[OT] Ubuntu Code of Conduct v2.0

"David B." wrote

| Although I Googled, I'm not 100% sure I understand what YOU mean by
| "OSS"! See what I found, he-
|
Open source software.

| I've been somewhat intrigued by my flirtation with Linux these past few
| days. It seems fairly obvious that one is connecting to a completely
| unknown server - which then has total carte-blanche to look at each
| every single file on one's computer.

I don't know about that. Maybe with Ubuntu.
That seems to be more a private product. Just
as Android is Linux, Linux can be a lot of things.

I've used Suse and Mandrake/Mandriva. They
seemed OK to me, aside from the lack of software.
But they're increasingly being designed to ignore
end-user preference in favor of a concept of usability.
Self-updating software. Root that's not really root,
just as Windows admin is no longer really admin. Lack
of tools to control outgoing processes. Maybe that's
what you mean?
I've never got to the point of using Linux online,
partly because I didn't feel confident that I could
know and control porcesses. (I never found a single
firewall product that would let me filter outgoing
processes like several free Windows firewalls will do.)

I've always thought of Windows as providing
tweakability at many different levels. Windows used
to accomodate any level of expertise and provide tools
for that level. That's what made it so much fun,
and so useful. Microsoft have been gradually taking
away that flexibility, moving toward a kiosk services UI.

Linux used to be at one extreme: A system that
only a handyman could love. Everything was accessible.
Yet like the garage of a compulsive handyman, nothing
was ever finished and organized. It was always in process.
Now it's going to the other extreme, skipping the
polished-but-tweakable step that made Windows so
lovable. Now either you dig deep and spend a lot of
time fixing things and running ridiculously tedious script
incantations in console windows, or you accept
a "modern" UI that hides your options, and in the case
of Ubuntu may very well be tracking you.

I think there's one central, fatal flaw with Linux as a
Desktop system: The people in charge are basically
greasemonkeys who don't want any easy learning curves.
They're like teenage boys in a secret club. Entrance to
the club requires hazing. Otherwise it will lose its special
mystique. In the Windows world there are always a few
oldtimers who detest the mouse and insist that real men
use keyboard incantations. But Microsoft accomodates
all types. In the Linux world, a sense of humor and a
grain of salt are simply not tolerated. If you're not a
greasemonkey then you don't deserve to be able to
control the system and should be restricted to lackey-level
functionality, like Apple products and tablets. For that
reason, I don't have much hope of Linux ever being a
good Desktop option. Ironically, it's even less likely to
ever be a good option for tweakers.

David B. said to Mike Easter ....

I'll let you know if I'm successful in due course.

Hi Mike

If you check my header you'll note that all is now working as hoped for!

Have a grand day! :-)

"Mayayana" news Sun, 26 Feb 2017 20:33:33 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

For that
reason, I don't have much hope of Linux ever being a
good Desktop option. Ironically, it's even less likely to
ever be a good option for tweakers.

I can't say as I share the same opinion based on my experience so far
with Linux Mint...


--
Sarcasm, because beating the living **** out of deserving people is
illegal.

"Diesel" wrote

| For that
| reason, I don't have much hope of Linux ever being a
| good Desktop option. Ironically, it's even less likely to
| ever be a good option for tweakers.
|
| I can't say as I share the same opinion based on my experience so far
| with Linux Mint...
|

I'm curious as to why. What I meant by not good
for tweakers was not good for mid-level expertise.
For instance, in Windows some tweaks are available
to anyone who braves Control Panel. Others require
editing the Registry. All levels of tweaks are gradually
disappearing.

My experience with Linux has been that they started
with plain root with no restrictions. It took a lot of work
to set up, but there were no restrictions. Today it's
typical that one needs to jump through hoops to be
"super user", or "sudo". root is no longer root. Just like
Windows. But Linux never had the "golden age" of
flexibility in between geek system and quasi-kiosk.

The system is increasingly designed to be self-
updating, just like Windows. And I never found a fully
functional, easy firewall that blocks outgoing on a
per-process basis and no one using Linux has ever
answered that concern except to say that Linux is
trustworthy so I shouldn't need that functionality. So
I'm expected to trust outgoing processes, while at the
same time I'm restricted from my own files. (I found
that it was easiest to keep all files on FAT32 data
partitions rather than wrestle with Linux restrictions.)
Again, it's similar to changes in Windows. Even kiosk
devices don't normally self-update. I regard that as
a problematic trend.

A simple, functional firewall is also a good example of
what I mean with tweaking. It allows people advanced
control without advanced training. Advanced configuration
should be possible without ever needing to open a console
window or do extensive research.

I have looked at running Ubuntu on my spare test computer .
If i have to jump though hoops to get root level access then ill just look
else where.
Maybe at a different version of Linux from another maker


--
AL'S COMPUTERS
"Mayayana" wrote in message
news
"Diesel" wrote

| For that
| reason, I don't have much hope of Linux ever being a
| good Desktop option. Ironically, it's even less likely to
| ever be a good option for tweakers.
|
| I can't say as I share the same opinion based on my experience so far
| with Linux Mint...
|

I'm curious as to why. What I meant by not good
for tweakers was not good for mid-level expertise.
For instance, in Wsible without ever needing to open a console
window or do extensive research.

On 28/02/2017 07:25, Andy wrote:
I have looked at running Ubuntu on my spare test computer .
If i have to jump though hoops to get root level access then ill just look
else where.
Maybe at a different version of Linux from another maker

Do read here, Andy!

https://sites.google.com/site/easyli...m-requirements

HTH

--
"Do something wonderful, people may imitate it." (Albert Schweitzer)

Andy wrote:
I have looked at running Ubuntu on my spare test computer .
If i have to jump though hoops to get root level access then ill just look
else where.
Maybe at a different version of Linux from another maker

That's what "sudo" is for. Sudo is a way of granting
privileges with some level of granularity. On a typical
LiveCD, you're given the whole set of them, so nothing
is held back. (I had sudo at work, with a restricted list
of commands, and I couldn't in fact elevate myself to root.)

sudo synaptic

That would start the Package Manager as root.

sudo su
sudo su -

Now, you're root. (In the first case, keeping
the environment of the regular user.)

But beware. Just like Win7 or Win10, being root isn't
all it's cracked up to be. Some tools do not like to be
run as root, because they know that it encourages easier
exploits of the OS. Expect to see lots of snotty dialog
boxes, trying to educate you.

So if you did

sudo su -
passwd
enter a new root password, twice

... logout

login as root (or try)

Expect resistance. I can't tell you exactly what you'll see,
as I learned all my lessons back in S11R4/S11R5 days. I don't
need to try this "experiment" any more :-)

HTH,
Paul

David B. wrote:
On 28/02/2017 07:25, Andy wrote:
I have looked at running Ubuntu on my spare test computer .
If i have to jump though hoops to get root level access then ill just
look
else where.
Maybe at a different version of Linux from another maker

Do read here, Andy!

https://sites.google.com/site/easyli...m-requirements


HTH


But that page doesn't discuss the SSE2 issue. Processors like
AthlonXP 32 bit, don't have SSE2. It's a good idea to use
a modern enough CPU, that it includes SSE2. (Bottom line,
throw that Celeron 300MHz in the garbage.)

http://cromwell-intl.com/linux/flash...-sse2-cpu.html

If you're on Windows, you can use this to test your CPU first.
At least this can show SSE2 support.

"Coreinfo" (May not be able to list whizzy new stuff in Kaby Lake...)

https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/...rnals/cc835722

Xorg has had some graphics drivers removed from it, but
for the most part, this is unlikely to "sink" your project.
They're still nibbling at the edges. For example, S3 Trio 64
support has been removed on some distros. There could be
others. And if you have Intel graphics, just about anything
could happen.

And some distros, when they say they are "low resource" distros
for older computers, they really mean it. I booted one of them
on my newer computer, and practically none of the hardware
had drivers (no USB!). About the only thing it did have, was a disk
driver, and that's why it booted. The graphics in that
case happened to use "Xvesa", whatever that is. Undoubtedly
that would have run perfectly on my Celeron 300 system.

While you're experimenting, you will learn a lot.

Paul

"Mayayana" news Mon, 27 Feb 2017 14:42:13 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

"Diesel" wrote

| For that
| reason, I don't have much hope of Linux ever being a
| good Desktop option. Ironically, it's even less likely to
| ever be a good option for tweakers.
|
| I can't say as I share the same opinion based on my experience so
| far with Linux Mint...
|

I'm curious as to why.

I have it installed on several towers and laptops, used here and
elsewhere. The individuals using it seem to be very happy. I've been
pleased with it here, myself.

My experience with Linux has been that they started
with plain root with no restrictions. It took a lot of work
to set up, but there were no restrictions. Today it's
typical that one needs to jump through hoops to be
"super user", or "sudo". root is no longer root. Just like
Windows. But Linux never had the "golden age" of
flexibility in between geek system and quasi-kiosk.

I don't remember Linux being so generous with full system access so
easily. Your time with it may predate mine, though.

The system is increasingly designed to be self-
updating, just like Windows.

None of the linux machines I'm presently using or that friends are
using do any self updating. They all notify me/them updates are
available, but we have to enter admin password to download and apply
any of them. The machines will not take it upon themselves to update.
Oh, I didn't change anything, afaik, out of the Linux Mint install to
effect that, either.

And I never found a fully functional, easy firewall that blocks
outgoing on a per-process basis and no one using Linux has ever
answered that concern except to say that Linux is
trustworthy so I shouldn't need that functionality.

I haven't tried to do that, yet. Haven't found a reason to need to do
so, yet.

(I found that it was easiest to keep all files on FAT32 data
partitions rather than wrestle with Linux restrictions.)

I didn't wrestle with the permissions. I actually like having them,
myself.

A simple, functional firewall is also a good example of
what I mean with tweaking. It allows people advanced
control without advanced training. Advanced configuration
should be possible without ever needing to open a console
window or do extensive research.

That's a personal matter of opinion of which I don't fully agree.


--
Sarcasm, because beating the living **** out of deserving people is
illegal.

On 28/02/2017 08:33, Paul wrote:

While you're experimenting, you will learn a lot.

How right you are, Paul!

Thank you for your contribution.

--
"Do something wonderful, people may imitate it." (Albert Schweitzer)

"Andy" wrote

|I have looked at running Ubuntu on my spare test computer .
| If i have to jump though hoops to get root level access then ill just look
| else where.
| Maybe at a different version of Linux from another maker
|
Ubuntu has become popular as the easy-to-use
version, but it's also become known as spyware.

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/09/m...adware-feature

I don't know the status of that now, but Mark
Shuttleworth, the founder, clearly thought it
was OK to track your searches and show related
ads, as well as to partner with Amazon.

The problem with Linux, as I was trying to
describe, is that there's a tradeoff. It's mainly
been used by tech people. Kiosk applications
are increasing, but they're locked down. Desktop
use is limited. And all of this tends to be looked
at from the point of view of corporate admins
rather than SOHo users.

All of that has resulted in a system that's
hard to use "raw", limited in its more polished
applications, and sorely lacking good software
other than techie tools.

Windows started out being widely
used by people who owned their own computer
and needed to do work. So it was designed to
be flexible and compliant for non-techies. And
there was big money to be made creating tools
for work. so software companies and Microsoft
all cooperated to make that happen.

All of which is to say that while Windows is
heading from tweakable to kiosk, Linux choices
are mostly between geek and lackey. Ther was
never a tweakable market. Linux geeks are
proud that so few people can use the system.
If you forego the easy-to-use version you're faced
with needing to learn more and deal with more
time-wasting console incantations.

I've mainly used Suse and Mandriva, mostly
because Suse and RedHat-type software
installers are the most plentiful. The last time
I spent time with Linux was a few years ago,
when I tried (unsuccessfully) to work with the
WINE people in porting Windows software. At
that time both Suse and Mandriva were similar
to Windows in that they made true admin/root
difficult to access. Even "sudo" superuser, which
has no business existing when there was already
root, was hard to get access to... For your own
protection, of course. And don't you dare ask how
to do it in a Linux newsgroup. They'll just swear
like teenagers and express regret that they can't
stone you to death.

That's the other nice thing about Windows that's
often underappreciated: There's only a very mild
cult aspect. Unlike Apple and Linux fanatics,
Windows users tend to see themselves as just using
a computer, almost unaware of the brand or OS.

On 28/02/2017 15:01, Mayayana wrote:
"Andy" wrote

|I have looked at running Ubuntu on my spare test computer .
| If i have to jump though hoops to get root level access then ill just look
| else where.
| Maybe at a different version of Linux from another maker
|
Ubuntu has become popular as the easy-to-use
version, but it's also become known as spyware.

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/09/m...adware-feature

I don't know the status of that now, but Mark
Shuttleworth, the founder, clearly thought it
was OK to track your searches and show related
ads, as well as to partner with Amazon.

The problem with Linux, as I was trying to
describe, is that there's a tradeoff. It's mainly
been used by tech people. Kiosk applications
are increasing, but they're locked down. Desktop
use is limited. And all of this tends to be looked
at from the point of view of corporate admins
rather than SOHo users.

All of that has resulted in a system that's
hard to use "raw", limited in its more polished
applications, and sorely lacking good software
other than techie tools.

Windows started out being widely
used by people who owned their own computer
and needed to do work. So it was designed to
be flexible and compliant for non-techies. And
there was big money to be made creating tools
for work. so software companies and Microsoft
all cooperated to make that happen.

All of which is to say that while Windows is
heading from tweakable to kiosk, Linux choices
are mostly between geek and lackey. Ther was
never a tweakable market. Linux geeks are
proud that so few people can use the system.
If you forego the easy-to-use version you're faced
with needing to learn more and deal with more
time-wasting console incantations.

I've mainly used Suse and Mandriva, mostly
because Suse and RedHat-type software
installers are the most plentiful. The last time
I spent time with Linux was a few years ago,
when I tried (unsuccessfully) to work with the
WINE people in porting Windows software. At
that time both Suse and Mandriva were similar
to Windows in that they made true admin/root
difficult to access. Even "sudo" superuser, which
has no business existing when there was already
root, was hard to get access to... For your own
protection, of course. And don't you dare ask how
to do it in a Linux newsgroup. They'll just swear
like teenagers and express regret that they can't
stone you to death.

That's the other nice thing about Windows that's
often underappreciated: There's only a very mild
cult aspect. Unlike Apple and Linux fanatics,
Windows users tend to see themselves as just using
a computer, almost unaware of the brand or OS.


You have a wonderful way with words, Mayayana and nowadays I can follow
most of what you are saying! I'm no techie, but I can (and do!) operate
Windows, Apple and Linux machines.

I'm often criticized for asking about the people behind the nym - but
you seem to be an interesting and talented individual and I'd really
like to know a little bit more about you. Will you share or will that be
eating into your much valued privacy?

Regardless, you have been most helpful and friendly towards me and for
that I sincerely thank you. :-)

--
"Do something wonderful, people may imitate it." (Albert Schweitzer)

"David B." wrote

| I'm no techie, but I can (and do!) operate
| Windows, Apple and Linux machines.

99% of people would call that a techie.

| I'm often criticized for asking about the people behind the nym

It's bad manners. You're not asking a question
for yourself of someone you know. You're asking
a stranger personal questions in public. I think
you know that, so why do you persist?

On Tue, 28 Feb 2017 19:28:49 -0500
"Mayayana" wrote:

"David B." wrote

| I'm no techie, but I can (and do!) operate
| Windows, Apple and Linux machines.

99% of people would call that a techie.

| I'm often criticized for asking about the people behind the nym

It's bad manners. You're not asking a question
for yourself of someone you know. You're asking
a stranger personal questions in public. I think
you know that, so why do you persist?



cause david brooks (Devon) is a known Stalker

On 01/03/2017 00:28, Mayayana wrote:
"David B." wrote

| I'm no techie, but I can (and do!) operate
| Windows, Apple and Linux machines.

99% of people would call that a techie.

Alright then! ;-)

| I'm often criticized for asking about the people behind the nym

It's bad manners. You're not asking a question
for yourself of someone you know. You're asking
a stranger personal questions in public. I think
you know that, so why do you persist?

Mayayana

*YOU* claim that it's bad manners but millions of people don't hide who
they are and what they do.

Here's an example: https://be.linkedin.com/in/mieke-verburgh-429a5527

I'm what's known as a 'people person'
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/people-person

You might like to try it someday! ;-)

Sometimes, when out boating and we meet folk at a lock, one can get a
complete life history from a stranger in less than 10 minutes! That's FUN!

Have a grand day.

--
"Do something wonderful, people may imitate it." (Albert Schweitzer)Mayayana