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Positioning the Windows Explorer windows



 
 
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  #46  
Old March 2nd 18, 04:42 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Ken Blake[_5_]
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Posts: 2,221
Default Explaining the file system hierarchy. (was: Positioning the Windows Explorer windows)

On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 12:34:34 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't
grasp the concept of folders within folders.



Have you tried asking him to visualize a filing cabinet containing
folders, and several folders in each of them?

Perhaps even better than visualizing it is demonstrating it in an
actual filing cabinet, if you have one handy.

Ads
  #47  
Old March 2nd 18, 05:31 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ken Blake[_5_]
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Posts: 2,221
Default Positioning the Windows Explorer windows

On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 12:08:33 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

You have pretty much mirrored my frustration with the lack of any
documentation being included with computers. It's no wonder people have
so little clue as to how to use a computer.



Although I somewhat share your frustration, at least in part, let me
make several comments disagreeing with you:

1. It costs considerably more to print documentation that it does to
create a Windows DVD. So the lack of documentation keeps the cost
down.

2. The lack of documentation *may* (see below) be an issue for some
people, but not for most of us with Windows experience. So as far as
I'm concerned, keeping the cost down by not having documentation is
good, not bad.

3. Most people never look at whatever documentation they get with
their computers, cars, TV sets, or anything else. They put it away
somewhere, and usually can't remember where. Or maybe they throw it
away. They don't even look at it when it's a one or two page flyer
that came with the computer.

As a single example, look at how many people who get a one or two page
flyer with their computer telling them about the recovery partition
that comes with it instead of a DVD, and tells them they should copy
it to a DVD and how to do it, and not only don't do it, but never
realize that they could or should.

And because most people never look at their documentation, that's
another reason why keeping the cost down by not having documentation
is good, not bad.

4. In my experience, back in the days when documentation used to be
much more common with computers and software packages, it was
typically somewhere between mediocre and very poor. If you wanted good
documentation, you bought a third-party book.

5. Those third-party books are still available. And since they are
almost always better than what used to come with the computer or
software, and probably cost less than the addition to the price that
would exist if they were included with it, that's what people should
get.

6. Very few people buy those third-party books. They don't because
they don't want to take the time and trouble to read them any more
than they used to when they were included with the software packages.
Or in some cases because they can't afford them.


I was lucky, I didn't start out with Windows. My first windowing
computer was an Atari 1040ST. That manual DID tell you how to drag and
drop, and everything else. So when I was exposed to Windows, those
things I already knew how to do.



I didn't start out with Windows either. I started out with mainframe
computers (in 1962). When I started with PCs (in 1987), it was with on
an IBM clone running DOS (3.0). I started with Windows a few years
later (Windows 2.0, running under DOS), but didn't use it much. It was
just a way to learn something new (and something that I correctly
anticipated would take over) and get familiar with it.

I've run almost every version of Windows from 3.0 to 10 since then. I
learned it from my early experience with 2.0, from reading books
about it, from my son, who started with PCs before I did, from other
friends with more Windows experience that I had, from attending
meetings of the local PC Users Group, from my own trial, error, and
research, and from newsgroups.

Also having skipped almost no versions of Windows except for Me, going
from one version to the next was seldom a big jump for me. It's a much
bigger jump for those who stick for too long with an old obsolescent
version before moving to a new one, since they have to take in a lot
more changes at once. Many, if not most, people who don't like Windows
10 fall into that category, and that's largely the reason most people
don't like it.


A friend of mine recently made a very cogent comment... "Ignorance is a
choice." After he said that, I lost all sympathy for people having
computer issues. They can go out and find the answers, or live with the
problem.



Ignorance is only partly a choice. Many people don't know they can go
out and find the answers, or don't even know that they can do that.

And many people don't have the time to do it; it's usually a lot
quicker to ask a question and be told the answer than it is to search
for it, whether in books, on the web, or anywhere else.

I have lots of sympathy for people with computer problems. That's why
I help many friend and relatives with their computer problems, and
it's also the reason I'm here in this newsgroup and others, and also
in the Microsoft Windows forums--to help when I can.
  #48  
Old March 2nd 18, 05:33 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ken Blake[_5_]
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Posts: 2,221
Default Positioning the Windows Explorer windows

On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 22:08:59 -0500, "Bob_S" wrote:

"Mayayana" wrote in message news

"Bob_S" wrote

| Right-click on Explorer icon, select Properties and enter what you want
in
| the Target window.
|

What he wants is 2 Explorer windows, for two
different folders, opening next to each other, one
on the left and one on the right. If you can choose
position in shortcut properties it's news to me.


That’s what I get for working on two systems and reading a newsgroup at the
same time....



As long as you're not also chewing gum... G
  #49  
Old March 2nd 18, 05:38 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ken Blake[_5_]
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Posts: 2,221
Default Positioning the Windows Explorer windows

On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 22:54:54 -0500, "Bob_S" wrote:

"Ken Springer" wrote in message news

On 3/1/18 8:08 PM, Bob_S wrote:
"Mayayana" wrote in message news
"Bob_S" wrote

| Right-click on Explorer icon, select Properties and enter what you
want
in
| the Target window.
|

What he wants is 2 Explorer windows, for two
different folders, opening next to each other, one
on the left and one on the right. If you can choose
position in shortcut properties it's news to me.


That’s what I get for working on two systems and reading a newsgroup at
the
same time....

ROFL


Ken,

See if "Total Commander" doesn't get you closer to what you want to do. The
SourceForge site is down right now but here's the authors page
https://www.ghisler.com/



Total Commander is a good choice. I used it for a while and liked it a
lot.

But even better, as far as I'm concerned, is Directory Opus
(https://www.gpsoft.com.au/), which is what I now use. Unfortunately
it's not free, but it's worth the cost ($89 AUD) to me.
  #50  
Old March 2nd 18, 08:17 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
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Posts: 2,679
Default Explaining the file system hierarchy.

In message , Wolf K
writes:
On 2018-03-02 07:34, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
[...]
What _is_ it that makes the hierarchical file/folder system, which is
so obvious to us, so difficult to grasp as a concept to some? I'd
really like to know. My friend, for example, just about knows how to
make a new folder - but I suspect would never think of doing so, or
at best would only ever do so in one or two specific places.


Good question. It may be that some people never used real manila
folders stored in file cabinets. Or they just can't classify


I don't think it was/is a good metaphor anyway. I _have_ used manila
folders, but I don't think I've ever put them inside each other! They
were a good metaphor when the hierarchy was only one level deep, i. e.
not really a hierarchy. But ...

hierarchically to begin with. You wouldn't believe the number of


.... I think that's the real problem. At least, have never been trained
to think hierarchically. I guess there are _some_ who genuinely can't,
and a lot more who have never really been trained to. (And no, I'm not
claiming this is something simple to do. As I have found.)
[]
I think it's a glitch in the brain. Eg, I used to have my grade 9
students organise their 3-ring binders by subject. About 10% couldn't
do it even when looking at a page of Geography notes in the Math
section. So I helped them move their notes into the right sections,
step by step, and two days later it was all a mess again.


Despite it being them who invented the metaphor, Microsoft are a bit to
blame he their folders, and the ones they encourage users to use, are
very sloppy (and even inconsistent).

Then there are people who are neatness-blind, or tone-deaf. Etc.


I'm very untidy in my house, but (IMO) tidy inside my computer.

Neurologists will solve some of these puzzles eventually.

(-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If your mind goes blank, remember to turn down the sound.
  #51  
Old March 2nd 18, 11:33 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default Explaining the file system hierarchy.

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't
grasp the concept of folders within folders.


A tree structure might be just as effective a teaching tool.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_structure

Finding your files is like "going down a mine".

It also makes it possible to give a justification
for behaviors when "moving" a file versus "copying"
a file. If you have two inverted trees in your diagram,
it's pretty hard to get the file from one tree to another
without copying it. Whereas you can imagine moving
a file up and down within a single inverted tree.

The purpose of the desktop metaphor was to answer the
question "what is this big space on the CRT screen for".
And to answer that, the first GUI people said it
"was the top surface of your desk". Which it really
isn't. But you have to make this stuff up, as part
of the "story".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_metaphor

"The desktop metaphor was first introduced by Alan Kay
at Xerox PARC in 1970"

I think at least some desktops offered more convincing
representations. (There have been attempts to animate
everything, but such attempts are doomed to fail from
a productivity perspective.)

I'm sure if someone was teaching you how to use
an IBM mainframe, the lesson wouldn't have worked this way.
You would be going "what is this 191 and 192 stuff
and why do I want to SWAP A B ?". Thankfully the
explanations now should be a bit milder and easier
to take.

IPL CMS,

Paul
  #52  
Old March 3rd 18, 12:37 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
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Posts: 2,679
Default Explaining the file system hierarchy.

In message , Paul
writes:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who
doesn't grasp the concept of folders within folders.


A tree structure might be just as effective a teaching tool.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_structure


I'm sure I must have used the tree metaphor; as far as it goes, it's a
good one: branches can have other branches but also leaves, and leaves
can even grow out of the trunk.

I think it's just a mental block.


Finding your files is like "going down a mine".

It also makes it possible to give a justification
for behaviors when "moving" a file versus "copying"
a file. If you have two inverted trees in your diagram,
it's pretty hard to get the file from one tree to another
without copying it. Whereas you can imagine moving
a file up and down within a single inverted tree.


But that only works if you intuitively grasp the concept in the first
place. Extra metaphors are just, after a point, extra sources of
confusion.

The purpose of the desktop metaphor was to answer the
question "what is this big space on the CRT screen for".
And to answer that, the first GUI people said it
"was the top surface of your desk". Which it really
isn't. But you have to make this stuff up, as part
of the "story".


I never thought it was a good metaphor, and don't really think of my
"desktop" as a real desk top.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_metaphor

"The desktop metaphor was first introduced by Alan Kay
at Xerox PARC in 1970"


An awful lot of windows concepts seem to be the subject of claims from
Xerox PARC in the '70s (-:.

I think at least some desktops offered more convincing
representations. (There have been attempts to animate
everything, but such attempts are doomed to fail from
a productivity perspective.)


I remember one - I think it was Packard Bell - who presented a view of a
hallway, with rooms opening off it.

I'm sure if someone was teaching you how to use
an IBM mainframe, the lesson wouldn't have worked this way.
You would be going "what is this 191 and 192 stuff
and why do I want to SWAP A B ?". Thankfully the
explanations now should be a bit milder and easier
to take.

I never programmed that particular processor, but if the reason is what
I think it is, I don't think I'd have wondered why I might want to use a
swap instruction. Of course I don't know about the "191 and 192 stuff".

IPL CMS,

interrupt, program, load?

Paul

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Once a mind is opened it is very hard to shut.
  #53  
Old March 3rd 18, 05:43 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default Explaining the file system hierarchy.

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Paul


IPL CMS,

interrupt, program, load?


Initial Program Load perhaps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conver...Monitor_System

The first computer I worked on, was a mainframe that took
punched cards. And those had a tiny bit of JCL at the start,
and you'd slap some number of 7-8-9 (orange) and 6-7-8-9
(pink) cards to your deck (those are a kind of record marker).
I think when i was done with punched cards, I'd collected
around two boxes (4000 cards).

Hey, look! They have a picture of the pink card!!! Yikes.
It's missing the 6-7-8-9 holes in a single column though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:H...rd_Punch-2.jpg

And no, the inhabitants of the room didn't look like this.
The keypunch room looked like a hippie convention. These
people are entirely too clean cut.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...nes_in_use.jpg
https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/e...4506VV4002.jpg

Back then, they had a program to allow high-school students
access to the university mainframe.

There were 25 key-punches, but at busy times, there
wasn't a seat left in the house.

Surprisingly, not a lot of students took up the offer.
A good thing I guess. You couldn't bring food in there,
so staying there meant a bit of "suffering" :-)

Paul
  #54  
Old March 3rd 18, 05:52 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
B00ze
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Posts: 472
Default Positioning the Windows Explorer windows

On 2018-03-02 00:57, Paul wrote:

B00ze wrote:

Hmmm, doesn't work well on my system. I end-up with two internet
browser windows (positioned as requested,) and one explorer window
(folder2). I removed the screen-width code and I still end-up with two
browser windows and one explorer window. I tried adding pauses here
and there but it did not help. Might be because I run Classic Shell
and Clover, but not really interested in unInstalling them to test ;-)

Regards,


You can use virtual machines to test code like that.
Installing them from an installer DVD is a nuisance.


Yeah, I mean to get to that at some point. I used to have 2 copies of Xp
running dual boot so I could test things, but nowadays I run 7/10 and 7
32 bits (might replace that with a Linux variant one day, but the
partition is pretty small). I would need a bigger SSD to run more.

But Microsoft has some pre-baked ones (which run for at
least the 30 day grace period), which you could use.
The selection isn't as wide as it used to be. I have
a WinXP one and a Vista one, from back when those were offered.
https://developer.microsoft.com/en-u...vms/#downloads
When the grace period expires, you can unpack the original download
as many times as you want.


Thanks, Bookmarked (typical Microsoft, the VM downloads are in the
Microsoft-Edge folder).

You may need to change the workgroup on those from MSHOME to WORKGROUP.
That's something I have to remember to do when using one. And I leave
the network cable unplugged, until Windows Update is disabled on the
Windows 7 one.

I use the VirtualBox versions.


Yeah, that's what I plan to use. We use VMWare @ work but it's
unfortunately (no longer) free for home use...

The Windows 10 Insider version, the OS itself will expire after
a while. So the Insider version isn't a good deal as such. Probably
a good deal if you cannot get the Insider to run any other way (and
you needed an Insider version for some test case).


Says they expire after 90 days. But running things in Insider isn't
really what I need - I don't have time to test everything I use each
time Microsoft releases a new sub-version.

Best Regards,

--
! _\|/_ Sylvain /
! (o o) Memberavid-Suzuki-Fdn/EFF/Red+Cross/SPCA/Planetary-Society
oO-( )-Oo How come I can never find Troi when I'm angry at her?

  #55  
Old March 3rd 18, 06:06 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
B00ze
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Posts: 472
Default Positioning the Windows Explorer windows

On 2018-03-02 09:29, Mayayana wrote:

"B00ze" wrote

| Hmmm, doesn't work well on my system. I end-up with two internet browser
| windows (positioned as requested,) and one explorer window (folder2).

I wrote it on XP and haven't had a chance to test it
on 7. It may not work on all systems. That's why
I suggested to Ken that he test it first. Shell is
quirky, as you know.


Yeah, I really think it's Clover. It patches Explorer (installs a BHO)
and intercepts new windows and turns them into TABs.

But.... the result you get seems odd. What's the
location shown in the title bar of the IE on the left?
Could it be that Fol1 is not a valid path? Or that it's
restricted?


Nope, I used C:\ and D:\ for the test. It's the NAVIGATE, it doesn't
work right, they never go to where we ask.

Also, you shouldn't be seeing the first IE. It's never
made visible. (Though that quirk could be a Windows
security change, I'd be surprised.)


That's the strange thing, I am not seeing that first window. I end-up
with 2 correctly positioned IE windows, and then Clover intercepts the
folder2 navigate command and opens-up a new TAB in my existing Explorer
window. No idea where the first navigate goes lol.

Each folder starts as an IE instance and becomes
an Explorer instance as a result of navigating to a
folder rather than a webpage. (The document object
then becomes a ShellFolderView object.) So.... if you
get one folder then it seems to be working. If the other
folder is not loading then I'd suspect the folder, or
the code.


No I think the code's fine. It's fun that we can move the window around
and tell it to browse a folder ALL before making it visible, I was
afraid I'd see everything paint when I read the first few lines (before
seeing the visible = True).

That Clover program interferes with Classic Shell too, but I kinda like
having tabs. An explorer replacement is on the TODO list, then I can get
rid of the Clover hack.

Best Regards,

--
! _\|/_ Sylvain /
! (o o) Memberavid-Suzuki-Fdn/EFF/Red+Cross/SPCA/Planetary-Society
oO-( )-Oo CHILDISH GAME: One at which you cannot beat your spouse.

  #56  
Old March 3rd 18, 07:42 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Mayayana
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Posts: 6,438
Default Positioning the Windows Explorer windows


"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote

| I don't think BG has claimed either kingship or genius-ship - not in the
| last decade or two, anyway.
|
I guess we're way OT here, but it's an interesting
issue. If you do a search for something like...

gates foundation education problems

...you'll find all sorts of links. Here's an especially
pithy one:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...es-foundation/

Long story short, with no experience at all, Bill
Gates just assumed he was such a brilliant business
leader that he would also be brilliant at fixing
education. It's classic geek short-sightedness,
thinking that logical calculation is the same thing
as intelligence.
He dumped piles of money into education with
the idea that teachers can't be allowed to be
responsible for their job and that children must be
assessed by standardized tests. What does that
mean? It means that for Mr. Windows, the human
element is the problem in education. It needs to
be mechanized, adapted to the abilities of
spreadsheets and algorythms. And it needs to
teach testable learning.

The chilling aspect of this is that Gates had such
extreme influence, with things like promoting
Common Core, simply by virtue of his wealth.


  #57  
Old March 4th 18, 07:19 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Ken Springer[_2_]
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Posts: 3,817
Default Explaining the file system hierarchy.

Sorry for the late replies to everyone. I use Albasani.net, and they've
been down for like 3 days.

Had withdrawal symptoms! LOL

On 3/2/18 5:34 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Ken Springer
writes:
[]
At this stage, Total Commander will "totally confuse" this guy. :-)

The concept of the filesystem hierarchy still hasn't sunk in. The
"light bulb" hasn't come on.

Explaining things like this can be hard when the user is fixated on
doing a, b, c, d and has no interest in learning something else. The


Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't
grasp the concept of folders within folders. He's more than once asked
me to go through downloading from his camera card - and he writes down
each stage/step. He just doesn't grasp the _concept_.


Exactly, grasping the concept is hard, and, IMO, none of the MS file
managers windows adequately as they don't display the very top level
correctly. That's why I created my own charts to show the very basic
hierarchy of the filesystem. I've done one for both Windows and Mac,
and would like to do one for Linux someday.

You can see the charts he
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1lrrman43...kEaOcINFa?dl=0

For any reader that looks at the charts, feel free to download for your
own personal use. The goal was to make it as simple and self
explanatory as possible, and still be able to print on letter sized
paper. I'd appreciate comments and improvement suggestions if anyone
has any.

I got my brother-in-law to try Directory Opus, and we turned on the
feature that

(He's not dim; I'm quite proud that he's managed to convert most of his
LP collection onto CDs, using mp3directcut to cut sides into tracks, and
so on. He's a retired printer - from hot metal days, but I think would
have used linotype machines, not just hand-layout.)


The guy I'm working with is similar, and I think he may have been beat
down growing up with people telling him he is dumb. As a result, he's
possibly over compensated in areas of life. I haven't heard from him in
a couple of days, so I'm thinking he's finally got a grasp on just the
things he wants to do.

hierarchy is so much easier to explain when your file manager has
"lines" like XP and older system have. I may end up installing only


(My friend has Vista, which I think still has the lines.)


In XP the lines are optional, in Vista they don't exist. But Classic
Explorer, part of Classic Shell, can show the lines, and I have mine set
that way.

the Classic Explorer part of Classic Shell, so he has the lines for his
eyes to follow. I've created a simple chart that visually shows the
hierarchy, but laid out as if it was an organizational chart, but I
don't know if he's really looked at it.


That is indeed the problem. You can't give them too much at once, or
they suffer from information overload.


What I tell everyone one, is when what I say starts going over their
head, it's time to quit.

I'm fairly sure that, at some point, he's going to decide he wants his
music categorized, into R&B, country, soft rock, etc., and that should
be the perfect time to explain the hierarchy.

Could be; good luck.

What _is_ it that makes the hierarchical file/folder system, which is so
obvious to us, so difficult to grasp as a concept to some? I'd really
like to know. My friend, for example, just about knows how to make a new
folder - but I suspect would never think of doing so, or at best would
only ever do so in one or two specific places.


Humans, I think, are basically visual at the core. But if the visual
feed your brain gets doesn't make sense, even that is useless. The
charts display the same thing as the MS file managers, but just laid out
in a way many of us are used to seeing, a simple organizational chart.
Even here, some explanation may be necessary.

For some, the use of color may help. So, if you ad a 3rd party program
like Folder Colorizer, where, say, all folders containing bills are
green, that may make it easier. I haven't tested this as yet.



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #58  
Old March 4th 18, 07:28 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Ken Springer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,817
Default Explaining the file system hierarchy.

On 3/2/18 7:50 AM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-03-02 07:34, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
[...]
What _is_ it that makes the hierarchical file/folder system, which is so
obvious to us, so difficult to grasp as a concept to some? I'd really
like to know. My friend, for example, just about knows how to make a new
folder - but I suspect would never think of doing so, or at best would
only ever do so in one or two specific places.


Good question. It may be that some people never used real manila folders
stored in file cabinets. Or they just can't classify hierarchically to
begin with. You wouldn't believe the number of incorrectly classified
lists I've seen, even in papers published in professional journals. For
that matter, many scientific problems hide classification/category
errors in their assumptions. Eg, nature vs nurture. "If you don't ask
the right question...."

I think it's a glitch in the brain. Eg, I used to have my grade 9
students organise their 3-ring binders by subject. About 10% couldn't do
it even when looking at a page of Geography notes in the Math section.
So I helped them move their notes into the right sections, step by step,
and two days later it was all a mess again.


Is it a glitch, or just the fact that we are all not alike, and our
brains work differently?

Then there are people who are neatness-blind, or tone-deaf. Etc.
Neurologists will solve some of these puzzles eventually.


You can put me in the neatness-blind category! LOL

All my life, if I left things in a mess, I knew that X was "over there".
When I try to organize, in a short time I don't know where anything is.



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #59  
Old March 4th 18, 07:28 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Ken Springer[_2_]
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Default Explaining the file system hierarchy.

On 3/2/18 12:17 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Wolf K
writes:
On 2018-03-02 07:34, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
[...]
What _is_ it that makes the hierarchical file/folder system, which is
so obvious to us, so difficult to grasp as a concept to some? I'd
really like to know. My friend, for example, just about knows how to
make a new folder - but I suspect would never think of doing so, or
at best would only ever do so in one or two specific places.


Good question. It may be that some people never used real manila
folders stored in file cabinets. Or they just can't classify


I don't think it was/is a good metaphor anyway. I _have_ used manila
folders, but I don't think I've ever put them inside each other! They
were a good metaphor when the hierarchy was only one level deep, i. e.
not really a hierarchy. But ...


One metaphor I used to use is the case of a Christmas present. You open
the box, and there's another box inside plus a couple of items. Open
that box, and still another box and some items. On and on.

hierarchically to begin with. You wouldn't believe the number of


... I think that's the real problem. At least, have never been trained
to think hierarchically. I guess there are _some_ who genuinely can't,
and a lot more who have never really been trained to. (And no, I'm not
claiming this is something simple to do. As I have found.)
[]
I think it's a glitch in the brain. Eg, I used to have my grade 9
students organise their 3-ring binders by subject. About 10% couldn't
do it even when looking at a page of Geography notes in the Math
section. So I helped them move their notes into the right sections,
step by step, and two days later it was all a mess again.


Despite it being them who invented the metaphor, Microsoft are a bit to
blame he their folders, and the ones they encourage users to use, are
very sloppy (and even inconsistent).

Then there are people who are neatness-blind, or tone-deaf. Etc.


I'm very untidy in my house, but (IMO) tidy inside my computer.

Neurologists will solve some of these puzzles eventually.

(-:



--
Ken
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  #60  
Old March 4th 18, 07:37 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Ken Springer[_2_]
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Default Explaining the file system hierarchy.

On 3/2/18 8:42 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 12:34:34 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't
grasp the concept of folders within folders.



Have you tried asking him to visualize a filing cabinet containing
folders, and several folders in each of them?

Perhaps even better than visualizing it is demonstrating it in an
actual filing cabinet, if you have one handy.


I used to use the "folder in a folder" metaphor too, but this will break
down when the student suddenly realizes you can't physically fit any
more folders inside the one folder.

Maybe better is this:

You need a bunch of folders with the tabs staggered across the top. One
level is a folder with the tab on the left end. The next level down is
a physical folder with the tab one step to the right. Next level down
are folders with the tabs one more step to the right. :-)


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
 




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