USB Transfer

New computer is AMD A10-8750, Quad Core, 3.8GHz/4.0 GHz with Turbo Boost
and 4Mb Cache. Motherboard AMD A78 FCH, 8Gb RAM. Runs Win 10 (64-bit).
2Tb internal hard drive, 5400rpm, SATA (I think?).

It has 4x USB2 and 4x USB3 sockets. (2 of the USB3 are on the front of
the case, all the others on the back.)

I have 2x USB2 external hard drives, 3Tb & 4Tb.

I want to transfer 2.3Tb of data from the 3TB to the 4Tb. I know this is
going to take a very long time.

So, which is the best way to connect those two drives to effect the
fastest possible transfer. The computer can be left chugging away for as
long as it takes since I am still using the old computer, until the
transfer is complete. Any idea how long it will take?

Or would it be quicker to transfer large chunks to the internal hard
drive, then push it out to the other external drive.

Thanks in advance.

jim

jbm wrote:
New computer is AMD A10-8750, Quad Core, 3.8GHz/4.0 GHz with Turbo Boost
and 4Mb Cache. Motherboard AMD A78 FCH, 8Gb RAM. Runs Win 10 (64-bit).
2Tb internal hard drive, 5400rpm, SATA (I think?).

It has 4x USB2 and 4x USB3 sockets. (2 of the USB3 are on the front of
the case, all the others on the back.)

I have 2x USB2 external hard drives, 3Tb & 4Tb.

I want to transfer 2.3Tb of data from the 3TB to the 4Tb. I know this is
going to take a very long time.

So, which is the best way to connect those two drives to effect the
fastest possible transfer. The computer can be left chugging away for as
long as it takes since I am still using the old computer, until the
transfer is complete. Any idea how long it will take?

Or would it be quicker to transfer large chunks to the internal hard
drive, then push it out to the other external drive.

Thanks in advance.

jim


Just about anything would be faster than USB2.

Did you actually buy a 4TB drive in a USB2 box at the
computer store ? I'd want to know what brand of external
disk, provided such a solution.

You can buy USB3 enclosures. Even the cheap ones can do 200MB/sec.
And that just happens to be the right amount for your
disk drives. I have some $35 enclosures that do ~200.

Virtually all my answers, involve pulling the disks out
of the enclosure. Some of the commercial products ("MyBook"),
the disassembly involves hidden screws, or some kind of
Chinese Puzzle. If you put the drives into the enclosure
yourself, the installation method provided was likely a
lot easier - the screws would be visible and so on. Only
the "cute" finished products, hide the screws, and need
a long screwdriver. Maybe a Torx or something.

If you can get the drives out of the USB2 case (35MB/sec max),
then the SATA ports could be doing the 200MB/sec, or
the USB3 enclosures you might buy, could do the same thing.

However, if these were pre-made boxes, are the disk
warranties void if the box is opened ? Do you even care
about the warranty (I don't) ? I would have the box open
so fast, it would make your head spin :-) I *hate* slow
stuff. You don't know how much enamel comes off my
teeth, when using the *USB 1.1 port* on my old Mac G4 :-)

*******

2.3TB = 2,300,000 MB roughly. 2,300,000 / 35 = 65714 seconds.

65714 seconds / 3600 = 18 hours.

*******

Using any suitably faster solution, the disk might start
at around 200MB/sec on the outer diameter. And transfer
at around 100MB/sec on the inner diameter. The average
is 150MB/sec. Now we can calc.

150/35 = 4.3x faster result than my previous calc.

By all means, you can leave it chugging. It will chug
in any case. So you don't have to do a thing, and a
day later, it'll be done. Or, you can take them all
apart, and make them go faster.

*******

When you buy a USB3 computer, you should *immediately*
be oggling the USB3 toys in the shop window :-) I know
I was. I didn't buy the best of enclosures, but, I've
got some... And, I've used them. I even fitted a USB3
card into my older PC, just so it can "keep up".

These are my test results, from shoving the USB3 card
into a better PCI Express slot. I used a capable SSD
as the test device, which gives a flat line in HDTune.
You can see I hit a bit over 200, with my cheap enclosures.
I was dismayed to see the 150MB/sec figure at first,
but once the USB3 card was sitting in the spare video card
slot (Rev.2), all was well. There is at least one
rotating disk drive for sale, that does 300MB/sec, and
well, if you can afford one of those, you can afford to
buy yet another USB3 enclosure :-) The results here are
good enough for my fleet of disks. The 300MB/sec hard disk
spins at 15K.

https://s15.postimg.org/6yrcu1xtn/Wi...enesas_SSD.gif
Rev1.1 150MB/sec

https://s27.postimg.org/zd2y6ev9v/Wi...2_Lane_SSD.gif
Rev2.0 228MB/sec

https://s12.postimg.org/f5ov21itp/Wi..._Ahost_SSD.png
Rev2.0 235MB/sec

https://s12.postimg.org/vt3jjx2p9/Wi..._Ahost_SSD.png
Rev2.0 227MB/sec

HTH,
Paul

En el artículo , Paul
escribió:

2.3TB = 2,300,000 MB roughly. 2,300,000 / 35 = 65714 seconds.

65714 seconds / 3600 = 18 hours

A data point:

Last week, I cloned (using Linux dd) a full 2TB disk on an internal
SATA3 port to an external 2TB disk on a USB2 interface.

The clone took almost exactly twelve hours.

Copying under an OS with CPU and filesystem overheads would have taken
considerably longer, Windows slowing down horribly when there are lots
of small files in a folder.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) systemd: the Linux version of Windows 10
(")_(")

On 06/02/2017 01:29, Paul wrote:
jbm wrote:
New computer is AMD A10-8750, Quad Core, 3.8GHz/4.0 GHz with Turbo
Boost and 4Mb Cache. Motherboard AMD A78 FCH, 8Gb RAM. Runs Win 10
(64-bit). 2Tb internal hard drive, 5400rpm, SATA (I think?).

It has 4x USB2 and 4x USB3 sockets. (2 of the USB3 are on the front of
the case, all the others on the back.)

I have 2x USB2 external hard drives, 3Tb & 4Tb.

I want to transfer 2.3Tb of data from the 3TB to the 4Tb. I know this
is going to take a very long time.

So, which is the best way to connect those two drives to effect the
fastest possible transfer. The computer can be left chugging away for
as long as it takes since I am still using the old computer, until the
transfer is complete. Any idea how long it will take?

Or would it be quicker to transfer large chunks to the internal hard
drive, then push it out to the other external drive.

Thanks in advance.

jim


Just about anything would be faster than USB2.

Did you actually buy a 4TB drive in a USB2 box at the
computer store ? I'd want to know what brand of external
disk, provided such a solution.

You can buy USB3 enclosures. Even the cheap ones can do 200MB/sec.
And that just happens to be the right amount for your
disk drives. I have some $35 enclosures that do ~200.

Virtually all my answers, involve pulling the disks out
of the enclosure. Some of the commercial products ("MyBook"),
the disassembly involves hidden screws, or some kind of
Chinese Puzzle. If you put the drives into the enclosure
yourself, the installation method provided was likely a
lot easier - the screws would be visible and so on. Only
the "cute" finished products, hide the screws, and need
a long screwdriver. Maybe a Torx or something.

If you can get the drives out of the USB2 case (35MB/sec max),
then the SATA ports could be doing the 200MB/sec, or
the USB3 enclosures you might buy, could do the same thing.

However, if these were pre-made boxes, are the disk
warranties void if the box is opened ? Do you even care
about the warranty (I don't) ? I would have the box open
so fast, it would make your head spin :-) I *hate* slow
stuff. You don't know how much enamel comes off my
teeth, when using the *USB 1.1 port* on my old Mac G4 :-)

*******

2.3TB = 2,300,000 MB roughly. 2,300,000 / 35 = 65714 seconds.

65714 seconds / 3600 = 18 hours.

*******

Using any suitably faster solution, the disk might start
at around 200MB/sec on the outer diameter. And transfer
at around 100MB/sec on the inner diameter. The average
is 150MB/sec. Now we can calc.

150/35 = 4.3x faster result than my previous calc.

By all means, you can leave it chugging. It will chug
in any case. So you don't have to do a thing, and a
day later, it'll be done. Or, you can take them all
apart, and make them go faster.

*******

When you buy a USB3 computer, you should *immediately*
be oggling the USB3 toys in the shop window :-) I know
I was. I didn't buy the best of enclosures, but, I've
got some... And, I've used them. I even fitted a USB3
card into my older PC, just so it can "keep up".

These are my test results, from shoving the USB3 card
into a better PCI Express slot. I used a capable SSD
as the test device, which gives a flat line in HDTune.
You can see I hit a bit over 200, with my cheap enclosures.
I was dismayed to see the 150MB/sec figure at first,
but once the USB3 card was sitting in the spare video card
slot (Rev.2), all was well. There is at least one
rotating disk drive for sale, that does 300MB/sec, and
well, if you can afford one of those, you can afford to
buy yet another USB3 enclosure :-) The results here are
good enough for my fleet of disks. The 300MB/sec hard disk
spins at 15K.

https://s15.postimg.org/6yrcu1xtn/Wi...enesas_SSD.gif
Rev1.1 150MB/sec

https://s27.postimg.org/zd2y6ev9v/Wi...2_Lane_SSD.gif
Rev2.0 228MB/sec

https://s12.postimg.org/f5ov21itp/Wi..._Ahost_SSD.png
Rev2.0 235MB/sec

https://s12.postimg.org/vt3jjx2p9/Wi..._Ahost_SSD.png
Rev2.0 227MB/sec

HTH,
Paul


Apologies from this end, Paul. I've just been into the spare room and
the boxes for both external drives were on the floor. (Don't chuck
anything away is my motto. It may have a later use!!!)

Both drives are USB3.0
Data out: Seagate STCA3000200 3Tb
Data in: WD Elements WDBWL G0040HBK-04 4Tb

Do I connect both drives to the rear sockets on the computer? Or one to
the rear and the other to the front, and which way round - data out,
data in?

As for taking the drives apart, forget it. I'm not that good! Anyway,
there are no external screws on either of them!!!

Thanks.

jim

On 06/02/2017 02:00, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , Paul
escribió:

2.3TB = 2,300,000 MB roughly. 2,300,000 / 35 = 65714 seconds.

65714 seconds / 3600 = 18 hours

A data point:

Last week, I cloned (using Linux dd) a full 2TB disk on an internal
SATA3 port to an external 2TB disk on a USB2 interface.

The clone took almost exactly twelve hours.

Copying under an OS with CPU and filesystem overheads would have taken
considerably longer, Windows slowing down horribly when there are lots
of small files in a folder.



Thanks Mike. But that is now irrelevant. I've just discovered both
drives are USB3.0 !!!

See my reply to Paul.

jim

En el artículo , jbm escribió:

Do I connect both drives to the rear sockets on the computer? Or one to
the rear and the other to the front, and which way round - data out,
data in?

The USB3 ports on your computer should be coloured blue. Connect your
external USB3 drives to any two blue ports.

The speed of data copying will be about the same as if you were copying
between two internal hard drives.

HTH.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) systemd: the Linux version of Windows 10
(")_(")

Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , Paul
escribió:

2.3TB = 2,300,000 MB roughly. 2,300,000 / 35 = 65714 seconds.

65714 seconds / 3600 = 18 hours

A data point:

Last week, I cloned (using Linux dd) a full 2TB disk on an internal
SATA3 port to an external 2TB disk on a USB2 interface.

The clone took almost exactly twelve hours.

Copying under an OS with CPU and filesystem overheads would have taken
considerably longer, Windows slowing down horribly when there are lots
of small files in a folder.


Cloning with VSS and sequential LBA transfer (only the
LBAs in usage are copied), speeds it up a bit. In fact,
this is why I prefer a Macrium Reflect Free cloning effort,
to a Robocopy session. Although some of the newer disks,
are doing a damn good job of buffering with the cache now.
Some of the older disk drives, the cache wasn't actually
caching. The old ones were a joke.

If you can move the heads sequentially, and the AHCI driver
(tagged queuing) is used, there should be some improvement.
What you don't want on the disk, is a lot of random head
movement.

I agree that these estimates are rubbish, but
we have to start somewhere :-) Your Mileage May Vary.

Even with Macrium, you have to be careful to tick the
box for system write caching, to get the best speed.
And if you use the Macrium emergency CD, that runs at
about 60% of the speed of the OS version of Macrium.
And Macrium may eventually have a software upper limit.
Maybe it cannot drive two SSDs to full speed.

*******

Purely for amusement (like looking at the funny papers),
here is a set of benches I was looking at today. I was
surprise to see AOMEI Backupper doing so well. I've also tried
DiskImage XML a couple times, and it was slow.

https://www.raymond.cc/blog/10-comme...-comparison/2/

*******

Even "dd" has let me down a few times. You can try using
a large block size, but I have run into cases where I
can't seem to max the damn thing out. "dd" is "classical cloning"
where no detail is missed. Whereas the VSS cloning tools,
only copy the bits with your files on them. For example,
Windows "unerase" won't work any more, if you VSS clone
a disk, as the software does not care to do anything with
your erased files. Erased files are considered... erased.
Even though all the data is still sitting there. If you do
it with "dd", then any capability you had before, you've
still got. Including attempts to "unerase" something later.

And some of the utilities actually *lie* about what they
are doing. I've had one tool, that claimed it was doing
a "forensic" copy, where the job only took 10 minutes.
And just doing the math, that's impossible. They didn't
get everything. If it seems to be too good to be
true, it probably is.

Paul

On 06/02/2017 02:26, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , jbm escribió:

Do I connect both drives to the rear sockets on the computer? Or one to
the rear and the other to the front, and which way round - data out,
data in?

The USB3 ports on your computer should be coloured blue. Connect your
external USB3 drives to any two blue ports.

The speed of data copying will be about the same as if you were copying
between two internal hard drives.

HTH.


Ha, ha! Thanks for that bit of information. Problem at this end - I'm
colour blind. Strangely enough, I'm OK on CMY. It's RGB that causes a
headache, all three of them. (Prevented me from pilot training for the
obvious reasons!!!)

HP have made it very easy on the back panel. USB2 ports are at the top
together, 4 of them. The USB3 ports are lower down, 2 of them. (There is
definitely going to be a major problem when it comes to connecting the
external sound system, as there has been on every computer I've owned.
So long as line-out is in the middle, I should be OK.)

jim

En el artículo , Paul
escribió:

Even "dd" has let me down a few times. You can try using
a large block size, but I have run into cases where I
can't seem to max the damn thing out.

Yes, same here.

"dd" is "classical cloning"
where no detail is missed.

Yes. It takes longer, but I like the security of knowing I have an
exact copy. Also doing it from a Linux boot DVD/USB means Windows has
no involvement in the process.

Cloning a system drive while its host OS is running is a mug's game IMO.

Whereas the VSS cloning tools,
only copy the bits with your files on them.

In theory. I don't much trust M$ to get anything right

If it seems to be too good to be
true, it probably is.

Amen to that

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) systemd: the Linux version of Windows 10
(")_(")

En el artículo , jbm escribió:

Ha, ha! Thanks for that bit of information. Problem at this end - I'm
colour blind. Strangely enough, I'm OK on CMY. It's RGB that causes a
headache, all three of them. (Prevented me from pilot training for the
obvious reasons!!!)

whoops. Could be a problem telling the blue bit from the grey bit
looking out of the cockpit window. ("Jim, you do realise you're flying
this plane upside down?")

HP have made it very easy on the back panel. USB2 ports are at the top
together, 4 of them. The USB3 ports are lower down, 2 of them.

Windows will warn you if you plug a USB3 device into a USB2 port: it'll
pop up a balloon saying "this device can perform faster if [...]" That
should help you, I think.

Have fun.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) systemd: the Linux version of Windows 10
(")_(")

On Sun, 05 Feb 2017 21:34:00 -0500, Paul wrote:

Purely for amusement (like looking at the funny papers),
here is a set of benches I was looking at today. I was
surprise to see AOMEI Backupper doing so well. I've also tried
DiskImage XML a couple times, and it was slow.

https://www.raymond.cc/blog/10-comme...-comparison/2/

Nice find!

jbm wrote:
On 06/02/2017 02:26, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , jbm escribió:

Do I connect both drives to the rear sockets on the computer? Or one to
the rear and the other to the front, and which way round - data out,
data in?

The USB3 ports on your computer should be coloured blue. Connect your
external USB3 drives to any two blue ports.

The speed of data copying will be about the same as if you were copying
between two internal hard drives.

HTH.


Ha, ha! Thanks for that bit of information. Problem at this end - I'm
colour blind. Strangely enough, I'm OK on CMY. It's RGB that causes a
headache, all three of them. (Prevented me from pilot training for the
obvious reasons!!!)

HP have made it very easy on the back panel. USB2 ports are at the top
together, 4 of them. The USB3 ports are lower down, 2 of them. (There is
definitely going to be a major problem when it comes to connecting the
external sound system, as there has been on every computer I've owned.
So long as line-out is in the middle, I should be OK.)

jim


This tool is getting a bit old now, but is sufficient for the job.

http://www.hdtune.com/files/hdtune_255.exe

With your external drive connected, use the benchmark button,
and benchmark the drive. The free version does read-only
benchmarks, so there is no danger to your data.

The tool will not test the entire 4TB drive. It has some limit
as to how big a drive it will test properly.

But you will get an easy visual indication, of whether
you're getting 35MB/sec on reads (flat line across the
platter surface, indicating "bus limited"). Or, if you're
USB3 connected, you should see the "curve" of the rotating disk
performance, be the limiting factor. So on a 4TB drive,
you might see 200MB/sec on the left of the graph, and
around 150MB/sec on the right of the graph, and the
curve should be quite gentle. Since the test program
refuses to do the whole disk, you cannot see the 100MB/sec
end of the drive while testing. If you test a 2TB drive,
chances are the entire thing fits within the limits.

And that test, tells you it's working. And whether you've
got a USB2-class connection, or a USB3-class one.

This is a program limitation. As far as I know, using
a USB enclosure should allow addressing methods that
surpass 2.2TB. If something uses SCSI protocol (some
USB drivers are using UASP), there is a SCSI address
option big enough for truly huge storage devices. So in
principle, even if WinXP could not define an MBR past
2.2TB, a sequential scan should be able to go past that
point.

If you buy the paid version of HDTune (which is maintained),
it is a lot more capable than the release of the free
one in 2008.

Paul

In message , Paul
writes:
[]
And some of the utilities actually *lie* about what they
are doing. I've had one tool, that claimed it was doing
a "forensic" copy, where the job only took 10 minutes.
And just doing the math, that's impossible. They didn't
get everything. If it seems to be too good to be
true, it probably is.

Paul

What _did_ it do in that 10 minutes?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I'm very peachable, if people know how to peach" - Sir David Attenborough (on
being asked if he was tired of being described as impeachable), on Desert
Island Discs, 2012-1-29.

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Paul
writes:
[]
And some of the utilities actually *lie* about what they
are doing. I've had one tool, that claimed it was doing
a "forensic" copy, where the job only took 10 minutes.
And just doing the math, that's impossible. They didn't
get everything. If it seems to be too good to be
true, it probably is.

Paul

What _did_ it do in that 10 minutes?

It did a regular copy, not a forensic copy.

I think I repeated the attempt, using the boot CD that
comes with the software, and then the operation took
six hours. Implying it was functioning correctly.

I don't mind developers doing whatever they feel like,
as long as there is a warning or error dialog stating
what shortcuts are being taken. Like "this operation
only works right from the CD".

Paul

On 06/02/2017 01:05, jbm wrote:
New computer is AMD A10-8750, Quad Core, 3.8GHz/4.0 GHz with Turbo Boost
and 4Mb Cache. Motherboard AMD A78 FCH, 8Gb RAM. Runs Win 10 (64-bit).
2Tb internal hard drive, 5400rpm, SATA (I think?).

It has 4x USB2 and 4x USB3 sockets. (2 of the USB3 are on the front of
the case, all the others on the back.)

I have 2x USB2 external hard drives, 3Tb & 4Tb.

I want to transfer 2.3Tb of data from the 3TB to the 4Tb. I know this is
going to take a very long time.

So, which is the best way to connect those two drives to effect the
fastest possible transfer. The computer can be left chugging away for as
long as it takes since I am still using the old computer, until the
transfer is complete. Any idea how long it will take?

Or would it be quicker to transfer large chunks to the internal hard
drive, then push it out to the other external drive.

Thanks in advance.

jim


Took a while to get everything set up as I wanted it (4 computers on the
network, 2 desktop LAN wired - Win7 & Win10, 2 laptop wi-fi WinXP &
Win7, all able to access all the others plus one 1TB drive plus one
printer/scanner). Bloody wiring nightmare under the desk - 14 power
sockets, 8 USB cables, 2 monitor cables, 2 sound cables), but finally
got there. Then the big surprise - it all works!

Connected both drives (USB3) to the back of the new computer
(temporarily - one now into the old computer), and the transfer took
just under 9 hours to complete.

Thanks all for your advice and help.

jim