What OS do most non-USA computers come with nowadays?

Mayayana wrote:

Mozilla actually uses two locations for their software data storage.
What two locations?

Thunderbird is as bad as Firefox. If one doesn't know how it all
works then a TBird user will lose all of their past email when their
computer fails.
How so? If you backup your OS user profile the POP mail is there. In
fact is so easy to move a profile with simple drag and drop to new
system that you can move it to another OS without issue such as Windows
to Linux with a simple operation copying a file and a directory

C:\Users\Me\AppData\Roaming\Thunderbird\Profiles\p rofiles.ini =
/home/me/.thunderbird/profiles.ini

C:\Users\Me\AppData\Roaming\Thunderbird\Profiles\R ANDOM.default =
/home/me/.thunderbird/RANDOM.default


--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

On 01 Feb 2017, "Mayayana" wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-10:

And you don't back up prefs.js or edit the configuration files --
userContent.css or userChrome.css?

Why would you assume that?

For SOHo users who own their computers, storage in the catacombs
the App Data hierarchy means that most never know how to back up
important data and never know it's at risk.

I know where things are.

Mozilla actually uses two locations for their software data
storage. Thunderbird is as bad as Firefox. If one doesn't know how
it all works then a TBird user will lose all of their past email
when their computer fails.

I know how it works. I back up my profiles regularly.

That may not matter to you if you use your computer mainly as a
dumb terminal to access Facebook, gmail and maybe Office 365. Many
people do. But for anyone who does work and/or uses local
software, proper backup involves what the techies like to refer to
as a "steep learning curve".

If by "you" you actually mean me, you are way overreaching.

Mayayana wrote:
"Nil" wrote

| Where does Mozilla store its prefs.js and user.js settings?
| You know right?
| It's a horrid location you have to agree.
|
| No I don't. That location works as well as any for me.
|

Thunderbird is as bad as Firefox.

If you examine the source code, 90% of Thunderbird is just
a copy of Firefox. Check how many DLLs they share in common.
That huge XUL.dll on modern versions. So there's bound to be
some details that are the same. Both could have a profile.ini,
both could have a randomly named profile folder. My Thunderbird
profile folder has around 500MB of files.

The Thunderbird source tarball, even has a build option,
where Thunderbird builds a copy of the Firefox which
is part of the tarball. Presumably this option, verifies
none of the original files got lost (around 130,000 in
the tarball). The tarball for both package is so large,
it can cause AV scanners to *crash*. One of the reasons
I don't keep tarballs on C: ...

You'll get a better feeling for the sheer ludicrous
nature of these softwares, after you've built one
from source. The process is likened to elephant excrement.
There's lots of it. To link everything together and
make "XUL.dll", takes ~3GB of RAM. As of today, you'd
probably need to be on a 64 bit OS to do it. I had to
change the kernel/user split, when I did a build on
the WinXP machine. It just barely fit.

Paul

"Jonathan N. Little" wrote

| Thunderbird is as bad as Firefox. If one doesn't know how it all
| works then a TBird user will lose all of their past email when their
| computer fails.
| How so? If you backup your OS user profile the POP mail is there.
.....
| C:\Users\Me\AppData\Roaming\Thunderbird\Profiles\p rofiles.ini =
| /home/me/.thunderbird/profiles.ini

Exactly what I'm saying. You have to know
about the locations of the files.

On Wed, 01 Feb 2017 13:50:42 -0000, Mayayana wrote:

"Nil" wrote

| Where does Mozilla store its prefs.js and user.js settings?
| You know right?
| It's a horrid location you have to agree.
|
| No I don't. That location works as well as any for me.
|

And you don't back up prefs.js or edit
the configuration files -- userContent.css
or userChrome.css?

The problem with obscure storage like that
is that it's designed for a corporate scenario
where any number of people might be logging
on to the computer, and none of those people
has authority to access the file system outside
of their personal folders. The IT dept decides
on software configuration. For those people
it's fine because they don't know anything about
the computer and are not allowed to know.
For SOHo users who own their computers,
storage in the catacombs the App Data hierarchy
means that most never know how to back up
important data and never know it's at risk.

Mozilla actually uses two locations for their
software data storage. Thunderbird is as bad as
Firefox. If one doesn't know how it all works then
a TBird user will lose all of their past email when
their computer fails.

That may not matter to you if you use your
computer mainly as a dumb terminal to access
Facebook, gmail and maybe Office 365. Many
people do. But for anyone who does work and/or
uses local software, proper backup involves
what the techies like to refer to as a "steep
learning curve".

I just back up the entire disk, don't you? It's not rocket science. Why do you consider one file more important than another?

--
In 1977, researchers detected a strong radio signal from space that lasted 72 seconds. It hasn't been detected since.

Mayayana wrote:
"Jonathan N. Little" wrote

| Thunderbird is as bad as Firefox. If one doesn't know how it all
| works then a TBird user will lose all of their past email when their
| computer fails.
| How so? If you backup your OS user profile the POP mail is there.
....
| C:\Users\Me\AppData\Roaming\Thunderbird\Profiles\p rofiles.ini =
| /home/me/.thunderbird/profiles.ini

Exactly what I'm saying. You have to know
about the locations of the files.



No it is where it should be under the the user's profile, independent
from the application's install directory. Backup your profile and you
have your data saved. Where precisely each OS determines where user data
is stored is another thing. The initial criticism was the inconsistent
history of Windows applications NOT storing user data in the user's
profile.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 00:03:33 -0000, Jonathan N. Little wrote:

Mayayana wrote:
"Jonathan N. Little" wrote

| Thunderbird is as bad as Firefox. If one doesn't know how it all
| works then a TBird user will lose all of their past email when their
| computer fails.
| How so? If you backup your OS user profile the POP mail is there.
....
| C:\Users\Me\AppData\Roaming\Thunderbird\Profiles\p rofiles.ini =
| /home/me/.thunderbird/profiles.ini

Exactly what I'm saying. You have to know
about the locations of the files.

No it is where it should be under the the user's profile, independent
from the application's install directory. Backup your profile and you
have your data saved. Where precisely each OS determines where user data
is stored is another thing. The initial criticism was the inconsistent
history of Windows applications NOT storing user data in the user's
profile.

That's the fault of the programmer of the application, not of windows.

--
REALITY.EXE corrupt. Reboot universe (Y/N)?

James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 00:03:33 -0000, Jonathan N. Little
wrote:

Mayayana wrote:
"Jonathan N. Little" wrote

| Thunderbird is as bad as Firefox. If one doesn't know how it all
| works then a TBird user will lose all of their past email when their
| computer fails.
| How so? If you backup your OS user profile the POP mail is there.
....
| C:\Users\Me\AppData\Roaming\Thunderbird\Profiles\p rofiles.ini =
| /home/me/.thunderbird/profiles.ini

Exactly what I'm saying. You have to know
about the locations of the files.

No it is where it should be under the the user's profile, independent
from the application's install directory. Backup your profile and you
have your data saved. Where precisely each OS determines where user data
is stored is another thing. The initial criticism was the inconsistent
history of Windows applications NOT storing user data in the user's
profile.

That's the fault of the programmer of the application, not of windows.


The pressure to store in the cryptic binary registry is Windows fault
though...

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 00:17:32 -0000, Jonathan N. Little wrote:

James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 00:03:33 -0000, Jonathan N. Little
wrote:

Mayayana wrote:
"Jonathan N. Little" wrote

| Thunderbird is as bad as Firefox. If one doesn't know how it all
| works then a TBird user will lose all of their past email when their
| computer fails.
| How so? If you backup your OS user profile the POP mail is there.
....
| C:\Users\Me\AppData\Roaming\Thunderbird\Profiles\p rofiles.ini =
| /home/me/.thunderbird/profiles.ini

Exactly what I'm saying. You have to know
about the locations of the files.

No it is where it should be under the the user's profile, independent
from the application's install directory. Backup your profile and you
have your data saved. Where precisely each OS determines where user data
is stored is another thing. The initial criticism was the inconsistent
history of Windows applications NOT storing user data in the user's
profile.

That's the fault of the programmer of the application, not of windows.


The pressure to store in the cryptic binary registry is Windows fault
though...

No it isn't. It's better to have everything in one place than scattered in .ini files.


--
Abdicate (v.), to give up all hope of ever having a flat stomach.

James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 00:17:32 -0000, Jonathan N. Little
wrote:

James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 00:03:33 -0000, Jonathan N. Little
wrote:

Mayayana wrote:
"Jonathan N. Little" wrote

| Thunderbird is as bad as Firefox. If one doesn't know how it all
| works then a TBird user will lose all of their past email when
their
| computer fails.
| How so? If you backup your OS user profile the POP mail is there.
....
| C:\Users\Me\AppData\Roaming\Thunderbird\Profiles\p rofiles.ini =
| /home/me/.thunderbird/profiles.ini

Exactly what I'm saying. You have to know
about the locations of the files.

No it is where it should be under the the user's profile, independent
from the application's install directory. Backup your profile and you
have your data saved. Where precisely each OS determines where user
data
is stored is another thing. The initial criticism was the inconsistent
history of Windows applications NOT storing user data in the user's
profile.

That's the fault of the programmer of the application, not of windows.


The pressure to store in the cryptic binary registry is Windows fault
though...

No it isn't. It's better to have everything in one place than scattered
in .ini files.



And there goes portability...

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 00:42:50 -0000, Jonathan N. Little wrote:

James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 00:17:32 -0000, Jonathan N. Little
wrote:

James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 00:03:33 -0000, Jonathan N. Little
wrote:

Mayayana wrote:
"Jonathan N. Little" wrote

| Thunderbird is as bad as Firefox. If one doesn't know how it all
| works then a TBird user will lose all of their past email when
their
| computer fails.
| How so? If you backup your OS user profile the POP mail is there.
....
| C:\Users\Me\AppData\Roaming\Thunderbird\Profiles\p rofiles.ini =
| /home/me/.thunderbird/profiles.ini

Exactly what I'm saying. You have to know
about the locations of the files.

No it is where it should be under the the user's profile, independent
from the application's install directory. Backup your profile and you
have your data saved. Where precisely each OS determines where user
data
is stored is another thing. The initial criticism was the inconsistent
history of Windows applications NOT storing user data in the user's
profile.

That's the fault of the programmer of the application, not of windows.


The pressure to store in the cryptic binary registry is Windows fault
though...

No it isn't. It's better to have everything in one place than scattered
in .ini files.



And there goes portability...

Never used portability, what's it for?

--
All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote

| history of Windows applications NOT storing user data in the user's
| profile.
|
| That's the fault of the programmer of the application, not of windows.
|

Actually that's a long-running debate. Some people
feel very strongly that settings shouldn't be in the
Registry. Some feel very strongly that they shouldn't
be in program folders. Some people want only "portable
apps". In Win9x most settings were in program folders
if they weren't in the Registry. With XP Microsoft was
standardizing on the corporate workstation model. At
that point Microsoft pretended the App Data folders
were always where program files were supposed to go,
while config could go there or in the Registry.

But they were really rewriting history. In Win9x App
Data folders were mostly unused. They're only there
to accomodate multi-user setups.

Business is Microsoft's main customer and corporate
workstation is the template for NT. But hundreds of
millions of people own their own computer, don't
intentionally have anything like a "user profile", and don't
have multiple users set up on their machines. They
don't know about App Data folders. (Nor do they know
that Microsoft has given them risky and unnecessary
services by default that are only appropriate for
networked workstations. They assumed they were
buying a personal computer, not a corporate workstation.)

So what's the right way? It depends on how you use
the system and on what you want. That's not for Microsoft
to say, just as it's not for Microsoft to say how much
access restriction you should use by default. And
views also vary among programmers. Programmers who are
corporate employees, or who cater to business, follow the
app data religion. Some independents (Irfan View is a
good example) provide an option to use the program folder
or app data folder. Some software (Firefox, for example)
has had limited uptake in the corporate world because
the software is not designed for corporate use. IE, by
contrast, is designed so that sys admins can override all
settings without employees even knowing it. It's designed
specifically to be used by corporate lackeys. That's one of i
ts big selling points and also one of its vulnerabilities.

Configurations and file restrictions have varied broadly
in different Windows versions. Settings have also varied.
It's become uncertain what a person can do without
problems. Aside from writing to a personal App Data folder
or HCKU\Software\ one can't be certain when an action
might succeed or fail. And if it fails Windows will usually
lie about it, using "virtualization" to trick the programmer
into thinking it succeeded! (I actually had to write a
custom function to get the OS version after Microsoft
started lying about that in the official API function.)

I've taken the approach with most of my own software
of saving everything in subfolders in the program folder,
which I set with no restrictions. So I don't have to worry
about the program operations failing and the end user
can easily back up settings if they want to. At the same
time, my method avoids security risks. With small, simple
programs that don't need to be installed I'm likely to use
the Registry for simplicity.
Corporate lackeys and their IT overlords might say my
methods are wrong, but I don't write software for corporate
lackeys. I write it for people who own their computers.

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote

| But for anyone who does work and/or
| uses local software, proper backup involves
| what the techies like to refer to as a "steep
| learning curve".
|
| I just back up the entire disk, don't you? It's not rocket science. Why
do you consider one file more important than another?
|

Because it is. If you need a screwdriver you don't
need to have a pickup truck full of toolboxes. You
just need a screwdriver. There's no sense copying the
same 5 GB of system files every time you back up a
10 KB text file.

I use disk image backup to backup
the OS and software. I back up data separately.
If the system fails I just copy in a disk image,
then copy over files like email and Firefox settings.
That way a failed system doesn't need to risk data
files and backup size is relatively small.
This has been talked about before. People have
different preferences. I've been using disk image
backup since the 90s. To me it's like a tractor
trailer. The OS is the tractor. The data is the cargo.
Those two are separate for good reason.

If you regularly copy your entire disk to a backup
disk that might work OK, but it's an awkward, work-
intensive and unnecessary way to do things. If you're
backing up incrementally to an external disk or RAID
array then the whole shebang is at risk with something
like a power surge or ransomware.

Beyond that, I was really talking about the average
person who maybe edits photos or write Word docs.
They may only have critical data in 3 or 4 places.
If they're not doing a rigorous backup routine then
those files are at risk. Most people don't do a rigorous
backup routine. But if they only knew to back up those
photos and docs they'd be OK. That was the original point:
Personal folders and hidden app data folders are
designed to make life simple for non-techies, but in
the process they also make it nearly impossible for
the average person to copy out their important
data files, or even to know that they should.

On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 03:07:24 -0000, Mayayana wrote:

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote

| history of Windows applications NOT storing user data in the user's
| profile.
|
| That's the fault of the programmer of the application, not of windows.
|

Actually that's a long-running debate. Some people
feel very strongly that settings shouldn't be in the
Registry. Some feel very strongly that they shouldn't
be in program folders. Some people want only "portable
apps". In Win9x most settings were in program folders
if they weren't in the Registry. With XP Microsoft was
standardizing on the corporate workstation model. At
that point Microsoft pretended the App Data folders
were always where program files were supposed to go,
while config could go there or in the Registry.

But they were really rewriting history. In Win9x App
Data folders were mostly unused. They're only there
to accomodate multi-user setups.

Business is Microsoft's main customer and corporate
workstation is the template for NT. But hundreds of
millions of people own their own computer, don't
intentionally have anything like a "user profile", and don't
have multiple users set up on their machines. They
don't know about App Data folders.

You back up your profile and that backs up everything, documents, settings, etc, etc. Not difficult.

Anyway, I back up my whole disk, and so should everybody.

--
Take some good advice: Never try to baptize your cat.

On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 03:23:26 -0000, Mayayana wrote:

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote

| But for anyone who does work and/or
| uses local software, proper backup involves
| what the techies like to refer to as a "steep
| learning curve".
|
| I just back up the entire disk, don't you? It's not rocket science. Why
do you consider one file more important than another?
|

Because it is. If you need a screwdriver you don't
need to have a pickup truck full of toolboxes. You
just need a screwdriver. There's no sense copying the
same 5 GB of system files every time you back up a
10 KB text file.

But you're not doing it by hand, the computer does it for you and doesn't mind backing up the whole drive.

I use disk image backup to backup
the OS and software. I back up data separately.

Why? Just copy the file you want from the main complete backup.

--
You are The One. But not The One. The One who is not The One, but is Another One. But you are that One who is The One who is The Other One who is, in fact, The One. All is lost.