Enabling alternate symbols and text...

"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote on Mon, 4 Jun
2007:

Please... can you tell me what the problem might be, or can you point me
to some troubleshooting instructions? And please, I am interesting in the
MS operating system functions that are available in WinXP Home for
this purpose if at all possible.

Hi David

I've just been reading through your conversation with Ken. . . I can see
you're feeling frustrated and annoyed, but Ken is a good guy :-) and was
trying to help.

Yes, you definitely should be able to use alt-codes in XP Home (or
Character Map, or the US International keyboard, as Ken said).

Can we go back to basics for a minute? Just in case there's something
funny with Word, forget it just for now for the purposes of elimination
-- open Notepad. Set the font to a Windows basic such as Times New Roman
or Arial and type a few characters. Are you able to use Character Map to
copy and paste in a special character? (I'm not suggesting that's
satisfactory as a long-term solution, just trying to see if *any* method
works on this machine).

When you try to use an alt-code, what *exactly* do you do? Please don't
be offended, I'm sure you know what you're doing but I'm trying to get a
picture of exactly what's happening. You do have Num Lock on and are
using the numeric keypad at the far right of the keyboard, not the
numbers on the top row of the "ordinary" keys?

Is Num Lock definitely on; i.e. do numbers appear when you hit the keys
on the numeric pad? If yes: Hold down Alt while you type 0191 on the
numeric keypad, then release Alt. You should get the upside-down
question mark ¿ . Any luck? If not, does it make any difference if you
use the other Alt key?

Please let us know how it goes. We do genuinely want to help.

--
Nightowl

"Nightowl" ] wrote in message ...
"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote on Mon, 4 Jun
2007:

Please... can you tell me what the problem might be, or can you point me
to some troubleshooting instructions? And please, I am interesting in the
MS operating system functions that are available in WinXP Home for
this purpose if at all possible.

Hi David

I've just been reading through your conversation with Ken. . . I can see
you're feeling frustrated and annoyed, but Ken is a good guy :-) and was
trying to help.

I have received benefit from reading Ken's replies in the past, as I hope
that I will mañana and in the future.

Yes, you definitely should be able to use alt-codes in XP Home (or
Character Map, or the US International keyboard, as Ken said).

I just typed that character with Win98SE on my surfing toy. I have never
encountered this problem before. Character map *is* installed. I applied
the US-International keyboard option as well, with no joy... although there
may be operating issues that I am not familiar with.

Can we go back to basics for a minute?

Please. ;-)

Just in case there's something
funny with Word, forget it just for now for the purposes of elimination
-- open Notepad. Set the font to a Windows basic such as Times New Roman
or Arial and type a few characters. Are you able to use Character Map to
copy and paste in a special character? (I'm not suggesting that's
satisfactory as a long-term solution, just trying to see if *any* method
works on this machine).

I will be at the location of the machine around 4:00 pm. I will follow these
instructions and reply around midnight. (Unfortunately, I may have no
choice but to install the OEM software in order to get my client back up
and running, but this will force him to learn new key combinations and
won't be taken as a very efficient 'solution').

I have supported his PCs for some time, and just built and sold him his
first new box in six years, last week. He's been without this 'alt text'
support for several days, and leading a spanish ministry and dealing
with spanish speaking people, it is a requirement for him.

When you try to use an alt-code, what *exactly* do you do? Please don't
be offended, I'm sure you know what you're doing but I'm trying to get a
picture of exactly what's happening.

Hold 'alt' - type the numeric characters - release alt... character appears.
(At least in does on every PC I work with except this new one).

You do have Num Lock on and are
using the numeric keypad at the far right of the keyboard, not the
numbers on the top row of the "ordinary" keys?

Oh geeezzz.... All of my PCs are set up with NumLock as a default in
BIOS... but I failed to check his new installation for this. Since it's a
natural for me, I will assume that it is on... but I'll report back later. It
would be a nice discovery if this were indeed the only problem. He has
been using the OS and 'alt #' characters for so long that he doesn't even
have to think about it when he types. It would make him very happy if
he did not have to load OEM software (which I have preached against
for several years and have always been the one to load for him if and
when it was necessary) and learn new keystroke combinations.

Is Num Lock definitely on; i.e. do numbers appear when you hit the keys
on the numeric pad? If yes: Hold down Alt while you type 0191 on the
numeric keypad, then release Alt. You should get the upside-down
question mark ¿ . Any luck? If not, does it make any difference if you
use the other Alt key?

Thanks a million for the tips. ¿me crazy? Perhaps. It was stupid of me
not to have checked this function before delivery of a sale to an American
spanish speaking client. Here's to hoping that it was an oversight of the
number-lock on my part.

Please let us know how it goes. We do genuinely want to help.

Will do.

Cheers,

DM

On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 06:21:55 GMT, "David Morgan \(MAMS\)"
/Odm wrote:


"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote in message ...

On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 06:44:34 GMT, "David Morgan \(MAMS\)"
/Odm wrote:

"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote in message ...


Sorry Ken... I don't mean to be rude, but you responded to my earlier
querry regarding a problem that apparently rests either with my ignorance
or with the current (clean install) configuration of an MS XP operating system.

First, instead of addressing either, you referred me to a piece of OEM software
and suggested that I install it rather than to deal with the MS XP product features.


I recommended what I felt was the best way to deal with the situation.


Secondly, on my second querry regarding the XP OS's capabilities, you offerred
that there were indeed ways to address this issue within the MS product, but
failed to provide any instructions or directions to tutorials or troubleshooting
tools while skirting the original issue



"Skirting"? I don't think that's an appropriate word. You got several
suggestions on how to do this from others, as I recall, and I didn't
bother to repeat them. Later, I provided a list myself.


and implying that choosing to deal with
the Microsoft OS was simply a bad idea.


Not at all. I simply recommended what I felt was a better
easier-to-use approach.

I even provided a list of the built-in Windows ways to do this.

At the risk of repeating myself, here's a list of how to provide
special characters (not just Spanish) without using any extra
softwa

1. Use Alt-number key combinations

2. Use Character Map.

3. Use the US International keyboard.

3. Use whatever feature to do this may be built into your word
processor (Word?).

Once again, I don't want to try to talk you into anything you don't
want to do, but my view is that, although of the above can work, they
are more clumsy than the alternative I suggested, which is why I
suggested it.


Thirdly, I tried to remedy the situation again on my own and returned with no
solution to ask you again why a fresh install of XP Home has no 'alt #' text
capabilities...


Sorry, I haven't the foggiest idea. Are you perhaps not doing it
correctly (for example not having numlock on?)

--
Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User
Please Reply to the Newsgroup

"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in message...

Is Num Lock definitely on; i.e. do numbers appear when you hit the keys
on the numeric pad? If yes: Hold down Alt while you type 0191 on the
numeric keypad, then release Alt. You should get the upside-down
question mark ¿ . Any luck? If not, does it make any difference if you
use the other Alt key?

Thank you !!!

I just checked my front office XP box and thus solved the problem with a
phone call rather than another 30 mile journey.

It was in fact the absence of the active Num Lock key. The next time I am
in the client's office, I will set it as a boot-up default in the BIOS. I had him
turn it on manually and type his preferred key combinations, and they all
work fine.


Thank you, thank you, thank you.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.januarysound.com

On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 05:00:57 GMT, "David Morgan \(MAMS\)"
/Odm wrote:


Can you tell me what the hell I'm doing wrong, or not?


With an attitude like that, you're asking me for help?

Forget it. I've sent you several messages, including one a few minutes
ago, in another thread you apparently multiposted to, in an attempt
to help. End of thread, as far as I'm concerned.

--
Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User
Please Reply to the Newsgroup

"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 06:21:55 GMT, "David Morgan \(MAMS\)"
/Odm wrote:


"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote in message ...

On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 06:44:34 GMT, "David Morgan \(MAMS\)"
/Odm wrote:

"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote in message ...


Sorry Ken... I don't mean to be rude, but you responded to my earlier
querry regarding a problem that apparently rests either with my ignorance
or with the current (clean install) configuration of an MS XP operating system.

First, instead of addressing either, you referred me to a piece of OEM software
and suggested that I install it rather than to deal with the MS XP product features.


I recommended what I felt was the best way to deal with the situation.

Sorry Ken, Turning on the Number Lock was the most expiditious method,
and should have been (IMHO) the first suggestion and the best suggestion
to comply with the boundaries of the question. Installing an OEM piece of
software, configuring it, and teaching the client new key combinations is
hardly as acceptable as turning on the number lock switch.

I apologize for the lack of brain-power on my part, as Number Lock has
always been a BIOS default for me, and I've never encountered this issue
before in order to realize that it was even a requirement.

Not at all. I simply recommended what I felt was a better
easier-to-use approach.

Then I didn't state the question well enough and I assume full responsibility.
I didn't ask for the "best" way, or for an OEM installation.... I asked how to
turn on the 'alt' text in Windows XP.

I even provided a list of the built-in Windows ways to do this.

But not the KEY.

Sorry, I haven't the foggiest idea. Are you perhaps not doing it
correctly (for example not having numlock on?)

A perfect response to the initial question..... thank you.

DM

"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote on Mon, 4 Jun
2007:

[Nightowl wrote:]

Is Num Lock definitely on; i.e. do numbers appear when you hit the keys
on the numeric pad? If yes: Hold down Alt while you type 0191 on the
numeric keypad, then release Alt. You should get the upside-down
question mark ¿ . Any luck? If not, does it make any difference if you
use the other Alt key?

Thank you !!!

I just checked my front office XP box and thus solved the problem with a
phone call rather than another 30 mile journey.

It was in fact the absence of the active Num Lock key. The next time I
am in the client's office, I will set it as a boot-up default in the
BIOS. I had him turn it on manually and type his preferred key
combinations, and they all work fine.


Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Hi David

I'm so glad you solved the problem and your client is happy :-)

Just a word of caution, however: setting Num Lock on in the BIOS won't
make any difference to Windows, as XP ignores this setting. It does
though remember the last state of the key -- so if the minister has Num
Lock on when he shuts down, it will be switched on again the next time
he logs on.

The setting is stored in this registry key:
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Keyboard]
Value Name: InitialKeyboardIndicators
Value Type: REG_SZ
Data: 0 -- Num Lock will be turned off when XP starts; 2 -- Num Lock
will be turned on when XP starts.

Setting this to 2 isn't a permanent answer, unfortunately, as the on or
off status is written to the key when you log off or shut down. The best
thing is to tell the client to make sure Num Lock is on when he turns
off the computer, then he should be fine :-)

--
Nightowl

Hey Ken,
I heard from Allchar and they fixed the problem with the install. With
regard to using betas, I agree. The only reason I grabbed it to begin with
was that the description said it was an improvement on the last version...
With regard to a site for a lot of info regarding the OS,
I just love www.windowsannoyances.org.
Have a great day.
"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in message
news:bYC8i.4139$V01.491@trnddc02...

"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 19:43:54 GMT, "David Morgan \(MAMS\)"
/Odm wrote:


"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 11:47:01 -0700, Rhubarb
wrote:

Thanks Ken,
Just got it, looking forward to using it!


Great. After you've tried it for a while, let me (and others here)
know how you like it.



"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 08:19:20 GMT, "David Morgan \(MAMS\)"
/Odm wrote:

How does one enable alternate text characters for Spanish emphasis
using XP Home or MS Word in Office 2000?



I use and recommend a little freeware background program called
AllChars.

--
Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User
Please Reply to the Newsgroup


Should I assume that this means there is no standard 'alt' text function
included with the MS products??


No, don't assume that. You can use Character Map. You can use
Alt+numeric key combinations,. You can use the US International
keyboard.

As I said earlier, there's more than one way to do this. I just think
AllChars is by far the easiest to use.
would like to use the functions of the OS or anything in MS Word 2000.


I have followed ALL of the instructions on the MS website, windows updates
Office 2000 instructions and more, to no avail. I have tried all
documented
key combinations; I have assured that all forms of Latin text support are
loaded from the XP disk; I have tried multiple options and settings under
the US - International keyboard, and still there is no joy. No alternate
characters appear.

All three of his older PCs (Win-98 and upgrades to Ofc 2K from Ofc 97)
seem to have this function as a default, but they are slow and have no
hardware peripherals... and his ministry serves the latin population of
the
community his church is in, so he needs the Latin alternate characters...
only about 10 of them actually.

Is this a font issue?

Is there an OS glitch? Something I am missing in Word?

Where can I go to read more about this or garner troubleshooting tips?


TIA,

DM

(I did download 3.6.3 and the patch, but we are trying to keep his brand
new PC free of unecessary OEM software if at all possible... it is to be
a dedicated office box for a small ministry, and we're going to be relying
on long term tech support -if necessary- on the MS products he has
purchased).

OOPS! That should have been www.windowsannoyances.com. The first site I
mentioned seems to be rather commercial...I just went there to check the
link. (red face)
bye
"Narcoossee" wrote in message
...
Hey Ken,
I heard from Allchar and they fixed the problem with the install. With
regard to using betas, I agree. The only reason I grabbed it to begin with
was that the description said it was an improvement on the last version...
With regard to a site for a lot of info regarding the OS,
I just love www.windowsannoyances.org.
Have a great day.
"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in message
news:bYC8i.4139$V01.491@trnddc02...

"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 19:43:54 GMT, "David Morgan \(MAMS\)"
/Odm wrote:


"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 11:47:01 -0700, Rhubarb
wrote:

Thanks Ken,
Just got it, looking forward to using it!


Great. After you've tried it for a while, let me (and others here)
know how you like it.



"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 08:19:20 GMT, "David Morgan \(MAMS\)"
/Odm wrote:

How does one enable alternate text characters for Spanish
emphasis
using XP Home or MS Word in Office 2000?



I use and recommend a little freeware background program called
AllChars.

--
Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User
Please Reply to the Newsgroup


Should I assume that this means there is no standard 'alt' text
function
included with the MS products??


No, don't assume that. You can use Character Map. You can use
Alt+numeric key combinations,. You can use the US International
keyboard.

As I said earlier, there's more than one way to do this. I just think
AllChars is by far the easiest to use.
would like to use the functions of the OS or anything in MS Word 2000.


I have followed ALL of the instructions on the MS website, windows
updates
Office 2000 instructions and more, to no avail. I have tried all
documented
key combinations; I have assured that all forms of Latin text support are
loaded from the XP disk; I have tried multiple options and settings under
the US - International keyboard, and still there is no joy. No alternate
characters appear.

All three of his older PCs (Win-98 and upgrades to Ofc 2K from Ofc 97)
seem to have this function as a default, but they are slow and have no
hardware peripherals... and his ministry serves the latin population of
the
community his church is in, so he needs the Latin alternate characters...
only about 10 of them actually.

Is this a font issue?

Is there an OS glitch? Something I am missing in Word?

Where can I go to read more about this or garner troubleshooting tips?


TIA,

DM

(I did download 3.6.3 and the patch, but we are trying to keep his brand
new PC free of unecessary OEM software if at all possible... it is to be
a dedicated office box for a small ministry, and we're going to be
relying
on long term tech support -if necessary- on the MS products he has
purchased).

On Tue, 5 Jun 2007 11:07:58 -0400, "Narcoossee"
wrote:

Hey Ken,
I heard from Allchar and they fixed the problem with the install.


Great.


With
regard to using betas, I agree. The only reason I grabbed it to begin with
was that the description said it was an improvement on the last version...



Newer versions usually are, but I prefer to wait for the release
version.



"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in message
news:bYC8i.4139$V01.491@trnddc02...

"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 19:43:54 GMT, "David Morgan \(MAMS\)"
/Odm wrote:


"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 11:47:01 -0700, Rhubarb
wrote:

Thanks Ken,
Just got it, looking forward to using it!


Great. After you've tried it for a while, let me (and others here)
know how you like it.



"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 08:19:20 GMT, "David Morgan \(MAMS\)"
/Odm wrote:

How does one enable alternate text characters for Spanish emphasis
using XP Home or MS Word in Office 2000?



I use and recommend a little freeware background program called
AllChars.

--
Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User
Please Reply to the Newsgroup


Should I assume that this means there is no standard 'alt' text function
included with the MS products??


No, don't assume that. You can use Character Map. You can use
Alt+numeric key combinations,. You can use the US International
keyboard.

As I said earlier, there's more than one way to do this. I just think
AllChars is by far the easiest to use.
would like to use the functions of the OS or anything in MS Word 2000.


I have followed ALL of the instructions on the MS website, windows updates
Office 2000 instructions and more, to no avail. I have tried all
documented
key combinations; I have assured that all forms of Latin text support are
loaded from the XP disk; I have tried multiple options and settings under
the US - International keyboard, and still there is no joy. No alternate
characters appear.

All three of his older PCs (Win-98 and upgrades to Ofc 2K from Ofc 97)
seem to have this function as a default, but they are slow and have no
hardware peripherals... and his ministry serves the latin population of
the
community his church is in, so he needs the Latin alternate characters...
only about 10 of them actually.

Is this a font issue?

Is there an OS glitch? Something I am missing in Word?

Where can I go to read more about this or garner troubleshooting tips?


TIA,

DM

(I did download 3.6.3 and the patch, but we are trying to keep his brand
new PC free of unecessary OEM software if at all possible... it is to be
a dedicated office box for a small ministry, and we're going to be relying
on long term tech support -if necessary- on the MS products he has
purchased).



--
Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User
Please Reply to the Newsgroup

"Nightowl" ] wrote in message ...
"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote on Mon, 4 Jun
2007:

[Nightowl wrote:]

Is Num Lock definitely on; i.e. do numbers appear when you hit the keys
on the numeric pad? If yes: Hold down Alt while you type 0191 on the
numeric keypad, then release Alt. You should get the upside-down
question mark ¿ . Any luck? If not, does it make any difference if you
use the other Alt key?

Thank you !!!

I just checked my front office XP box and thus solved the problem with a
phone call rather than another 30 mile journey.

It was in fact the absence of the active Num Lock key. The next time I
am in the client's office, I will set it as a boot-up default in the
BIOS. I had him turn it on manually and type his preferred key
combinations, and they all work fine.


Thank you, thank you, thank you.


Hi David

I'm so glad you solved the problem and your client is happy :-)

Just a word of caution, however: setting Num Lock on in the BIOS won't
make any difference to Windows, as XP ignores this setting. It does
though remember the last state of the key -- so if the minister has Num
Lock on when he shuts down, it will be switched on again the next time
he logs on.

The setting is stored in this registry key:
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Keyboard]
Value Name: InitialKeyboardIndicators
Value Type: REG_SZ
Data: 0 -- Num Lock will be turned off when XP starts; 2 -- Num Lock
will be turned on when XP starts.

Setting this to 2 isn't a permanent answer, unfortunately, as the on or
off status is written to the key when you log off or shut down. The best
thing is to tell the client to make sure Num Lock is on when he turns
off the computer, then he should be fine :-)


Wow.... thanks a million again !!!

Most of my workstations are on 98SE or 2K, and I have a number of laptops
on XP Pro which I do *not* have technical uses for, and an office PC on XP
Home. I had *no idea* that the BIOS function which has served me so well
over the years and is still available, was overwritten by XP. Actually, I just
started migrating to XP about two years ago. I prefer 98 and 2K because
I know every folder that's in the OS and where it belongs. Such is apparently
not possible with XP, but I'm getting a grip on it as fast as I can.

This is a perfect case of ignorance and lack of experience with the OS.
I really appreciate the tip on the BIOS, as I assumed that I had made
the appropriate setting. And I surprise myself that after all these years
I really did not know that the number lock key had to be on for the alt
text to function.

Thank you again.

DM

Mon, 4 Jun 2007 18:21:29 +0100 from Nightowl ]:
Yes, you definitely should be able to use alt-codes in XP Home (or
Character Map, or the US International keyboard, as Ken said).

Can we go back to basics for a minute? Just in case there's something
funny with Word,

There *is* something funny with Word, as I discovered when I
installed Office 2003 on my computer. All other applications,
including Excel 2003 and Access 2003, accept the Alt-#### codes, but
Word does not. You have to enter the hex Unicode and then press Alt-
X. Even for Microsoft, this appears particularly silly, having one
application disable the OS standard way of entering special
characters.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/

"Stan Brown" wrote in message ...
Mon, 4 Jun 2007 18:21:29 +0100 from Nightowl ]:
Yes, you definitely should be able to use alt-codes in XP Home (or
Character Map, or the US International keyboard, as Ken said).

Can we go back to basics for a minute? Just in case there's something
funny with Word,

There *is* something funny with Word, as I discovered when I
installed Office 2003 on my computer. All other applications,
including Excel 2003 and Access 2003, accept the Alt-#### codes, but
Word does not. You have to enter the hex Unicode and then press Alt-
X. Even for Microsoft, this appears particularly silly, having one
application disable the OS standard way of entering special
characters.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/

I would equate this to or place it higher than the OS disabling the BIOS NumLock.

Stan Brown wrote on Wed, 6 Jun 2007:

There *is* something funny with Word, as I discovered when I
installed Office 2003 on my computer. All other applications,
including Excel 2003 and Access 2003, accept the Alt-#### codes, but
Word does not. You have to enter the hex Unicode and then press Alt-
X. Even for Microsoft, this appears particularly silly, having one
application disable the OS standard way of entering special
characters.

Gosh -- are you sure about this, Stan? Not that I'm doubting you, just
that I've never heard this before. How very odd. . . I can't check
myself as my version of Word is a very old one (2000). However I do know
that Word 2002's Insert Symbol dialog can show either Unicode or
Alt-code (your choice), and Wordpad in XP accepts both the Alt-codes and
the Unicode + Alt-X. It would seem nonsensical for Wordpad to have more
functionality than Word itself?

--
Nightowl

Stan Brown wrote:

Mon, 4 Jun 2007 18:21:29 +0100 from Nightowl ]:

Yes, you definitely should be able to use alt-codes in XP Home (or
Character Map, or the US International keyboard, as Ken said).

Can we go back to basics for a minute? Just in case there's something
funny with Word,


There *is* something funny with Word, as I discovered when I
installed Office 2003 on my computer. All other applications,
including Excel 2003 and Access 2003, accept the Alt-#### codes, but
Word does not. You have to enter the hex Unicode and then press Alt-
X. Even for Microsoft, this appears particularly silly, having one
application disable the OS standard way of entering special
characters.


Plain old Alt+0186 works just fine on my copy of Word 2003, no Alt-X or
any other fiddling around necessary. Perhaps yours needs a detect and
repair?