Win10 boot problems swapping HDDs

I have complicated intermittent Win10 boot problems where I'd like to ask
two questions which come up during debugging and repair.

(1) Can I swap a Windows 10 boot HDD from one machine to another to test
whether it's the boot drive or the machine that is causing the problem?

Or does the MS license issue of the two different machines prevent that?

(2) If I put the "maybe bad" Win10 boot HDD in the "good" machine as a
second disk, how do I install Win10 onto this second disk using a Win10 ISO
file on the good machines' boot drive which is the first disk?

In the past I've only installed Win10 on the "C:" drive.
Can Win10 be installed on the "D:" drive from a Win10 ISO on the C: drive?

In article , says...

I have complicated intermittent Win10 boot problems where I'd like to ask
two questions which come up during debugging and repair.

(1) Can I swap a Windows 10 boot HDD from one machine to another to test
whether it's the boot drive or the machine that is causing the problem?

Or does the MS license issue of the two different machines prevent that?

(2) If I put the "maybe bad" Win10 boot HDD in the "good" machine as a
second disk, how do I install Win10 onto this second disk using a Win10 ISO
file on the good machines' boot drive which is the first disk?

In the past I've only installed Win10 on the "C:" drive.
Can Win10 be installed on the "D:" drive from a Win10 ISO on the C: drive?

When you install Windows, it selects and installs drivers to suit your
hardware, so unless the two machines are identical you'll likely have
problems - it may not recognise your graphics adapter, for example,
which would stop everything!

Even if the two machines are identical, the Windows license is tied to
unique characteristics of the hardware, so it would not "validate".
It's a while since I've been in that territory - it might run
sufficiently for you to do what you want (but only if the machines are
entirely identical, as above).

What you might try is to install a utility to assess the SMART metrics
of your disk which will give you an idea of the health of the disk. The
free Acronis Drive Monitor (meant to be used with their True Image
backup product) works well - another free one is PassMark. I use HD
Sentinel (paid). Once you've seen how this can save your ass by giving
you time to save data *before* the disk dies, you'll never want to be
without one.

You might simply reinstall. Download the media creation tool from he
https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/soft...load/windows10

If you're reinstalling on hardware which has previously been licensed,
that license will be "remembered" so you won't need a key (works really
well). You'll need an 8GB flash drive. You will have options to format
the disk or to use existing partitions on any disk in the system. Drive
letters are assigned at install time, and you'll normally settle with C:
for the system disk unless there is already a C: drive in the system.

Of course you'll lose all data on the disk if you install over it, so
copy it off first! If you're not yet using OneDrive, that would be a
very convenient way to transfer your data (5GB free storage, 100GB
fairly cheap) and you might use Google Drive (15GB free) as well.
You'll also lose all installations not from the Windows Store, so be
sure you can find license keys and media for anything important.

HTH

--

Phil, London

delvon daily wrote:
I have complicated intermittent Win10 boot problems where I'd like to ask
two questions which come up during debugging and repair.

(1) Can I swap a Windows 10 boot HDD from one machine to another to test
whether it's the boot drive or the machine that is causing the problem?

Or does the MS license issue of the two different machines prevent that?

(2) If I put the "maybe bad" Win10 boot HDD in the "good" machine as a
second disk, how do I install Win10 onto this second disk using a Win10 ISO
file on the good machines' boot drive which is the first disk?

In the past I've only installed Win10 on the "C:" drive.
Can Win10 be installed on the "D:" drive from a Win10 ISO on the C: drive?

I've accidentally booted the wrong Win10 disk on a machine, and
it didn't seem to hurt Windows 10 (that's not an endorsement of
the procedure, mind you). I shut down as quickly as I could, when
I realized my mistake.

A side effect of such a boot, is hardware detection should
take place, and drivers get added. I haven't checked to see
if the OS is clever enough to start a new ENUM for the foreign
machine, or it just dumps all sorts of extra detections into
the existing ENUM tree.

Older OSes don't take kindly to such an experiment. The
worst case result of booting the wrong disk on a machine,
is the OS "freezes" as a kind of punishment. Windows 10 seems
more forgiving.

Windows 10 had the option of Windows To Go, where the OS was placed
on a USB stick and could be booted on more than one machine.
That's been discontinued in the latest version of the OS, but
you can still find various ways of doing it. Such an OS would
need facilities to handle more than one machine as its host.

Paul

On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:19:08 -0000, Philip Herlihy
wrote:



When you install Windows, it selects and installs drivers to suit your
hardware, so unless the two machines are identical you'll likely have
problems - it may not recognise your graphics adapter, for example,
which would stop everything!

Win10 is quite clever. I've used an existing boot drive to boot when
I've upgraded my PC, including replacing the m'board and CPU, and, if
the internet is connected, it just goes away and gets any drivers that
it needs. Most of them will already be on the system out of reach and
in case of need anyway.
Having booted with new components the OS does then ask for proof of
entitlement to a license, of course. Check the device manager to see
if there are any components not recognised.

Philip Herlihy wrote:
Philip Herlihy wrote:

Even if the two machines are identical, the Windows license is tied to
unique characteristics of the hardware, so it would not "validate".

I don't need it to validate. I just need it to either work or fail so I can
debug if the mabybad machine is a hardware or Microsoft problem.

But both disks failed to boot when put into the opposite machine, which
didn't tell me anything useful.

That's why I asked
(1) Can you put a good Win10 boot disk in another machine and will it at
least boot once without saying it needs to repair itself?

What you might try is to install a utility to assess the SMART metrics
of your disk which will give you an idea of the health of the disk.

Did all that long ago. That's why I didn't ask how to repair the Win10
installation other than to ask the second question.

(2) Can you put a maybebad Win10 boot disk into a good machine so that you
can repair the maybebad Win10 installation with an ISO file on the good
machine?

You might simply reinstall. Download the media creation tool from he
https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/soft...load/windows10

I did all that so I have the latest ISO on both machines' HDD boot drive
and also on a DVD disc.

The maybebad machine boots perfectly only one out of fifty times, and when
it boots perfectly, it doesn't stay alive for too long, maybe 10 minutes,
maybe a half hour, maybe even two hours but it WILL die with a light blue
screen hardware exception error so I can't risk the Win10 ISO repair from
the mabybe bad machine.

To be clear, I think it's the Windows installation only if it's not the
hardware since the mabyebad HDD boot drive works just fine installed as a
second HDD in the good machine, I already ran diagnostics such as
CrystalDiskInfo which says the drive is good.
[https://downloads.tomsguide.com/Crys...13-25941.html]
[https://fossbytes.com/repair-corrupt...ive-fix-disk/]

I got similar good HDD results from AOMEI Partition Assistant Standard
Edition 8.5 which I found by looking here for corruption diagnosis.
[https://www.disk-partition.com/free-...-manager.html]
[https://www.disk-partition.com/artic...cmd-7201.html]

Aomei ran the checkdisk with repair but found nothing as I had already run
chkdsk D: /F /X /R (fix, dismount & recover sectors)

I even had Aomei repair the MBR but that didn't change anything.

I had also run sfc a few ways but it keeps giving me the same error even
when the maybebad HDD is a second disk in the good machine.
sfc /scannow /offbootdir=D:\ offwindir=D:\windows

"Windows Resource Protection could not perform the requested operation"

And I had already set this in response to that error but it didn't work.
IACLS D:\windows\winsxs

It's not easy to boot the maybe bad machine to run it in safe mode because
it boots perfectly only one out of very many tries (a few hours of work).

I've already backed up the data from the maybebad machine to the good
machine so I can format the HDD but the problem is more likely to be
hardware I think since nine times out of ten the hardware won't recognize
the HDD no matter which of the 6 SATA ports I plug the data line into.

I think it most likely that there is nothing wrong with the mabyebad HDD
simply because even the good HDD wouldn't boot in the maybebad machine.

Both machines are older BIOS (not EIFI) where the boot order in the BIOS is
correct. What is bothersome is that the built in HP hardware tests all
passed where the built-in HP diagnostics passed the CPU, memory, and HDD
boot path.

It's flaky which is why I asked the two questions that I can't find an
answer on the net for.
(1) Can you put a good Win10 boot disk in another machine and will it at
least boot once without saying it needs to repair itself?
(2) Can you put a maybebad Win10 boot disk into a good machine so that you
can repair the maybebad Win10 installation with an ISO file on the good
machine?

Because both failed and I don't know if they failed because they had no
chance.

Paul wrote:

Older OSes don't take kindly to such an experiment. The
worst case result of booting the wrong disk on a machine,
is the OS "freezes" as a kind of punishment. Windows 10 seems
more forgiving.

The reason I asked those question is the machines are quite different and
when I tried swapping boot disks between the two different machines
(because I tried before asking), both boot disks came up with a windows
repair and wouldn't boot.

I didn't know if that was due to Microsoft or the machines because I had
expected at least the good boot disk to boot in the maybebad machine but
neither did the mabybe bad boot disk in the good machine.

I can't seem to boot off the external USB based optical drive on the
mabyebad machine because it "says" it is booting off the optical drive with
the Win10 iso disc loaded but it just stays black forever (its a very old
8x8 Sony optical drive as I haven't needed an external drive since
forever).

That's why I asked the two questions.
(1) Can you put a good Win10 boot disk in another machine and will it at
least boot once without saying it needs to repair itself?
(2) Can you put a maybebad Win10 boot disk into a good machine so that you
can repair the maybebad Win10 installation with an ISO file on the good
machine?

On 18/11/2019 14:58, delvon daily wrote:
(1) Can you put a good Win10 boot disk in another machine and will it
at least boot once without saying it needs to repair itself?

Can you cut the crap and just do it. You don't have to ask anybody's
permission here. They are scammers like you.

The worst thing that could happen is you might blow your house or you
might get a call from Microsoft telling you that you are a thief.
Remove the internet cable and everything should be secret.

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From: delvon daily
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Win10 boot problems swapping HDDs
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 08:58:32 -0600
Organization: Neodome
Message-ID:
References:
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--
With over 1,000,000 million devices now running Windows 10, customer
satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.

delvon daily wrote:
Paul wrote:

Older OSes don't take kindly to such an experiment. The
worst case result of booting the wrong disk on a machine,
is the OS "freezes" as a kind of punishment. Windows 10 seems
more forgiving.

The reason I asked those question is the machines are quite different and
when I tried swapping boot disks between the two different machines
(because I tried before asking), both boot disks came up with a windows
repair and wouldn't boot.

I didn't know if that was due to Microsoft or the machines because I had
expected at least the good boot disk to boot in the maybebad machine but
neither did the mabybe bad boot disk in the good machine.

I can't seem to boot off the external USB based optical drive on the
mabyebad machine because it "says" it is booting off the optical drive with
the Win10 iso disc loaded but it just stays black forever (its a very old
8x8 Sony optical drive as I haven't needed an external drive since
forever).

That's why I asked the two questions.
(1) Can you put a good Win10 boot disk in another machine and will it at
least boot once without saying it needs to repair itself?
(2) Can you put a maybebad Win10 boot disk into a good machine so that you
can repair the maybebad Win10 installation with an ISO file on the good
machine?

The first CD-only drives (no DVD laser), those can't read "burned" discs.
They would be particularly bad with CD-RW. I have several of those
drives, which are about as valuable to me as boat anchors.

The second kind of CD drive, used a higher power light source, and
it can read a CD-RW. My MSI CR52 is like that.

Then we move to CD/DVD drives, which have two lasers, and read most
media.

Bluray drives have three lasers, and optics differ for each path.
Those read three disc types.

You would think a USB optical solution, would at least have
the second kind of CD drive in it. Unless this is an enclosure
you assembled yourself, in which case any old drive could be installed.
I use my own enclosure for optical drives, if I need a portable.
I don't use a slim.

*******

Booting computers has its moments:

1) 440BX refuses to use a DVD drive. The only
test media you can use is CDs. The 440BX also won't boot
from USB. And it won't use a SATA card. It will refuse.
I use the CR52 and burned CDRW for that case, or install
something on an IDE HDD and insert that. For example, I can
install Linux on another machine, then bring the HDD over to
the year 2000 machine and boot it. Maybe Puppy would work.

2) My P4B is more accepting of optical drives. But still
won't boot from USB.

3) My P4C800-E Deluxe (P4 based) will boot from USB. Anything more
modern than that (year 2005 or so), might also do so.

4) Super modern machines can be UEFI/CSM or UEFI or UEFI with
Secure Boot. Secure Boot can cause problems for a tester, so
ascertaining whether Secure Boot is involved, would be an early
step in testing. You turn that off, before getting out your
kit bag of discs and such.

CSM is a legacy BIOS module, so behaves like an old BIOS.
UEFI is newer, and more of a nuisance. Using the popup boot
key and the popup menu, you can select one mode or the other.
But there are exceptions, where the equipment and its popup
boot, don't work right. If I have several USB devices plugged
into the Optiplex, there is no control to select which USB to
use, which means I can only plug in one USB at boot time.

*******

Windows 10 can be placed on a USB stick. MediaCreationTool1903.exe
could do that for you, amongst others. Sometimes, recent Microsoft
images are hybrids, but they're not hybrids exactly the same way
as the Linux ones. I've had optical discs, where the UEFI part is
missing (and I might need that for GPT disk work). If you use the
MicrosoftStore utility, it botches the UEFI part, whereas the
MediaCreationTool seems to be OK for hybrids. A hybrid can boot
UEFI or CSM, from the popup boot menu (two menu entries on a
UEFI/CSM machine).

The disktype.exe utility can be used to review optical media
(as ISO or as a physical drive situation). I use a Cygwin version
of that, for work in Windows. There is no port as a direct
Win32 executable, but the Cygwin version works well enough.

http://disktype.sourceforge.net/

Even in Windows, to have it analyze the partitions on a HDD, you use

disktype.exe /dev/sda

to pick the first row of what is in Disk Management, for testing.

*******

Using onion skin test methods, you "prove" it's a computer
as you go along.

1) memtest from memtest.org . Verify RAM is good, pass counter = 1.

2) Prime95 torture test from mersenne.org/downloads. Four hours
error free is a good start. (Shortest failure time for me was
three seconds.) This proves the CPU and memory are good.

3) On storage, the problem could be a defective SATA cable
(if the SATA data cable is bent until it kinks, that damages the
dielectric). The drive could be bad. Or the SATA power or data
plug could be bad. There were some SATA power plugs that shorted
out and burned, a few years back. That will spoil your day.

Get the Seagate or WDC disk test diagnostics. The MSDOS one
will be pretty worthless (probably won't boot on modern hardware).
Only a P4 or older machine is a good bet for the MSDOS version.

For the Windows version, you'll need to use a known-working PC
to run the test of the defective drive. The test programs run
the drive internal "short" or "long" SMART test.

While on the Technician machine, you can also read out the SMART
stats table with HDTune. Run the read benchmark and verify the HDD shows
the normal "downward curve" for the transfer speed (outer to inner
diameter). This program won't test large disks properly - 2TB is
a comfortable max.

http://www.hdtune.com/files/hdtune_255.exe

4) You could test the SATA interface on the Southbridge of the
broken machine, using a golden good hard drive you use for
such testing. Using your scratch drive, you can do a Clean Install
to prove out the system, making it easier to test the NIC and
so on.

5) A lot of boot problems with drives, only require "boot repair".
For example, the other day, I got some complaint about "winload.exe"
and the boot stopped. That was a BCD file in need of a refresh.
Using a Macrium ReflectFree rescue disc, I used the boot repair
and *only* ticked the "fix BCD" box. That's because the disk
was a multiboot, and I have to be careful not to screw up the
other materials on the drive. There are four tick boxes, if you
want to repair everything offered.

Making a new BCD in Command Prompt, is around four commands.
That's how lazy I am :-)

Eventually, you might discover there really are files
missing. On some, the System Reserved might be marked
with the Boot Flag. Well, say by some accident, System
Reserved, the partition is removed. Now you've lost
all the boot-related materials. That's not going to be
easy to put back. There is a recipe for combining partitions,
such that the boot materials all stay on C: , but this also
reduces your recovery options.

6) If you're doing SFC or DISM offline commands, well, what's
the point ? If that much damage has been done, I have to
question whether the thing can ever be put exactly right that
way. Maybe you have invisible registry damage too ? I would be
looking for my backups, or looking to the system for backup
versions to use for recovery of the Registry.

7) Repair Install is only possible from a running C: .
If C: won't run, you can't do that.

8) You can back up the files by cloning onto a second disk.
Then do a Clean Install. Then use a $50 version of Laplink, Easeus,
or Zinstall, to move the programs and user data from the old
drive, onto the now-running Clean Install C: partition.

Or, you can do piece-meal movement of email databases, programs
and user data, your own self.

A person who repairs computers for a living, takes all sorts
of shortcuts, as "time is money" for them. But by doing that,
they're leaving it to their customer to do further testing,
to determine whether there is still a problem. If you give
me a computer, I go back to basics and do Step (1). The main
reason I insist on starting at step (1), is because no one
else may have ever done Step (1), and some issues were entirely
missed by the owner.

For example, I bought a brand new computer, for maybe $1500 or so.
As a gift. Well, guess what. Step (1) failed. Bad RAM. Took it
back. They put bad RAM in it a second time (different sticks).
Never underestimate the value of testing. (I also had to teach
the "tech" at that store, what memtest was!)

http://www.memtest.org/ # Downloads, 50% down the page

You'll need your Technician machine, to aid in this testing process
(because the broken machine might not be obliging).

Paul

On 19/11/2019 10:24, Paul wrote:
snip lots of helpful information!

Â*Â* Paul

Piggy backing, Paul!

Do you know if the Apple SuperDrive has two lasers?

https://www.johnlewis.com/apple-usb-...E&gclsrc=aw.ds

David wrote:
On 19/11/2019 10:24, Paul wrote:
snip lots of helpful information!

Paul

Piggy backing, Paul!

Do you know if the Apple SuperDrive has two lasers?

https://www.johnlewis.com/apple-usb-...E&gclsrc=aw.ds


Open it up and look ?

What did the Wikipedia article say ?

Every optical disc standard has its own light source.

Laserdisc is older and had a larger diameter disc, and isn't in the
same league as the others.

"Laserdisc: 780 nm wavelength semiconductor laser
(early players used HeNe gas lasers)"

"CD 780 nm wavelength (infrared and red edge)"
"DVD 300-650 nm laser,"
"BD 405 nm diode laser"

The DVD isn't likely to be using a UV laser, and 650nm
is the likely choice. This chart shows the semiconductor
material for each type is different.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...-PHDyd_y78Yg&s

CD 780nm GaAs
DVD 650nm GaAlAs Multiple Quantum Well
BD 405nm InGaN Multiple Quantum Well

At about 14 second mark, picture of a BD setup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bqujaldaCQ

In a three laser setup, the CD/DVD can be one laser unit,
the BD one a separate unit. This is a combo CD/DVD unit.
The 780nm is IR, the 650nm is Red.

https://burninsheep.wordpress.com/20...iode-close-up/

Paul

In article , Paul
wrote:

The first CD-only drives (no DVD laser), those can't read "burned" discs.

of course they can.

i remember using burned cds in 1980s era cd-rom drives, sony discmans
and cd players in cars without any issues whatsoever.

the sony discman was old enough that it did not have the logic to block
playing data discs. the car players probably would have been the same
but i didn't try that.

They would be particularly bad with CD-RW. I have several of those
drives, which are about as valuable to me as boat anchors.

cd-rw is less reflective and can sometimes be a problem with very old
drives, but that hasn't been an issue for a couple of decades.

On 19/11/2019 11:34, Paul wrote:
David wrote:
On 19/11/2019 10:24, Paul wrote:
snip lots of helpful information!

Â*Â*Â* Paul

Piggy backing, Paul!

Do you know if the Apple SuperDrive has two lasers?

https://www.johnlewis.com/apple-usb-...E&gclsrc=aw.ds


Open it up and look ?

What did the Wikipedia article say ?

Nothing about lasers, Paul!

Every optical disc standard has its own light source.

Laserdisc is older and had a larger diameter disc, and isn't in the
same league as the others.

Â*Â* "Laserdisc: 780 nm wavelength semiconductor laser
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* (early players used HeNe gas lasers)"

Â*Â* "CDÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* 780 nm wavelength (infrared and red edge)"
Â*Â* "DVDÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* 300-650 nm laser,"
Â*Â* "BDÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* 405 nm diode laser"

The DVD isn't likely to be using a UV laser, and 650nm
is the likely choice. This chart shows the semiconductor
material for each type is different.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...-PHDyd_y78Yg&s


Â*Â*Â* CDÂ* 780nm GaAs
Â*Â*Â* DVD 650nm GaAlAs Multiple Quantum Well
Â*Â*Â* BDÂ* 405nm InGaNÂ* Multiple Quantum Well

At about 14 second mark, picture of a BD setup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bqujaldaCQ

In a three laser setup, the CD/DVD can be one laser unit,
the BD one a separate unit. This is a combo CD/DVD unit.
The 780nm is IR, the 650nm is Red.

https://burninsheep.wordpress.com/20...iode-close-up/

Â*Â* Paul

As always, I appreciate your response, Paul. Thank you.

I decided, eventually, that my only recourse was to revert my operating
system to macOS Mojave using Time Machine. This I did (it takes a very
long time!) but am pleased to report that, once done, my SuperDrive did
once more play DVDs.

The fault DID lie with the macOS Catalina operating system!

I'm going to ERASE my hard disk before installing Catalina once again.

David B.

In article , David ! wrote:


I decided, eventually, that my only recourse was to revert my operating
system to macOS Mojave using Time Machine. This I did (it takes a very
long time!) but am pleased to report that, once done, my SuperDrive did
once more play DVDs.

The fault DID lie with the macOS Catalina operating system!

as you've been told in other threads, dvd playback works perfectly fine
in catalina.

I'm going to ERASE my hard disk before installing Catalina once again.

best to leave it erased.

On 19/11/2019 19:28, nospam wrote:
In article , David ! wrote:


I decided, eventually, that my only recourse was to revert my operating
system to macOS Mojave using Time Machine. This I did (it takes a very
long time!) but am pleased to report that, once done, my SuperDrive did
once more play DVDs.

The fault DID lie with the macOS Catalina operating system!

as you've been told in other threads, dvd playback works perfectly fine
in catalina.

I was told, verbally, by senior Apple Support staff that there *IS* an
ongoing problem around the world with Catalina and *SOME* Apple SuperDrives.

Just because *YOU* don't know about it, it doesn't mean that I have been
misinformed.

I erased my hard disk before installing Catalina - currently in
progress! :-)

In article , David ! wrote:

I decided, eventually, that my only recourse was to revert my operating
system to macOS Mojave using Time Machine. This I did (it takes a very
long time!) but am pleased to report that, once done, my SuperDrive did
once more play DVDs.

The fault DID lie with the macOS Catalina operating system!

as you've been told in other threads, dvd playback works perfectly fine
in catalina.

I was told, verbally, by senior Apple Support staff that there *IS* an
ongoing problem around the world with Catalina and *SOME* Apple SuperDrives.

you were told in other threads that there was a problem in catalina
*betas*, which has long been fixed.

there is no issue playing dvds, except if the user ****s up somehow,
which in your case is virtually guaranteed.

Just because *YOU* don't know about it, it doesn't mean that I have been
misinformed.

you don't understand what anyone tells you.

I erased my hard disk before installing Catalina - currently in
progress! :-)

leave it erased.