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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10



 
 
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  #16  
Old March 7th 19, 05:49 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,327
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

"T" wrote

|Why is it again I need 300,386 different versions of Dot Net
installed anyway?
|

The VC runtime is smaller, but probably much worse in
terms of numbers. Programs are rigged to require the
exact compile of a 10-15 MB runtime that they were written
with.
On XP I have 3 versions of the VC2005 runtime, 3 for
2008, along with 6 hotfixes, one for VC2010 and one
for VC 2012. And I don't actually install much software.

On the bright side, I could fit 50-100 of those in the
space that the .Net slop takes up, and I don't even have
the latest and bloatedest of those.

But software on Windows works. Most doesn't require
lots of extra support libraries that are not part of the install.
And it won't be outdated in a year. I can write software
that runs on Win98-Win10 without needing extra support
libraries. How many of your programs in the latest Fedora
will even run on 3-year-old Fedora, much less 15-year-old
Red Hat? And how many 3-year-old programs will run on the
latest version? In my experience, even updating the stuff
that comes on the CD requires updating vast numbers of
system libraries.

That's why Windows is everywhere. They catered to
businesses, made programming relatively easy, and
made backward compatibility a religion. I'm using an
18 year old OS and most current software runs fine
on it. And there's lots of software. The only way for
Linux to look good is the extremely low expectations
you have: You test in a VM, put up with lots of broken
updates, and don't expect backward compatibility.
For that matter, you don't even expect a good variety
of software. Behind almost every Linux or Apple fan
is a Windows box that they use "when they need to
do work".

Yes, you can set up a
Grandma as long as you show her how to do web
browsing and email. My very elderly father used to use
a Linux kiosk-type system for the elderly, called Wow.
It was a very limited, giant tablet with no access to
the file system. People could also use an iPad. But
having a good desktop that can be used for years
without having to update, and with all the software
you want available.... that's not going to happen.

If only it was worth it for some charitable foundation
to make it work, then there could be hope. If people
decided that the public needs a good, unfettered,
non-commercial, standardized system then Windows
could be dropped. But the closest to that so far was
Shuttleworth, who ended up shipping adware. Linux
started with an idea something like that, but it was only
geeks making an OS for geeks.

The only real solution would be create
an organization so big and connected that everyone
would see it as worthwhile to invest their time and
programming in that one system, which would then
be universal. Sort of like what HTML is now, despite
attempts by the likes of AOL, Facebook, Google,
Microsoft, and Adobe to usurp the Internet.

What's more likely to happen is that some pseudo-
philanthropist like Bill Gates will decide to save the
world with his brilliance and offer to create a free
spyware product. Then we'll all be distracted discussing
whether the Gatesmobile OS, or the Getty Foundation
OS, is going to be the next big thing, until it finally isn't.

(I just read the other day that Bill Gates, after having
ceremoniously given away much of his wealth, is
currently worth $96B. $6B more than last year. I guess
generosity is good work if you can get it.)



Ads
  #17  
Old March 7th 19, 06:36 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Rene Lamontagne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,800
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 03/07/2019 11:49 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"T" wrote

|Why is it again I need 300,386 different versions of Dot Net
installed anyway?
|

The VC runtime is smaller, but probably much worse in
terms of numbers. Programs are rigged to require the
exact compile of a 10-15 MB runtime that they were written
with.
On XP I have 3 versions of the VC2005 runtime, 3 for
2008, along with 6 hotfixes, one for VC2010 and one
for VC 2012. And I don't actually install much software.

On the bright side, I could fit 50-100 of those in the
space that the .Net slop takes up, and I don't even have
the latest and bloatedest of those.

But software on Windows works. Most doesn't require
lots of extra support libraries that are not part of the install.
And it won't be outdated in a year. I can write software
that runs on Win98-Win10 without needing extra support
libraries. How many of your programs in the latest Fedora
will even run on 3-year-old Fedora, much less 15-year-old
Red Hat? And how many 3-year-old programs will run on the
latest version? In my experience, even updating the stuff
that comes on the CD requires updating vast numbers of
system libraries.

That's why Windows is everywhere. They catered to
businesses, made programming relatively easy, and
made backward compatibility a religion. I'm using an
18 year old OS and most current software runs fine
on it. And there's lots of software. The only way for
Linux to look good is the extremely low expectations
you have: You test in a VM, put up with lots of broken
updates, and don't expect backward compatibility.
For that matter, you don't even expect a good variety
of software. Behind almost every Linux or Apple fan
is a Windows box that they use "when they need to
do work".

Yes, you can set up a
Grandma as long as you show her how to do web
browsing and email. My very elderly father used to use
a Linux kiosk-type system for the elderly, called Wow.
It was a very limited, giant tablet with no access to
the file system. People could also use an iPad. But
having a good desktop that can be used for years
without having to update, and with all the software
you want available.... that's not going to happen.

If only it was worth it for some charitable foundation
to make it work, then there could be hope. If people
decided that the public needs a good, unfettered,
non-commercial, standardized system then Windows
could be dropped. But the closest to that so far was
Shuttleworth, who ended up shipping adware. Linux
started with an idea something like that, but it was only
geeks making an OS for geeks.

The only real solution would be create
an organization so big and connected that everyone
would see it as worthwhile to invest their time and
programming in that one system, which would then
be universal. Sort of like what HTML is now, despite
attempts by the likes of AOL, Facebook, Google,
Microsoft, and Adobe to usurp the Internet.

What's more likely to happen is that some pseudo-
philanthropist like Bill Gates will decide to save the
world with his brilliance and offer to create a free
spyware product. Then we'll all be distracted discussing
whether the Gatesmobile OS, or the Getty Foundation
OS, is going to be the next big thing, until it finally isn't.

(I just read the other day that Bill Gates, after having
ceremoniously given away much of his wealth, is
currently worth $96B. $6B more than last year. I guess
generosity is good work if you can get it.)




Nice to see many of my old Windows 95, 98 and XP programs still work in
Windows 10
Jasc paint shop pro 7
Resume maker.
Avery Label maker etc.

I have 2 CD cases with about 50 or 70 program CDs going back over the
last 24 years, most of them still install and run on Windows 10.
Pretty nice backwards compatibility Eh.
Lets see Linux do that, aLso my 12 year old Okidata c5150n printer still
works fine with the same drivers and no hassle install on Windows 10.
Every time Linux Mint updates I have to fight with it to get it to work
on Mint. Now don't get me wrong I like Mint 19.1 but when I need to do
serious work or do colour printing I have to stay with Windows.

Rene



  #18  
Old March 7th 19, 08:11 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,758
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

T wrote:
On 3/6/19 11:42 PM, Paul wrote:
Dammit,
it worked *perfectly* at one point. How annoying


You sound like a Dot Net programmer! :-)

Why is it again I need 300,386 different versions of Dot Net
installed anyway?


Simple.

The versions stopped being useful after 3.5.

But if you put 4.7 in the latest Visual Studio,
the developer is clueless and compiles in a 4.7
dependency, a WinXP user can't install 4.7, and the WinXP
user will be "too bad, so sad" and will immediately
run out and buy a Win10 computer :-/ Or so I'm told.

Up to a certain number, they were "layers in a cake".
Later, versioning was used to deprecate (stick a fork in)
older OSes.

Everything above 3.5 is "imaginary", like
"Sparkle Ponies", and is there just to rubbish
the older OSes. (So you can't use Vista say.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Framework

*******

Java has a stack too, yet you don't see versioning
being waved around like a club. Java uses its numbers
for versions, and obviously at some point, older
stuff falls out of support. But they don't use
version numbers with quite as much glee as Microsoft does.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/T2QZK.png

*******

As for Mayayanas mention of VSRuntimes, I had a kooky
experience the other day. I tried to run the latest
Intel Processor Identification Utility.

1) Try to install
2) Wants .NET 4.7 or whatever. Great.
Doesn't have it onboard. And the user is expected
to Google ass off to find it.
3) Go back and try and install again.
Wants VS Runtime of some year, leaving the
user to puzzle out exactly which download that
would be, and whether both the x86 and x64 need
to be installed.
4) Try to install again. Finally, installs.

5) Run program. Prints three or four numbers on the
screen. The kind of stuff you could get with
"two Peeks()" :-) The C program to do that would
be about ten lines long. The problem ? You'd have
to run as Administrator.

Just... awful... What were they thinking ?

Why does software have to be *that* bad, exactly ?

Is this a skill they could teach in a university, or what ?

Paul
  #19  
Old March 7th 19, 10:02 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,316
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/7/19 10:36 AM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
On 03/07/2019 11:49 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"T" wrote

|Why is it again I need 300,386 different versions of Dot Net
installed anyway?
|

¬*¬*¬* The VC runtime is smaller, but probably much worse in
terms of numbers. Programs are rigged to require the
exact compile of a 10-15 MB runtime that they were written
with.
¬*¬*¬* On XP I have 3 versions of the VC2005 runtime, 3 for
2008, along with 6 hotfixes, one for VC2010 and one
for VC 2012. And I don't actually install much software.

¬*¬* On the bright side, I could fit 50-100 of those in the
space that the .Net slop takes up, and I don't even have
the latest and bloatedest of those.

¬*¬* But software on Windows works. Most doesn't require
lots of extra support libraries that are not part of the install.
And it won't be outdated in a year. I can write software
that runs on Win98-Win10 without needing extra support
libraries. How many of your programs in the latest Fedora
will even run on 3-year-old Fedora, much less 15-year-old
Red Hat? And how many 3-year-old programs will run on the
latest version? In my experience, even updating the stuff
that comes on the CD requires updating vast numbers of
system libraries.

¬*¬*¬* That's why Windows is everywhere. They catered to
businesses, made programming relatively easy, and
made backward compatibility a religion. I'm using an
18 year old OS and most current software runs fine
on it. And there's lots of software. The only way for
Linux to look good is the extremely low expectations
you have: You test in a VM, put up with lots of broken
updates, and don't expect backward compatibility.
For that matter, you don't even expect a good variety
of software. Behind almost every Linux or Apple fan
is a Windows box that they use "when they need to
do work".

¬*¬*¬* Yes, you can set up a
Grandma as long as you show her how to do web
browsing and email. My very elderly father used to use
a Linux kiosk-type system for the elderly, called Wow.
It was a very limited, giant tablet with no access to
the file system. People could also use an iPad. But
having a good desktop that can be used for years
without having to update, and with all the software
you want available.... that's not going to happen.

¬*¬* If only it was worth it for some charitable foundation
to make it work, then there could be hope. If people
decided that the public needs a good, unfettered,
non-commercial, standardized system then Windows
could be dropped. But the closest to that so far was
Shuttleworth, who ended up shipping adware. Linux
started with an idea something like that, but it was only
geeks making an OS for geeks.

¬*¬*¬* The only real solution would be create
an organization so big and connected that everyone
would see it as worthwhile to invest their time and
programming in that one system, which would then
be universal. Sort of like what HTML is now, despite
attempts by the likes of AOL, Facebook, Google,
Microsoft, and Adobe to usurp the Internet.

¬*¬*¬* What's more likely to happen is that some pseudo-
philanthropist like Bill Gates will decide to save the
world with his brilliance and offer to create a free
spyware product. Then we'll all be distracted discussing
whether the Gatesmobile OS, or the Getty Foundation
OS, is going to be the next big thing, until it finally isn't.

¬*¬* (I just read the other day that Bill Gates, after having
ceremoniously given away much of his wealth, is
currently worth $96B. $6B more than last year. I guess
generosity is good work if you can get it.)




Nice to see many of my old¬* Windows 95, 98 and XP programs still work in
Windows 10
Jasc paint shop pro 7
Resume maker.
Avery Label maker etc.

I have 2 CD cases with about 50 or 70 program CDs going back over the
last 24 years, most of them still install and run on Windows 10.
Pretty nice backwards compatibility Eh.
Lets see Linux do that, aLso my 12 year old Okidata c5150n printer still
works fine with the same drivers and no hassle install on Windows 10.
Every time Linux Mint updates I have to fight with it to get it to work
on Mint. Now don't get me wrong I like Mint 19.1 but when I need to do
serious work or do colour printing I have to stay with Windows.

Rene





Very interesting.

I have had a different experience. Do you guys remember the "Most
compatible Windows ever (Vista)" (liars)? I made a fine living
for a couple of years reverting Vista users back to XP, whist
their software vendors struggled to figure out what M$ broke
this time.

It is very common for new version of Windows to trash old versions
of software that my customer use. Backwards compatibility, my ass.

I have a retired radio design engineer for a customer. I love
visiting him as I also am a former radio designer and he
has a lab in his basement to die for. His still designs
things as a hobby. Even does moon bounces.

Part of his weaponry is a slew of 8 bit and 16 programs
for running radio design analysis. And he can't replace
them as no one out there understand the technology enough
to write a suitable replacement (I can personally verify
he is correct).

Obviously, none of his programs will work under Windows 10,
x64. They do, by the way, run perfectly under Linux's Wine
and Dos Box. What we finally wound up doing was getting
a refurbished XP computer from the used computer store
and he runs it off line in his lab. So now he
has both a w10 and a XP computer in his lab.

My experience with Linux is wild. First off, I have had
zero trouble with Fedora. Well, not exactly zero, but few
and the developers are very responsive and fix things usually
within a month.

M$ fix anything ???? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What I have had trouble with is RHEL and clones (cent OS,
Scientific Linux). RHEL is an anti Kaisen OS, meaning it
is locked down to an old, defunct version of Fedora and
has very little development done in itas to not "break
things". I have bug reports out on it that are over seven
years old that have not been addressed. By the way, you
can make your own RHEL from any OS by simply turning off
your updates.

RHEL fix anything ???? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

RHEL drove me insane. I lost it when a bug in Osmo
deleted my business contacts (I have a lot of backup)
and Osmo had already fixed it, but RHEL was too far
out of date for Osmo to help me. And qemu-kwm,
Red Hat's premier virtual machine, could not run
any of their wonderful enhancements and bugs fixes
for the same reason as Osmo could not.

The irony that KVM is a Red Hat project and could not
run their fixes and enhancements on RHEL was not lost
on me. When I wiped and reinstalled Fedora, my eyes
were wide open watching all the things I had been
suffering with get fixed. It was over a year
ago and I still get a case of the giggles running
Fedora.

Every new Windows breaks all kinds of my customer's
stuff. It is a real merry go round. Fortunately,
I am always able to help them around it one way or
another. I hold my breath every time 10 comes out
with a new build.

For those Windows users that can not longer run
their old programs under the latest version of
Windows, Linux's Wine and Dos Box is an option,
as is running a virtual machine of whatever version
of Windows is required to run their programs.


  #20  
Old March 7th 19, 10:12 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,316
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/7/19 12:11 PM, Paul wrote:
The¬*versions¬*stopped¬*being¬*useful¬*after¬*3.5.


That was my "feeling". Thank you for the confirmation!

Windows 7 has the hardest time installing its dot net
updates. I have found that you install all the updates
but the dot net. Once they are all on, do the dot
net one at a time and reboot, reboot, reboot, reboot.

Did I mention reboot?


  #21  
Old March 7th 19, 10:36 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,327
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

"T" wrote


Every new Windows breaks all kinds of my customer's
stuff. It is a real merry go round.


Like what? 64-bit does break 16-bit, but 32-bit
is entirely supported. The only drawback is that
the two can't run in the same process, so you
can't use things like 32-bit shell extensions in
64-bit. Aside from that, most things should be fine.

Microsoft have always been very careful about
backward compatibility because businesses write
custom software and need it to keep working. If
they can't move their software to the next version
they might not buy the next version.

Linux, by contrast, is a hobby. And Apple deliberately
breaks things to force people to buy new. It's 3
different markets: business, geek, retail consumer.



  #22  
Old March 7th 19, 10:59 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,316
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/7/19 2:36 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"T" wrote


Every new Windows breaks all kinds of my customer's
stuff. It is a real merry go round.


Like what? 64-bit does break 16-bit, but 32-bit
is entirely supported. The only drawback is that
the two can't run in the same process, so you
can't use things like 32-bit shell extensions in
64-bit. Aside from that, most things should be fine.


As far as I can tell, you can run 16 bit on w10-32 bit,
but not on w10-64 bit.

Oh my goodness the things new version of Windows breaks!
My experience is the opposite of yours.


Microsoft have always been very careful about
backward compatibility because businesses write
custom software and need it to keep working.


Our experiences differ wildly. Shows there is always
more to the story than meets the eye.

If
they can't move their software to the next version
they might not buy the next version.

Linux, by contrast, is a hobby.


Linux rules the back office. You can use it as a hobby, if
you like. But it is the real deal and very, very professionally
done. Linux even replaced Windows on the International space station
for obvious reasons. Linux's draw back is the lack of applications.
Windows rules the app world.

If you are having trouble running Linux, you could always ping me.
I will help if I can. Lord know I own you a bunch of favors anyway.

And Apple deliberately
breaks things to force people to buy new. It's 3
different markets: business, geek, retail consumer.


I call it the Apple Straight Jacket. The mommy state
gone berserk. Weird for the sake of weirdness.
And I hate their mice and keyboard: dysfunctional
Artsy-fartsy. I do so adore mice roller balls
scrolling the opposite directions as does Windows and Linux.


  #23  
Old March 7th 19, 11:00 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Rene Lamontagne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,800
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 03/07/2019 4:12 PM, T wrote:
On 3/7/19 12:11 PM, Paul wrote:
The¬*versions¬*stopped¬*being¬*useful¬*after¬*3.5.


That was my "feeling".¬* Thank you for the confirmation!

Windows 7 has the hardest time installing its dot net
updates.¬* I have found that you install all the updates
but the dot net.¬* Once they are all on, do the dot
net one at a time and reboot, reboot, reboot, reboot.

Did I mention reboot?




Did you forget Reboot? :-)

Rene
  #24  
Old March 7th 19, 11:28 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,316
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/7/19 3:00 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
On 03/07/2019 4:12 PM, T wrote:
On 3/7/19 12:11 PM, Paul wrote:
The¬*versions¬*stopped¬*being¬*useful¬*after¬*3.5.


That was my "feeling".¬* Thank you for the confirmation!

Windows 7 has the hardest time installing its dot net
updates.¬* I have found that you install all the updates
but the dot net.¬* Once they are all on, do the dot
net one at a time and reboot, reboot, reboot, reboot.

Did I mention reboot?




Did you forget Reboot?¬* :-)

Rene


Crap! I forgot the reboot again! You'd think
by this time I'd ...

  #25  
Old March 7th 19, 11:40 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,824
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

In article , Mayayana
wrote:


Microsoft have always been very careful about
backward compatibility because businesses write
custom software and need it to keep working. If
they can't move their software to the next version
they might not buy the next version.


true, but the downside of that is it inhibits progress.

Linux, by contrast, is a hobby.


for desktop that's mostly true, however, for servers and embedded
devices, it's absolutely false.

And Apple deliberately
breaks things to force people to buy new.


false. apple goes well out of their way to keep old stuff working, and
if something is deprecated, developers get *ample* warning ahead of
time.

It's 3
different markets: business, geek, retail consumer.


no.
  #26  
Old March 7th 19, 11:40 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,824
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

In article , wrote:

And Apple deliberately
breaks things to force people to buy new. It's 3
different markets: business, geek, retail consumer.


I call it the Apple Straight Jacket. The mommy state
gone berserk. Weird for the sake of weirdness.


there is no straight jacket nor are they weird just to be weird.

And I hate their mice and keyboard: dysfunctional
Artsy-fartsy.


there is no requirement to use apple's mice or keyboards. use whatever
you want, the same as any other computer.

mice and keyboards are *very* subjective. that's one reason why there
are so many different ones.

I do so adore mice roller balls
scrolling the opposite directions as does Windows and Linux.


scroll direction can be changed.
  #27  
Old March 7th 19, 11:47 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,316
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/7/19 8:57 AM, dave61430 wrote:
On Thu, 07 Mar 2019 02:42:26 -0500, Paul wrote:

T wrote:
On 3/6/19 6:09 PM, Paul wrote:
And I still don't believe a bit, the stories about "I gave my grandma
Linux and she hasn't phoned back since".

I have a few Grandmas" on Linux. They still call me, but when they buy
a new printer. They also often forget where the print button is in
Firefox. "Its printing! Who'd you do that?", "I pressed the print
button". Then I show them the print button, again. (Linux's HP print
support is getting pretty good as of late. They should still call me
first though.)

I put them on Xfce and configure the toobars to look like XP. And I

snippped

Paul, kowlegeable guy that you are, you seem to have overlooked the
wishes and desires of the typical 'grandma'.
She doesn't want to setup network connections (if they are needed the
helpful relatives would have done that for her), she also wont be
installing virtualbox, or any software that requires downloading. Should
she ever need a piece of software available in the software manager, she
can do it with one mouse click without a reboot. She will not need to
enter terminal mode.
Ah, the wonderful reboot, no need to worry about that in windows, windows
will do it whether you want it or not.
Personally, I would recommend the Mint version of Linux. Now before this
reply generates a bunch of responses or heaven forbid, wakes up GoodGuy,
let me add I know Linux is not for everyone. Some people have work
restrictions and/or need specific windows only programs.
But the old argument that Linux is hard to use just won't wash with a
distribution like Mint or Ubuntu and Mint comes with just about any
program you might normally need.
For those slightly (but only just slightly) a little more adventurous
than poor old grandma, virtualbox running windows 7 is great for people
like me who have a very occasional program needing windows - Intuit
willmaker in my case. Not quicken, use Gnucash and it will import all
your quicken stuff. The helpful relative can do this for grandma.
End of rant!


I have found Linux's various desktops as easy to use as Windows 7
and a lot easier to use than Windows 10 for a long time now.

As for granny, set up Mate or Xfce to look like XP and make sure
she can print, surf, and do her eMail.

The only draw back to Linux is the lack off applications.

Brave and Firefox both work under Linux very nicely. Brave
is faster, but lacks pop up support. Firefox has a lot
a nice developers tools of which granny's could care less.

  #28  
Old March 8th 19, 12:19 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,free.spam
John Doe[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,710
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

Regular troll from Apple groups...

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Subject: Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
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In article q5s6g1$4tq$1 dont-email.me, Mayayana
mayayana invalid.nospam wrote:


Microsoft have always been very careful about
backward compatibility because businesses write
custom software and need it to keep working. If
they can't move their software to the next version
they might not buy the next version.


true, but the downside of that is it inhibits progress.

Linux, by contrast, is a hobby.


for desktop that's mostly true, however, for servers and embedded
devices, it's absolutely false.

And Apple deliberately
breaks things to force people to buy new.


false. apple goes well out of their way to keep old stuff working, and
if something is deprecated, developers get *ample* warning ahead of
time.

It's 3
different markets: business, geek, retail consumer.


no.



  #29  
Old March 8th 19, 01:27 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Rene Lamontagne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,800
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 03/07/2019 4:02 PM, T wrote:
On 3/7/19 10:36 AM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
On 03/07/2019 11:49 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"T" wrote

|Why is it again I need 300,386 different versions of Dot Net
installed anyway?
|

¬*¬*¬* The VC runtime is smaller, but probably much worse in
terms of numbers. Programs are rigged to require the
exact compile of a 10-15 MB runtime that they were written
with.
¬*¬*¬* On XP I have 3 versions of the VC2005 runtime, 3 for
2008, along with 6 hotfixes, one for VC2010 and one
for VC 2012. And I don't actually install much software.

¬*¬* On the bright side, I could fit 50-100 of those in the
space that the .Net slop takes up, and I don't even have
the latest and bloatedest of those.

¬*¬* But software on Windows works. Most doesn't require
lots of extra support libraries that are not part of the install.
And it won't be outdated in a year. I can write software
that runs on Win98-Win10 without needing extra support
libraries. How many of your programs in the latest Fedora
will even run on 3-year-old Fedora, much less 15-year-old
Red Hat? And how many 3-year-old programs will run on the
latest version? In my experience, even updating the stuff
that comes on the CD requires updating vast numbers of
system libraries.

¬*¬*¬* That's why Windows is everywhere. They catered to
businesses, made programming relatively easy, and
made backward compatibility a religion. I'm using an
18 year old OS and most current software runs fine
on it. And there's lots of software. The only way for
Linux to look good is the extremely low expectations
you have: You test in a VM, put up with lots of broken
updates, and don't expect backward compatibility.
For that matter, you don't even expect a good variety
of software. Behind almost every Linux or Apple fan
is a Windows box that they use "when they need to
do work".

¬*¬*¬* Yes, you can set up a
Grandma as long as you show her how to do web
browsing and email. My very elderly father used to use
a Linux kiosk-type system for the elderly, called Wow.
It was a very limited, giant tablet with no access to
the file system. People could also use an iPad. But
having a good desktop that can be used for years
without having to update, and with all the software
you want available.... that's not going to happen.

¬*¬* If only it was worth it for some charitable foundation
to make it work, then there could be hope. If people
decided that the public needs a good, unfettered,
non-commercial, standardized system then Windows
could be dropped. But the closest to that so far was
Shuttleworth, who ended up shipping adware. Linux
started with an idea something like that, but it was only
geeks making an OS for geeks.

¬*¬*¬* The only real solution would be create
an organization so big and connected that everyone
would see it as worthwhile to invest their time and
programming in that one system, which would then
be universal. Sort of like what HTML is now, despite
attempts by the likes of AOL, Facebook, Google,
Microsoft, and Adobe to usurp the Internet.

¬*¬*¬* What's more likely to happen is that some pseudo-
philanthropist like Bill Gates will decide to save the
world with his brilliance and offer to create a free
spyware product. Then we'll all be distracted discussing
whether the Gatesmobile OS, or the Getty Foundation
OS, is going to be the next big thing, until it finally isn't.

¬*¬* (I just read the other day that Bill Gates, after having
ceremoniously given away much of his wealth, is
currently worth $96B. $6B more than last year. I guess
generosity is good work if you can get it.)




Nice to see many of my old¬* Windows 95, 98 and XP programs still work
in Windows 10
Jasc paint shop pro 7
Resume maker.
Avery Label maker etc.

I have 2 CD cases with about 50 or 70 program CDs going back over the
last 24 years, most of them still install and run on Windows 10.
Pretty nice backwards compatibility Eh.
Lets see Linux do that, aLso my 12 year old Okidata c5150n printer
still works fine with the same drivers and no hassle install on
Windows 10.
Every time Linux Mint updates I have to fight with it to get it to
work on Mint. Now don't get me wrong I like Mint 19.1 but when I need
to do serious work or do colour printing I have to stay with Windows.

Rene





Very interesting.

I have had a different experience.¬* Do you guys remember the "Most
compatible Windows ever (Vista)" (liars)?¬* I made a fine living
for a couple of years reverting Vista users back to XP, whist
their software vendors struggled to figure out what M$ broke
this time.

It is very common for new version of Windows to trash old versions
of software that my customer use.¬* Backwards compatibility, my ass.

I have a retired radio design engineer for a customer.¬* I love
visiting him as I also am a former radio designer and he
has a lab in his basement to die for.¬* His still designs
things as a hobby.¬* Even does moon bounces.

Part of his weaponry is a slew of 8 bit and 16 programs
for running radio design analysis.¬* And he can't replace
them as no one out there understand the technology enough
to write a suitable replacement (I can personally verify
he is correct).

Obviously, none of his programs will work under Windows 10,
x64.¬* They do, by the way, run perfectly under Linux's Wine
and Dos Box.¬* What we finally wound up doing was getting
a refurbished XP computer from the used computer store
and he runs it off line in his lab.¬* So now he
has both a w10 and a XP computer in his lab.

My experience with Linux is wild.¬* First off, I have had
zero trouble with Fedora.¬* Well, not exactly zero, but few
and the developers are very responsive and fix things usually
within a month.

M$ fix anything ????¬* HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What I have had trouble with is RHEL and clones (cent OS,
Scientific Linux).¬* RHEL is an anti Kaisen OS, meaning it
is locked down to an old, defunct version of Fedora and
has very little development done in itas to not "break
things".¬* I have bug reports out on it that are over seven
years old that have not been addressed.¬* By the way, you
can make your own RHEL from any OS by simply turning off
your updates.

RHEL fix anything ????¬* HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

RHEL drove me insane.¬* I lost it when a bug in Osmo
deleted my business contacts (I have a lot of backup)
and Osmo had already fixed it, but RHEL was too far
out of date for Osmo to help me.¬* And qemu-kwm,
Red Hat's premier virtual machine, could not run
any of their wonderful enhancements and bugs fixes
for the same reason as Osmo could not.

The irony that KVM is a Red Hat project and could not
run their fixes and enhancements on RHEL was not lost
on me.¬* When I wiped and reinstalled Fedora, my eyes
were wide open¬* watching all the things I had been
suffering with get fixed.¬* It was over a year
ago and I still get a case of the giggles running
Fedora.

Every new Windows breaks all kinds of my customer's
stuff.¬* It is a real merry go round.¬* Fortunately,
I am always able to help them around it one way or
another.¬*¬* I hold my breath every time 10 comes out
with a new build.

For those Windows users that can not longer run
their old programs under the latest version of
Windows, Linux's Wine and Dos Box is an option,
as is running a virtual machine of whatever version
of Windows is required to run their programs.



Hah, I too designed a radio back about 1973.
I used a 75 watt McIntosh amplifier, A Sony 5 deck cassette player, 3 30
watt outdoor horns 75 feet of 12 gauge twisted pair stranded speaker
cable, about 150 feet of Belden twisted pair shielded cable with XLR
balanced connectors and a Shure high quality microphone.
I set this up on an outdoor skating rink for the Concert hall,
Planetarium and Museum where I worked.
The equipment was in the underground parkad, The speakers were mounted
on a lamp standard about 12 feet high and the Mic was at the other end
of the rink in the warmup shelter.
Well when I got this up and running we Found that we were receiving
Radio station CKY at 580 KC Loud and Clear.
Needless to say I had to quickly round up some RF chokes and resistors
and brew up a notch filter to eliminate this unwelcome guest. :-) great
times


Rene



  #30  
Old March 8th 19, 01:37 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 172
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/7/2019 2:59 PM, T wrote:
Linux even replaced Windows on the International space station
for obvious reasons.


This keeps popping up like it was relevant.
The space station does not run linux in the context
related here. You won't find it on distrowatch.

I'll wager that thousands of gurus built a fixed
APPLIANCE. They tested the crap of it, then tested it
again.

How often do you think space station inhabitants install
programs off the web? Or install updates? If an issue arises,
the gurus are on it.

The fact that linux OS sits underneath is irrelevant.
What makes it work is a gaggle of gurus and STRICT controls
over what can be done by users.

That's also what it takes to make ubuntu work for grandma.
 




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