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#1
April 28th 17, 06:28 PM
posted to alt.windows7.general
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Why CAN I delete files marked Read-only without confirmation?
Why am I able to delete files marked Read-only?
I am using Windows 7 Professional, but I think the problem happens with more programs on Windows 10. The problem happens with Standard users and Administrator users on Windows 7 and Windows 10. On Windows XP typically the delete operation fails, but with some programs you are asked if you want to delete the file. On Windows 7 files are deleted without extra warning if you select them on the desktop or in a My Computer window. (Depending on various settings you may be asked to confirm movement to Recycle Bin, but you get the same message if the file is not marked Read-only as when the file is marked Read-only. Some programs, such as Notepad on Windows 7 will not let you replace a Read-only file, even though you own it, which is the same way it worked in Windows XP. However, I think that on Windows 10 some of the programs that work correctly on Windows 7 will delete Read-only files without giving a warning if the process owns the file. 
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#2
April 28th 17, 06:45 PM
posted to alt.windows7.general
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Why CAN I delete files marked Read-only without confirmation?
On 28/04/2017 18:28, Mark F wrote:
Why am I able to delete files marked Read-only? Well if you are not getting a message like the one shown in the attached picture then clearly you have some super natural powers to press the delete button on your computer. Even President Trump is not able to press the nuclear button without the permission of his democrat junkies but you are someone special.!! http://i.imgur.com/mYYL4dm.png http://i.imgur.com/mYYL4dm.png -- With over 500 million devices now running Windows 10, customer satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.
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#3
April 28th 17, 07:03 PM
posted to alt.windows7.general
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Why CAN I delete files marked Read-only without confirmation?
"Good Guy" wrote in message
news 
On 28/04/2017 18:28, Mark F wrote:Why am I able to delete files marked Read-only? Well if you are not getting a message like the one shown in the attached picture then clearly you have some super natural powers to press the delete button on your computer. Even President Trump is not able to press the nuclear button without the permission of his democrat junkies but you are someone special.!! The thought of Trump being allowed within five miles of the Big Red Button, even when his arms are strapped into a straitjacket, scares the **** out of me.
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#4
April 28th 17, 07:27 PM
posted to alt.windows7.general
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Why CAN I delete files marked Read-only without confirmation?
Mark F wrote:
Why am I able to delete files marked Read-only? I am using Windows 7 Professional, but I think the problem happens with more programs on Windows 10. The problem happens with Standard users and Administrator users on Windows 7 and Windows 10. On Windows XP typically the delete operation fails, but with some programs you are asked if you want to delete the file. On Windows 7 files are deleted without extra warning if you select them on the desktop or in a My Computer window. (Depending on various settings you may be asked to confirm movement to Recycle Bin, but you get the same message if the file is not marked Read-only as when the file is marked Read-only. Some programs, such as Notepad on Windows 7 will not let you replace a Read-only file, even though you own it, which is the same way it worked in Windows XP. However, I think that on Windows 10 some of the programs that work correctly on Windows 7 will delete Read-only files without giving a warning if the process owns the file. Read-only is, well, read only permission. You are not reading a file to delete it. If you delete an inuse file, you get notified that the delete is refused. An inuse file lock has nothing to do with the read-only file attribute. Some process still had a handle on the file object so you aren't allowed to delete it until the process releases that handle (there are tools to delete the handle so the file can be deleted). Read-only does not block deletion.
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#5
April 28th 17, 07:41 PM
posted to alt.windows7.general
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Why CAN I delete files marked Read-only without confirmation?
VanguardLH wrote:
Mark F wrote: Why am I able to delete files marked Read-only? I am using Windows 7 Professional, but I think the problem happens with more programs on Windows 10. The problem happens with Standard users and Administrator users on Windows 7 and Windows 10. On Windows XP typically the delete operation fails, but with some programs you are asked if you want to delete the file. On Windows 7 files are deleted without extra warning if you select them on the desktop or in a My Computer window. (Depending on various settings you may be asked to confirm movement to Recycle Bin, but you get the same message if the file is not marked Read-only as when the file is marked Read-only. Some programs, such as Notepad on Windows 7 will not let you replace a Read-only file, even though you own it, which is the same way it worked in Windows XP. However, I think that on Windows 10 some of the programs that work correctly on Windows 7 will delete Read-only files without giving a warning if the process owns the file. Read-only is, well, read only permission. You are not reading a file to delete it. If you delete an inuse file, you get notified that the delete is refused. An inuse file lock has nothing to do with the read-only file attribute. Some process still had a handle on the file object so you aren't allowed to delete it until the process releases that handle (there are tools to delete the handle so the file can be deleted). Read-only does not block deletion. Oops, was thinking programmatically rather than how a particular program is coded to behave. Whether a particular *program* lets you delete a read-only flagged file depends on how that program was coded. In Windows 7, the 'dir' command (ran in a command shell) will not delete a read-only file as a safety net unless you add the /f (force) switch. Run 'dir /?' to get help. However, if I use Windows Explorer, it will delete a read-only file without error and without prompt. Depends on how the program is coded. I don't have Windows XP around to see what command-line switches are available for the 'dir' command, or to test the behavior of the code for any programs bundled with that version of Windows or what you might install there.
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#6
April 28th 17, 10:00 PM
posted to alt.windows7.general
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Why CAN I delete files marked Read-only without confirmation?
On Fri, 28 Apr 2017 19:03:21 +0100, NY wrote:
"Good Guy" wrote in message news
On 28/04/2017 18:28, Mark F wrote:Why am I able to delete files marked Read-only? Well if you are not getting a message like the one shown in the attached picture then clearly you have some super natural powers to press the delete button on your computer. Even President Trump is not able to press the nuclear button without the permission of his democrat junkies but you are someone special.!! The thought of Trump being allowed within five miles of the Big Red Button, even when his arms are strapped into a straitjacket, scares the **** out of me. Then go to your safe place and light a candle. -- Wildman GNU/Linux user #557453 The cow died so I don't need your bull!
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#7
April 28th 17, 10:07 PM
posted to alt.windows7.general
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Why CAN I delete files marked Read-only without confirmation?
On 28.04.17 23:03, Wildman wrote:
On Fri, 28 Apr 2017 13:41:58 -0500, VanguardLH wrote: VanguardLH wrote: Mark F wrote: Why am I able to delete files marked Read-only? I am using Windows 7 Professional, but I think the problem happens with more programs on Windows 10. The problem happens with Standard users and Administrator users on Windows 7 and Windows 10. On Windows XP typically the delete operation fails, but with some programs you are asked if you want to delete the file. On Windows 7 files are deleted without extra warning if you select them on the desktop or in a My Computer window. (Depending on various settings you may be asked to confirm movement to Recycle Bin, but you get the same message if the file is not marked Read-only as when the file is marked Read-only. Some programs, such as Notepad on Windows 7 will not let you replace a Read-only file, even though you own it, which is the same way it worked in Windows XP. However, I think that on Windows 10 some of the programs that work correctly on Windows 7 will delete Read-only files without giving a warning if the process owns the file. Read-only is, well, read only permission. You are not reading a file to delete it. If you delete an inuse file, you get notified that the delete is refused. An inuse file lock has nothing to do with the read-only file attribute. Some process still had a handle on the file object so you aren't allowed to delete it until the process releases that handle (there are tools to delete the handle so the file can be deleted). Read-only does not block deletion. Oops, was thinking programmatically rather than how a particular program is coded to behave. Whether a particular *program* lets you delete a read-only flagged file depends on how that program was coded. In Windows 7, the 'dir' command (ran in a command shell) will not delete a read-only file as a safety net unless you add the /f (force) switch. Run 'dir /?' to get help. However, if I use Windows Explorer, it will delete a read-only file without error and without prompt. Depends on how the program is coded. I don't have Windows XP around to see what command-line switches are available for the 'dir' command, or to test the behavior of the code for any programs bundled with that version of Windows or what you might install there. I never knew you could delete a file using 'dir'. ++++++1 
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#8
April 28th 17, 10:23 PM
posted to alt.windows7.general
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Why CAN I delete files marked Read-only without confirmation?
Mark F wrote:
Why am I able to delete files marked Read-only? I am using Windows 7 Professional, but I think the problem happens with more programs on Windows 10. The problem happens with Standard users and Administrator users on Windows 7 and Windows 10. On Windows XP typically the delete operation fails, but with some programs you are asked if you want to delete the file. On Windows 7 files are deleted without extra warning if you select them on the desktop or in a My Computer window. (Depending on various settings you may be asked to confirm movement to Recycle Bin, but you get the same message if the file is not marked Read-only as when the file is marked Read-only. Some programs, such as Notepad on Windows 7 will not let you replace a Read-only file, even though you own it, which is the same way it worked in Windows XP. However, I think that on Windows 10 some of the programs that work correctly on Windows 7 will delete Read-only files without giving a warning if the process owns the file. File systems are fun. Let's look at some of the sources of that fun. ******* File attributes can be read with fsutil usn readdata Y:\Windows\Logs\CBS\CBS.log Constants - the following attribute values are returned by the GetFileAttributes function: FILE_ATTRIBUTE_READONLY = 1 (0x1) ---- FILE_ATTRIBUTE_HIDDEN = 2 (0x2) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_SYSTEM = 4 (0x4) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_DIRECTORY = 16 (0x10) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_ARCHIVE = 32 (0x20) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_NORMAL = 128 (0x80) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_TEMPORARY = 256 (0x100) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_SPARSE_FILE = 512 (0x200) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_REPARSE_POINT = 1024 (0x400) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_COMPRESSED = 2048 (0x800) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_OFFLINE = 4096 (0x1000) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_NOT_CONTENT_INDEXED = 8192 (0x2000) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_ENCRYPTED = 16384 (0x4000) On directories, the READONLY bit is "overloaded". It doesn't actually mean READONLY. It means "this folder has a customized view". The Compressed attribute is important, because when the file system reads the file, it needs to apply the appropriate decompression algorithm. If you damaged the Compressed bit, garbage would come out of the file. ******* Attributes are separate from permissions. Use "Properties" on an item and look at the security tab. The security tab plays a part in deletion. ******* For file locking, there are "advisory" and "mandatory" file locks. A program can assert some flavor of lock when opening a file. (I'm not going to look up the details of whether Windows supports one of both of those. Win2K and roaming profiles took the cake for trouble with locks!) To see an example of a program that doesn't use locks at all, try Notepad. Open a file with notepad (so you can see the text). Flip over to File Explorer, delete the file. Notepad does not mind in the least. Doing a "Save" from Notepad, puts it back. Tossing the freshly saved file in the trash, Notepad doesn't mind in the least. It's not a given that programs assert some sort of lock, and Notepad is a poster child for this. Programs can also put a .lck file in a folder, but this is for their own usage, so they won't attempt to open the same file twice. In addition to this, programs have the option to have a particular behavior when VSS quiesces a volume. Which is yet another issue (I won't bother to look up). ******* At a guess, the most likely thing to break an attempt to delete is "ownership permissions". Changing the permissions using the Security tab, might be all it needs. Note that permissions in the Security tab can be "inherited" from permissions "above" the item. Permissions also include Allow and Deny capabilities. It is best practice to never use Deny in a permission chain. The end result is, it can be practically impossible for an "ordinary" user to figure out why something won't delete :-) I've had cases where I've spent an hour on this stuff, and not been able to figure out what permission is "stuffed". Have fun, Paul
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#9
April 29th 17, 02:11 AM
posted to alt.windows7.general
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Why CAN I delete files marked Read-only without confirmation?
Wildman wrote:
On Fri, 28 Apr 2017 13:41:58 -0500, VanguardLH wrote: VanguardLH wrote: Mark F wrote: Why am I able to delete files marked Read-only? I am using Windows 7 Professional, but I think the problem happens with more programs on Windows 10. The problem happens with Standard users and Administrator users on Windows 7 and Windows 10. On Windows XP typically the delete operation fails, but with some programs you are asked if you want to delete the file. On Windows 7 files are deleted without extra warning if you select them on the desktop or in a My Computer window. (Depending on various settings you may be asked to confirm movement to Recycle Bin, but you get the same message if the file is not marked Read-only as when the file is marked Read-only. Some programs, such as Notepad on Windows 7 will not let you replace a Read-only file, even though you own it, which is the same way it worked in Windows XP. However, I think that on Windows 10 some of the programs that work correctly on Windows 7 will delete Read-only files without giving a warning if the process owns the file. Read-only is, well, read only permission. You are not reading a file to delete it. If you delete an inuse file, you get notified that the delete is refused. An inuse file lock has nothing to do with the read-only file attribute. Some process still had a handle on the file object so you aren't allowed to delete it until the process releases that handle (there are tools to delete the handle so the file can be deleted). Read-only does not block deletion. Oops, was thinking programmatically rather than how a particular program is coded to behave. Whether a particular *program* lets you delete a read-only flagged file depends on how that program was coded. In Windows 7, the 'dir' command (ran in a command shell) will not delete a read-only file as a safety net unless you add the /f (force) switch. Run 'dir /?' to get help. However, if I use Windows Explorer, it will delete a read-only file without error and without prompt. Depends on how the program is coded. I don't have Windows XP around to see what command-line switches are available for the 'dir' command, or to test the behavior of the code for any programs bundled with that version of Windows or what you might install there. I never knew you could delete a file using 'dir'. Yeah, blunder. Should be 'del'. Don't why my fingers got stuck on typing 'dir' when I told them to type 'del'. Now to wash the egg off my face.
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#10
April 29th 17, 02:59 AM
posted to alt.windows7.general
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Why CAN I delete files marked Read-only without confirmation?
On 2017-04-28 13:28, Mark F wrote:
Why am I able to delete files marked Read-only? I am using Windows 7 Professional, but I think the problem happens with more programs on Windows 10. The problem happens with Standard users and Administrator users on Windows 7 and Windows 10. On Windows XP typically the delete operation fails, but with some programs you are asked if you want to delete the file. On Windows 7 files are deleted without extra warning if you select them on the desktop or in a My Computer window. (Depending on various settings you may be asked to confirm movement to Recycle Bin, but you get the same message if the file is not marked Read-only as when the file is marked Read-only. Some programs, such as Notepad on Windows 7 will not let you replace a Read-only file, even though you own it, which is the same way it worked in Windows XP. However, I think that on Windows 10 some of the programs that work correctly on Windows 7 will delete Read-only files without giving a warning if the process owns the file. I'm not sure if the behaviour has changed but in my opinion, if it HAS changed and we no longer get a warning when deleting a ReadOnly file then that is a GOOD thing! Try deleting a folder with all kinds of files inside --- "Are you sure? It's Read Only," "Are you sure? It's system," "Are you sure? It is Monday," "Are you sure..." --- Freaking pain in the behind. Regards, -- ! _\|/_ Sylvain / ! (o o) Member  avid-Suzuki-Fdn/EFF/Red+Cross/SPCA/Planetary-SocietyoO-( )-Oo "This guy's beginning to crisp my cape." -Darkwing
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#11
April 29th 17, 05:11 AM
posted to alt.windows7.general
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Why CAN I delete files marked Read-only without confirmation?
On 04/28/2017 08:59 PM, B00ze wrote:
[snip] I'm not sure if the behaviour has changed but in my opinion, if it HAS changed and we no longer get a warning when deleting a ReadOnly file then that is a GOOD thing! Try deleting a folder with all kinds of files inside --- "Are you sure? It's Read Only," "Are you sure? It's system," "Are you sure? It is Monday," "Are you sure..." --- Freaking pain in the behind. Regards, "Are you sure?" on a delete is NOT just as good as having an undelete command. With "Are you sure?", responding to that becomes part of the delete process rather than a separate "stop and think" point. I remember a command-driven editor, where the normal end command was 'E' (save file and exit). There was also the 'Q' command (exit without saving). 'Q' was followed by "Are you sure? (Y/N). I hadn't used it long before I learned that the quit command was really 'QY', and so got no benefit from "Are you sure?". That was keyboard. The same holds true for the mouse. It's TWO clicks to delete a file. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ "Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense." Robert A. Heinlein. Contributed by Larry Reyka.
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#12
April 29th 17, 09:22 AM
posted to alt.windows7.general
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Why CAN I delete files marked Read-only without confirmation?
I cant believe u people with all this crazy use the dos stuff.
Or even the silly w explorer.... Just use this.... Its so much easier than to worry about any of that read only thing or whether its released its handle, or even if you not in the right path, It works always, with none of the worry hassel of when do I do it? Smart File Delete. Tiny little program that gets rid of it....put the icon on dsktp. And just about all of this guys stuff, is more than worth having. http://www.novirusthanks.org/ On 4/28/2017 6:11 PM, VanguardLH scribbled: wrote: On Fri, 28 Apr 2017 13:41:58 -0500, VanguardLH wrote: wrote: Mark wrote: Why am I able to delete files marked Read-only? I am using Windows 7 Professional, but I think the problem happens with more programs on Windows 10. The problem happens with Standard users and Administrator users on Windows 7 and Windows 10. On Windows XP typically the delete operation fails, but with some programs you are asked if you want to delete the file. On Windows 7 files are deleted without extra warning if you select them on the desktop or in a My Computer window. (Depending on various settings you may be asked to confirm movement to Recycle Bin, but you get the same message if the file is not marked Read-only as when the file is marked Read-only. Some programs, such as Notepad on Windows 7 will not let you replace a Read-only file, even though you own it, which is the same way it worked in Windows XP. However, I think that on Windows 10 some of the programs that work correctly on Windows 7 will delete Read-only files without giving a warning if the process owns the file. Read-only is, well, read only permission. You are not reading a file to delete it. If you delete an inuse file, you get notified that the delete is refused. An inuse file lock has nothing to do with the read-only file attribute. Some process still had a handle on the file object so you aren't allowed to delete it until the process releases that handle (there are tools to delete the handle so the file can be deleted). Read-only does not block deletion. Oops, was thinking programmatically rather than how a particular program is coded to behave. Whether a particular *program* lets you delete a read-only flagged file depends on how that program was coded. In Windows 7, the 'dir' command (ran in a command shell) will not delete a read-only file as a safety net unless you add the /f (force) switch. Run 'dir /?' to get help. However, if I use Windows Explorer, it will delete a read-only file without error and without prompt. Depends on how the program is coded. I don't have Windows XP around to see what command-line switches are available for the 'dir' command, or to test the behavior of the code for any programs bundled with that version of Windows or what you might install there. I never knew you could delete a file using 'dir'. Yeah, blunder. Should be 'del'. Don't why my fingers got stuck on typing 'dir' when I told them to type 'del'. Now to wash the egg off my face.
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#13
April 29th 17, 11:56 AM
posted to alt.windows7.general
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Why CAN I delete files marked Read-only without confirmation?
In message , Paul
writes: [] File systems are fun. I wouldn't go _that_ far! Interesting, _sometimes_. (-: Let's look at some of the sources of that fun. ******* File attributes can be read with fsutil usn readdata Y:\Windows\Logs\CBS\CBS.log Constants - the following attribute values are returned by the GetFileAttributes function: FILE_ATTRIBUTE_READONLY = 1 (0x1) ---- FILE_ATTRIBUTE_HIDDEN = 2 (0x2) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_SYSTEM = 4 (0x4) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_DIRECTORY = 16 (0x10) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_ARCHIVE = 32 (0x20) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_NORMAL = 128 (0x80) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_TEMPORARY = 256 (0x100) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_SPARSE_FILE = 512 (0x200) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_REPARSE_POINT = 1024 (0x400) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_COMPRESSED = 2048 (0x800) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_OFFLINE = 4096 (0x1000) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_NOT_CONTENT_INDEXED = 8192 (0x2000) FILE_ATTRIBUTE_ENCRYPTED = 16384 (0x4000) Ah, takes me back, to the old drwxrwxrwxrwx string in UNIX (and I do mean UNIX ["a property of Bell laboratories"] not Linux, though I'm sure the latter uses it too). The pedant/cat in me can't help wondering, on seeing the above table, what is signified by the bits (they must be bits in something) corresponding to 8 (0x8) and 64 (0x40)! [And possibly 32768 (0x8000), though that could be a sign bit - though I see no reason for it to be signed.] On directories, the READONLY bit is "overloaded". It doesn't actually mean READONLY. It means "this folder has a customized view". So a directory can't be made read-only? The Compressed attribute is important, because when the file system reads the file, it needs to apply the appropriate decompression algorithm. If you damaged the Compressed bit, garbage would come out of the file. Ah, so that (bit)'s what makes it easy for Explorer to display such files in a different colour (-:. [] -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf "quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur". ("Anything is more impressive if you say it in Latin")
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#14
April 29th 17, 11:58 AM
posted to alt.windows7.general
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Why CAN I delete files marked Read-only without confirmation?
In message , B00ze
writes: [] I'm not sure if the behaviour has changed but in my opinion, if it HAS changed and we no longer get a warning when deleting a ReadOnly file then that is a GOOD thing! Try deleting a folder with all kinds of files inside --- "Are you sure? It's Read Only," "Are you sure? It's system," "Are you sure? It is Monday," "Are you sure..." --- Freaking pain in the behind. They are of course there for a reason. And in W7 (and presumably beyond), you at least have the "do this for all remaining similar items" tickbox. Regards, -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf "quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur". ("Anything is more impressive if you say it in Latin")
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#15
April 29th 17, 08:21 PM
posted to alt.windows7.general
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Why CAN I delete files marked Read-only without confirmation?
tesla sTinker wrote:
I cant believe u people with all this crazy use the dos stuff. Or even the silly w explorer.... Just use this.... Its so much easier than to worry about any of that read only thing or whether its released its handle, or even if you not in the right path, It works always, with none of the worry hassel of when do I do it? Smart File Delete. Tiny little program that gets rid of it....put the icon on dsktp. And just about all of this guys stuff, is more than worth having. h**p:// www. novirusthanks. org/ I don't add more software when what is already available does work. 'dir' works. So does Windows Explorer. Don't need more software.
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