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How to set "Verify On" at XP startup ?



 
 
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  #31  
Old December 9th 08, 12:54 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows-xp,microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion,comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.win32
John John (MVP)
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Posts: 2,010
Default How to set "Verify On" at XP startup ?

Scott Seligman wrote:

"John John (MVP)" wrote:

You are the one who said that Xcopy does thing differently with the /v
switch than it does without, not me. All I am telling you is that the
/v switch is only accepted for compatibility with MS-DOS and that if it
"appears" to be doing things differently it is only a "smoke show" to
fool MS-DOS applications into believing that the switch actually does
something.



It does something different, even if it's trivial. It can in fact cause
Xcopy to return an error as it checks the file size. If you refuse to
believe me and refuse to see for yourself, then I can't help you. The
switch is clearly not ignored. I've proven that to you, and you ignored
the evidence, and the offer to see the Detours test that shows the error
Xcopy can raise only with the /V switch.

Once again, I've shown you a different set of APIs that Xcopy calls
when you give it the /V switch. Do you think I'm making up test
results?


All of the Microsoft documentation on this switch clearly
states that the switch is ignored (does nothing) and that what the
switch is supposed to do is already inherent to the operating system,
that Xcopy does this automatically with or without the switch.



The documentation is wrong, then (or Xcopy has a bug, pick one, I
don't care). Maybe NT does do some sort of verify when it writes,
though I've never seen this documented in WriteFile() and friends, and
I just missing it in the API documentation?


If you think that there is a bug in Xcopy then submit your bug to Microsoft.

The API's might be documented but what the operating system does with
the API calls after it receives them is mostly a closely guarded secret,
how files are really copied and verified deep down inside the operating
system is probably not something that programmers need to know so unless
you want to sign a Non Disclosure Agreement Microsoft will probably not
tell you what goes on after the API call is made.

The Xcopy /v switch information has been consistent for more than 10
years now, from at least NT 4.0 up to and including Server 2003 *all*
the documentation has stated the same thing about the switch's usage.
If you think that Microsoft has been wrong about this all along then
here again I submit that you should contact them and ask them to correct
the errors in their documentation, they may ignore requests to correct
documentation about old Windows versions but I am sure that they would
certainly correct Server 2003 documentation. Until they correct their
documentation I will continue to believe what they say about the
switch's use.

John
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  #32  
Old December 9th 08, 01:02 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows-xp,microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion,comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.win32
Scott Seligman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default How to set "Verify On" at XP startup ?

"John John (MVP)" wrote:
The Xcopy /v switch information has been consistent for more than 10
years now, from at least NT 4.0 up to and including Server 2003 *all*
the documentation has stated the same thing about the switch's usage.


Not all. Xcopy /? doesn't agree with the documentation you've
referenced.

Why is one more correct than the other?

--
--------- Scott Seligman scott at firstname and michelle dot net ---------
A free society is a place where it's safe to be unpopular.
-- Adlai Stevenson
  #33  
Old December 9th 08, 01:15 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows-xp,microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion,comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.win32
J. P. Gilliver (John)
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Posts: 5,291
Default How to set "Verify On" at XP startup ?

In message , "John John (MVP)"
writes:
[]
switch than it does without, not me. All I am telling you is that the
/v switch is only accepted for compatibility with MS-DOS and that if it
"appears" to be doing things differently it is only a "smoke show" to
fool MS-DOS applications into believing that the switch actually does
something. All of the Microsoft documentation on this switch clearly
states that the switch is ignored (does nothing) and that what the
switch is supposed to do is already inherent to the operating system,
that Xcopy does this automatically with or without the switch.

[]
Surely compatibility would only be not giving an error message if you
invoke the /v switch? I find it difficult to believe they'd make the
command actually _operate_ differently (as I'm satisfied he has shown),
if compatibility was all they were worried about: surely they'd just
make it ignore whether the switch was there or not, or at least not make
it generate an error message such as "invalid switch".

Whether the command in question uses completely different code to the
copy/move functions intrinsic to the OS, I don't know.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL(+++)IS-P--Ch+(p)Ar+T[?]H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **

"Bugger," said Pooh, feeling very annoyed.
  #34  
Old December 9th 08, 07:11 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows-xp,microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion,comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.win32
John John (MVP)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,010
Default How to set "Verify On" at XP startup ?

Scott Seligman wrote:
"John John (MVP)" wrote:

The Xcopy /v switch information has been consistent for more than 10
years now, from at least NT 4.0 up to and including Server 2003 *all*
the documentation has stated the same thing about the switch's usage.



Not all. Xcopy /? doesn't agree with the documentation you've
referenced.

Why is one more correct than the other?


Microsoft will tell you that when you advise them of their documentation
error. Then they will have to package two different utilities, or two
different help files and have Xcopy figure out which help files to dish
out depending on whether the documentation is read inside the NTVDM or
at the 32-bit CLI.
  #35  
Old December 9th 08, 07:41 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows-xp,microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion,comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.win32
John John (MVP)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,010
Default How to set "Verify On" at XP startup ?

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In message , "John John (MVP)"
writes:
[]

switch than it does without, not me. All I am telling you is that the
/v switch is only accepted for compatibility with MS-DOS and that if
it "appears" to be doing things differently it is only a "smoke show"
to fool MS-DOS applications into believing that the switch actually
does something. All of the Microsoft documentation on this switch
clearly states that the switch is ignored (does nothing) and that what
the switch is supposed to do is already inherent to the operating
system, that Xcopy does this automatically with or without the switch.


[]
Surely compatibility would only be not giving an error message if you
invoke the /v switch? I find it difficult to believe they'd make the
command actually _operate_ differently (as I'm satisfied he has shown),
if compatibility was all they were worried about: surely they'd just
make it ignore whether the switch was there or not, or at least not make
it generate an error message such as "invalid switch".

Whether the command in question uses completely different code to the
copy/move functions intrinsic to the OS, I don't know.


I'm guessing, but if a 16-bit program asks to use the /v switch it might
want to wait or follow operating system routines to make sure that the
command completes successfully, as far as I'm concerned the /v switch is
just doing a smoke show to convince programs running inside the NTVDM
that the switch is doing something and to prevent the 16-bit programs
from choking. If you think its doing something else then use the switch
and be happy or join in with others and submit your findings to
Microsoft. All I know is that Microsoft has been telling us for about
15 years that the switch does nothing on NT versions up to Server 2003,
(and according to http://support.microsoft.com/kb/128756 it also doesn't
do anything on the legacy W9x systems), I'm having a hard time believing
that this information is wrong and has gone on uncorrected for that
long. On Vista and Server 2008 Microsoft simply tells us the utility is
deprecated.

John
  #36  
Old December 10th 08, 03:18 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows-xp,microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion,comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.win32
mm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 811
Default How to set "Verify On" at XP startup ?

On 8 Dec 2008 07:29:33 -0800, "Scott Seligman"
wrote:

"John John (MVP)" wrote:
Though, even with that wording it behaves the same was in XP as it
does in Vista.


No, it doesn't!


You can quote help files all day. I'm telling you what it does, where
it calls a function to verify the length, on XP and Vista, only if the
/V option is specified. Without that option, XCopy does not call the
function.

Furthermore, I just verified it really does something with the results
of that function. I used Detours to modify the behavior of the function
it's using to find the file size to return the wrong file size. Without
/V, nothing happened, since it never called the function. With /V, xcopy
reported "File verification failed.".


Well, that's not good.

This was the behavior on both XP
and Vista.

In other words, /V does in fact verify the file size (but not the file
contents) on both XP and Vista.


  #37  
Old December 13th 08, 05:46 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows-xp,microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion,comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.win32
Hari Hari Mau
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Posts: 42
Default How to set "Verify On" at XP startup ?

On Dec 8, 9:53*am, "Scott Seligman" wrote:
"John John (MVP)" wrote:

As for NT/2000/XP you can can argue all you want, unless you can provide
Microsoft documentation to refute the one that I presented you won't
convince me to that the switch works on these operating systems.


So, in other words, if the documentation is wrong, you don't care what
the programs actually do? That's fine, but I'm just pointing out what
Xcopy really does, not what the help files claim in does (Heck, even
it's own built in help claims it does something with /V, but in this
case, what it claims on XP is wrong).

I'm more than happy to agree that the switch was supposed to do
nothing at some point, but it in fact does do work.

And by
the way, your insistance that this switch does work would render your
first test (with Process Explorer/Filemon) invalid, if Xcopy does use
the switch the results aren't showing in Filemon, your test is flawed
and you have not proven that Explorer doesn't verify its file copies.


What? *I'm not talking about Explorer. *As I've mentioned it doesn't
verify the contents (as verified with Process Monitor, on XP and
Vista). *It may verify the file size, but then again, it could just be
getting the file size after the copy because it's getting the size
information when it adds a file to a list.

As for my results with Xcopy, below are two different runs. *Have you
seen something different? *As you can see, the second run gets the
file information after it's copied, and as I determined with Detours,
it actually does care if that doesn't match what it was originally.

I'd also be happy to share my Detours project if you'd like.

C:\sourcedirdir
*Volume in drive C has no label.
*Volume Serial Number is 0085-AAC7

*Directory of C:\sourcedir

12/08/2008 *09:51 AM * *DIR * * * * *.
12/08/2008 *09:51 AM * *DIR * * * * *..
12/08/2008 *09:39 AM * * * * 2,744,087 example
* * * * * * * *1 File(s) * * *2,744,087 bytes
* * * * * * * *2 Dir(s) *19,497,865,216 bytes free

C:\sourcedirxcopy * ..\testdir
1) CreateFile - C:\testdir
2) QueryDirectory - C:\testdir
3) QueryDirectory - C:\testdir
4) CloseFile - C:\testdir
5) CreateFile - C:\testdir\EXAMPLE
6) QueryDirectory - C:\testdir
7) QueryDirectory - C:\testdir
8) QueryDirectory - C:\testdir
9) CreateFile - C:\testdir
10) SetBasicInformationFile - C:\testdir
11) CloseFile - C:\testdir
12) CreateFile - C:\testdir
13) QueryDirectory - C:\testdir\example
14) CloseFile - C:\testdir
15) CreateFile - C:\testdir\example
16) CreateFile - C:\testdir
17) CloseFile - C:\testdir
18) QueryAttributeInformationVolume - C:\testdir\example
19) QueryBasicInformationFile - C:\testdir\example
20) SetEndOfFileInformationFile - C:\testdir\example
21) SetBasicInformationFile - C:\testdir\example
22) WriteFile - C:\testdir\example
23) ... WriteFile repeated ... - C:\testdir\example
63) WriteFile - C:\testdir\example
64) SetBasicInformationFile - C:\testdir\example
65) CloseFile - C:\testdir\example
66) QueryOpen - C:\testdir\example
67) CreateFile - C:\testdir\example
68) SetBasicInformationFile - C:\testdir\example
69) CloseFile - C:\testdir\example
70) CreateFile - C:\testdir
71) QueryDirectory - C:\testdir\example
72) CloseFile - C:\testdir
73) CreateFile - C:\testdir\example
74) SetBasicInformationFile - C:\testdir\example
75) CloseFile - C:\testdir\example

C:\sourcedirxcopy /v * ..\testdir
1) CreateFile - C:\testdir
2) QueryDirectory - C:\testdir
3) QueryDirectory - C:\testdir
4) CloseFile - C:\testdir
5) CreateFile - C:\testdir\EXAMPLE
6) QueryDirectory - C:\testdir
7) QueryDirectory - C:\testdir
8) QueryDirectory - C:\testdir
9) CreateFile - C:\testdir
10) SetBasicInformationFile - C:\testdir
11) CloseFile - C:\testdir
12) CreateFile - C:\testdir
13) QueryDirectory - C:\testdir\example
14) CloseFile - C:\testdir
15) CreateFile - C:\testdir\example
16) CreateFile - C:\testdir
17) CloseFile - C:\testdir
18) QueryAttributeInformationVolume - C:\testdir\example
19) QueryBasicInformationFile - C:\testdir\example
20) SetEndOfFileInformationFile - C:\testdir\example
21) SetBasicInformationFile - C:\testdir\example
22) WriteFile - C:\testdir\example
23) ... WriteFile repeated ... - C:\testdir\example
63) WriteFile - C:\testdir\example
64) SetBasicInformationFile - C:\testdir\example
65) CloseFile - C:\testdir\example
66) QueryOpen - C:\testdir\example
67) CreateFile - C:\testdir\example
68) SetBasicInformationFile - C:\testdir\example
69) CloseFile - C:\testdir\example
70) CreateFile - C:\testdir
71) QueryDirectory - C:\testdir\example
72) CloseFile - C:\testdir
73) CreateFile - C:\testdir\example
74) SetBasicInformationFile - C:\testdir\example
75) CloseFile - C:\testdir\example
76) CreateFile - C:\testdir
77) QueryDirectory - C:\testdir\example
78) CloseFile - C:\testdir

--
--------- Scott Seligman scott at firstname and michelle dot net ---------
* *Money often costs too much.
* *-- Ralph Waldo Emerson


Do tell us more about your "Detours" project.

I surely can learn something out of it !!

Thanks in advance !!
  #38  
Old December 13th 08, 05:53 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows-xp,microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion,comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.win32
Eddie Hyde
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Posts: 23
Default How to set "Verify On" at XP startup ?

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:46:24 -0800 (PST), Hari Hari Mau
wrote:

Do tell us more about your "Detours" project.

I surely can learn something out of it !!


This isn't a chat room, bozo.
  #39  
Old December 13th 08, 07:16 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows-xp,microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion,comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.win32
Scott Seligman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default How to set "Verify On" at XP startup ?

Hari Hari Mau wrote:
Do tell us more about your "Detours" project.

I surely can learn something out of it !!


http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/detours/

--
--------- Scott Seligman scott at firstname and michelle dot net ---------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little
temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin
 




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