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I just had a radical idea



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 23rd 19, 05:05 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
lonelydad
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 39
Default I just had a radical idea

Why can't Microsoft post a notification when they are downloading
updates/upgrades? It would be nice to know why all of a sudden half my
download bandwith disappeared.

Even more radical - why don't they wait till it is outside of my set active
hours. Then it really wouldn't matter if they take up a majority of my
bandwidth, because I will be in bed sleeping the sleep of the just.

Just a thought, but to paraphrase a popular song, "Gee it would be nice if
you did."
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  #2  
Old February 23rd 19, 05:10 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
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Posts: 3,316
Default I just had a radical idea

On 2/22/19 9:05 PM, lonelydad wrote:
Why can't Microsoft post a notification when they are downloading
updates/upgrades? It would be nice to know why all of a sudden half my
download bandwith disappeared.

Even more radical - why don't they wait till it is outside of my set active
hours. Then it really wouldn't matter if they take up a majority of my
bandwidth, because I will be in bed sleeping the sleep of the just.

Just a thought, but to paraphrase a popular song, "Gee it would be nice if
you did."


Add to that, would it not be nice if they had a bugzilla bug
reporter.

And in-sourced their programmers back to the United States.

  #3  
Old February 23rd 19, 05:12 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
VanguardLH[_2_]
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Posts: 9,978
Default I just had a radical idea

lonelydad wrote:

Why can't Microsoft post a notification when they are downloading
updates/upgrades? It would be nice to know why all of a sudden half my
download bandwith disappeared.


Background Intelligent Transfer Service (BITS) will only use spare
bandwidth. If it is using half of your bandwidth means that you were
only using half and the other half would've been unused.

Even more radical - why don't they wait till it is outside of my set active
hours. Then it really wouldn't matter if they take up a majority of my
bandwidth, because I will be in bed sleeping the sleep of the just.


So, are you reporting that active hours aren't obeyed? Did you define
when are your active hours for that computer?

https://www.windowscentral.com/how-c...during-updates
  #4  
Old February 23rd 19, 06:04 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
GrtArtiste[_2_]
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Posts: 26
Default I just had a radical idea

On 2/23/2019 12:05 AM, lonelydad wrote:
Why can't Microsoft post a notification when they are downloading
updates/upgrades? It would be nice to know why all of a sudden half my
download bandwith disappeared.

Even more radical - why don't they wait till it is outside of my set active
hours. Then it really wouldn't matter if they take up a majority of my
bandwidth, because I will be in bed sleeping the sleep of the just.

Just a thought, but to paraphrase a popular song, "Gee it would be nice if
you did."


Because I'm curious...how much bandwidth is "half"?

My last updates have been using every last bit of my 25MB DSL. It also
hogs all of my measly 1.4 upload whenever anything gets sent to One Drive.

GrtArtiste
  #5  
Old February 23rd 19, 08:41 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Andy Burns[_6_]
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Posts: 878
Default I just had a radical idea

lonelydad wrote:

Why can't Microsoft post a notification when they are downloading
updates/upgrades? It would be nice to know why all of a sudden half my
download bandwith disappeared.


It shouldn't eat (much) bandwidth when you're using it yourself

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/bits/background-intelligent-transfer-service-portal
  #6  
Old February 23rd 19, 09:54 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 8,758
Default I just had a radical idea

VanguardLH wrote:
lonelydad wrote:

Why can't Microsoft post a notification when they are downloading
updates/upgrades? It would be nice to know why all of a sudden half my
download bandwith disappeared.


Background Intelligent Transfer Service (BITS) will only use spare
bandwidth. If it is using half of your bandwidth means that you were
only using half and the other half would've been unused.

Even more radical - why don't they wait till it is outside of my set active
hours. Then it really wouldn't matter if they take up a majority of my
bandwidth, because I will be in bed sleeping the sleep of the just.


So, are you reporting that active hours aren't obeyed? Did you define
when are your active hours for that computer?

https://www.windowscentral.com/how-c...during-updates


The OS Upgrade no longer uses BITS. You can try the BITSADMIN
utility (likely deprecated) and see what is going on.

bitsadmin /monitor /allusers

*******

My test case finally started running the 1809 upgrade just now. This is
where I disable DoSvc by setting it to Bypass, and also throttle the BITS
it will end up using for the Upgrade Install.

(Use "download original image")

https://i.postimg.cc/B6Kby0kS/thrott...GPEDIT-MSC.gif

Here, you can see it's only using one connection, even though
the BITS table has room for a couple more. And an interesting result,
is the download is *no slower* than it is with the crappy default method.
Microsoft appears to change the method they use, and uses a "large"
download over the single connection used.

https://i.postimg.cc/4xwnrw30/upgrade-throttled.gif

Whereas, downloading the DVD avoids all of this "puttering around"
to achieve a similar result.

While BITS was doing its single-connection download, my Surf Machine
was still able to surf the Internet without being slowed down. And
that's because the router "fair share" was only having to deal
with single connections from each machine. Rather than the Upgrade
machine machine-gunning the router and "stealing" all the fair-share.
As it's based on connection count and nothing else. "He who opens
the most connections on a home router, wins." That's my experience.

Paul
  #7  
Old February 23rd 19, 10:08 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,758
Default I just had a radical idea

GrtArtiste wrote:
On 2/23/2019 12:05 AM, lonelydad wrote:
Why can't Microsoft post a notification when they are downloading
updates/upgrades? It would be nice to know why all of a sudden half my
download bandwith disappeared.

Even more radical - why don't they wait till it is outside of my set
active
hours. Then it really wouldn't matter if they take up a majority of my
bandwidth, because I will be in bed sleeping the sleep of the just.

Just a thought, but to paraphrase a popular song, "Gee it would be
nice if
you did."


Because I'm curious...how much bandwidth is "half"?

My last updates have been using every last bit of my 25MB DSL. It also
hogs all of my measly 1.4 upload whenever anything gets sent to One Drive.

GrtArtiste


I wonder if there are any definitive articles explaining
how it's supposed to work.

The problem is, home routers are sensitive to "connection count".
When a Win10 machine opens 20 connections, it "hogs" the router.
It squeezes out a machine which is just using its web browser.

Yet, the Win10 machine is supposed to have some notion of bandwidth.
But bandwidth is *not* the problem. You can have two computers
downloading a DVD, and if each machine uses one connection for
the job, they each get 50% of link.

Now, even if you set the "bandwidth" on one machine to some
lesser number, it can still use an excess of connections
to foul up the usability of the home router for other
people in the house.

Bandwidth as a knob to twiddle is *not* the answer.
There's more to it.

And I just got my test case to run, the one I've been
waiting months for it to take off. And when I force fed
it the Feb 2019 Patch Tuesday, finally it started the Upgrade
download after that. And it did it with my modified BITS settings,
and it behaved nicely and the download went just as
fast without being a pig about it. It downloaded the whole
Upgrade, using no more than one connection. And it ran at
83% link while doing it. If I were to Web Surf on the other
machine, the transfer rate on the Win10 machine would
momentarily drop. In other words, fairly sharing my
home router.

Paul
  #8  
Old February 23rd 19, 11:31 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
GrtArtiste[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 26
Default I just had a radical idea

On 2/23/2019 5:08 AM, Paul wrote:
GrtArtiste wrote:
On 2/23/2019 12:05 AM, lonelydad wrote:
Why can't Microsoft post a notification when they are downloading
updates/upgrades? It would be nice to know why all of a sudden half my
download bandwith disappeared.

Even more radical - why don't they wait till it is outside of my set
active
hours. Then it really wouldn't matter if they take up a majority of my
bandwidth, because I will be in bed sleeping the sleep of the just.

Just a thought, but to paraphrase a popular song, "Gee it would be
nice if
you did."


Because I'm curious...how much bandwidth is "half"?

My last updates have been using every last bit of my 25MB DSL. It also
hogs all of my measly 1.4 upload whenever anything gets sent to One
Drive.

GrtArtiste


I wonder if there are any definitive articles explaining
how it's supposed to work.

The problem is, home routers are sensitive to "connection count".
When a Win10 machine opens 20 connections, it "hogs" the router.
It squeezes out a machine which is just using its web browser.

Yet, the Win10 machine is supposed to have some notion of bandwidth.
But bandwidth is *not* the problem. You can have two computers
downloading a DVD, and if each machine uses one connection for
the job, they each get 50% of link.

Now, even if you set the "bandwidth" on one machine to some
lesser number, it can still use an excess of connections
to foul up the usability of the home router for other
people in the house.

Bandwidth as a knob to twiddle is *not* the answer.
There's more to it.

And I just got my test case to run, the one I've been
waiting months for it to take off. And when I force fed
it the Feb 2019 Patch Tuesday, finally it started the Upgrade
download after that. And it did it with my modified BITS settings,
and it behaved nicely and the download went just as
fast without being a pig about it. It downloaded the whole
Upgrade, using no more than one connection. And it ran at
83% link while doing it. If I were to Web Surf on the other
machine, the transfer rate on the Win10 machine would
momentarily drop. In other words, fairly sharing my
home router.

** Paul


Thank you for the explanation. What concerns me though is that the vast
majority of users won't bother to modify their BITS settings and will
just live with it. So...does *more* bandwidth eventually become *enough*
bandwidth to mitigate the problem to any noticeable degree? Or will the
update/upgrade process always monopolize as much bandwidth as it can?
The OP originally said "half my download bandwidth disappeared". If that
was not just an guess/estimate, I'd like to know how much "half" really is.

GrtArtiste
  #9  
Old February 23rd 19, 11:48 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,758
Default I just had a radical idea

GrtArtiste wrote:
On 2/23/2019 5:08 AM, Paul wrote:
GrtArtiste wrote:
On 2/23/2019 12:05 AM, lonelydad wrote:
Why can't Microsoft post a notification when they are downloading
updates/upgrades? It would be nice to know why all of a sudden half my
download bandwith disappeared.

Even more radical - why don't they wait till it is outside of my set
active
hours. Then it really wouldn't matter if they take up a majority of my
bandwidth, because I will be in bed sleeping the sleep of the just.

Just a thought, but to paraphrase a popular song, "Gee it would be
nice if
you did."


Because I'm curious...how much bandwidth is "half"?

My last updates have been using every last bit of my 25MB DSL. It
also hogs all of my measly 1.4 upload whenever anything gets sent to
One Drive.

GrtArtiste


I wonder if there are any definitive articles explaining
how it's supposed to work.

The problem is, home routers are sensitive to "connection count".
When a Win10 machine opens 20 connections, it "hogs" the router.
It squeezes out a machine which is just using its web browser.

Yet, the Win10 machine is supposed to have some notion of bandwidth.
But bandwidth is *not* the problem. You can have two computers
downloading a DVD, and if each machine uses one connection for
the job, they each get 50% of link.

Now, even if you set the "bandwidth" on one machine to some
lesser number, it can still use an excess of connections
to foul up the usability of the home router for other
people in the house.

Bandwidth as a knob to twiddle is *not* the answer.
There's more to it.

And I just got my test case to run, the one I've been
waiting months for it to take off. And when I force fed
it the Feb 2019 Patch Tuesday, finally it started the Upgrade
download after that. And it did it with my modified BITS settings,
and it behaved nicely and the download went just as
fast without being a pig about it. It downloaded the whole
Upgrade, using no more than one connection. And it ran at
83% link while doing it. If I were to Web Surf on the other
machine, the transfer rate on the Win10 machine would
momentarily drop. In other words, fairly sharing my
home router.

Paul


Thank you for the explanation. What concerns me though is that the vast
majority of users won't bother to modify their BITS settings and will
just live with it. So...does *more* bandwidth eventually become *enough*
bandwidth to mitigate the problem to any noticeable degree? Or will the
update/upgrade process always monopolize as much bandwidth as it can?
The OP originally said "half my download bandwidth disappeared". If that
was not just an guess/estimate, I'd like to know how much "half" really is.

GrtArtiste


Well, I know the effect he's referring to, because I
first saw that about three releases ago. And it makes
your Surf Machine "slogging slow". I think at one point,
I even had a connection time out, because there wasn't
an opportunity to squeeze in a packet in time. Microsoft
did turn it down a bit, and I don't think they open quite
as many connections today as they did the first time
they used that method.

And if the Win10 machine is aggressive enough, it can
actually crash my router. My router isn't exactly a champ
(it would never be selected for usage with Tor), but I
was duly impressed that Windows 10 and its bad connection
habits, could actually tip the router section over. It doesn't
do that now. This generation of release is a little better
behaved and doesn't kill the router, but it still makes
the Surf Machine slow.

And as my test result shows, it's unnecessary to make
the process punishing like this. By turning off DoSvc
and going back to BITS, the download process used 83%
of the link (comparable to other cases), the download
finished in a decent time (it might have finished faster
than normal actually), and it only used the
one connection. I could surf on the Surf Machine as
if Windows Update wasn't even running. Which tells you
the process doesn't have to be crappy, to work.

Paul
  #10  
Old February 23rd 19, 12:51 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Keith Nuttle
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Posts: 1,723
Default I just had a radical idea

On 2/23/2019 12:05 AM, lonelydad wrote:
Why can't Microsoft post a notification when they are downloading
updates/upgrades? It would be nice to know why all of a sudden half my
download bandwith disappeared.

Even more radical - why don't they wait till it is outside of my set active
hours. Then it really wouldn't matter if they take up a majority of my
bandwidth, because I will be in bed sleeping the sleep of the just.

Just a thought, but to paraphrase a popular song, "Gee it would be nice if
you did."

It definitely would be nice to know when updates are going to be
downloaded. Now the only way to know is when the machine starts acting
strange or slow.

If there was a pre download flag, you could plan for the download. The
download could then be completed faster if you were not using the computer.

PS: Our computers are only on when we are using them, so the times for
download do not apply, as the computer may be off when MS wants to download.


--
2018: The year we learn to play the great game of Euchre
  #11  
Old February 23rd 19, 01:04 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,824
Default I just had a radical idea

In article , Paul
wrote:

The problem is, home routers are sensitive to "connection count".
When a Win10 machine opens 20 connections, it "hogs" the router.
It squeezes out a machine which is just using its web browser.


nonsense. home routers can handle many hundreds, if not many thousands
of simultaneous connections.

if 20 connections caused a problem, then all sorts of things wouldn't
work properly, or at all. a single web page often has more than that,
plus all the other stuff that's in use.
  #12  
Old February 23rd 19, 01:04 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
nospam
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Posts: 2,824
Default I just had a radical idea

In article , Paul
wrote:


And if the Win10 machine is aggressive enough, it can
actually crash my router.


then you have an incredibly ****ty router.
  #13  
Old February 23rd 19, 05:11 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
lonelydad
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 39
Default I just had a radical idea

GrtArtiste wrote in
:

On 2/23/2019 12:05 AM, lonelydad wrote:
Why can't Microsoft post a notification when they are downloading
updates/upgrades? It would be nice to know why all of a sudden half
my download bandwith disappeared.

Even more radical - why don't they wait till it is outside of my set
active hours. Then it really wouldn't matter if they take up a
majority of my bandwidth, because I will be in bed sleeping the sleep
of the just.

Just a thought, but to paraphrase a popular song, "Gee it would be
nice if you did."


Because I'm curious...how much bandwidth is "half"?

My last updates have been using every last bit of my 25MB DSL. It also
hogs all of my measly 1.4 upload whenever anything gets sent to One
Drive.

GrtArtiste

I have a 5mb/500kb DSL line. I started this post last night when I
noticed a big download going on, and said half because it appeared to be
half on the network monitoring screen I always have up. Now that you
mention it, the screen is set to display 7mbs max, so roughly half of
that would be somewhere around 3.5mbs to 4mbs, which is a larger
percentage than half. My point is that I have had times where I was
already using a good portion of my bandwidth for some other purpose, like
streaming a video. Then Microsoft kicks in, and all of a sudden my video
isn't streaming like it should.

It wouldn't take that much to implement. When my turn comes up in the
lottery, just ping my system and get my current active hours. If the time
is outside of those hours, just go ahead and download. If I am still in
my active zone, mark my download as pending with a start after marker.
Then whenever the system finishes a download they can check the pending
queue, and start sending to the first system on the list that qualifies.
After all, they are already checking my system for anything that would
disqualify me from getting the download, like the video problems with
1809. It shouldn't have a major impact on their download process, since
they have enough systems to download to to keep their effort going.
  #14  
Old February 23rd 19, 05:32 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
lonelydad
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 39
Default I just had a radical idea

Paul wrote in :

VanguardLH wrote:
lonelydad wrote:

Why can't Microsoft post a notification when they are downloading
updates/upgrades? It would be nice to know why all of a sudden half
my download bandwith disappeared.


Background Intelligent Transfer Service (BITS) will only use spare
bandwidth. If it is using half of your bandwidth means that you were
only using half and the other half would've been unused.

Even more radical - why don't they wait till it is outside of my set
active hours. Then it really wouldn't matter if they take up a
majority of my bandwidth, because I will be in bed sleeping the
sleep of the just.


So, are you reporting that active hours aren't obeyed? Did you
define when are your active hours for that computer?

Active hours is a setting that tells Microsoft that they are not to
remotely force a start of the upgrade process withint that time range. The
assumption is that either the machine is not in use at all, or can be
interrupted without problem outside of those hours. They have nothing to do
with when Microsoft downloads any updates to one's system.
  #15  
Old February 23rd 19, 05:37 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
lonelydad
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 39
Default I just had a radical idea

Paul wrote in :

GrtArtiste wrote:
On 2/23/2019 12:05 AM, lonelydad wrote:
Why can't Microsoft post a notification when they are downloading
updates/upgrades? It would be nice to know why all of a sudden half
my download bandwith disappeared.

Even more radical - why don't they wait till it is outside of my set
active
hours. Then it really wouldn't matter if they take up a majority of

Because I'm curious...how much bandwidth is "half"?


And I just got my test case to run, the one I've been
waiting months for it to take off. And when I force fed
it the Feb 2019 Patch Tuesday, finally it started the Upgrade
download after that. And it did it with my modified BITS settings,
and it behaved nicely and the download went just as
fast without being a pig about it. It downloaded the whole
Upgrade, using no more than one connection. And it ran at
83% link while doing it. If I were to Web Surf on the other
machine, the transfer rate on the Win10 machine would
momentarily drop. In other words, fairly sharing my
home router.

Paul


I know you explained what your were doing a while back on a similar
thread, but could you repeat it for those of us who didn't save your
answer that time?

 




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