Thunderbird -OT

On 06/11/2019 19.59, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
[...]

With gmail, I notice often when changing location with my laptop that
Thunderbird will not connect. Minutes later I get an email on another
account telling of a security violation on the gmail account, and to
clear it out, I have to login via webmail, see the alert mail, click on
a link, and say F** off, it was me.

This problem has been discussed several times [1] in this group.

Assuming you're using POP (or/and SMTP), you can get around this
problem by using an (Google) App Password in Thunderbird. (If you're
using IMAP, you can also use OAuth2.)

Ah, changing to oauth2, it was not set on that particular account.


--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Char Jackson wrote:

On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 20:25:47 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

Post #1 (at Giganews):

From: BillH
Subject: Folder Account add-on for TB 68.x
To:
Message-ID:

Post #2 (also at Giganews):

Subject: Provider for Google Calendar using OAUTH
From: Wayne
To:
Message-ID:

Both those posts were submitted to Mozilla's e-mail server which copies
via their NNTP-to-email gateway to their NNTP server (hosted at
Giganews).

OK, so if I understand you correctly, they traveled from Mozilla's
NNTP-to-email gateway to Giganews to Newshosting, where I picked them up.
They also appear on my AstraWeb feed. Thus, verifying that the Mozilla
newsgroups do indeed get peered to Usenet. Is that right?

The headers of both your example posts show they were originally
submitted to Mozilla's e-mail server which then copied them via an
NNTP-to-mail gateway to their NNTP server which is hosted by Giganews.

You're using Newshosting. They use Highwinds for their Usenet backbone.
As such, the PATH header I see when connecting to my individual.net
server for your message submitted to Newshosting's server (a reseller of
Highwinds Usenet service) is:

Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!......!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx40.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail

Newshosting isn't listed as an injection node (at the right-end of the
header since servers get prepended as peering progresses through them)
because they are likely a reseller of Highwinds service. Astraweb is
also a Highwinds reseller.

https://www.newsgroupservers.net/use...hwinds_review/

If you were connecting to Newshosting to see the mozilla.* newsgroups, I
would've expected a similar PATH header showing something like:

Path: highwinds!...!giganews!mozilla

Posts submitted at Mozilla's server should start with an injection node
that notes Mozilla's (er, Giganews) server.

The posts you showed were submitted to Mozilla's server which is a
Giganews server, but there was no more nodes in the peering route from
Giganews to Highwinds (and then to Newshosting). What you showed I
would expect to see if you connected to Giganews as your server to see
other posts submitted to Giganews.

In fact, the PATH header in the posts you showed in invalid.
"not-for-mail" is not a valid hostname for an injection node. At a
minimum, Mozilla's Giganews-hosted server should've been listed as the
injection node. This seems a violation on Mozilla's part regarding the
hostnames in the PATH header, probably partially due to their use of an
NNTP-to-mail gateway. I've seen similar ****ups with web-based forums
that leech from Usenet using an HTTP-to-NNTP gateway where they haven't
a clue what Usenet headers should be present, which they should support
or update, and which are necessary for Usenet messaging, like omitting
the References header in replies which means loss of threading or
hierarchy.

The PATH header is *only* used and mandatory in Usenet news[groups], but
not in e-mail. A "Path: not-for-mail" is an invalid header.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1036
Section 2.1.6

While a PATH header may have "!not-for-mail" at its very end (included
with the injection node's header name), having that alone for the PATH's
value means the peering route is null. Even for posts submitted to the
same server that I use, I will see a minimum of our shared NNTP's server
listed as the injection node and sole node in PATH (that is, I, the
reader, and they, the sender, are both using the same sender), and will
see:

Path: uni-berlin.de

I suppose Newshosting could be modifying the PATH header, but that would
violate RFC 1036 and how everyone else uses the PATH header. Altopia
allows posters to modify (preload) the PATH header by specifying
whatever hostname they want as the injection node. Their stated
requirement is that alt.com should be prepended to the poster's own node
name, but they don't actually check, so malcontents can pretend to
inject from any host, even a bogus one, and why I filter out all posts
submitted to Altopia. They allow their users to modify the PATH header,
and only the servers should be doing that (and only by prepending their
own host and not touching the prior content of the PATH header). As
long as Altopia continues to allow their users to preload the PATH
header with the user's choice of string for hostname, nothing coming
from Altopia can be trusted.

https://www.altopia.com/polfaq.html
Q: What is your policy on Path: pre-loading?
A: If a customer of Altopia performs Path: pre-loading on their Path:
lines with valid (or valid looking) site names before
"news.alt.net" they should end their path-preloading with
"news.alt.net", so that it appears twice and it is obvious the post
originated at Altopia. An exception to this is made for customers
who pre-load a site name that they own or have permission to use.

Oh, "should", uh huh. Like no user would ever violate a "should" versus
Altopia employing a script to check the user complied with the policy.
Of course, users never use someone else's existing (registered) domain
in their Message-ID header for which they were never granted permission.
Oh yes, users can always be trusted. (rolls eyes)

Did you use NNTP to connect to an NNTP server at Newshosting, or do you
subscribe to Mozilla's newsgroups via e-mail?

The different servers are Newshosting and AstraWeb. I can't easily check
any additional servers.

Those are both Highwinds resellers. That is, both will show highwinds
as the injection node in the PATH header. However, Newshosting seems to
be futzing around with the PATH header. There is no way someone posts
to news.mozilla.org which hosted at Giganews hence an injection node of
"giganews.com!news.mozilla.org" in PATH and gets it peered Giganews to a
Highwinds reseller (Newshosting) without showing a list of hosts through
which that article got peered.

Connect to Mozilla's (news.mozilla.org, port 119) which is free and
unregistered (no need to create a free account). Find an article on
Mozilla's server that you think has been peered to your NNTP server.
Look at the Message-ID header in the message on Mozilla's server and the
Message-ID header of the *same* message on your server. If the article
was peered from Mozilla/Giganews to your server, the MID should be the
same as well as the other headers and the body, except the PATH will
differ by showing something like Path: newshosting!...!giganews!mozilla
on your server and Path: giganews!mozilla when you connect to Mozilla's
server).

To me, seeing "Path: not-for-mail" is a fake header. Makes me
suspicious of any Usenet provider that shows that for the PATH header.
Perhaps they have a different way of peering from Mozilla's e-mail
server direct to Newshosting's server (rather than getting Mozilla's
e-mailed submissions via NNTP-to-mail gateway to the Giganews server and
posting via NNTP), but Newshosting would still be violating RFC 1036 and
the whole point of having a PATH header. PATH is a mandatory header, so
it must be included. PATH is supposed to show the route the message
took to peer it between servers (may only list one server if the sender
and you are using the same server ... but a server still gets listed).

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 13:33:51 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:

The headers of both your example posts show they were originally
submitted to Mozilla's e-mail server which then copied them via an
NNTP-to-mail gateway to their NNTP server which is hosted by Giganews.

You're using Newshosting. They use Highwinds for their Usenet backbone.

Yes, I know what I'm using. Now that we agree that the Mozilla groups are
peered to Usenet at large, I think the only question is whether it's a
bi-directional peering or is it one way, flowing out from Mozilla but
nothing flowing in except via their email gateway? I'll let someone else
pursue that. I've never bothered to subscribe to any Mozilla groups. If I
need some specific info, Google has it.

Did you use NNTP to connect to an NNTP server at Newshosting, or do you
subscribe to Mozilla's newsgroups via e-mail?

I only do NNTP.

The different servers are Newshosting and AstraWeb. I can't easily check
any additional servers.

Those are both Highwinds resellers.

Yes, I know. It was important to use something other than Giganews since
you said that's where Mozilla is hosted.

On 06/11/2019 21:43, Char Jackson wrote:
I remember when *Usenet* was an extremely poor and unreliable method for
file transfer. My, how times have changed.

My my, your knowledge of the computing world astounds me!!!

Or *have you been drinking again*? :-P

~BD~ wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

I remember when *Usenet* was an extremely poor and unreliable method
for file transfer. My, how times have changed.

My my, your knowledge of the computing world astounds me!!!
Or *have you been drinking again*? :-P

See, Char, why I have so many filters or they're complex? You get
trolls always nymshifting, like Boater Dave aka BD aka David In Devon
aka David G. Brooks aka David B aka BoaterDave aka David_B aka ~BD~ aka
BD1 aka BD2 aka Beady aka imbeady2 aka ...

VanguardLH Thu, 07
Nov 2019 06:14:44 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

~BD~ wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

I remember when *Usenet* was an extremely poor and unreliable
method for file transfer. My, how times have changed.

My my, your knowledge of the computing world astounds me!!!
Or *have you been drinking again*? :-P

See, Char, why I have so many filters or they're complex? You get
trolls always nymshifting, like Boater Dave aka BD aka David In
Devon aka David G. Brooks aka David B aka BoaterDave aka David_B
aka ~BD~ aka BD1 aka BD2 aka Beady aka imbeady2 aka ...


58.. possibly 59 now.. for some odd reason, he thinks this is actually
quite normal behavior. And, atleast one usenet regular thinks he's
misunderstood. Going so far as to label me a bully. Specifically that I
bullied BD. Oh, and he went on to explain (hahah, seriously) how David
Brooks isn't a stalker, but he's simply misunderstood. I really don't
know how Mike Easter plans to dig himself out of that hole, but it
should be make for some great usenet entertainment watching.




--
Four is certainly an odd number of arms for a man to have.

VanguardLH wrote:
~BD~ wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

I remember when *Usenet* was an extremely poor and unreliable method
for file transfer. My, how times have changed.
My my, your knowledge of the computing world astounds me!!!
Or *have you been drinking again*? :-P

See, Char, why I have so many filters or they're complex? You get
trolls always nymshifting, like Boater Dave aka BD aka David In Devon
aka David G. Brooks aka David B aka BoaterDave aka David_B aka ~BD~ aka
BD1 aka BD2 aka Beady aka imbeady2 aka ...

I'm detecting a faint whiff of "forgery".

Don't forget to edit the newsgroup list.
No purpose is served crossposting this crap.

Paul

Ken Blake wrote:
On 11/5/2019 3:56 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 05/11/2019 21.48, Ken Blake wrote:
On 11/5/2019 11:24 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 05/11/2019 19.18, Ken Blake wrote:
On 11/5/2019 10:16 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:

[snip]

and email is all webmail these days


That's incredible to me, but yes, it's largely true. It's hard for me
understand why anyone would prefer webmail to even the poorest e-mail
client.

I once set up an internet connection for a friend, and the ISP only
gave
instructions for webmail. This was apparently because the ISP inserted
their spam in every message sent that way.

This person would have been an involuntary spammer for years if I
hadn't
tried some server names and found their ISP supported POP3 as well as
webmail (they just hid that fact).


Many people use gmail, and very few of them even realize that an e-mail
client is an option with it.

I asked if they wanted me to set it up for them. Said no.

It also works if they want to check mail on somebody else's computer.


Back in the days before I had a laptop and before wifi was prevalent,
when I traveled I would often go to an internet cafe to check my email.
I used webmail for that because I had no choice. But on my own computer
at home, I still used an e-mail client. If someone wants to check mail
on somebody else's computer, he can use webmail, but that's no reason
for him to use it at home.

It is if computers are something complicated and difficult for that
person. Just one program to learn, not two.



Perhaps some people see it that way, but as far as I'm concerned it's
nonsense. You have to learn how to do e-mail, regardless of what program
or how many programs you use. It's no harder to learn to do it in almost
any e-mail program than it is in a browser.

And many of the people who do webmail used to use an e-mail client, and
already know how to do it that way. Rather than doing webmail because
its one program to learn, not two, I think the reason for most people is
that they don't realize the e-mail service they use (for example, gmail)
can be done in an e-mail client.

The issue is consistency. Webmail is consistent wherever you are and
doesn't require you to install anything. Outlook for example is very
different in the Mac vs on windows and of course doesn't exist in linux.
The outlook web client works the same on all of them.

Ken Blake wrote:

What have directions "left" and "right" got to do with downloading of
data?
I'd have wondered whether he was distinguishing between downloading from
remote server to local computer and uploading in the opposite direction -
but he has already said that he is downloading.

I'm sure it's just a (fairly common) figure of speech. I'd translate it as
"routinely, frequently, all of the time, on a regular basis", etc.

Oh, right. I've learned something today. I've not heard the phrase before. I
wonder if it's more common in the US than in the UK.

I'm in the US, and I've never seen or heard it before either.

I've certainly heard it, and understood it. Maybe I'm older than you.

--
"Feminism must be destroyed and if it means removing a woman's right
to vote, SO BE IT." - "Slimer", right-wing propagandist

INN servers, particularly Individual.NET ( 12$/Year ),
are the best way to update text-only newsgroups.

Binary servers ( Usenet-News.NET, BlockNews.NET )
are far cheaper then Individual.NET,
because 5 $ lasts a lifetime, and they don't censor you.

When it comes to posting, only a binary server will do.

Binary servers have no "xRef:" lines,
and Article Numbers are often useless there.

Also, newsgroups aren't always updated immediately;
sometimes there's a long lag, despite the fact that a peer
( e.g. Individual.NET ) always gets your posts immediately.

My custom-built newsreader, Jeff-Relf.Me/X.HTM,
keeps track of recently used message IDs, not Article Numbers;
so switching servers is painless, no need to re-download newsgroups.

My score file looks like this: Jeff-Relf.Me/Nyms.HTM

Thunderbird is a fork of Firefox;,
so it's _ extremely configurable to someone like me
who's comfortable writing CSS ( to alter the user interface,
webpages, and emails ) and JavaScript extensions.

For me, it's nothing to pop into The Inspector and alter ****.

By the way, Business Class Internet is the cheapest way
to get (truly) unlimited gigabytes.
Downloading 10 GigaByte videos, left and right, is nothing to me.

Morningstar replied ( to me ):
Individual.NET ( 12$/Year )

What do you mean when you put the $ after the number
instead of where it should be ?

Whenever you see the $ symbol, think:
Canadian Pesos, Australian Yuan, and/or Hong Kong Lbs.

things flying left and right ,
people running left and right ,
cars coming left and right

Perhaps it's common in some parts of the US that I am hardly ever in.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict...left+and+right

-- in a very quick and uncontrolled way

She has been spending money left and right.

-- in all directions

He was calling out names left and right.
The police were stopping cars left and right.

https://www.google.com/search?q=define:left+and+right

"deals were being done left, right, and center"

https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...left+and+right

I went fishing yesterday and nailled bass left and right.

Last night there were hotties in the club left and right.

Mark Lloyd replied ( to PeeScent ):
common saying in canada ,
things flying left and right ,
people running left and right ,
cars coming left and right

All of those are situations where "different directions" make sense.
"Downloading left and right" isn't.

In my book, that makes you more illiterate then PeeScent;
something I would not have thought possible, up until now.
PeeScent dropped out of 4th grade and has yet to catch up.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...left+and+right

I went fishing yesterday and nailled bass left and right.

Last night there were hotties in the club left and right.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict...left+and+right

-- in a very quick and uncontrolled way

She has been spending money left and right.

-- in all directions

He was calling out names left and right.
The police were stopping cars left and right.

For privacy, binary servers expire the "Path:" line.