If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Rate Thread | Display Modes |
#61
|
|||
|
|||
Explaining the file system hierarchy.
On 3/2/18 3:33 PM, Paul wrote:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't grasp the concept of folders within folders. A tree structure might be just as effective a teaching tool. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_structure The articles just shows that what makes sense to one person or group makes absolutely no sense to another person or group. Take the graphic of the hierarchy that contains groups of windows. To me, that display is useless, especially to new users. Took me awhile to figure that one out. Finding your files is like "going down a mine". That extra bold line you can have in Directory Opus excellently makes that point obvious., IMO. My brother-in-law really liked that line when I got him trying out DO. Made it so simple to understand where the files were being taken from and moved to. It also makes it possible to give a justification for behaviors when "moving" a file versus "copying" a file. If you have two inverted trees in your diagram, it's pretty hard to get the file from one tree to another without copying it. Whereas you can imagine moving a file up and down within a single inverted tree. The purpose of the desktop metaphor was to answer the question "what is this big space on the CRT screen for". And to answer that, the first GUI people said it "was the top surface of your desk". Which it really isn't. But you have to make this stuff up, as part of the "story". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_metaphor "The desktop metaphor was first introduced by Alan Kay at Xerox PARC in 1970" I think at least some desktops offered more convincing representations. (There have been attempts to animate everything, but such attempts are doomed to fail from a productivity perspective.) I'm sure if someone was teaching you how to use an IBM mainframe, the lesson wouldn't have worked this way. You would be going "what is this 191 and 192 stuff and why do I want to SWAP A B ?". Thankfully the explanations now should be a bit milder and easier to take. IPL CMS, Paul -- Ken Mac OS X 10.11.6 Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit) Thunderbird 52.0 "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!" |
Ads |
#62
|
|||
|
|||
Explaining the file system hierarchy.
On 3/2/18 4:37 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Paul writes: J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: snip I think at least some desktops offered more convincing representations. (There have been attempts to animate everything, but such attempts are doomed to fail from a productivity perspective.) I remember one - I think it was Packard Bell - who presented a view of a hallway, with rooms opening off it. We don't want to forget MS's Bob! LOL snip -- Ken Mac OS X 10.11.6 Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit) Thunderbird 52.0 "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!" |
#63
|
|||
|
|||
Positioning the Windows Explorer windows
On 3/2/18 9:38 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 22:54:54 -0500, "Bob_S" wrote: "Ken Springer" wrote in message news On 3/1/18 8:08 PM, Bob_S wrote: "Mayayana" wrote in message news "Bob_S" wrote | Right-click on Explorer icon, select Properties and enter what you want in | the Target window. | What he wants is 2 Explorer windows, for two different folders, opening next to each other, one on the left and one on the right. If you can choose position in shortcut properties it's news to me. That’s what I get for working on two systems and reading a newsgroup at the same time.... ROFL Ken, See if "Total Commander" doesn't get you closer to what you want to do. The SourceForge site is down right now but here's the authors page https://www.ghisler.com/ Total Commander is a good choice. I used it for a while and liked it a lot. But even better, as far as I'm concerned, is Directory Opus (https://www.gpsoft.com.au/), which is what I now use. Unfortunately it's not free, but it's worth the cost ($89 AUD) to me. I've looked at a lot of the options out there, and agree about DO. But for my immediate purpose, it's overkill. There is one place where I think the old File Manager from Windows For Workgroups excels. There is a bar above the panes that has an icon for each individual drive/partition. That makes it easier to explain drives and especially partitions. In fact, for very basic instructions for newbies, you can ignore the partition idea anyway. It would just go over their heads. A couple of the alternative file managers have those icons, but I don't remember seeing any connecting lines in the panes. And, they were overly complex for my goal/need in looking for something else. Sometimes, the simple answer is the best, and at time we tend to ignore simplicity. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.11.6 Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit) Thunderbird 52.0 "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!" |
#64
|
|||
|
|||
Positioning the Windows Explorer windows
On 3/2/18 9:31 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 12:08:33 -0700, Ken Springer wrote: You have pretty much mirrored my frustration with the lack of any documentation being included with computers. It's no wonder people have so little clue as to how to use a computer. Although I somewhat share your frustration, at least in part, let me make several comments disagreeing with you: 1. It costs considerably more to print documentation that it does to create a Windows DVD. So the lack of documentation keeps the cost down. I see. So... It's all about the money, and nothing about the investment in education for the future. This reminds me of a retired individual I had working for me as a volunteer at a government management unit. At the time, he was about the same age as you are now. One day he was bitching his head off about having to pay taxes for public education. He had his education, and didn't want to be paying for someone else's. Of course, he'd forgotten that someone else had paid for his... The conversation ended, when I pointed out to him, that someday one of those kids he didn't want to pay for and educate, might be trying to make change for him at the store. End of conversation. :-) 2. The lack of documentation *may* (see below) be an issue for some people, but not for most of us with Windows experience. So as far as I'm concerned, keeping the cost down by not having documentation is good, not bad. So, are you saying it's all about experienced users? Is the new user supposed to go suck wind? That's actually a similar attitude to the one you expressed above. This is one of the reasons most people I meet hate Windows 10. They have no help using the new UI, and didn't have any help using previous UIs either. Not all at much different than when MS introduced 8.x. I maintain that, had they provided documentation about the new Start Screen and how to use it, it would not have been the abject failure it turned out to be. 3. Most people never look at whatever documentation they get with their computers, cars, TV sets, or anything else. They put it away somewhere, and usually can't remember where. Or maybe they throw it away. They don't even look at it when it's a one or two page flyer that came with the computer. "You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink." Is that what your saying? What if you take a herd of horses to water, and only a few take a drink? What you are saying is, "Lets punish the horses that will take a drink by not taking any of the horses to water." Let's punish the user who will read the documentation by not giving him documentation because most will not read it. Correct? As a single example, look at how many people who get a one or two page flyer with their computer telling them about the recovery partition that comes with it instead of a DVD, and tells them they should copy it to a DVD and how to do it, and not only don't do it, but never realize that they could or should. You do know the old joke about the word "assume", do you not? It makes an "Ass" of "U" and "Me". You just assumed that *all* users know how to do this. I have a friend who actually followed these onscreen instructions. But still screwed up. Know what he did? He labeled the discs on the recorded side of the disc. Ruined them. There was no instructions about that. :-) And because most people never look at their documentation, that's another reason why keeping the cost down by not having documentation is good, not bad. So, you would punish the user, by not providing documentation, who might grow up and be the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs? Attitudes like this, cheap, is why teachers now buy school supplies because citizens are too cheap to invest in the future. And, so many of the products we buy are crap. In general, we buy based on how cheap something is, not the quality of the product. As President McKinley said, "Cheap prices make for cheap goods; cheap goods make for cheap men; and cheap men make for a cheap country.” 4. In my experience, back in the days when documentation used to be much more common with computers and software packages, it was typically somewhere between mediocre and very poor. If you wanted good documentation, you bought a third-party book. I see... So, because it was between mediocre and poor, that's a good justification for not providing any documentation? What about the idea of improving the documentation? 5. Those third-party books are still available. And since they are almost always better than what used to come with the computer or software, and probably cost less than the addition to the price that would exist if they were included with it, that's what people should get. So, where do you go to see a book and make a judgement on the contents? Borders is gone. I think Dalton's is too. I see one answer now. Read it on the computer or a tablet. But that's my point... You can't do that if you don't know how!! And you won't know how until you have something to read. Assuming the user has actually learned how to read. 6. Very few people buy those third-party books. They don't because they don't want to take the time and trouble to read them any more than they used to when they were included with the software packages. Or in some cases because they can't afford them. Yea, more "lets penalize everyone" because most do not take advantage of the opportunity. Hell, it's been that way a multitude of industries. We need to be increasing the options of education, not diminishing them. I don't buy the books anymore. Why? Because I found them all to be wanting in one area or another. Fitting into your description of mediocre to poor. Not to mention, the nearest bookstores are 40-60 miles away, in an area of a quarter-million people. I was lucky, I didn't start out with Windows. My first windowing computer was an Atari 1040ST. That manual DID tell you how to drag and drop, and everything else. So when I was exposed to Windows, those things I already knew how to do. I didn't start out with Windows either. I started out with mainframe computers (in 1962). When I started with PCs (in 1987), it was with on an IBM clone running DOS (3.0). I started with Windows a few years later (Windows 2.0, running under DOS), but didn't use it much. It was just a way to learn something new (and something that I correctly anticipated would take over) and get familiar with it. Did you have documentation with that mainframe to refer to when needed? Presuming you went to college to get an education about computers, did you have books there? I've run almost every version of Windows from 3.0 to 10 since then. I learned it from my early experience with 2.0, from reading books about it, from my son, who started with PCs before I did, from other friends with more Windows experience that I had, from attending meetings of the local PC Users Group, from my own trial, error, and research, and from newsgroups. I know, and you *are* very knowledgeable, which is why I read your posts. But you always take the perspective of someone with experience. I take the perspective of those without the experience, and it's these people from whom new leaders, scientists, and ???? will come from. Also having skipped almost no versions of Windows except for Me, going from one version to the next was seldom a big jump for me. It's a much bigger jump for those who stick for too long with an old obsolescent version before moving to a new one, since they have to take in a lot more changes at once. Many, if not most, people who don't like Windows 10 fall into that category, and that's largely the reason most people don't like it. I actually liked the UI of Me, although I never owned a computer with it installed. Technically, my first MS OS ownership was DOS 3.11. But, I installed an add-on board in my 1040ST that had an 8086 processor and 8087 math chip. Had a similar thing on my Atari TT030, a cartridge that ran Apple's System 6. My first MS computer was Windows 98. Then to XP, and every one since. My first Apple ownership was my mothers OS 10.2 Jaguar. Then bought an iMac with 10.5 Leopard. It's now upgraded to 10.11, El Capitan. Skipped Lion and Mavericks. I now use the system that fits my needs for whatever. But overall, I use the Mac. It just chugs along with almost no system updates, whereas there are security updates left and right for my windows computers that are still supported. I won't use W10 either, not because I think it's crappy, or similar. I actually think it's pretty good. I think the new Start Menu is a huge improvement over the past, but if you don't know how to use it, it's just as worthless as the predecessors. But again, constant updating, they can't leave the UI alone, and most of all, those things many call "spying". When you buy a system off the shelf, you should be allowed to opt in for those features. And when presented with them, there needs to be a truly adequate explanation. And, there isn't. I just did a fresh W10 install using the Media Creation Tool. The Cortana explanation got me curious, so I clicked the "Learn more" button. That brought up15-20 lines of info. But it made mention of MS's Cortana website, and there's so much more info on what MS does you don't know about. I'll bet it takes 4 pages of paper to print. A friend of mine recently made a very cogent comment... "Ignorance is a choice." After he said that, I lost all sympathy for people having computer issues. They can go out and find the answers, or live with the problem. Ignorance is only partly a choice. Many people don't know they can go out and find the answers, or don't even know that they can do that. Ignorance is *always* a choice. In your example, they choose NOT to find out where they can get the answers. And many people don't have the time to do it; it's usually a lot quicker to ask a question and be told the answer than it is to search for it, whether in books, on the web, or anywhere else. This assumes you know where to ask the questions. Everyone has the same number of hours in a day. It's how you choose to spend them. I have lots of sympathy for people with computer problems. That's why I help many friend and relatives with their computer problems, and it's also the reason I'm here in this newsgroup and others, and also in the Microsoft Windows forums--to help when I can. I have been severely disappointed in the MS forums. Too many threads get an answer from someone who is supposed to be knowledgeable via MS, and when the poster says "It didn't work", that person never replies. Usually, but not always, I find the answer somewhere on the web. But it's rarely an answer from MS. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.11.6 Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit) Thunderbird 52.0 "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!" |
#65
|
|||
|
|||
Explaining the file system hierarchy.
On 3/4/2018 1:37 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 3/2/18 8:42 AM, Ken Blake wrote: On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 12:34:34 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote: Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't grasp the concept of folders within folders. Have you tried asking him to visualize a filing cabinet containing folders, and several folders in each of them? Perhaps even better than visualizing it is demonstrating it in an actual filing cabinet, if you have one handy. I used to use the "folder in a folder" metaphor too, but this will break down when the student suddenly realizes you can't physically fit any more folders inside the one folder. Maybe better is this: You need a bunch of folders with the tabs staggered across the top.* One level is a folder with the tab on the left end.* The next level down is a physical folder with the tab one step to the right.* Next level down are folders with the tabs one more step to the right.* :-) How about a building analogy? The hard drive starts out as a large empty building, rooms are partitioned off, cabinets are added, boxes are put in the cabinets, stuff is put in the boxes. Heck, that analogy could also be useful in explaining defragging. -- == Later... Ron C == |
#66
|
|||
|
|||
Positioning the Windows Explorer windows
On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote: On 3/2/18 9:31 AM, Ken Blake wrote: On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 12:08:33 -0700, Ken Springer wrote: You have pretty much mirrored my frustration with the lack of any documentation being included with computers. It's no wonder people have so little clue as to how to use a computer. Although I somewhat share your frustration, at least in part, let me make several comments disagreeing with you: 1. It costs considerably more to print documentation that it does to create a Windows DVD. So the lack of documentation keeps the cost down. I see. So... It's all about the money, and nothing about the investment in education for the future. Yes. Whether that's good or bad is not my point. If a manufacturer can keep the cost down and sell more of the product, he makes more money. And my point is simply that that's why he does it. 2. The lack of documentation *may* (see below) be an issue for some people, but not for most of us with Windows experience. So as far as I'm concerned, keeping the cost down by not having documentation is good, not bad. So, are you saying it's all about experienced users? Is the new user supposed to go suck wind? No, that's not my point at all. I was simply explaining why the manufacturer's keeping the cost down is good for me and for other experienced users. That's why I said "as far as I'm concerned." And for less experienced users, see point 4. This is one of the reasons most people I meet hate Windows 10. They have no help using the new UI, and didn't have any help using previous UIs either. Not all at much different than when MS introduced 8.x. I maintain that, had they provided documentation about the new Start Screen and how to use it, it would not have been the abject failure it turned out to be. I agree, at least in part, and even more for 8.x than for 10. A printed manual wasn't necessary, but a small pamphlet explaining the basics of how to use it should have been included. But as far as I'm concerned, the main thing they should have done was made that new UI optional. There should have been a choice between it and the Windows 7 UI. Let those who know the Windows 7 UI stick with it. Let those who like the new UI, or those who are adventurous and want to learn it move to it. 3. Most people never look at whatever documentation they get with their computers, cars, TV sets, or anything else. They put it away somewhere, and usually can't remember where. Or maybe they throw it away. They don't even look at it when it's a one or two page flyer that came with the computer. "You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink." Is that what your saying? What if you take a herd of horses to water, and only a few take a drink? What you are saying is, "Lets punish the horses that will take a drink by not taking any of the horses to water." No, I'm not saying like that at all. I don't want to punish anyone for anything. I'm simply explaining why providing documentation isn't much help to the great majority of users. You do know the old joke about the word "assume", do you not? It makes an "Ass" of "U" and "Me". An old joke that I hate. Assumptions are necessary for everything we do in life. If I walk across the street on a green light, I assume the car coming doesn't the street won't run the red light. There are good assumptions and bad ones. Avoiding them all is impossible. You just assumed that *all* users know how to do this. Of course I didn't. But if you buy a product that's new to you and don't take the trouble to find out to properly use it, you run the risk of screwing things up--sometimes of killing yourself, for example with a power saw. 4. In my experience, back in the days when documentation used to be much more common with computers and software packages, it was typically somewhere between mediocre and very poor. If you wanted good documentation, you bought a third-party book. I see... So, because it was between mediocre and poor, that's a good justification for not providing any documentation? I am *not* trying to justify that, or anything else. I am trying to explain why things are as they are, at least in part. What about the idea of improving the documentation? An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I think it highly unlikely that it will. 5. Those third-party books are still available. And since they are almost always better than what used to come with the computer or software, and probably cost less than the addition to the price that would exist if they were included with it, that's what people should get. So, where do you go to see a book and make a judgement on the contents? Borders is gone. I think Dalton's is too. There are many reviews available on the Internet. I've written a few of them myself. 6. Very few people buy those third-party books. They don't because they don't want to take the time and trouble to read them any more than they used to when they were included with the software packages. Or in some cases because they can't afford them. Yea, more "lets penalize everyone" because most do not take advantage of the opportunity. You keep interpreting everything I say as "let's" do this or that. Once again, I was not suggesting that anyone do anything. I was trying to explain why things are as they are. I was lucky, I didn't start out with Windows. My first windowing computer was an Atari 1040ST. That manual DID tell you how to drag and drop, and everything else. So when I was exposed to Windows, those things I already knew how to do. I didn't start out with Windows either. I started out with mainframe computers (in 1962). When I started with PCs (in 1987), it was with on an IBM clone running DOS (3.0). I started with Windows a few years later (Windows 2.0, running under DOS), but didn't use it much. It was just a way to learn something new (and something that I correctly anticipated would take over) and get familiar with it. Did you have documentation with that mainframe to refer to when needed? Yes. Everybody did. Mainframes are completely different from personal computers. Besides being more more complex, they are much more expensive, so the manufacturers have no trouble with the costs of printing. And also note that a programmers working on a mainframe has been educated in its use. He is very different from a home user. Presuming you went to college to get an education about computers, did you have books there? I did not. I graduated from college (1959) well before colleges had computer classes. I've run almost every version of Windows from 3.0 to 10 since then. I learned it from my early experience with 2.0, from reading books about it, from my son, who started with PCs before I did, from other friends with more Windows experience that I had, from attending meetings of the local PC Users Group, from my own trial, error, and research, and from newsgroups. I know, and you *are* very knowledgeable, which is why I read your posts. Thank you. I appreciate that. My point is that I made an effort to learn what I know. The person who is not willing to make an effort is not going to know very much, regardless of what documentation comes with his computer, TV set, car, or anything else. I now use the system that fits my needs for whatever. But overall, I use the Mac. It just chugs along with almost no system updates, whereas there are security updates left and right for my windows computers that are still supported. I've never used and know next to nothing about the Macintosh. I have no interest in it. It may be great, it may even be better than Windows; I don't know and don't care, and I'll stick with what I know. I have neither the inclination nor the time to learn something new (and I feel the same way about Linux). I won't use W10 either, not because I think it's crappy, or similar. I actually think it's pretty good. I think the new Start Menu is a huge improvement over the past, but if you don't know how to use it, it's just as worthless as the predecessors. But again, constant updating, Yes, and I agree with you that that's bad, not good. If it were written better, it would need much less updating. Microsoft does many things well and many other things poorly. The need for so many upgrades falls into the latter category they can't leave the UI alone, I agree again. Another thing they do poorly. It's OK to make some changes, if they are clearly improvements, not just different things. And changes should be made gradually, not dramatically all at once. It's hard enough to learn one new thing; nobody should have to learn many at the same time. and most of all, those things many call "spying". When you buy a system off the shelf, you should be allowed to opt in for those features. And when presented with them, there needs to be a truly adequate explanation. And, there isn't. Another agreement from me. And not just as regards "spying"; there are many places where they should provide choices and don't. Or if the choice is there, it's buried so deeply that it's hard to find. A friend of mine recently made a very cogent comment... "Ignorance is a choice." After he said that, I lost all sympathy for people having computer issues. They can go out and find the answers, or live with the problem. Ignorance is only partly a choice. Many people don't know they can go out and find the answers, or don't even know that they can do that. Ignorance is *always* a choice. In your example, they choose NOT to find out where they can get the answers. No. They don't choose not to find out. They don't know they can, or don't know how. And many people don't have the time to do it; it's usually a lot quicker to ask a question and be told the answer than it is to search for it, whether in books, on the web, or anywhere else. This assumes you know where to ask the questions. Yes. My point exactly. Read my previous point. Everyone has the same number of hours in a day. It's how you choose to spend them. No, we don't all have the same number of hours. Yes, there are 24 hours for all of us, but someone like me who is retired has many more available hours than someone who is working. I have lots of sympathy for people with computer problems. That's why I help many friend and relatives with their computer problems, and it's also the reason I'm here in this newsgroup and others, and also in the Microsoft Windows forums--to help when I can. I have been severely disappointed in the MS forums. As am I. I think they are terrible. I don't want to take the time to go into details about why, but there are many thing about them that are very badly done. Nevertheless, I participate because, bad as they are, I am able to help a lot of people there. Too many threads get an answer from someone who is supposed to be knowledgeable via MS, and when the poster says "It didn't work", that person never replies. One of the many things that are bad about them is that they are not like newsreaders, where you can see all the messages in a thread including your own and any replies to it without clicking on any message. And if you've replied to a message, when you later see another message in the thread, you can't tell that it's one you've replied to. When they first started with this, messages could be accessed either via a browser on the web or via a newsreader. The web might be better for people asking questions (most of whom probably don't even know what a newsreader is), but as far as I'm concerned it's much worse for those of us who are trying to help. Microsoft made a bad choice when they opted only to satisfy those asking questions by turning off the newsgroup mirror of the forums, and in the long run it hurts those asking questions too. Usually, but not always, I find the answer somewhere on the web. But it's rarely an answer from MS. If by an answer from MS, you mean on the forums, I *strongly* agree with you. Those people are mostly contractors, not actual employees, are mostly in India, writing in poor English, and they often completely misunderstand the question. Even if they understand the question, they often provide wrong answers. They are mostly terrible. But fortunately there are also a lot of helpful knowledgeable people on the forums, including many MVPs. As far as I'm concerned, it would be a major improvement if Microsoft would dump all those contractors, and rely on those of us who are helpful. And it would save them money. |
#67
|
|||
|
|||
Explaining the file system hierarchy.
In message , Ken Springer
writes: Sorry for the late replies to everyone. I use Albasani.net, and they've been down for like 3 days. Had withdrawal symptoms! LOL I would too (-: On 3/2/18 5:34 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: In message , Ken Springer writes: [] Explaining things like this can be hard when the user is fixated on doing a, b, c, d and has no interest in learning something else. The Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't grasp the concept of folders within folders. He's more than once asked me to go through downloading from his camera card - and he writes down each stage/step. He just doesn't grasp the _concept_. Exactly, grasping the concept is hard, and, IMO, none of the MS file managers windows adequately as they don't display the very top level correctly. That's why I created my own charts to show the very basic hierarchy of the filesystem. I've done one for both Windows and Mac, and would like to do one for Linux someday. You can see the charts he https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1lrrman43ubk5m6/AAA-p4e6O7vkDo5akEaOcINFa?dl=0 For any reader that looks at the charts, feel free to download for your own personal use. The goal was to make it as simple and self explanatory as possible, and still be able to print on letter sized paper. I'd appreciate comments and improvement suggestions if anyone has any. Thanks. There are obviously lots of concepts we have difficulty in conveying; your charts are (perhaps) good at conveying the top level, which you say is what you were trying to convey. My problem - I think! - is conveying the concept of files and folders within folders, especially the concept that *each level is the same*. [] -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf Look out for #1. Don't step in #2 either. |
#68
|
|||
|
|||
Explaining the file system hierarchy.
In message , Ron C
writes: [] How about a building analogy? The hard drive starts out as a large empty building, rooms are partitioned off, cabinets are added, boxes are put in the cabinets, stuff is put in the boxes. Heck, that analogy could also be useful in explaining defragging. But that encourages the thought that each level is _different_ to the one above. Which I fear a lot of newbies think anyway. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf Look out for #1. Don't step in #2 either. |
#69
|
|||
|
|||
Explaining the file system hierarchy.
On 3/5/2018 5:22 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Ron C writes: [] How about a building analogy? The hard drive starts out as a large empty building, rooms are partitioned off, cabinets are added, boxes are put in the cabinets, stuff is put in the boxes. Heck, that analogy could also be useful in explaining defragging. But that encourages the thought that each level is _different_ to the one above. Which I fear a lot of newbies think anyway. Label your rooms properly/logically and what goes in that room should follow. You don't put your car in the bathroom .. etc. Then too, my "logical" hierarchy may seem totally illogical to you. [YMMV] -- == Later... Ron C == |
#70
|
|||
|
|||
Positioning the Windows Explorer windows
On Mon, 05 Mar 2018 12:10:23 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote: On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer wrote: What about the idea of improving the documentation? An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I think it highly unlikely that it will. What about the idea of a video, or a series of short videos, that offers to launch when the computer is new and can be accessed on demand later? Instead of text-based Help, it would be video-based and possibly interactive. For all I know, Cortana can already do that now. Call it Welcome! or New Feature Tour or Get To Know Windows. Printed documentation is expensive in multiple ways and large text files will be too daunting for many users to delve into, but these days with Youtube on every device almost everyone knows how to watch a video. Possible topics: Launch a program, resize its window, move the window to another part of the screen, cut/paste some text, copy/paste other text, add/delete text, close the program. Bonus topic: open two programs at once to show that it's possible. Launch Windows Explorer (we're in the Win 7 group) or File Explorer. Demonstrate how to navigate, illustrate the differences between a folder and a file, how to search, rename, delete, and use the Recycle Bin. Advanced topics - installing more programs, basic (very basic) networking, Internet access, how and where to download something, what is email, etc. Data backups - who should do it and who needn't bother. There could be a TOC or Index that loads in a browser, then you'd pick the topic you want to see from there. People can't be bothered to read these days, but they'll usually pause to watch a video if it's short enough. Add a very small dose of humor or Easter Eggs to generate discussion and participation. Too much will kill the experience. That's just off the top of my head, so the whole idea is probably full of holes. -- Char Jackson |
#71
|
|||
|
|||
Positioning the Windows Explorer windows
In message , Char Jackson
writes: On Mon, 05 Mar 2018 12:10:23 -0700, Ken Blake wrote: On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer wrote: What about the idea of improving the documentation? An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I think it highly unlikely that it will. What about the idea of a video, or a series of short videos, that offers to launch when the computer is new and can be accessed on demand later? Instead of text-based Help, it would be video-based and possibly interactive. For all I know, Cortana can already do that now. Call it Welcome! or New Feature Tour or Get To Know Windows. Printed documentation is expensive in multiple ways and large text files will be too daunting for many users to delve into, but these days with Youtube on every device almost everyone knows how to watch a video. Possible topics: Launch a program, resize its window, move the window to another part of the screen, cut/paste some text, copy/paste other text, add/delete text, Those are really excellent ideas. (There probably _are_ such videos on YouTube [everything else is there!]; it's just a matter of finding and collating them.) close the program. Bonus topic: open two programs at once to show that it's possible. And show switching between them (and possibly cutting and pasting ditto), otherwise the _reason_ for doing so isn't obvious. Launch Windows Explorer (we're in the Win 7 group) or File Explorer. Demonstrate how to navigate, illustrate the differences between a folder and a file, how to search, rename, delete, and use the Recycle Bin. (How _would_ you demonstrate the differences between a folder and a file?) Advanced topics - installing more programs, basic (very basic) networking, Internet access, how and where to download something, what is email, etc. Data backups - who should do it and who needn't bother. Who needn't bother? There could be a TOC or Index that loads in a browser, then you'd pick the topic you want to see from there. People can't be bothered to read these days, but they'll usually pause to watch a video if it's short enough. Add a very small dose of humor or Easter Eggs to generate discussion and participation. Too much will kill the experience. That's just off the top of my head, so the whole idea is probably full of holes. No, excellent idea IMO. Would even, IMO, be worth selling as a CD/DVD. (If you made it right, it could play on both a PC and a home DVD player, each with slightly different menus.) -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf You can't abdicate and eat it - attributed to Wallis Simpson, in Radio Times 14-20 January 2012. |
#72
|
|||
|
|||
Positioning the Windows Explorer windows
On 3/5/18 4:44 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2018 12:10:23 -0700, Ken Blake wrote: On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer wrote: What about the idea of improving the documentation? An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I think it highly unlikely that it will. It's not that hard, *if* they are interested in doing it. But, I don't think they give a damn. Provide the new owner with a very easy to use means of feedback. And then, pay attention to it. How many times have we read in this and other newsgroups that MS doesn't care what the users think? You get the kind of attitude of "Why do it"?" when there is no competition to do better than them, whoever "them" happens to be. What about the idea of a video, or a series of short videos, that offers to launch when the computer is new and can be accessed on demand later? Instead of text-based Help, it would be video-based and possibly interactive. For all I know, Cortana can already do that now. What's old is new again! LOL This is *exactly* the idea that Apple used when they introduced the first Mac. They provided just this kind of instructions via floppy disks. You can find those videos on You Tube. How to use the mouse, etc. They're really fun to watch. You don't want to use Cortana, because the may not know *how* to use Cortana. Everyone refuses to try to think like the newbie. That's the problem. How would I do today what Apple did then? I would put everything on a thumb drive that's included with the computer. I would also put it on the the web so the user, after they are familiar with what they are doing, can download the file the contents in case the drive gets lost, or eventually fails. I would have the computer boot to a small video every time it is turned on, until the user learns to check a box that says "Don't run the video." The video would use clear instructions on how to plug the thumb drive in, including how *not* to install it upside down. :-) When you plug the thumb drive in, another video automatically starts. It explains the basics of the mouse, touchpad (if it's laptop) and all the basics of manipulating windows, using File Explorer, what the hard drive is, everything the user needs to know to be able to get started. Next, have an easy to use online course on the thumb drive that goes deeper into the OS. Don't do You Tube videos. Remember, they may not know how to use a browser! I've had users think the browser is the operating system. Have a well written book on the thumb drive in PDF format. Have the book open with as simple of a PDF reader as you can create. Don't try to have a newbie use Adobe Acrobat or similar. Remember, they don't have a clue what a PDF reader even is. Done right, it won't be hard for most people to pick up on how to use the computer. Will it work for 100% of new users? No, as there will always be a small group of people that will never understand how to use a computer. I once knew a woman where the employer had sent her to DOS class 3 times, and she still could not format a floppy disk. Call it Welcome! or New Feature Tour or Get To Know Windows. I like "Welcome to Windows 10" or whatever version it is at the time. Printed documentation is expensive in multiple ways and large text files will be too daunting for many users to delve into, but these days with Youtube on every device almost everyone knows how to watch a video. I'm so tired of hearing about the expense that I'm ready to puke. Let's complain about it, but not work at trying to solve the problem. I'm totally disgusted about it, especially when every one sits around and bitches about it, but offers nothing for a solution. How would I solve this problem? Part of the answer is in the above paragraphs. Put the book on the thumb drive, formatted to letter sized paper, normal sized text, and the user can print whatever portions desired. Have a damned good index. I don't think anybody knows what a good index is, anymore. :-( Set the book up in sections, so each section can be updated individually. "But, what about page numbers?" H E double hockey sticks!!! I mitigated that problem in the mid-1990's. Instead of numbering the pages 1-500, the first chapter is numbered 1-1, 1-2, 1-3, etc. Chapter 2 is 2-1, 2-2, 2-3, etc. And so on and so forth. Need to update a chapter? Just update the chapter, and redo the index. Done! "But, but but, how do you find the chapter you want with no standard page numbers to reference?" Put a black rectangle on the edge of the page, with a 1 for Chapter 1, 2 for Chapter 2, etc. Then stagger them from top to bottom as if they were index tabs. Fan the pages until you find the number you want. Or, simply bend the pages so you see the black, and count. I actually did this for a housing manual I wrote, and it worked quite well. Some where on my hard drive, I still have that manual. MS and others could put the book on the hard drive also, and use the Windows update system to keep the book updated. Someone that wants a physical print, could take it to a print shop like UPS and have it printed. If you call around, you might actually find a really good deal on the printing and have it printed. I would have it duplexed, and punched for a 3 ring binder. Then when that new Chapter 7 comes out, it's easy to insert. Possible topics: Launch a program, resize its window, move the window to another part of the screen, cut/paste some text, copy/paste other text, add/delete text, close the program. Bonus topic: open two programs at once to show that it's possible. Launch Windows Explorer (we're in the Win 7 group) or File Explorer. Demonstrate how to navigate, illustrate the differences between a folder and a file, how to search, rename, delete, and use the Recycle Bin. Advanced topics - installing more programs, basic (very basic) networking, Internet access, how and where to download something, what is email, etc. Data backups - who should do it and who needn't bother. All of the above, and more. There could be a TOC or Index that loads in a browser, then you'd pick the topic you want to see from there. People can't be bothered to read these days, but they'll usually pause to watch a video if it's short enough. Add a very small dose of humor or Easter Eggs to generate discussion and participation. Too much will kill the experience. What good is that if the newbie doesn't know how to use a browser?? :-) Keep it as simple as possible. You can't go wrong with the KISS principle. In that simple PDF reader, make sure the new user can click on a button (one of the first things you should teach them) that takes them to the index. By now you should have taught them how to navigate the file. Tell them they can navigate the index, and when they find the topic they want, double click on it and it takes them to the correct spot in the book. That's just off the top of my head, so the whole idea is probably full of holes. Nope. You just came up with Steve Jobs answer from the early '80s. LOL I've actually thought about doing this for my own tutoring uses. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.11.6 Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit) Thunderbird 52.0 "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!" |
#73
|
|||
|
|||
Explaining the file system hierarchy.
J. P.
My problem - I think! - is conveying the concept of files and folders within folders, especially the concept that *each level is the same*. Would equating folders to plain cardboard boxes be something ? Those come in all sizes and can be put inside each other, and binders* can be put inside as well as next to them (folders containing files as well as other folders). *binders equating files, as they can contain any number of sheets - which equate to sectors. Regards, Rudy Wieser "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message ... In message , Ken Springer writes: Sorry for the late replies to everyone. I use Albasani.net, and they've been down for like 3 days. Had withdrawal symptoms! LOL I would too (-: On 3/2/18 5:34 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: In message , Ken Springer writes: [] Explaining things like this can be hard when the user is fixated on doing a, b, c, d and has no interest in learning something else. The Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't grasp the concept of folders within folders. He's more than once asked me to go through downloading from his camera card - and he writes down each stage/step. He just doesn't grasp the _concept_. Exactly, grasping the concept is hard, and, IMO, none of the MS file managers windows adequately as they don't display the very top level correctly. That's why I created my own charts to show the very basic hierarchy of the filesystem. I've done one for both Windows and Mac, and would like to do one for Linux someday. You can see the charts he https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1lrrman43ubk5m6/AAA-p4e6O7vkDo5akEaOcINFa?dl=0 For any reader that looks at the charts, feel free to download for your own personal use. The goal was to make it as simple and self explanatory as possible, and still be able to print on letter sized paper. I'd appreciate comments and improvement suggestions if anyone has any. Thanks. There are obviously lots of concepts we have difficulty in conveying; your charts are (perhaps) good at conveying the top level, which you say is what you were trying to convey. My problem - I think! - is conveying the concept of files and folders within folders, especially the concept that *each level is the same*. [] -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf Look out for #1. Don't step in #2 either. |
#74
|
|||
|
|||
Positioning the Windows Explorer windows
"Ken Springer" wrote
| An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I | think it highly unlikely that it will. | | It's not that hard, *if* they are interested in doing it. But, I don't | think they give a damn. | | Provide the new owner with a very easy to use means of feedback. And | then, pay attention to it. How many times have we read in this and | other newsgroups that MS doesn't care what the users think? | It should be noted that their customer is corporate. That's not obvious, given that they sell so many licenses in retail computers. And Bill Gates famously bragged to Warren Buffett that he should invest in Microsoft because they get a guaranteed "Windows tax" on nearly every PC sold. (Buffett declined, saying he doesn't invest in things he doesn't understand. But Berkshire Hathaway is heavily invested in Apple, so maybe he was just being diplomatic. The corporate world is very different. Microsoft have them over a barrel and charge for seat licenses. They also charge seat licenses for MS Office. Those two have always been Microsoft's bread and butter. Everything is catering to corporate. That's why software compatibility is so much better than Macs. Corporate write their own custom software and won't buy Windows if MS breaks that software. It's also a big part of the reason that Firefox floundered. It doesn't provide a good system for allowing IT to control peoples' browsers. IE was designed for that from the beginning. Windows 10 is the first time MS have made a move to milk the retail customer more, and even there Win10 "enterprise" version allows IT people to block updates. They've forked Windows to some extent. (Remember, the end of 9X was actually the end of a SOHo version of Windows. Everyone had to switch to a workstation OS.) In the corporate world there will be training to use the software. People won't really learn how to use Windows. They'll learn how to do their job. (Actually, most IT people don't even know Windows very well. They just know how to run scripts to set up workstations.) Another issue is that Microsoft actually don't want people to be able to use their computer. That just means more support costs. Nor do IT depts -- who depend on ignorance for their income as well as for system security -- want people to know what they're doing. Once one leaves the window of MS Word and starts trying to manage the filesystem, install software, etc, one enters a world where few venture. Much of what one wants to do there is obfuscated and slathered with unnecessary abstruseness. Before you know it you're in the realm of secret Registry incantations. Even the IT people can't keep up with those. That's why they have Microsoft Management Console and Group Policy Editor -- so that IT people can configure systems without understanding the Registry, while civilians can't do anything at all. Many of the secret Registry tweaks are officially documented, but not understandable or even discoverable to most. The whole system is like that. Try to block 3rd-party cookies in IE and you're faced with an intimidating "Advanced" button to even find the settings. That's if you even knew to look under "Privacy" for those settings. That's already ruled out 99% of people from stopping the grossest level of 3rd-party tracking online. The adware/spyware business model of Google and others online would collapse if even half the public had the slightest idea of how to set up their computer. Then wander over to IE Security.... 5 categories of settings... 50+ settings in each. Those are reflected multiple times in the Registry, for a total thousands of settings. And some of them you can't see or set yourself. But what about the ones that you can set? How many people know what it means to "Allow webpages to use restricted protocols for active content"? It's not in the help. The help reads like an advertising flyer, or like the first 3 pages of your toaster oven manual: "Care for your wonderful Acme Toaster Oven by wiping the shiny exterior periodically with Acme (R) brand soft cloths." Ken Blake made the point that MS can save money by not distributing paper. But it's more complicated than that. They save money on support costs by keeping people in the dark. They also have corporate buddies to think about. (Why else would 3rd-party cookies, spyware by definition, be enabled by default while the settings are hidden?) So there's the public, most of whom don't want to learn this stuff. There's corporate/IT, who don't want people using their computers except for assigned work. And there's Microsoft, who want to help corporate, IT, and partners, while keeping support costs down. Finally there's the tech ecosystem -- MS and their partners -- who cooperate to milk the public. No one in that group benefits from people controlling their computers. Apropos of that is the trend toward kiddifying obfuscation. Cute buttons, shopping icons, hidden settings. Like Apple. If you make it seem simple and lock it down then most people will think it's more fun and more stable.... Hey, kids, let's go shopping! (In the digital photo group there are lots of Mac users always talking about "asset management", which is a fancy term for, "I have no idea where my files are. Is Picassa what I need? Help!!" They work with Photoshop but need special software just to tell them where their photos are. A file system for the file system.) |
#75
|
|||
|
|||
Explaining the file system hierarchy.
In message , R.Wieser
writes: J. P. My problem - I think! - is conveying the concept of files and folders within folders, especially the concept that *each level is the same*. Would equating folders to plain cardboard boxes be something ? Those come in all sizes and can be put inside each other, and binders* can be put inside as well as next to them (folders containing files as well as other folders). *binders equating files, as they can contain any number of sheets - which equate to sectors. [] Not a bad analogy. I might use it. Though _ideally_ I'd like to get away from the idea of size altogether - but there's nothing in the real world that does. Mandelbrot graphics, perhaps, but they're not a common concept either. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf "I am entitled to my own opinion." "Yes, but it's your constant assumption that everyone else is also that's so annoying." - Vila & Avon |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | Rate This Thread |
|
|