 11:51 AM, John Doe wrote:
Yousuf Khan wrote: Okay never mind all of that below. I just figured out what the issue was. I guess in the process of writing out the problem, the solution ticked inside my brain. What seems to have happened is that the problem came from the router's QoS Engine (Quality of Service) settings. I think I must've set this up years ago, and promptly forgot about it. When you have a major problem like that, if you cannot get the device to work, you should try a complete reset. Blackbox Technician 101. Well, I didn't even know that it was the problem until yesterday. So fortunately I didn't have to just do a complete reset, just figured out the actual problem, and fixed it. Yousuf Khan |
#5
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Router going bad?
If there is no good reason not to do a complete reset, you should do
that. Then you don't have to tax your little brain. Allegedly "figuring it out" didn't do anything better than a complete reset. Other settings pitfalls your little brain doesn't remember might pop up later. Yousuf Khan wrote: On 7/13/2020 11:51 AM, John Doe wrote: Yousuf Khan wrote: Okay never mind all of that below. I just figured out what the issue was. I guess in the process of writing out the problem, the solution ticked inside my brain. What seems to have happened is that the problem came from the router's QoS Engine (Quality of Service) settings. I think I must've set this up years ago, and promptly forgot about it. When you have a major problem like that, if you cannot get the device to work, you should try a complete reset. Blackbox Technician 101. Well, I didn't even know that it was the problem until yesterday. So fortunately I didn't have to just do a complete reset, just figured out the actual problem, and fixed it. Yousuf Khan |
#6
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Router going bad?
On 7/13/2020 2:04 PM, John Doe wrote:
If there is no good reason not to do a complete reset, you should do that. Then you don't have to tax your little brain. Allegedly "figuring it out" didn't do anything better than a complete reset. Other settings pitfalls your little brain doesn't remember might pop up later. Yeah, but there is now additional knowledge in the little brain that it didn't have before. Sometimes problems arise even if you leave everything at default, and knowing this additional knowledge might help in debugging even that stuff. |
#7
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Router going bad?
Yousuf Khan wrote:
So I've had this particular router for only a few years, a Dlink DIR-850L rev B. Here's the background to the story. Recently I'd been finding that I've been experiencing unexplained random non-connections to websites. Not disconnections, where you would see a message saying that connection to the Internet has gone down, just non-connections, everything looks fine, there's no indication of the connection dropping, but just that many requests to do something on the Internet would time out. Even websites you're currently connected to any clicking on them would stop responding. These time outs would last about 5 minutes at most, and then start working again. So initially, I opened up tech support cases with my VPN provider and my ISP. The ISP helped narrow it down to the router. After I connected my desktop directly to the modem, I tried a few tests and found that certain network speed tests even increased in speed by a factor of 10x! Now, I've noticed this speed test deficiency for a number of months, even before this timeout issue. The timeout issue has only been a thing for less than a month. I didn't think they were both related to the router. I had blamed the ISP for this, but it looks like they had nothing to do with it, it was my router all along. So I used this speed test method to determine if the router was experiencing a problem or not, from this point forward. Afterwards, I flashed the router firmware to the latest version available. And tried it again. I had about 5 firmware updates I had to go through serially, as each firmware required the previous version to be installed first. I retested the speed, and each firmware seemed to increase the speed back up to what I should expect, what I got when I had my desktop directly connected to the modem. This only lasted 10 minutes, and then subsequent tests had the speed tests back down to where they used to be before. Is it possible that the router's WAN port is switching down to a slower speed Ethernet connection (e.g. 10 Mbps Ethernet vs. 100 or 1000 Mbps)? This only happens during the speed tests, other activities seem to happen without affecting the speed at all. Also another weird thing, when I run the speed tests through a VPN server, I get pretty close to full speed too, even though it's still going through the same router. I've found routers can go flaky eventually. They have a processor that generates heat but routers only use convection for cooling which is ineffecient and depends on air flow which is minimal through the holes the case. There is no fan to force an air flow. The processor gets damaged due to heat that is not immediately dissipated. Routers should never be stacked and the vent holes should never get blocked. In fact, ventilation is so poor that after the warranty expires I drill out the holes in the case to improve ventilation. The processor eventually burns up, but it gets flaky before then. I've had Dlinks and they lasted about 3 years. Linksys seem to last a lot longer. The only reason why I got Dlinks was because they were cheaper and had a couple more firewall functions than Linksys. After having to replace a few Dlinks, I decided to stick with Linksys. Reliability is more important, to me, than extra features that may not get used, and having to replace sooner the Dlinks nullified their cheaper cost. While there are plenty of online articles benchmarking and reviewing various routers, I've not seen any that test durability since that takes years (premature aging by deliberate overheating may not be a stable benchmark, and doesn't represent typical use, but may represent abusive use). Most of my experience with Linksys was before Cisco bought them. Used to be they were tops. Now there is a large disparity in lifespan between the high- and low-end models. Their low-end models are typical to high- and low-end models of other brands. In any case, figure on replacing a router at about 3 to 5 years, or soon if it goes flaky. So, don't spend a lot on features you won't use. Computing, and especially Internet, isn't for the dirt poor. Replacing routers is a cost of having the privilege. At home, I don't bother using a router since one is built into the combo router+modem that I lease from my ISP (instead of buying one and having to buy another after 3-5 years, or so, and I can walk into their store to swap it out). Since a direct connect from host to modem showed no problems, and especially with a speed boost with the direct connection, and with the gradually flaky connections, I'd replace the router. However, the modem is very likely a combo unit: router + modem. Unless you are subnetting, or need more ports than the cable modem offers (assuming you aren't using any wifi connects to it), do you really need a separate router? If so, you can get just a wired router if the cable modem has wifi connectivity (and you don't need those connections going through your router). The direct connect from host to cable modem means you're using the router integral to the cable modem, so that router is working okay. |
#8
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Router going bad?
Yousuf Khan wrote:
Okay never mind all of that below. I just figured out what the issue was. I guess in the process of writing out the problem, the solution ticked inside my brain. What seems to have happened is that the problem came from the router's QoS Engine (Quality of Service) settings. I think I must've set this up years ago, and promptly forgot about it. I took a look inside it, and the speeds were set to 8 mbps down and 2 mbps up, which were probably the speeds of a previous ISP package that I had years ago. I set the speeds to my current service speeds (75 and 10), and actually removed all machines from being controlled by the QoS engine (just to be sure), so speeds are back up to normal! QoS can prioritize the type of traffic. You can also up QoS priority for a port. So, for example, VOIP connected to a port on the router would get higher priority than other traffic. That would affect the other ports or wifi connects to the router only during VOIP calls. If I'm on a call, I'm far less focused on using the computer to generate traffic from that source. Why would you use QoS to throttle the effective bandwidth through the router instead of getting whatever is the max provisioned in the cable modem? You cannot get more than what they provision for bonding a number of channels to aggregate to the contracted bandwidth that you're paying for. Perhaps if you were using a ourter for subnetting your intranet, and wanted one subnet to get slower bandwidth, like you don't want the kids sucking up all the bandwidth with video downloads, might it make sense to throttle bandwidth below anything below the max you can get. However, in that case, I would instead set QoS to low priority on those less critical hosts using their MAC address, and set high priority on the VOIP adapter's port and my own host (I'm paying for it all, after all). Whether you use QoS depends on if you really have a need. The QoS option is to help prioritize network traffic, but is only effective on really crowded networks where some hosts or protocols are more important than others. However, QoS too often slows down the important connections, misidentifies devices or the types of protocols to prioritize, and can cripple upload speeds. Do you really have to use QoS at all? QoS can cause more problems than it causes. After using VOIP for many months, I found no degenerative artificats if I disabled QoS for the VOIP port on the router. No need to employ logic that doesn't always work, especiall when it isn't needed. QoS isn't the same on every router. Each brand has their own algorithms. There is no standard QoS protocol or algorithm. |
#9
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Router going bad?
On Mon, 13 Jul 2020 09:27:34 -0400, Yousuf Khan wrote:
Okay never mind all of that below. I just figured out what the issue was. I guess in the process of writing out the problem, the solution ticked inside my brain. What seems to have happened is that the problem came from the router's QoS Engine (Quality of Service) settings. Thanks for letting us know. I'd been scratching my head to think what might explain the symptoms you were seeing. Hooray that the problem turned out to be one with an easy fix! -- Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/ https://OakRoadSystems.com/ Shikata ga nai... |
#10
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Router going bad?
On 7/13/2020 5:53 AM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
So I've had this particular router for only a few years, a Dlink DIR-850L rev B. Here's the background to the story. Recently I'd been finding that I've been experiencing unexplained random non-connections to websites. Not disconnections, where you would see a message saying that connection to the Internet has gone down, just non-connections, everything looks fine, there's no indication of the connection dropping, but just that many requests to do something on the Internet would time out. Even websites you're currently connected to any clicking on them would stop responding. These time outs would last about 5 minutes at most, and then start working again. So initially, I opened up tech support cases with my VPN provider and my ISP. The ISP helped narrow it down to the router. After I connected my desktop directly to the modem, I tried a few tests and found that certain network speed tests even increased in speed by a factor of 10x! Now, I've noticed this speed test deficiency for a number of months, even before this timeout issue. The timeout issue has only been a thing for less than a month. I didn't think they were both related to the router. I had blamed the ISP for this, but it looks like they had nothing to do with it, it was my router all along. So I used this speed test method to determine if the router was experiencing a problem or not, from this point forward. Afterwards, I flashed the router firmware to the latest version available. And tried it again. I had about 5 firmware updates I had to go through serially, as each firmware required the previous version to be installed first. I retested the speed, and each firmware seemed to increase the speed back up to what I should expect, what I got when I had my desktop directly connected to the modem. This only lasted 10 minutes, and then subsequent tests had the speed tests back down to where they used to be before. Is it possible that the router's WAN port is switching down to a slower speed Ethernet connection (e.g. 10 Mbps Ethernet vs. 100 or 1000 Mbps)? This only happens during the speed tests, other activities seem to happen without affecting the speed at all. Also another weird thing, when I run the speed tests through a VPN server, I get pretty close to full speed too, even though it's still going through the same router. Yousuf Khan I have found that routers can be easily damaged by power fluctuations. An outage by Southern California Edison (SoCalEd) destroyed my prior router. I submitted a claim for the cost of a new router, but they denied it. SoCalEd fails at any time of the year, thus not being weather-related. When that happens, I now rush to unplug my router (and also my modem). When power is restored, I wait a few minutes to make sure it is not temporary before plugging in my modem and then my router. My Netgear WNR2000v5 router is now 4.5 years old and still works very well. -- David E. Ross http://www.rossde.com/ Trump describes statues of Confederate military as memorials to heroes, representing our values. Those who took up arms against our national government during the Civil War were NOT heroes. They were traitors who committee treason. |
#11
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Router going bad?
"David E. Ross" wrote:
On 7/13/2020 5:53 AM, Yousuf Khan wrote: So I've had this particular router for only a few years, a Dlink DIR-850L rev B. Here's the background to the story. Recently I'd been finding that I've been experiencing unexplained random non-connections to websites. Not disconnections, where you would see a message saying that connection to the Internet has gone down, just non-connections, everything looks fine, there's no indication of the connection dropping, but just that many requests to do something on the Internet would time out. Even websites you're currently connected to any clicking on them would stop responding. These time outs would last about 5 minutes at most, and then start working again. So initially, I opened up tech support cases with my VPN provider and my ISP. The ISP helped narrow it down to the router. After I connected my desktop directly to the modem, I tried a few tests and found that certain network speed tests even increased in speed by a factor of 10x! Now, I've noticed this speed test deficiency for a number of months, even before this timeout issue. The timeout issue has only been a thing for less than a month. I didn't think they were both related to the router. I had blamed the ISP for this, but it looks like they had nothing to do with it, it was my router all along. So I used this speed test method to determine if the router was experiencing a problem or not, from this point forward. Afterwards, I flashed the router firmware to the latest version available. And tried it again. I had about 5 firmware updates I had to go through serially, as each firmware required the previous version to be installed first. I retested the speed, and each firmware seemed to increase the speed back up to what I should expect, what I got when I had my desktop directly connected to the modem. This only lasted 10 minutes, and then subsequent tests had the speed tests back down to where they used to be before. Is it possible that the router's WAN port is switching down to a slower speed Ethernet connection (e.g. 10 Mbps Ethernet vs. 100 or 1000 Mbps)? This only happens during the speed tests, other activities seem to happen without affecting the speed at all. Also another weird thing, when I run the speed tests through a VPN server, I get pretty close to full speed too, even though it's still going through the same router. Yousuf Khan I have found that routers can be easily damaged by power fluctuations. An outage by Southern California Edison (SoCalEd) destroyed my prior router. I submitted a claim for the cost of a new router, but they denied it. SoCalEd fails at any time of the year, thus not being weather-related. When that happens, I now rush to unplug my router (and also my modem). When power is restored, I wait a few minutes to make sure it is not temporary before plugging in my modem and then my router. My Netgear WNR2000v5 router is now 4.5 years old and still works very well. Since I have a UPS on my computer, I also got another (smaller one) to use with the cable modem (and router, if I had one). That way, I have some time to gracefully close any documents along with polishing off anything over the network (my ISP rarely goes out because my house lost power) and a graceful shutdown along with a clean power off rather than spiking the stuff due to an outage. Just because you don't have any motors running at the time of an outage, nearby commercial businesses may be running huge motors, like to generate 3-phase A/C. When there's a power outage, the motors don't immediately stop and instead shove a surge back on the supply, so you could experience a surge on an outage. I configure the UPSes (and my gear if it has the option, like the BIOS for the computer) to *not* restore power when the outage is over. Too many times the power comes on, and then goes off. It's even flickered on and off very rapidly. I don't want my gear suffering all those spikey fluctuations. |
#12
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Router going bad?
On 7/13/2020 7:49 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jul 2020 09:27:34 -0400, Yousuf Khan wrote: Okay never mind all of that below. I just figured out what the issue was. I guess in the process of writing out the problem, the solution ticked inside my brain. What seems to have happened is that the problem came from the router's QoS Engine (Quality of Service) settings. Thanks for letting us know. I'd been scratching my head to think what might explain the symptoms you were seeing. Hooray that the problem turned out to be one with an easy fix! Well, not an easy fix, it was hidden in plain sight, until it was rediscovered. The major time consumer was the rediscovery of the feature. Yousuf Khan |
#13
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Router going bad?
On 7/13/2020 6:33 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
QoS can prioritize the type of traffic. You can also up QoS priority for a port. So, for example, VOIP connected to a port on the router would get higher priority than other traffic. That would affect the other ports or wifi connects to the router only during VOIP calls. If I'm on a call, I'm far less focused on using the computer to generate traffic from that source. Why would you use QoS to throttle the effective bandwidth through the router instead of getting whatever is the max provisioned in the cable modem? Judging by the very slow speeds that I had configured the maximum downlink and uplink speeds (8 & 2 mbps) back then, it must have been at a time when I had some severe bandwidth limitations! ISP prices came down, I literally have 10x that amount of bandwidth nowadays. However, after setting it then I had forgotten I had ever set it. Back then, the bandwidth must have been getting severely limited with all of the machines and devices in the house sharing the same pipe. So I had set it up so that my own machine would get the higher priority. Now there's obviously no need for it anymore. I don't even remember how long ago it must've been since I had that bandwidth level. I know I had a later speed package that was 5x as fast as that, and since then I've gotten another doubling of speed to 10x as fast. Never bothered looking at those settings since, since everything seemed to work as expected. Those slow network speed tests were weird of course, but actual bandwidth was just fine. Also I was using a VPN regularly by then, so it looks like the QoS engine can't figure out what's going on when there's an encrypted data flow. I've found routers can go flaky eventually. They have a processor that generates heat but routers only use convection for cooling which is ineffecient and depends on air flow which is minimal through the holes the case. There is no fan to force an air flow. The processor gets damaged due to heat that is not immediately dissipated. It's possible that the processor was overheating just trying to limit the bandwidth down to 1/10th of its rated speed. It must've been like a little beaver dam trying hold back a major river, it was getting swamped. It must've been trying to insert time delays into the data flow. Hopefully, this may even take care of the timeout problems I was seeing recently. Yousuf Khan |
#14
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Router going bad?
On Tue, 14 Jul 2020 08:49:24 -0400, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 7/13/2020 7:49 PM, Stan Brown wrote: [quoted text muted] Thanks for letting us know. I'd been scratching my head to think what might explain the symptoms you were seeing. Hooray that the problem turned out to be one with an easy fix! Well, not an easy fix, it was hidden in plain sight, until it was rediscovered. The major time consumer was the rediscovery of the feature. Right -- I wasn't saying that the problem was easy to find, just that the fix was easy one you found it. -- Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/ https://OakRoadSystems.com/ Shikata ga nai... |
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