Will us elders soon be computerless?

I'm elderly, and I started with computers back when DOS was the only OS
for the PC. I used to be ahead of most people in computer knowledge, and
could do most anything with both the hardware and with Dos, and later in
with the earlier versions of Windows.

Around the time they introduced XP, I began falling off the bandwagon
for trying to keep up. First off, I found XP was bloated, and had become
far too user unfriendly for my needs, and difficult to eliminate all the
excess crap it contained.

I was happy with Win98, and stuck with it for years, until long after XP
was introduced, I began using Win2000, which eventually got me a little
closer to XP, which I finally accepted, installed on a spare computer,
but rarely used.

These days I use XP mostly for web browsing, but still prefer my Win98
computer for offline creativity, and it's still my "MAIN" computer. But
Win98 does not support any web browsers that work properly anymore.

XP had been dead for a year now, and some software will no longer run on
XP including ome of the latest browsers. I forsee XP becoming like Win98
is a few years, whereas it wont support newer web browsers.

Actually, for 90% of my computing needs, Win98 is all I need and I still
like it best. I actually believe that the web developers are the ones
who are kissing butt to Microsoft, and thus causing us to keep on the MS
upgrade bandwagon.

I'm sorry, but I did not buy a computer to have to keep upgrading and
relearning it. I have a life, and computers are not my reason to exist.
They are just a tool to (supposedly) make life easier. However I no
longer agree with that. But they are still a handy way to refernce info
without having to drive to the library, and a much easier way to store
photos and music and type letters and contact friends by email, rather
than using the mailbox.

Providing I live long enough for XP to no longer allow me to connect to
the internet (like Win98 does now), what else will there be? I
absolutely refuse to use any version of Windows newer than XP. I dont
need or want more bloat, and I'm too old to relearn yet another OS. The
bottom line is "I JUST WANT TO USE MY COMPUTER, NOT BE FORCED TO LEARN
IT OVER AND OVER". The "thrill" of trying new software is gone. In my
last years in this life, I want to do other things, not be stuck behind
a keyboard and feeling frustrated.

I'm sure I'm not alone in this. What are older elders doing? I dont want
MS's newer bloatware. In fact I heard that Windows 10 is going to
require monthly RENT payments to use their OS, or is that for MS Office?
The day that happens, is the day I throw my computers in the garbage,
and go back to using books, film cameras, vinyl albums, and typewriters.

I'm looking at the options. I have tried Linux, and know 100% that I
will never use it. I have installed (What was said to be) the most
simple and basic Linux OS available, but the moment it did not work, and
I asked for help, I was told I had to use that NIGHTMARE called the
"command line". Which meant "delete Linux". Linux is for the computer
geeks, who have no life except their computer. That's not me.....

It appears that MS is making no attempt to develop a simple OS, or to
ever go back to supporting their older OSs. So, woth MS and Linux out of
the picture, there is nothing left. Yea, I keep hearing about some
"other" OS under development, but that appears to just be talk.

The only thing else I see, is buying a Macintosh computer and seeing if
I can learn to use it fairly easily. The only other option appears to be
these Android cellphones that connect to the internet. But those
screens are far too small for my old eyes. However, I believe there is
some way to connect them to a regular computer monitor, and hopefully
just connect the phone to an entire computer, because I need a REAL
keyboard, not those tiny buttons.

If none of this works, I guess us elders will just be forced to stop
using computers and go back to the technology that existed at the time
we were born, namely typewriters, rotary phones, books, vinyl albums and
film cameras.

Microsoft has left us in the dark, yet WE are the people who created
their wealth in the beginning!

Per :
I'm sure I'm not alone in this. What are older elders doing? I dont want
MS's newer bloatware.

I still run XP on what I consider tb non-critical machines.

Windows 7 on my 24-7 PC.

8.1 on my ZenBook laptop - mainly because 7 was not available.

I'll probably be dead by the time MS withdraws support for 7 in 2020,
ditto 8 in 2023. FWIW, 8 is livable once one installs a $5 utility
called "Start" - which gets you back to a Start menu and easy access to
the desktop that I find pretty much the same as XP once I select
"Classic" mode.
--
Pete Cresswell

On Sun, 05 Apr 2015 15:45:06 -0500, wrote:


If none of this works, I guess us elders will just be forced to stop
using computers


Each to his own, of course, but I'm possibly older than you (I'm 77)
and my views are almost the complete opposite of yours. I've used
almost every version of Windows since 2.0 and have never had any
difficult moving to the newer ones. And I've liked almost every
version better than its predecessor. I use and like Widows 8 now.


and go back to the technology that existed at the time
we were born, namely typewriters,


Yuck! Never--not if I have a choice.


rotary phones,


I prefer push-button, but I don't care very much.


books,


I own many, and read them and others from the library all the time. No
problem (although I also read Kindle books).



vinyl albums


I own several hundred and still regularly listen to them, although I
also own and listen to CDs.


and film cameras.


Another yuck! Digital photography is *much* better.


Microsoft has left us in the dark,


To repeat what my message started with, I completely disagree.


... yet WE are the people who created
their wealth in the beginning!


And one more disagreement.

I agree with much of what you've said. I still use XP
and have no plan to change. But I also write software,
so I had to learn about Vista/7. I spent about 2 weeks
exploring and got to where I could make do with Win7
if I have to.

Aside from that.... yes, MS is going toward rental. A lot
of software is going toward service. Linux is still a half-
finished kit that gets updated regularly while support ends
for the last version. Windows has *by far* the best backward
compatibility.

I'm not so sure that web developers are pushing change.
I think it's more corporate commercialism. Google, especially,
likes to phase out browser support because they want to
do the latest, interactive webpage functionality. Their pages,
and many other corporate pages, are now essentially spyware
software programs, weighing in at 2-3 MB. If webpages are
commercial services then browsers must handle the new
functionality. The Mozilla people are a Google lapdog, having
got almost all their money from Google. (And now from Yahoo.)
So they also have little motivation to support what people
need and want. They're following the money.

I think the changes online -- from "information highway"
to spyware eShopping with targetted ads -- and changes
in software to promote rental, are perhaps more of a problem
going forward than the actual software and OSs. Even the
Linux distributions are becoming like services. You need to
use console to get things done, yet at the same time it's
increasingly difficult to get around restrictions and the OS
wants to update itself. I guess the future depends in large
part on how many people care -- how much market there
is for private computers with software tools, as opposed
to swipe-and-smudge shopping devices.

It's very unique in some ways. The people who know
tech are, in large part, an exceedingly arrogant group
who think that no one else wants functionality: If you
don't want to go console then you must be an idiot who
just wants to click "Buy" buttons. At the same time, there's
a great deal of corporate interest in taking ownership and
access away from the individual. Additionally, security
problems dovetail with both of those patterns: The less
you can do with your device the safer you'll be. There isn't
really any matching force going in the other direction, toward
empowerment of citizens to have tools and information,
rather than disempowerment and herding of "consumers".
But it's really up to us. The heads of Apple and Google
are also those disempowered "consumers" when they go
home. If people follow the guidance of the Tim Cooks and
the Eric Schmidts they have no reason to be surprised to
find themselves shortchanged and exploited.

| Each to his own, of course, but I'm possibly older than you (I'm 77)
| and my views are almost the complete opposite of yours. I've used
| almost every version of Windows since 2.0 and have never had any
| difficult moving to the newer ones. And I've liked almost every
| version better than its predecessor. I use and like Widows 8 now.
|

Then again, as an MS MVP you don't really have
any choice in the matter. If you didn't "like" Win8
you wouldn't be an MVP.

On Sun, 5 Apr 2015 17:41:27 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:

I agree with much of what you've said. I still use XP
and have no plan to change. But I also write software,
so I had to learn about Vista/7. I spent about 2 weeks
exploring and got to where I could make do with Win7
if I have to.

If I didn't have to buy it, I'd probably TRY Win7. But I wont pay for
it, knowing I will not likely like it. I know it wont run on most of my
older computers, but I do have one newer one, which does nothing but use
space in my closet, because I cant get Win98 drivers for it.

Windows 8, I would not touch with a 10 foot pole with someone elses
computer on the end....

Like I said, I still like Win98 the best, and although I forced myself
to use XP, I never liked it all that much, and still dont. I'm using
Win98 right now. But for usenet and email, it works fine.

Aside from that.... yes, MS is going toward rental. A lot
of software is going toward service. Linux is still a half-
finished kit that gets updated regularly while support ends
for the last version. Windows has *by far* the best backward
compatibility.

Aside from the WEB, my old Win98 macgine does everything I need as far
as office type apps, editing photos and music, playing videos, and much
more. My XP machine can do all of that fine too.

But rental software and all of that is not going to happen here. I'll
make do with my old computers, or not use them at all. But I know both
Win98 and XP will work to play music and videos for a long time, and by
then, I'll be too senile to give a ****, or dead.

snip


I think the changes online -- from "information highway"
to spyware eShopping with targetted ads -- and changes
in software to promote rental, are perhaps more of a problem
going forward than the actual software and OSs. Even the
Linux distributions are becoming like services. You need to
use console to get things done, yet at the same time it's
increasingly difficult to get around restrictions and the OS
wants to update itself. I guess the future depends in large
part on how many people care -- how much market there
is for private computers with software tools, as opposed
to swipe-and-smudge shopping devices.

I think the web is becoming a piece of ****. Because I live in the rural
area, I can only get dialup internet. It takes forever to load websites
now. But aside from a little ebay shopping amd using Wikipedia for soem
information, I dont use much of it anymore. Sometimes I take my laptop
to McDonalds and watch some videos, and use Download helper to save the
ones I like. But that too will probably end soon. Youtube now restricts
many videos from being downloaded.

It's very unique in some ways. The people who know
tech are, in large part, an exceedingly arrogant group
who think that no one else wants functionality: If you
don't want to go console then you must be an idiot who

That's part of the biggest problem with Linux. Not to insult anyone, but
I have found that Linux users are some of the rudest assholes I have
ever talked to (online). Not all of them, there have been a few who
really tried to help, but they were so advances and over my head, I
could only say "Thank You", but not have a clue what they were talking
about.

just wants to click "Buy" buttons. At the same time, there's
a great deal of corporate interest in taking ownership and
access away from the individual. Additionally, security

snip

That's the whole problem, the web has become nothing but a
commercialized nightmare, not to mention all the spyware and tracking of
people. I still use the newsgroups, because they load fast (on dialup),
but also because I refuse to use Facebook, Twitter, and all those sites
which track people as well as bombard them with useless trash. That
seems to be the trend for almost the whole web now. Fortunately I can
still use Ebay without problems, except for the slowness, ebay still
works fine. And aside from shopping ebay for items I cant get in stores,
like parts for my really old tractors, I dont have any intention to shop
online for stuff I can buy in a actual store. Even if the prices are a
little cheaper online, I like to see, feel, and get it today.....

And yea, I do agree that Google is horrid! Every website that annoys me
with "your browser is too old" messages, is owned by Google, except
Ebay. But ebay still works, it just tries to **** me off with that
annoying message!

I know this is an Microsoft and an XP newsgroup, but I'd like an honest
answer. Would I do better buying a Macintosh? Are they doing the same
crap that MS is doing? I'm seriously considering picking up an older
Mac machine from Ebay and giving it a try. I'd still keep my Win98 and
XP macghines, but for the web, maybe Mac is the way to go???? I dont
know???? What I do know, is that I got "off the bus" when XP became
obsolete, and I have no intention to go any further with Windows. That's
why, before I was to spend one cent on Win7, I'd rather spend the money
on Mac, if there is some hope of being able to use it, and the same is
true as far as relearning a new OS. I dont want to waste my time
relearning Win7, knowing it's the end of the MS road for me. I'd rather
spend my time learning a Mac (which I actually did use a Mac back around
1995 to 98, in a job I had at the time). So, I have a little knowledge
about the Mac., even if that is like comparing Windows 8 to Windows 98.

On Sun, 5 Apr 2015 18:39:18 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| Each to his own, of course, but I'm possibly older than you (I'm 77)
| and my views are almost the complete opposite of yours. I've used
| almost every version of Windows since 2.0 and have never had any
| difficult moving to the newer ones. And I've liked almost every
| version better than its predecessor. I use and like Widows 8 now.
|

Then again, as an MS MVP you don't really have
any choice in the matter. If you didn't "like" Win8
you wouldn't be an MVP.


Not at all true. Like all Microsoft MVPs, I am free to have my own
likes and dislikes, and I not forced to like any Microsoft products
even in the slightest, nor am I ever taken to task for expressing my
preferences for competing products.

As an example, I think WordPerfect is a much better word processor
than Microsoft Word, and I've said so many times, here in the
newsgroups, on the Microsoft web-based forums, and even to Microsoft
employees on the campus in Redmond.

I also think that Internet Explorer is poorer than either Maxthon
(which I used until a couple of weeks ago) or Firefox (which I now
use), and that Quicken was always better than Microsoft Money, and
I've similarly expressed my views on those too.

And I think that Chess Titans plays Chess poorly and is easy to beat,
and that Fritz and Rybka are much better. And I've often said that in
the Microsoft forums.

Those are just a few examples that quickly come to mind. There are
many others.

As far as I'm concerned, many Microsoft products are the best of their
kind; others are not. I think that, like all other companies,
Microsoft does some things well, some things badly, and some in
between. And I don't bite my tongue because I'm an MVP; I always
express my views. If Microsoft didn't permit me to, I would not accept
my MVP award.

And by the way, although *I* like Windows 8, I know many other MVPs
who think it's terrible, and say so.

wrote:
On Sun, 5 Apr 2015 17:41:27 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:

I agree with much of what you've said. I still use XP
and have no plan to change. But I also write software,
so I had to learn about Vista/7. I spent about 2 weeks
exploring and got to where I could make do with Win7
if I have to.

If I didn't have to buy it, I'd probably TRY Win7. But I wont pay for
it, knowing I will not likely like it. I know it wont run on most of my
older computers, but I do have one newer one, which does nothing but use
space in my closet, because I cant get Win98 drivers for it.

Windows 8, I would not touch with a 10 foot pole with someone elses
computer on the end....

Like I said, I still like Win98 the best, and although I forced myself
to use XP, I never liked it all that much, and still dont. I'm using
Win98 right now. But for usenet and email, it works fine.

Aside from that.... yes, MS is going toward rental. A lot
of software is going toward service. Linux is still a half-
finished kit that gets updated regularly while support ends
for the last version. Windows has *by far* the best backward
compatibility.

Aside from the WEB, my old Win98 macgine does everything I need as far
as office type apps, editing photos and music, playing videos, and much
more. My XP machine can do all of that fine too.

But rental software and all of that is not going to happen here. I'll
make do with my old computers, or not use them at all. But I know both
Win98 and XP will work to play music and videos for a long time, and by
then, I'll be too senile to give a ****, or dead.
snip

I think the changes online -- from "information highway"
to spyware eShopping with targetted ads -- and changes
in software to promote rental, are perhaps more of a problem
going forward than the actual software and OSs. Even the
Linux distributions are becoming like services. You need to
use console to get things done, yet at the same time it's
increasingly difficult to get around restrictions and the OS
wants to update itself. I guess the future depends in large
part on how many people care -- how much market there
is for private computers with software tools, as opposed
to swipe-and-smudge shopping devices.

I think the web is becoming a piece of ****. Because I live in the rural
area, I can only get dialup internet. It takes forever to load websites
now. But aside from a little ebay shopping amd using Wikipedia for soem
information, I dont use much of it anymore. Sometimes I take my laptop
to McDonalds and watch some videos, and use Download helper to save the
ones I like. But that too will probably end soon. Youtube now restricts
many videos from being downloaded.

It's very unique in some ways. The people who know
tech are, in large part, an exceedingly arrogant group
who think that no one else wants functionality: If you
don't want to go console then you must be an idiot who

That's part of the biggest problem with Linux. Not to insult anyone, but
I have found that Linux users are some of the rudest assholes I have
ever talked to (online). Not all of them, there have been a few who
really tried to help, but they were so advances and over my head, I
could only say "Thank You", but not have a clue what they were talking
about.

just wants to click "Buy" buttons. At the same time, there's
a great deal of corporate interest in taking ownership and
access away from the individual. Additionally, security

snip

That's the whole problem, the web has become nothing but a
commercialized nightmare, not to mention all the spyware and tracking of
people. I still use the newsgroups, because they load fast (on dialup),
but also because I refuse to use Facebook, Twitter, and all those sites
which track people as well as bombard them with useless trash. That
seems to be the trend for almost the whole web now. Fortunately I can
still use Ebay without problems, except for the slowness, ebay still
works fine. And aside from shopping ebay for items I cant get in stores,
like parts for my really old tractors, I dont have any intention to shop
online for stuff I can buy in a actual store. Even if the prices are a
little cheaper online, I like to see, feel, and get it today.....

And yea, I do agree that Google is horrid! Every website that annoys me
with "your browser is too old" messages, is owned by Google, except
Ebay. But ebay still works, it just tries to **** me off with that
annoying message!

I know this is an Microsoft and an XP newsgroup, but I'd like an honest
answer. Would I do better buying a Macintosh? Are they doing the same
crap that MS is doing? I'm seriously considering picking up an older
Mac machine from Ebay and giving it a try. I'd still keep my Win98 and
XP macghines, but for the web, maybe Mac is the way to go???? I dont
know???? What I do know, is that I got "off the bus" when XP became
obsolete, and I have no intention to go any further with Windows. That's
why, before I was to spend one cent on Win7, I'd rather spend the money
on Mac, if there is some hope of being able to use it, and the same is
true as far as relearning a new OS. I dont want to waste my time
relearning Win7, knowing it's the end of the MS road for me. I'd rather
spend my time learning a Mac (which I actually did use a Mac back around
1995 to 98, in a job I had at the time). So, I have a little knowledge
about the Mac., even if that is like comparing Windows 8 to Windows 98.

If you combine your Windows 7 installation, with a copy of
Classic Shell or similar (free) "theme correction software".
You can make Windows 7 a bit more to your liking and taste.

http://www.classicshell.net/

You have various options for a start menu.

http://www.classicshell.net/images/startmenu1.png

The topic of "fixing" Windows is a popular one, as
you can see in this Wikipedia article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...or_Windows_ 8

*******

And as for "Taste Testing".

You'd a WinXP user. You have a computer with one hard drive.

Steps:

1) Run off to the store, and pick up a small hard drive.
Maybe in the $60 range or so.
2) Take it home. Put it in the target machine.
Remove any drives with important data on them
(like the WinXP drive).
3) Insert Windows 7 DVD and boot the computer.
4) Start the installation process.
5) This is the important part. *Don't* enter the license key
that came in the package. The installation will proceed
even if the Windows 7 key box is blank.
6) You have a short time, like 30 days, to test your new
OS installation. Install Classic Shell. If you don't
like any of it, you can reinstall (blow away the previous
install).
7) If you're happy, you can find a command line thing to
have the OS request the real license key, carry out
activation and so on.

Many people take their $110 purchase and "blow the key"
right away. And then are concerned with some detail
of what they've done. Don't be in a rush. Install
with no key, test for several days, if you're happy
with it, find a recipe on the web for whatever command
brings up the key input prompt ("SLUI 3" ?). The
slmgr command also has a bunch of different command
line arguments, and is also a way to get the key
input box to appear.

Windows 8/8.1, do not allow getting past the license
key prompt. For them, there are some "Install Only"
keys you can use. But since you're not planning on
installing Windows 8, I won't bother to copy/paste those.
When I installed Windows 8.1 on the test machine,
I used the Install Only key for the initial installation,
then installed the paid key when I was happy with the
results.

By using techniques like this, the idea is, to only
use the license key, when you're "happy" with the
results. And not before.

Installing an OS, you need drivers. I put Win7 as a
test install on the test machine a few days ago (to
debug Avast problems), and forgot about the
importance of drivers. The screen was the wrong
resolution, and I needed to find my ATI driver
disc to fix up the video card :-) So there's
a few steps along the way to be done, before
the installation is complete. Make sure you
have a nice set of drivers collected for the
hardware, to deal with any surprises. For example,
my NIC didn't work in Windows 7, until I found
my Asus motherboard CD. Otherwise, it would have
meant a visit to downloadcenter.intel.com, in advance
of doing my Win7 install. I know I have enough discs
of stuff here for that machine, I can get it on the
internet and finish the job. So I had to get the
NIC working first, to be able to do any actual
testing :-)

Paul

On Sun, 05 Apr 2015 19:32:19 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP"
wrote:

Not at all true. Like all Microsoft MVPs, I am free to have my own
likes and dislikes, and I not forced to like any Microsoft products
even in the slightest, nor am I ever taken to task for expressing my
preferences for competing products.

As an example, I think WordPerfect is a much better word processor
than Microsoft Word, and I've said so many times, here in the
newsgroups, on the Microsoft web-based forums, and even to Microsoft
employees on the campus in Redmond.

I also think that Internet Explorer is poorer than either Maxthon
(which I used until a couple of weeks ago) or Firefox (which I now
use), and that Quicken was always better than Microsoft Money, and
I've similarly expressed my views on those too.

In football, MVP means "Most Valuable Player". In your case, I'm not
sure what it means?????
I do agree that WordPerfect was better, and I have always liked Mozilla
based browsers (Firefox, Seamonkey, and Kmeleon) better than IE. But
there have been Microsoft programs that I liked and some I hated. I used
MS Dos, and loved it, for it's time, but honestly, I still use Dos for a
few things, and still like it. I have used Windows 3.x, Win95, 98, and
2000. I played around with WinME and did not find fault with it like
many people did. And then I have used XP quite a lot.

I never owned Vista, but I did try it on someone elses computer and
hated it. I have not used anything newer, but the look of Windows 8,
what they call Metro-look, nauseates me. I have never had a need for MS
Office, but I tried it for Win98 and it seemed to offer a lot.

I will honestly say, that while Linux "looks" good in many cases, I find
it impossible to use for the avarage computer user, and I consider
myself more knowledgable than the "average" user, and I could never get
it to work. I think the eazrlier versions of Windows were far superior
and much easier to use than anything Linux.

Of all the MS operating systems, and I know this will attract
controversy, I still think Win98SE was the BEST operating system ever
made by MS. XP would be my second choice, but "out of the box", it
contains a lot of crap, so it takes considerable tweaking to eliminate
the crap. Windows 2000 was more stripped down, and not all that bad.
XP had a little more in usefulness, but then they added all that bloat
which sort of ruined the simplicity of Win2000.

I want no part of the newer MS OSs, and as far as the older ones, they
were what they were. Win3.x worked for it's time period, but it was
pretty poor, and Win95 was lacking, but yet it was the foundation for
Win98, and that was positive growth.

This dont mean I'm right, but this is my honest opinion and my personal
preference. Although the NT based OSs would have happened, I think MS
made a huge mistake by not continuing with Win98. They could now be
selling TWO OSs. One for the teckie crowd (which is what they have
now), adn one for the person who dont want all those bells, whistles and
bloat (like myself). All that Win98 lacked was USB support. And while
I have heard many times over the years, that 98 is not stable, I can
prove that wrong. I can crash XP faster than Win98. In fact all that
causes 98 to become overloaded and slow down to a turtle pace, are all
those damn script errors in browsers. Once I close the browsers, it's
fine.

On 04/05/2015 08:33 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 5 Apr 2015 17:41:27 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:

I agree with much of what you've said. I still use XP
and have no plan to change. But I also write software,
so I had to learn about Vista/7. I spent about 2 weeks
exploring and got to where I could make do with Win7
if I have to.

If I didn't have to buy it, I'd probably TRY Win7. But I wont pay for
it, knowing I will not likely like it. I know it wont run on most of my
older computers, but I do have one newer one, which does nothing but use
space in my closet, because I cant get Win98 drivers for it.

Windows 8, I would not touch with a 10 foot pole with someone elses
computer on the end....

Like I said, I still like Win98 the best, and although I forced myself
to use XP, I never liked it all that much, and still dont. I'm using
Win98 right now. But for usenet and email, it works fine.

Aside from that.... yes, MS is going toward rental. A lot
of software is going toward service. Linux is still a half-
finished kit that gets updated regularly while support ends
for the last version. Windows has *by far* the best backward
compatibility.

Aside from the WEB, my old Win98 macgine does everything I need as far
as office type apps, editing photos and music, playing videos, and much
more. My XP machine can do all of that fine too.

But rental software and all of that is not going to happen here. I'll
make do with my old computers, or not use them at all. But I know both
Win98 and XP will work to play music and videos for a long time, and by
then, I'll be too senile to give a ****, or dead.

snip


I think the changes online -- from "information highway"
to spyware eShopping with targetted ads -- and changes
in software to promote rental, are perhaps more of a problem
going forward than the actual software and OSs. Even the
Linux distributions are becoming like services. You need to
use console to get things done, yet at the same time it's
increasingly difficult to get around restrictions and the OS
wants to update itself. I guess the future depends in large
part on how many people care -- how much market there
is for private computers with software tools, as opposed
to swipe-and-smudge shopping devices.




snipped for brevity


If you think it's too complicated, then it will be too complicated...but
it's not.

XP is no more difficult to use than Win98 and going further, Win7 is
equally simple to use.

Win8 and the Metro interface? Yep, that could be a problem but not
insurmountable.


My mother is 88 years old and has no trouble with Win7 and even setup a
wifi printer...which is more advanced than anything I have.

| Then again, as an MS MVP you don't really have
| any choice in the matter. If you didn't "like" Win8
| you wouldn't be an MVP.
|
|
| Not at all true. Like all Microsoft MVPs, I am free to have my own
| likes and dislikes,

Up to a point. Some MVPs are MS lapdogs and some
are gracious, professional, well informed, helpful
people, but I've never seen one who didn't substantially
go along with Microsoft's business. You wouldn't be a
"Microsoft valued professional" for long if your activities
didn't support Microsoft's business.

| I also think that Internet Explorer is poorer than either Maxthon
| (which I used until a couple of weeks ago)....

As I demonstrated recently here, Maxthon using the
IE rendering option (as opposed to the Firefox rendering
option) is no more and no less than IE.
More precisely, the browser window is exactly the IE
browser window. Maxthon and IE (and mshta.exe, and
all other IE-based browsers, for that matter) are merely
wrappers, providing a menu and/or "chrome" around that
window.

The IE automation object model and the IE document
object model provide a vast number of ways that one
can affect the behavior of both the browser window
and the page viewed (for instance, one can programmatically
hide the IE context menu and show one's own), but it's
all still essentially IE, with the same rendering and the
same security risks as whatever version of IE one
currently has installed.

I think the issue gets confused because of Microsoft's
long history of trying to conflate IE with the Internet.
Thus, in Control Panel, the IE settings are mislabeled
as "Internet Options", as though they applied to all
Internet activity. IE cookies are presented as Windows
cookies. IE API functions are presented as the Windows
Internet API. (Even many programmers are unaware that
using the so-called Windows Internet API will store IE
cookies, cache and history.) IE's cache is presented
as Windows Internet cache. And Windows shell extensions
incorporate IE integration. But it's all still IE, regardless of
how MS would like to construe it.

Having looked at Maxthon after that last discussion,
I'm at a loss to figure why anyone ever liked it. I see
a dual wrapper with less control over either browser
than each provides individually.

| Like I said, I still like Win98 the best, and although I forced myself
| to use XP, I never liked it all that much, and still dont. I'm using
| Win98 right now. But for usenet and email, it works fine.
|

I also stayed with Win98 for a long time. I will say, though,
that I find XP to be faster and more stable on the same
hardware. I've gradually come to like XP, but it required a lot
work. I had to research how to get the flexibility I had with
Win98. I even ended up writing my own Explorer Bar to replace
the flexible "web view" folder window customization that I
had set up in Win9x. I think XP can be quite good, but not
without work and study. For instance, it took some effort to
figure out how to stop MS spyware from going through the
firewall. (One has to block svchost, and in order to do that
one has to disable DHCP service, and in order to do that one
has to used a fixed IP address in network settings..... stuff like
that that no one should have to learn.)

I spent a couple of weeks fiddling with Win7. What I found
was far more bloat on a far more brittle OS. And of course,
a lot of new complexity that's not necessary. (It's no small
job just to get the boot files onto the same partition as the OS!)
I ended up writing a program to delete ADS files (a potential
security risk) and another program to remove all file restrictions
quickly from any or all files/folders. After two weeks I arrived
at something salveageable, but certainly not preferable to XP.
And I still haven't really weeded through the ridiculously bloated
pile on services that didn't exist on XP.

In Microsoft's defense, Win7 is generally safer "out of the
box", simply because it's far more restrictive. So for the people
who just want to buy something at Amazon it's arguably more
usable than XP. Win7 also appears more stable and responsive
in some respects, thanks to the massive bloat. One doesn't
have to "please insert the Windows disk" to get files or drivers
because MS dumped the whole mess into the install without
asking permission. That makes for very smooth plug-and-play.

| I think the web is becoming a piece of ****.

Yes, but on the other hand, it's still very inspiring. Craigslist.
Wikipedia. There are amazing resources provided by decent
people who are just trying to be helpful and don't feel like
they should be given billions of dollars for their efforts.

| Because I live in the rural
| area, I can only get dialup internet. It takes forever to load websites
| now.

If you use a Mozilla browser, have you considered
blocking 3rd-party images and using a HOSTS file?
Also, disable script. Many sites now use up to 1 MB
for script alone. And I've noticed lately that CSS
bloating is becomin "fashionable". A 60 KB webpage
can have 1-2 MB of script and CSS alone.

| That's part of the biggest problem with Linux. Not to insult anyone, but
| I have found that Linux users are some of the rudest assholes I have
| ever talked to (online).

Yes. I don't think that's going to improve. Many of
those people are simply unsocialized. And most of the
people in the groups are actually adolescent Linux
groupies. (Adolescent in age or personal maturity or
both.) They don't want you to understand the system
without first going through the hazing. It's a club for
them, not a tool.

At one point I answered a request for Windows
programmers to submit software to the WINE project
and help with debugging the WINE functionality. Even
then I found that I was condescended to, treated
as a child and not provided with any documentation
that might help me to adapt my software to what WINE
could do. I expected to get something like a list of
supported API functions, but the person in charge only
wanted me to act as a bug reporter!

| I know this is an Microsoft and an XP newsgroup, but I'd like an honest
| answer. Would I do better buying a Macintosh? Are they doing the same
| crap that MS is doing?

That's really a matter of opinion. And there are lots
of opinions. I think the best analogy for Apple is AOL:
They're dependable, relatively safe, overpriced, geared
toward the "consumer" and restrictive. There's a great
deal of lock-in; less available software; everything Apple
costs "an arm and a leg"; they're arguably more sleazy
and abusive to their customers than even Google, exploiting
slave labor in China, hiding profits offshore, then charging
top dollar to the fan base. Perhaps the most insidious aspect
of Apple is that, like Google, they've cleverly positioned
themselves as both cute and cutting-edge. (I've been amazed
to see hardcore tech people get suckered into thinking both
companies are "cool". It was the tech crowd who popularized
gmail. They thought they were being ultra-hip by applying
for an "invitation" to be among the first to use spyware email!)

On the other hand, Apple products tend to be stable
because they're so tightly controlled. A PC is an assemblage
of generic parts onto which one installs an OS. A Mac is
essentially a locked-down device. They're designed for
people who don't care to get under the hood. So they
tend to work well. And the graphics, despite having only
1/64th the number of colors in a Windows display, are
generally quite beautiful. (Assuming you don't mind icons that
look like they were drawn by a 12-year-old girl who dots her
i's with little hearts.)

There's only one way to know for sure. Visit an Apple
church and try one out. Or perhaps better would be
to find a friend willing to lend theirs.

wrote:

In football, MVP means "Most Valuable Player". In your case, I'm not
sure what it means?????

It's a title awarded to non-employees who help
others out in forums.

Some forum participants become "fixated" on the title.

Some wannabee IT guys, think that having the title bestowed,
will increase their business, and allow them to charge
more for their services. You will occasionally find
people "offering a little too much help", as they
attempt to get their MVP title. You can kinda tell
they're not helping anyone but themselves.

I think you can see where that is headed. There's at
least one deranged individual who stalks MVPs
(collects pictures of them, tries to get details
of the personal life, and so on).

When all they are, is people who help out, and they
received recognition for the help they provided.

Are they Ghods ? Did they drink the KoolAid ? You decide.

And if you're going to stalk them, remember to buy
a big scrapbook. For all the pictures.

Paul

On Mon, 6 Apr 2015 10:36:22 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| Like I said, I still like Win98 the best, and although I forced myself
| to use XP, I never liked it all that much, and still dont. I'm using
| Win98 right now. But for usenet and email, it works fine.
|

I also stayed with Win98 for a long time. I will say, though,
that I find XP to be faster and more stable on the same
hardware. I've gradually come to like XP, but it required a lot
work. I had to research how to get the flexibility I had with
Win98. I even ended up writing my own Explorer Bar to replace

snip

Thanks for the detailed info. I now know more about how Windows 7
functions. And yea, I agree that XP needs a lot of tweaking. You hit
the spot, when you used the word "flexibility" (with Win98). That's what
I like about it, and I have configured it to my likes, which goes back
many years. I even removed the (external parts) of IE, and removed OE.
Neither I use. One of my big complaints of XP is that it collects lists
of crap, of things I have done. I can never recall where they are, but
I can find them by doing a search "most recent files". Then I delete
all of them. That is something that is unnecessary, and could be used
as a means to spy, yet there is no way to turn it off. Plus, XP is far
more suscectible to viruses and spyware than Win98.


I spent a couple of weeks fiddling with Win7. What I found
was far more bloat on a far more brittle OS. And of course,

It seems to me that MS has run out of USEFUL things ot do to upgrade
their OSs, and BLOAT is all that they can add now. nd "I HATE BLOAT".
The simpler the better..... Which is why I prefer Win98.

snip

In Microsoft's defense, Win7 is generally safer "out of the
box", simply because it's far more restrictive. So for the people
who just want to buy something at Amazon it's arguably more
usable than XP. Win7 also appears more stable and responsive
in some respects, thanks to the massive bloat. One doesn't
have to "please insert the Windows disk" to get files or drivers
because MS dumped the whole mess into the install without
asking permission. That makes for very smooth plug-and-play.

| I think the web is becoming a piece of ****.

Yes, but on the other hand, it's still very inspiring. Craigslist.
Wikipedia. There are amazing resources provided by decent
people who are just trying to be helpful and don't feel like
they should be given billions of dollars for their efforts.

You touched upon some sites that still work well and fairly quick.
The worse sites are the MEDIA websites, such as CNN, CBS, MSNBC, FOX,
etc....


| Because I live in the rural
| area, I can only get dialup internet. It takes forever to load websites
| now.

If you use a Mozilla browser, have you considered
blocking 3rd-party images and using a HOSTS file?
Also, disable script. Many sites now use up to 1 MB
for script alone. And I've noticed lately that CSS
bloating is becomin "fashionable". A 60 KB webpage
can have 1-2 MB of script and CSS alone.

I DO use the HOSTS file quite a bit. I have a lot of those advertising
sites blocked, like doubleclick. I have close to 40 entries just to
block Facebook, since they flood damn near every website. I know my
HOSTS file is getting rather big....

As far as disabling Scripts, I have K-Meleon as my default browser, and
always have Scripts disabled. But that browser has a "scripts "on-off"
button right on the page, so I can toggle it easily. If K-Meleon cant
handle the webpage, I'll try Firefox. But I am aware that there are a
few commonly used sites, such as Ebay and Youtube, that wont work on
K-Meleon, so I know to load them in FF right away.

The problem with keeping the SCRIPTS turned off, is that I constantly
get annoying error messages on the pages. Yea, I can ignore them, and
soem pages still work just fine. But many pages will not allow me to
click on any links, with scripts turned off. So, then I have to turn the
scripts on, and reload the page. I have actually taken a webpage loaded
it with and without scripts, and it will load 10X (or more) faster
without scripts.

How does someone disable CSS?
And what exactly is CSS?


| That's part of the biggest problem with Linux. Not to insult anyone, but
| I have found that Linux users are some of the rudest assholes I have
| ever talked to (online).

Yes. I don't think that's going to improve. Many of
those people are simply unsocialized. And most of the
people in the groups are actually adolescent Linux
groupies. (Adolescent in age or personal maturity or
both.) They don't want you to understand the system
without first going through the hazing. It's a club for
them, not a tool.

I've often pictured these linux people as people with thick glasses who
spend their whole lives in front of a computer. They never go out to do
sports, never go to parties or a bar or a restaurant, never go camping
or hunting, or fishing, rarely even go to an actual brick store, and how
they get their money (without a job) is still a mystery. I guess that
explains the "unsocialized" part! And I am likely not too inaccurate in
this regard, because I once met just such a person in real life......
(except his thing was not linux, but computer gaming).

And I think your use of the word "Adolescent" further reinforces this...


At one point I answered a request for Windows
programmers to submit software to the WINE project
and help with debugging the WINE functionality. Even
then I found that I was condescended to, treated
as a child and not provided with any documentation

snip

That sounds about right from the experiences I have gotten from linux
related questions in general. A few years ago, I installed a linux
distro that someone gave me on CD, 6 years prior, and I was finally
getting around to trying it. I came close to actually understanding it,
and it worked, but I was confused with a few things. I asked on a Linux
newsgroup for some help. A few people seemed to actually provide some
knowledge, but they began at the "college level", not the 3rd grade
level that I needed as a newbie. All the other posters blasted me for
installing a 6 year old distro and said they would not help me unless I
upgraded to the latest. I then found the upgrade was on DVD (too big
for a CD). I finally got it, installed it, and found it was so damn
complex and bloated that I had no clue what to do with it. I formatted
the hard drive, and needless to say, that was the last time I ever
touched Linux.


| I know this is an Microsoft and an XP newsgroup, but I'd like an honest
| answer. Would I do better buying a Macintosh? Are they doing the same
| crap that MS is doing?

That's really a matter of opinion. And there are lots
of opinions. I think the best analogy for Apple is AOL:
They're dependable, relatively safe, overpriced, geared
toward the "consumer" and restrictive. There's a great
deal of lock-in; less available software; everything Apple
costs "an arm and a leg"; they're arguably more sleazy

I know they cost more, but a used system from Ebay would be what I'd be
looking for. No, not something that's 10 or more years old, but
soemthing from the last 5 years would be acceptable. I do like the
"relatively safe" part!

snip

On the other hand, Apple products tend to be stable
because they're so tightly controlled. A PC is an assemblage
of generic parts onto which one installs an OS. A Mac is
essentially a locked-down device. They're designed for
people who don't care to get under the hood. So they
tend to work well. And the graphics, despite having only
1/64th the number of colors in a Windows display, are
generally quite beautiful. (Assuming you don't mind icons that
look like they were drawn by a 12-year-old girl who dots her
i's with little hearts.)

I can live with the stupid icons
While I do like getting "under the hood" for some things, too much of
that is a turn off for me. In other words, I like to set things up to
the way I like them, but having to constantly tweak annoyances or
upgrade constantly really annoys me. If I was to get a Mac, it would
mostly be for internet use. A huge part of that would be for the
SAFETY. Another part would be for the compatibility, because as I said,
I'm tired of upgrading.

For most of my other needs, I'd stick with my PC. After all, whether I
use Win98 or XP, both of them work just fine for ALL my needs, (EXCEPT
the web). I see these people using their Ipods (or is that Ipads), on
the internet, and they dont seem to have all these issues that we have
with browsers, etc. I'd rather have an actual computer, as I mentioned
those small screens are too hard for me to see, plus I'm still stuck
with using a modem on dialup or going to a WIFI.

If an Apple/Mac is going to make my life easier on the web, that is all
I really want. I could probably live with Win98 and XP for the rest of
my life for all my other needs.


There's only one way to know for sure. Visit an Apple
church and try one out. Or perhaps better would be
to find a friend willing to lend theirs.


I dont know anyone who has an Apple computer (near me), but I may go to
one of the stores and try one. Or after further learning about them,
maybe I'll find a good deal on a used one on Ebay and just give it a
try, knowing I can probably get my money back of it's not for me.

Since you seem to know more about the Apple machines than me, maybe you
can tell me what browsers they use..... It seems to me there is a
Firefox for the Mac. And something which begins with the letter "S"
(cant recall what that is).

I'll have to try to find a decent website that gives the basics and
needed info to understand them, I guess.....
(URL recommendations appreciated)!

On 05/04/2015 21:45, wrote:
If none of this works, I guess us elders will just be forced to stop
using computers and go back to the technology that existed at the time
we were born, namely typewriters, rotary phones, books, vinyl albums and
film cameras.




Apart from books nothing in your list will ever come back. Even the
books are electronic these days!! Depending on your age, have you
thought of packing up everything and spend time talking rubbish about
how how wonderful life was in the 40s after the war and all that crap.
aren't there any old people's clubs in your area? You will find lots of
old people like you to talk to there.

On these forums we tend to see more and more octogenarians reminiscing
of their childhood.