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#1
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Microcode Update?
Anyone here know how microcode updates work with modern processors?
Over the last few weeks, we have all seen the discussion of the microcode bug that can be mitigated by OS updates which have the side effect of slowing the processor. That, I understand. However, I have also seen references to microcode updates released by, for example, Intel for their processors. How do those get installed? How can software running on a processor update the very microcode being used to run the software? I must be missing something. Pat |
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#2
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Microcode Update?
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 09:52:38 -0500, Pat wrote:
Anyone here know how microcode updates work with modern processors? Over the last few weeks, we have all seen the discussion of the microcode bug that can be mitigated by OS updates which have the side effect of slowing the processor. That, I understand. However, I have also seen references to microcode updates released by, for example, Intel for their processors. How do those get installed? How can software running on a processor update the very microcode being used to run the software? I must be missing something. In Windows, as far as I know, the microcode software and updates are taken care of by Intel, deployed to Microsoft and later provided as a regular system update. In Linux, it's not loaded by default as far as I know because of the fact that this code is proprietary and therefore not necessarily wanted. |
#3
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Microcode Update?
Pat wrote:
Anyone here know how microcode updates work with modern processors? They can be installed from the BIOS, or failing that the O/S can update it after being booted by the BIOS. I have an ASRock motherboard that no longer seems to receive BIOS updates, but the Linux kernel replaces the microcode (every time it starts, it isn't stored permanently in the CPU), I recently got a new microcode for the spectre mitigation # dmesg | grep -i microcode [ 0.000000] microcode: microcode updated early to revision 0x23, date = 2017-11-20 [ 0.718520] microcode: sig=0x306c3, pf=0x2, revision=0x23 [ 0.718669] microcode: Microcode Update Driver: v2.2. Maybe some manufacturers will start re-releasing BIOS updates for older motherboards purely with updated microcode in them? |
#4
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Microcode Update?
Doomsdrzej wrote:
In Windows, as far as I know, the microcode software and updates are taken care of by Intel, deployed to Microsoft and later provided as a regular system update. That is correct. In Linux, it's not loaded by default as far as I know because of the fact that this code is proprietary and therefore not necessarily wanted. That is incorrect. |
#5
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Microcode Update?
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 17:54:17 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote: Doomsdrzej wrote: In Windows, as far as I know, the microcode software and updates are taken care of by Intel, deployed to Microsoft and later provided as a regular system update. That is correct. In Linux, it's not loaded by default as far as I know because of the fact that this code is proprietary and therefore not necessarily wanted. That is incorrect. Please correct me. The only reason I assumed that its approach was such was because Ubuntu gives the user the choice to install proprietary drivers for the Intel microcode. By default, it is either not loaded or uses free ones. Are you suggesting that it iis the latter? If so, very interesting. |
#6
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Microcode Update?
On 1/15/2018 10:37 AM, Doomsdrzej wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 17:54:17 +0000, Andy Burns wrote: Doomsdrzej wrote: In Windows, as far as I know, the microcode software and updates are taken care of by Intel, deployed to Microsoft and later provided as a regular system update. That is correct. In Linux, it's not loaded by default as far as I know because of the fact that this code is proprietary and therefore not necessarily wanted. That is incorrect. Please correct me. The only reason I assumed that its approach was such was because Ubuntu gives the user the choice to install proprietary drivers for the Intel microcode. By default, it is either not loaded or uses free ones. Are you suggesting that it iis the latter? If so, very interesting. Exactly what is microcode in this context? I always considered microcode to be stuff that's hard wired into the processor and cannot be changed. Then there's stuff that gets loaded into the device, such as a lan adapter, at every boot. It changes the operation of the device, but the actual processor is not changed. It can't permanently break the device. Then there's stuff that gets loaded with persistence, like BIOS. While it doesn't change the processor at all, it can certainly prevent the system from operating at all. I've got two win8 computers seemingly borked by that. That's two out of two win8 machines. It appears that there's a new class of microcode that can directly change persistent code within the microprocessor itself??? I don't care for stuff that can break the system and leave you zero recovery options. All the bitching and outrage notwithstanding, for the average home user, is all this really any big deal? If it ain't broke... |
#7
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Microcode Update?
Doomsdrzej wrote:
Andy Burns wrote: Doomsdrzej wrote: In Linux, it's not loaded by default as far as I know because of the fact that this code is proprietary and therefore not necessarily wanted. That is incorrect. Please correct me. The only reason I assumed that its approach was such was because Ubuntu Ubuntu (and derivatives) may choose not to to install microcode and/or device firmware by default, but other distros (e.g. RHEL/Centos/Fedora) do install it by default. |
#8
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Microcode Update?
mike wrote:
Exactly what is microcode in this context? Recent intel processors don't natively execute x86 or x86_64 instructions that compilers or humans produce, they use a lower level internal microcoded instruction set. So to a limited degree they can issue new microcode (which the CPU will only accept if it recognises a signature on it) that alters how the processor actually runs. It appears that there's a new class of microcode that can directly change persistent code within the microprocessor itself??? No intel CPU microcode needs to be loaded into the CPU at every reboot (by the BIOS, or by the O/S) all this really any big deal? If it ain't broke... You don't regard meltdown and/or spectre as evidence of breakage? |
#9
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Microcode Update?
Andy Burns wrote:
Pat wrote: Anyone here know how microcode updates work with modern processors? They can be installed from the BIOS, or failing that the O/S can update it after being booted by the BIOS. I have an ASRock motherboard that no longer seems to receive BIOS updates, but the Linux kernel replaces the microcode (every time it starts, it isn't stored permanently in the CPU), I recently got a new microcode for the spectre mitigation # dmesg | grep -i microcode [ 0.000000] microcode: microcode updated early to revision 0x23, date = 2017-11-20 [ 0.718520] microcode: sig=0x306c3, pf=0x2, revision=0x23 [ 0.718669] microcode: Microcode Update Driver: v2.2. Maybe some manufacturers will start re-releasing BIOS updates for older motherboards purely with updated microcode in them? I wonder if mine is good or bad in Debian oldstable/Jessie on a very old Intel desktop PC: $ dmesg | grep -i microcode [ 0.512047] microcode: CPU0 sig=0x10677, pf=0x10, revision=0x705 [ 0.512055] microcode: CPU1 sig=0x10677, pf=0x10, revision=0x705 [ 0.512072] microcode: CPU2 sig=0x10677, pf=0x10, revision=0x705 [ 0.512086] microcode: CPU3 sig=0x10677, pf=0x10, revision=0x705 [ 0.512182] microcode: Microcode Update Driver: v2.00 , Peter Oruba -- Quote of the Week: "Did the ant fall off the toilet seat because she was ****ed off?" --unknown Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly. /\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org / /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit- | |o o| | ing, then please kindly use Ant nickname and URL/link. \ _ / ( ) |
#10
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Microcode Update?
Ant wrote:
microcode: CPU0 sig=0x10677 revision=0x705 which seems to be from 2008-04-28 Whatever CPU that is, I think the latest microcode update was 2010-09-29 rev 0x070a |
#11
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Microcode Update?
On 1/15/2018 11:54 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
mike wrote: Exactly what is microcode in this context? Recent intel processors don't natively execute x86 or x86_64 instructions that compilers or humans produce, they use a lower level internal microcoded instruction set.Â* So to a limited degree they can issue new microcode (which the CPU will only accept if it recognises a signature on it) that alters how the processor actually runs. It appears that there's a new class of microcode that can directly change persistent code within the microprocessor itself??? No intel CPU microcode needs to be loaded into the CPU at every reboot (by the BIOS, or by the O/S) Part of the BIOS is microcode for each processor it can handle. I have gone through the process of modifying the BIOS for motherboards to allow them to handle processors they were not designed for. I would think this is the microcode they are talking about. |
#12
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Microcode Update?
Bob F wrote:
Andy Burns wrote: intel CPU microcode needs to be loaded into the CPU at every reboot (by the BIOS, or by the O/S) Part of the BIOS is microcode for each processor it can handle. But the microcode in the BIOS likely isn't updated after a few years, if ever (normal people don't update their BIOS) the microcode in the O/S may well be newer. I have gone through the process of modifying the BIOS for motherboards to allow them to handle processors they were not designed for. I would think this is the microcode they are talking about. It is, but most people couldn't update the microcode area within a BIOS update and apply it without bricking their PC. |
#13
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Microcode Update?
Pat wrote:
Anyone here know how microcode updates work with modern processors? Over the last few weeks, we have all seen the discussion of the microcode bug that can be mitigated by OS updates which have the side effect of slowing the processor. That, I understand. However, I have also seen references to microcode updates released by, for example, Intel for their processors. How do those get installed? How can software running on a processor update the very microcode being used to run the software? I must be missing something. Pat The general rule for Spectre/Meltdown Intel releases the microcode update The OEM(pc manufacturer) or mobo manufacturer releases the UEFI/BIOS or BIOS update accommodating the microcode update The system end-user installs/updates the UEFI/BIOS or BIOS Bottom line - Not all devices will receive or be able to update UEFI/BIOS or BIOS for all Intel released microcode updates for two simple reasons - Firmware updates is not an in perpetuity support requirement and OEM or Mobo manufacturers' are not going to attempt to update all impacted(Spectre/Meltdown vulnerable) hardware on the planet. Microsoft, in fact, may not release firmware updates for all of its own released hardware using Intel, ARM or Atom chipsets(e.g. Surface, XBox, etc. products) -- ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ msft mvp windows experience 2007-2016, insider mvp 2016-2018 |
#14
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Microcode Update?
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
Not all devices will receive or be able to update UEFI/BIOS or BIOS for all Intel released microcode updates Firmware updates (being hardware specific) aren't required in order to get "sticky" microcode updates, the O/S can directly update the microcode at every boot instead. |
#15
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Microcode Update?
On 2018-01-16, Andy Burns wrote:
...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote: Not all devices will receive or be able to update UEFI/BIOS or BIOS for all Intel released microcode updates Firmware updates (being hardware specific) aren't required in order to get "sticky" microcode updates, the O/S can directly update the microcode at every boot instead. That is what I do... -- press any key to continue or any other to quit... |
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