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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10



 
 
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  #61  
Old March 10th 19, 05:16 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Bonk[_2_]
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Posts: 1
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 03/09/2019 09:14 AM, nospam wrote:
In article , Mayayana
wrote:


snip ~100 line rant about Mamayaya couldn't care less

We couldn't care less. (And anyway, people in the Linux groups
are too uncivilzed to talk to.


what a wonderful demonstration of your hypocrisy.

first you insult all linux and apple users, then you try to claim that
windows users don't care.

you don't speak for all windows users, but if you didn't care, you
wouldn't have written so many paragraphs trashing everything.

why does it bother you so much what other people choose to use?


Because like Mike says regarding Win10, "it's inevitable". Mike has
drank the Kool-Aid. And Mamayaya has nowhere else to go, coming up
rather soon.
Ads
  #62  
Old March 10th 19, 06:24 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
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Posts: 3,318
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/9/19 6:34 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"T" wrote

| You could always use iptables. That is what I use on
| mine and my customer's servers. No GUI though
|

That's a good one. You've managed to not fulfill
both of my minimum Linux requirements with one
program. But of course that's not hard. And
naturally, once I got a version of Linux with a well
designed firewall, where I didn't need console
windows, I'd want software selection and long
term support. The two requirements that still can't
be fulfilled -- firewall and fixing the rough edges --
are just my requirements for minimum functionality
before I'd spend my time actually trying out the
rest of it.

The lack of a usable Linux desktop just keeps going
on, year after year. The fan base keep saying, "It's
great! Try it again. You'll be impressed." But over 2
decades the fan base have never actually listened.
If someone says they don't want to be forced to
command line, the fan base says, "Oh? I like command
line." If someone says, "But there's no software.",
the fan base says, "What? There's Firefox and GIMP
and Libre Office. How much do you need?"

The people using Linux are not using a desktop to
do work. Most are using Linux as servers, for special
purpose scientific uses, as kiosk systems, or they're
geeks who use Linux as a combination hobby, clubhouse
and social circle.

WINE is a good example in microcosm. It's been
going for over 20 years... 20 years!... Yet it's mainly
young geeks who want support for Windows games.
And the whole thing is backward. They're not providing
an API for Windows programmers. They're redirecting
every single function or combination of functions in
a Windows program to the Linux API. One program at
a time and one call at a time. They specifically don't
want to work with Windows programmers. So it's an
endless, one-fix-at-a-time approach. And typical of
Linux, there are virtually no docs. I once downloaded
the pitiful excuse for docs that WINE did have. It was
supposed to be compiled! I had to write a script to
turn the docs into readable files. You couldn't make up
this idiocy.

Why are they so resistant to docs? Because most
of the people writing the software and managing the
system are geeks with minimal English literacy. They
often say that themselves, explaining that they have
no docs because they hate writing docs. But they also
hate making things understandable. They want to be
able to talk in secret code with their friends, with no
one else understanding. In other words, they live in
a world of adolescent geek jargon, used to render their
social circle exclusive.

Problems like that are deep and systemic. Someone
making a sensible, usable firewall would help, but it's
unlikely that anything can ever turn Linux into a user-
friendly tool for any but the most extreme geeks. Which
is a sad, lost opportunity. DotNet was adapted to Linux,
despite having very little relevance there. If Linux people
could just take the trouble to create
crossover docs and tools for Windows programmers,
so that most Windows software could be ported easily,
that would go a long way toward making Linux usable.
But the core problem is that Linux people actually don't
want it to be usable. That would spoil the fun and the
imagined cachet.

On of the nicest things about Windows, to my mind, is
the lack of an emotional, biased fan base. Apple fans are
fiercely loyal suckers who turned Jobs into a guru. Jobs,
in turn, told them what they wanted to hear: That the
whole lemming school of overpaying Apple fans are people
who "think different". It was brilliant marketing. "You
want to do what I tell you to because you're an
independent thinker." Once they've swalllowed that kind
of pretzel logic they're hooked.

Linux fans are equally fanatic in other ways. It's
religious. Windows isn't religion. That's a critical
difference that Linux and Apple fans often miss.
Windows just gets the job done. It's not especially
pretty or quirky. It just works. People don't use it
because they think Gates or Nadella are genius gurus.
They just use it because it works and it's a standard
they can depend on. We don't go into Apple or Linux
groups to tell people they should switch. We couldn't
care less. (And anyway, people in the Linux groups
are too uncivilzed to talk to.



Uhhh. Uncivilized? My kill file is twice the size on Windows
newsgroups than Linux. There are ass holes everywhere, no respecter
of OS's. If you really want uncivilized, check out the C groups.

Currently, I have a crew of folks heping me over on the
Fedora mailing list with a parallel port problem. Not
a single ass hole in sight. Ass holes do like to haunt
newsgroups because they can display anonymous behavior and
get away with it. Dig a hole under someone else and you
feel taller. That is why we have kill files.

Took me a bit to get my C kill file down, but now I only see
the mensches, as I only see mensches on this group.

And I had to add three ass holes into my Linux kill file today.

As far as firewalls go, firewalld is fine for desktops. iptables
is the way to go for servers. If you don't like the management
tools, learn them or go use some other OS.

And you can always try a firewall appliance. They are all
Linux/iptables based anyway and have nicer interfaces. Watchguard
makes excellent firewalls and has American tech support.

I had a YUGE laugh when I asked if there was a GUI for named
and got told "vi". Yes, I know vi (text editor from hell,
but wonderful tool for coding.)

And as far as the desktop being unusable, you haven't looked
lately. I am writing on one right now. 10 times easier
to use than Windows 10 and twice as easy as Windows 7.

Remember that I support Linux, Windows, and Mac. I see
a lot of desktops. (I have yet to meet a Mac user that
know how to actually exit a program. They just leave
everything running.) gnome is weird, but I can still
use it directly. Windows 7 was based on KDE and is
as easy to use as Windows 7

Here is the thing. To use a different technology requires you
to actually learn the technology. You want to use Windows 10,
you have to learn it. If you want to use Linux, you have to
learn it.

One of my big hold ups to Libre Office at my customers is
those Office hold outs that refuse to use anything that
is not 100% identical to Office. Learn? My ass.

Go get yourself some Live USB's of KDE, gnome, Xfce, Mate and
you will see what I mean. Beautiful desktops.

Linux's only draw back now is the lack of application support.

And WINE almost works most of the time. This is Code Weavers
doing. You want it fixed and you have to put them on your parole.
You are a hostage. Fortunately the Wine Staging guys are end running
Code Weavers. The patches and fixes keep rolling in -- finally!

Fedora uses Wine Staging. I run Lotus Smart Suite under Wine.
A few glitches in the rendering, but entirely usable. Wine
Staging fixed all the major problems for me.






  #63  
Old March 10th 19, 11:07 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 173
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/9/2019 10:24 PM, T wrote:


Here is the thing.¬* To use a different technology requires you
to actually learn the technology.¬* You want to use Windows 10,
you have to learn it.¬* If you want to use Linux, you have to
learn it.


The majority of us don't want to LEARN any OS.
We want the RESULT of running the application.
We don't want to have to LEARN the application either.
How many people already have basic knowledge of Windows?
How many people already have basic knowledge of Linux?
The ratio of those two numbers tells the story.
There's little motivation for change.

snip

Linux's only draw back now is the lack of application support.

ONLY??????? ;-(

If I had to boil it down to one, it's complete lack of empathy
(with prejudice) for Windows Refugees. What do you expect when
it says "FOAD WinDroid" on the linux clubhouse door?
  #64  
Old March 10th 19, 11:46 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,318
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/10/19 4:07 AM, Mike wrote:
On 3/9/2019 10:24 PM, T wrote:


Here is the thing.¬* To use a different technology requires you
to actually learn the technology.¬* You want to use Windows 10,
you have to learn it.¬* If you want to use Linux, you have to
learn it.


The majority of us don't want to LEARN any OS.


Hi Mike,

I was speaking to another I.T. person, not to the general public.
Those administering systems need to LEARN them, whatever they are.

And you are right about the general public. They could not
give a hoot is their OS was the Flaming Zucchini OpSys as long
as it ran the programs they want

We want the RESULT of running the application.


Agreed. The computer should be a tool that works for the
human, not the other way around.

We don't want to have to LEARN the application either.


That is the rub. Have you ever written software? I
have/do. 95% of the code is dealing with the interface
to the user. And they could be a lot better done.
Developers are pressures to "just ship it".

How many people already have basic knowledge of Windows?

Twelve?

How many people already have basic knowledge of Linux?

Ten?

Keep in mind that the scrubbers that guess at the installed
base of OS'es miss Linux a lot because it does to spy on
you and the telemetry is not there.

The ratio of those two numbers tells the story.
There's little motivation for change.


The motivation would be when they could run the apps
the want on it. That is Linux's only drawback at
the moment. Linux now has some really nice desktops.


snip

Linux's only draw back now is the lack of application support.

ONLY???????¬* ;-(


Yep. You must be remembering years ago when their
GUI's were nasty. Linux is faster, far more stable,
technologically superior, and very easy to use.

Maybe you should try downloading and trying some of the
Live Spins. They have the desktops already set up so
you can fly before your buy. There are some nice spins too.

If I had to boil it down to one, it's complete lack of empathy
(with prejudice) for Windows Refugees.¬* What do you expect when
it says "FOAD WinDroid" on the linux clubhouse door?


Sorry. Not following.

-T

  #65  
Old March 10th 19, 11:59 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Big Al[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,353
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/10/19 1:24 AM, T wrote:
Go¬*get¬*yourself¬*some¬*Live¬*USB's¬*of¬*KDE,¬*gn ome,¬*Xfce,¬*Mate¬*and
you¬*will¬*see¬*what¬*I¬*mean.¬*¬*Beautiful¬*deskt ops.

And Cinnamon.
  #66  
Old March 10th 19, 02:17 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,355
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

"T" wrote

The majority of us don't want to LEARN any OS.


|
I was speaking to another I.T. person, not to the general public.
Those administering systems need to LEARN them, whatever they are.
|

?? Me? You were speaking to someone who uses
a computer and would consider switching to Linux
if it were a viable option. And I keep pointing out
that it isn't, just in case there might be someone
out there who's listening.

Why isn't it viable? You just demonstrated. I can't
do something as simple as block outgoing software
without learning Linux networking. And that's my fault.

We don't want to have to LEARN the application either.


|
That is the rub. Have you ever written software? I
have/do. 95% of the code is dealing with the interface
to the user. And they could be a lot better done.
Developers are pressures to "just ship it".
|

I don't know what tools you're using. In my experience,
most software now is made with "RAD" tools, and has been
for many years. 95% of the work is writing code and
testing. Making the GUI is a drag-drop operation. Need
a window? Click. You've got a window. Need a button?
Click. You've got a button. Work and imagined time
pressure is never an excuse for not doing the job right.

I'm using a typical Linux product currently. The "Poppler"
package of PDF tools. Fortunately they also make a
Windows version. The tools work pretty well, but
have a few glitches. Command line only. No docs. Only
man pages. Even with those the authors couldn't be
bothered to check them and make sure they're readable.
They're not. I was lucky to find a brief list of command
line options online. So I've written an HTA wrapper to
make the tools usable and fix the glitches. So next time
I want to convert a PDF I can do it with software that's
competent and easy to use.

Time pressure? The last version of Poppler is 6 months
old. No one could find time to write a few paragraphs
of help in 6 months?

Should I be grateful and not look a gift horse in the
mouth? Why? I write code and give it away, without
licensing it as an "open source infection" that can only
be used in OSS. I don't release it until I've written docs.
Simply because that's part of doing the job right.

Last I saw, WINE was being released every 10 days.
That's absurd. It probably leaves them 2-3 days to
actually code between releases. Pressure to get it out
the door? How is that possible when the project is *20+
years old*? It's not pressure to get it out. The whole
thing is just a hobby that they don't want to end.

Now you say the only reason WINE is still half-assed
after 20+ years is because of politics. I don't believe that.
I tried to work with the WINE people. They were completely
unwilling to cooperate with Windows developers and come
up with an API or tools we could use to target Linux. They
said they wanted to support my software but all they really
wanted was Windows bug reporters to give their interns
some practice. And they couldn't be bothered with docs.
The WINE people could have started a Windows API and
docs 20 years ago, so that Windows programmers could
design for WINE. Then gobs of Windows software could
have been running beautifully under WINE years ago. And
we could test/fix our own bugs. But they refuse to take
such a sensible approach. Instead they want to be like
teenage hackers, finding hacks to make Windows software
work, one function at a time.

Probably much of that is due to OSS religion. It's probably
very difficult to get a majority to agree on things. If they
actually tried to help Windows software run on Linux
then they'd be supporting closed source software. People
would freak. Stallman would go to the media. By working
on hacks they don't have to sacrifice their "principles",
thus averting a civil war in Linuxland and maintaining the
adolescent, clubhouse atmosphere that makes Linux
so much "fun".


  #67  
Old March 10th 19, 03:30 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,831
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

In article , Mayayana
wrote:

|
That is the rub. Have you ever written software? I
have/do. 95% of the code is dealing with the interface
to the user. And they could be a lot better done.
Developers are pressures to "just ship it".
|

I don't know what tools you're using. In my experience,
most software now is made with "RAD" tools, and has been
for many years. 95% of the work is writing code and
testing. Making the GUI is a drag-drop operation. Need
a window? Click. You've got a window. Need a button?
Click. You've got a button. Work and imagined time
pressure is never an excuse for not doing the job right.


there's a *lot* more to making a good gui than dropping a couple of
buttons in a window.

creating a good gui is a *significant* amount of work, although nowhere
near 95%.
  #68  
Old March 10th 19, 03:31 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,831
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

In article , wrote:

Remember that I support Linux, Windows, and Mac. I see
a lot of desktops. (I have yet to meet a Mac user that
know how to actually exit a program. They just leave
everything running.)


you obviously haven't met very many mac users. they know how, but often
choose not to because there is no downside to leaving something
running.



One of my big hold ups to Libre Office at my customers is
those Office hold outs that refuse to use anything that
is not 100% identical to Office. Learn? My ass.


the problem is that libre office is not fully compatible with existing
office documents, which makes it difficult or impossible to collaborate
with others who use the real office.
  #69  
Old March 10th 19, 05:41 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Panthera Tigris Altaica
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 85
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 2019-03-09 19:43, Paul wrote:
Panthera Tigris Altaica wrote:

Err... I'd say that there's a problem with the mouse, probably that
particular mouse, not Ubuntu.


Uhhuh.

Let me give you an example.

If you have a mouse with a high DPI behavior, Ubuntu
refuses to scale the DPI down and give the mouse normal
behavior.


I have never had that problem with any mouse or other pointing device in
Ubuntu. Either it works properly the first time or it doesn't work.



We're told to "unplug the mouse and plug it in again".
Upon rediscover, for some reason, the scaling then
works properly.

And this "workaround" has been the answer "forever" :-/


Except around here, where it is not needed.



Wunderbar. Ausgezeichnet.

I have two mice on the Test Machine. A Logitech mouse
(with conventional DPI) and a newer MS Mouse (with high DPI).
I got the MS Mouse, because that's all they had at Staples.

And I'm expected to unplug and plug that MS mouse in
over and over and over and over and... You get the idea.
The connector would have fallen off by now, if I had
followed that advice scrupulously.

Because "we're not fixing it". For some value of
"we're not fixing it".

¬*¬* Paul


  #70  
Old March 10th 19, 06:50 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Andr-o-Mat
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 2019-03-10 1:24 a.m., T wrote:
On 3/9/19 6:34 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"T" wrote

| You could always use iptables.¬* That is what I use on
| mine and my customer's servers.¬* No GUI though
|

¬*¬*¬* That's a good one. You've managed to not fulfill
both of my minimum Linux requirements with one
program. But of course that's not hard. And
naturally, once I got a version of Linux with a well
designed firewall, where I didn't need console
windows, I'd want software selection and long
term support. The two requirements that still can't
be fulfilled -- firewall and fixing the rough edges --
are just my requirements for minimum functionality
before I'd spend my time actually trying out the
rest of it.

¬*¬* The lack of a usable Linux desktop just keeps going
on, year after year. The fan base keep saying, "It's
great! Try it again. You'll be impressed." But over 2
decades the fan base have never actually listened.
If someone says they don't want to be forced to
command line, the fan base says, "Oh? I like command
line." If someone says, "But there's no software.",
the fan base says, "What? There's Firefox and GIMP
and Libre Office. How much do you need?"

¬*¬* The people using Linux are not using a desktop to
do work. Most are using Linux as servers, for special
purpose scientific uses, as kiosk systems, or they're
geeks who use Linux as a combination hobby, clubhouse
and social circle.

¬*¬*¬* WINE is a good example in microcosm. It's been
going for over 20 years... 20 years!... Yet it's mainly
young geeks who want support for Windows games.
And the whole thing is backward. They're not providing
an API for Windows programmers. They're redirecting
every single function or combination of functions in
a Windows program to the Linux API. One program at
a time and one call at a time. They specifically don't
want to work with Windows programmers. So it's an
endless, one-fix-at-a-time approach. And typical of
Linux, there are virtually no docs. I once downloaded
the pitiful excuse for docs that WINE did have. It was
supposed to be compiled! I had to write a script to
turn the docs into readable files. You couldn't make up
this idiocy.

¬*¬*¬*¬* Why are they so resistant to docs? Because most
of the people writing the software and managing the
system are geeks with minimal English literacy. They
often say that themselves, explaining that they have
no docs because they hate writing docs. But they also
hate making things understandable. They want to be
able to talk in secret code with their friends, with no
one else understanding. In other words, they live in
a world of adolescent geek jargon, used to render their
social circle exclusive.

¬*¬*¬* Problems like that are deep and systemic. Someone
making a sensible, usable firewall would help, but it's
unlikely that anything can ever turn Linux into a user-
friendly tool for any but the most extreme geeks. Which
is a sad, lost opportunity. DotNet was adapted to Linux,
despite having very little relevance there. If Linux people
could just take the trouble to create
crossover docs and tools for Windows programmers,
so that most Windows software could be ported easily,
that would go a long way toward making Linux usable.
But the core problem is that Linux people actually don't
want it to be usable. That would spoil the fun and the
imagined cachet.

¬*¬*¬* On of the nicest things about Windows, to my mind, is
the lack of an emotional, biased fan base. Apple fans are
fiercely loyal suckers who turned Jobs into a guru. Jobs,
in turn, told them what they wanted to hear: That the
whole lemming school of overpaying Apple fans are people
who "think different". It was brilliant marketing. "You
want to do what I tell you to because you're an
independent thinker." Once they've swalllowed that kind
of pretzel logic they're hooked.

¬*¬*¬* Linux fans are equally fanatic in other ways. It's
religious. Windows isn't religion. That's a critical
difference that Linux and Apple fans often miss.
Windows just gets the job done. It's not especially
pretty or quirky. It just works. People don't use it
because they think Gates or Nadella are genius gurus.
They just use it because it works and it's a standard
they can depend on. We don't go into Apple or Linux
groups to tell people they should switch. We couldn't
care less. (And anyway, people in the Linux groups
are too uncivilzed to talk to.



Uhhh.¬* Uncivilized?¬* My kill file is twice the size on Windows
newsgroups than Linux.¬* There are ass holes everywhere, no respecter
of OS's.¬* If you really want uncivilized, check out the C groups.

Currently, I have a crew of folks heping me over on the
Fedora mailing list with a parallel port problem.¬* Not
a single ass hole in sight.¬* Ass holes do like to haunt
newsgroups because they can display anonymous behavior and
get away with it.¬* Dig a hole under someone else and you
feel taller.¬* That is why we have kill files.

Took me a bit to get my C kill file down, but now I only see
the mensches, as I only see mensches on this group.

And I had to add three ass holes into my Linux kill file today.

As far as firewalls go, firewalld is fine for desktops.¬* iptables
is the way to go for servers.¬* If you don't like the management
tools, learn them or go use some other OS.

And you can always try a firewall appliance.¬* They are all
Linux/iptables based anyway and have nicer interfaces.¬* Watchguard
makes excellent firewalls and has American tech support.

I had a YUGE laugh when I asked if there was a GUI for named
and got told "vi".¬* Yes, I know vi (text editor from hell,
but wonderful tool for coding.)

And as far as the desktop being unusable, you haven't looked
lately.¬* I am writing on one right now.¬* 10 times easier
to use than Windows 10 and twice as easy as Windows 7.

Remember that I support Linux, Windows, and Mac.¬* I see
a lot of desktops.¬* (I have yet to meet a Mac user that
know how to actually exit a program.¬* They just leave
everything running.)¬* gnome is weird, but I can still
use it directly.¬* Windows 7 was based on KDE and is
as easy to use as Windows 7

Here is the thing.¬* To use a different technology requires you
to actually learn the technology.¬* You want to use Windows 10,
you have to learn it.¬* If you want to use Linux, you have to
learn it.

One of my big hold ups to Libre Office at my customers is
those Office hold outs that refuse to use anything that
is not 100% identical to Office.¬* Learn?¬* My ass.

Go get yourself some Live USB's of KDE, gnome, Xfce, Mate and
you will see what I mean.¬* Beautiful desktops.


Disagreed. KDE is generally butt ugly. There is such a thing as too much
eye candy and KDE is there. MATE and XFCE don't look special but I admit
that I like the way Gnome looks and acts. I guess that's the strength of
Linux though: there's a desktop for everyone.

Linux's only draw back now is the lack of application support.


A lot of the older games will play in Linux through SteamPlay (as long
as it was purchased in Steam) but I notice that applications which
should run easily through Wine just won't. There's no excuse, for
instance, for WordPerfect Office X9 not to work through Wine.

And WINE almost works most of the time.¬* This is Code Weavers
doing.¬* You want it fixed and you have to put them on your parole.
You are a hostage. Fortunately the Wine Staging guys are end running
Code Weavers.¬* The patches and fixes keep rolling in -- finally!

Fedora uses Wine Staging.¬* I run Lotus Smart Suite under Wine.
A few glitches in the rendering, but entirely usable.¬* Wine
Staging fixed all the major problems for me.


Old software always seems to work well in Wine.


--
- "I am a Linux advocate. I am one with Linux, and Linux will guide me."
- "The Linux?"
- "The Linux is what gives an advocate his beard and weight issues."
- "It's an energy field created by all living things."
- "It surrounds us and penetrates us without consent."
- "Remember, an advocate can feel the Linux flowing through him."
  #71  
Old March 10th 19, 06:53 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Andr-o-Mat
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 2019-03-10 7:59 a.m., Big Al wrote:
On 3/10/19 1:24 AM, T wrote:
Go¬*get¬*yourself¬*some¬*Live¬*USB's¬*of¬*KDE,¬*gn ome,¬*Xfce,¬*Mate¬*and
you¬*will¬*see¬*what¬*I¬*mean.¬*¬*Beautiful¬*deskt ops.

And Cinnamon.


Cinnamon is a perfect compromise between functionality and familiarity.

--
- "I am a Linux advocate. I am one with the Linux, and the Linux will
guide me."
- "The Linux?"
- "The Linux is what gives an advocate his beard and weight issues."
- "It's an energy field created by all living things."
- "It surrounds us and penetrates us without consent."
- "Remember, an advocate can feel the Linux flowing through him."
  #72  
Old March 10th 19, 08:10 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 173
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/10/2019 4:46 AM, T wrote:
On 3/10/19 4:07 AM, Mike wrote:
On 3/9/2019 10:24 PM, T wrote:


Here is the thing.¬* To use a different technology requires you
to actually learn the technology.¬* You want to use Windows 10,
you have to learn it.¬* If you want to use Linux, you have to
learn it.


The majority of us don't want to LEARN any OS.


Hi Mike,

I was speaking to another I.T. person, not to the general public.
Those administering systems need to LEARN them, whatever they are.

And you are right about the general public.¬* They could not
give a hoot is their OS was the Flaming Zucchini OpSys as long
as it ran the programs they want

We want the RESULT of running the application.


Agreed.¬* The computer should be a tool that works for the
human, not the other way around.

We don't want to have to LEARN the application either.


That is the rub.¬* Have you ever written software?¬* I
have/do.¬*¬* 95% of the code is dealing with the interface
to the user.¬* And they could be a lot better done.
Developers are pressures to "just ship it".


Software is a communication problem.
When you have a verbal discussion, you might choose words that are
familiar to you and maybe everybody else in your clubhouse.
Problem is that the listener has his own history/experience/bias.
He "hears" what he knows. Your words are merely triggers to
the contents of HIS brain, not yours. I've found a strong
inverse relationship between how smart a person thinks he is to
his ability to communicate/educate others.

A teacher/mentor constantly monitors both sides of the conversation
and adjusts HIS words to lead the student to the intended conclusion.
You can't just shout down his brain. You have to understand where it is
and LEAD it to where you want it to go.

Empathy is very difficult to teach...especially to people who know it all.

Here's a simple example:
If you asked me if you could borrow my cellphone, I'd say that I don't
have one.
Truth is that I probably have one in my pocket.
What I don't have is cell SERVICE.

A simple interpretation is that I LIED.
A thorough analysis would show that I COMMUNICATED.

I used words that communicated that fact that I couldn't help you
with anything that a typical phone user would require.

If I'd said that I didn't have service, we'd be off on a tangent
that would not do either of us any good and you still couldn't
make a call.

If your reaction indicated otherwise, I'd hand you the phone.

So, what did that have to do with software?
If the student is a windows user, it's YOUR responsibility to
lead his mind from where it's been to where you want it to go.
You can't speak geek. You can't berate him for being stupid.
You gotta speak windows.
Desktop linux has FAILED at that task. Without strong
leadership, it will always FAIL at that task.

If you're looking for a hobby, desktop linux is as good as any.
And you might just dump windows altogether. I'm betting most won't.


How many people already have basic knowledge of Windows?

Twelve?

How many people already have basic knowledge of Linux?

Ten?

I think your ratio is way off.
Take two average joes to best buy.
Tell one to buy a computer.
Tell the other to buy a linux based desktop computing platform.
The first guy will be in the checkout line before the second
one finds anybody who can help him in the least.

Experiment two:
Give two people computers new in the box and internet connections.
Lock 'em in separate rooms.
Tell 'em to write a short memo, attach a picture and email it to you
and you'll come open the door.
Tell person two that he will have to use linux to do it.
Leave and wait for the emails. Don't forget to notify next
of kin and call hazmat for the second guy.

Keep in mind that the scrubbers that guess at the installed
base of OS'es miss Linux a lot because it does to spy on
you and the telemetry is not there.


I can't dispute that. Try this metric.
Stand up at the PTA meeting and say,
"raise your hand if you can help me with some issues in
open office in ubuntu." Or, "I have a half-price computer that only
works with mint. Who wants it?
There's your ratio.


The ratio of those two numbers tells the story.
There's little motivation for change.


The motivation would be when they could run the apps
the want on it.¬* That is Linux's only drawback at
the moment.¬* Linux now has some really nice desktops.


That's not motivation.
You're sitting at the rest stop. You are half way to
your kid's wedding. You're on schedule and life is great.

Somebody drives up and offers to trade vehicles.
His has the steering wheel on the wrong side. There's a bunch
of stuff in the trunk. Nobody knows what it is. It won't
go on the interstate, but HE is convinced that HE could find a back
road to get you there. But he thinks it's really shiny in places.
How motivated will you be?


snip

Linux's only draw back now is the lack of application support.

ONLY???????¬* ;-(


Yep.¬* You must be remembering years ago when their
GUI's were nasty.¬* Linux is faster, far more stable,
technologically superior,


Technical superiority is overrated.
I spent several hours yesterday in my friends beat up
Ford on the way to a swapmeet.
We would have taken his BMW, but it wasn't running...again!
Gets a lot better gas mileage and way more fun to drive.
Technically superior. But he can't fix it. His local
BMW whisperer can't fix it. If he takes it to the dealer,
it'll cost a fortune to fix and be broke again next month.

and very easy to use.

That's BS. If you plug in the live DVD and click icons on the screen,
it's very easy to use. If you ever need to look behind the curtain,
you're screwed. A windows user doing stuff in desktop linux isn't too
bad the SECOND
time you do it, but that first time is a bitch.
Doesn't take very many of those to send you back to the windows that
you know and hate.

Maybe you should try downloading and trying some of the
Live Spins.


I like mint.
A few versions back, I liked Zorin. But every version
takes it further back into the chaos that is desktop linux.

They have the desktops already set up so
you can fly before your buy.

That's a myth.
I've tried distros that worked great off the DVD, but when installed,
it boots to a blank screen. Or what about when the DVD works the lan
but when installed, you need to connect to the internet to install
the proper lan driver to connect to the internet.
I'm sure a guru could figger out how to fix it,
but it's not worth the effort. Desktop linux is like an onion. Fix one
thing and there's another just below the surface. And it changes every
distro/release/wet dream that the developers are experiencing.

Distro A does five of the seven things on your must have list.
Distro B does five of the seven things on your list of must haves,
just different five.
You can add the fixes to either, but it takes a different process
for each. And the default tools are different. You have to install
the stuff that lets you install stuff so you can learn new tools
to get most of what you want.

To be fair, windows is going down the same road to chaos. Maybe it will
eventually be so bad that desktop linux looks good...but don't count on it.
There are some nice spins too.

If I had to boil it down to one, it's complete lack of empathy
(with prejudice) for Windows Refugees.¬* What do you expect when
it says "FOAD WinDroid" on the linux clubhouse door?


Sorry. Not following.

Carrots work better than sticks if you expect windows people
to convert to desktop linux.

-T


  #73  
Old March 10th 19, 08:26 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 173
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/10/2019 8:30 AM, nospam wrote:
In article , Mayayana
wrote:

|
That is the rub. Have you ever written software? I
have/do. 95% of the code is dealing with the interface
to the user. And they could be a lot better done.
Developers are pressures to "just ship it".


The best run test instrument project I ever saw started
by writing the manual. They started with WHAT users wanted to do.
They decided HOW users would do that. They wrote the manual telling
them how to use the instrument. The manual was complete, except for
the bad grammar of the engineers.
This was done in parallel with hardware and software feasibility studies
and discussions with users.

When they were done, they designed/built what they had documented.
The project went smoothly and was a success with users. No nasty
surprises in the project. No protracted delays/rethink/redesigns.

That manual took months. Management was livid, but it worked out very
well. Even so, I don't think anybody else tried that again. Livid
management is a strong motivator.
|

I don't know what tools you're using. In my experience,
most software now is made with "RAD" tools, and has been
for many years. 95% of the work is writing code and
testing. Making the GUI is a drag-drop operation. Need
a window? Click. You've got a window. Need a button?
Click. You've got a button. Work and imagined time
pressure is never an excuse for not doing the job right.


there's a *lot* more to making a good gui than dropping a couple of
buttons in a window.

creating a good gui is a *significant* amount of work, although nowhere
near 95%.


Yep, but I'd still like to hear about a free linux GUI development tool.
With visual basic 6, you grab an icon, place it on the window.
You have a box full of configurations you can do to that icon.
It had EVERYTHING you could ever do to THAT icon...nothing more
nothing less.
When I tried that with C, I had to know everything and type it in
CORRECTLY. Editing it was a bitch.
Gambas looked promising, but never quite made it.

Yes, I know VB6 ain't free, but the incremental cost of using it is zero
if you already have it. And that's the crux of the difficulty migrating
windows users to desktop linux.


  #74  
Old March 10th 19, 09:32 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,355
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

"Mike" wrote

| The best run test instrument project I ever saw
| started by writing the manual. They started
| with WHAT users wanted to do.
|

I think the smoothest piece of software I've written
is something I made for a friend, repeatedly going
back to watch her use it and see what she expected
it to do. That kind of feedback is a luxury. But it's
also important, for me at least, to actually be interested
in the functionality. The best software is the software
that the author needs themselves.
I think that with a lot of the geek products the
inspiration is not so much to make good software
but rather to perfect the algorythms. What should
be 2nd-stage polish is, instead, the only part
they're interested in working on.


| Yep, but I'd still like to hear about a free linux GUI development tool.
| With visual basic 6, you grab an icon, place it on the window.
| You have a box full of configurations you can do to that icon.
| It had EVERYTHING you could ever do to THAT icon...nothing more
| nothing less.
| When I tried that with C, I had to know everything and type it in
| CORRECTLY. Editing it was a bitch.
| Gambas looked promising, but never quite made it.
|
| Yes, I know VB6 ain't free, but the incremental cost of using it is zero
| if you already have it. And that's the crux of the difficulty migrating
| windows users to desktop linux.
|

Indeed. I'm still using VB6 and love it. That would
be painful to give up. And it's still as relevant as ever,
with support built into Win10.

I tried Gambas once. As near as I could tell it was
little more than a monument of resentment. The
author just wanted to tell VBers how bad VB is and
to condescend to us. I don't remember much about
the docs, but I do remember the author repeatedly
writing that his aim was to show us how to code
right. And the logo (a cartoon lobster?) was right out
of Fischer-Price.



  #75  
Old March 11th 19, 07:20 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 173
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/10/2019 2:32 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"Mike" wrote

| The best run test instrument project I ever saw
| started by writing the manual. They started
| with WHAT users wanted to do.
|

I think the smoothest piece of software I've written
is something I made for a friend, repeatedly going
back to watch her use it and see what she expected
it to do.


That's excellent. But you can't do that in many instances.
A general product can take some time to grind through
the bureaucratic process of a major corporation.
If you disclose early to customers, your competition can
beat you to the punch.
You have to predict trends, empathize with your customer,
define features/benefits and ask questions that verify
your assumptions without giving away the store.
Ability to do that is rare.

That process applies to open source. The designer has
to get something for his efforts. Even if it's just street
cred, there's motivation to be recognized.

That kind of feedback is a luxury. But it's
also important, for me at least, to actually be interested
in the functionality. The best software is the software
that the author needs themselves.
I think that with a lot of the geek products the
inspiration is not so much to make good software
but rather to perfect the algorythms. What should
be 2nd-stage polish is, instead, the only part
they're interested in working on.


That's a two-edged sword.
Current apps do 99% of what you need and are 102% what
you never use.
So you write your own program to do what you need.
It's a world class program doing that.
You're done.
Unless it's linux.
Then you establish a competing branch to the tree.

If we're lucky you don't fork a distro that features your contribution.

Problem is that nobody wants it because you didn't include
the features that post to instagram and email you when
your dog needs to go out and book your next vacation.

So, some other geek adds all that and forks your program again.
But he has a different UI bias.
And no interest in thoroughly evaluating compatibility.

So some other geek adds....

After 20 years of that, you have...well...you have desktop linux.
 




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