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  #46  
Old November 5th 19, 01:22 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
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Posts: 10,449
Default Thunderbird -OT

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:52:35 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On 11/4/2019 9:36 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 09:42:09 -0400, nospam wrote:

In article , Neil
wrote:

I'm not sure how common it is for users to access newsgroups from
multiple servers.

it's extremely common for binary downloads, which is the overwhelming
majority of usenet these days.


Agreed, but even the text-only folks have been migrating to the free NSPs



Interesting. I hadn't realized that binary downloads is the overwhelming
majority of usenet these days.


If I had been asked when the majority of Usenet activity shifted from text
discussions to binary downloading, I would say it was around 1995, give or
take a little. Certainly no later than 1998, but I have some historical
markers that say it was well before that.


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  #47  
Old November 5th 19, 01:24 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
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Posts: 10,449
Default Thunderbird -OT

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:53:50 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On 11/4/2019 11:12 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 07:54:50 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On 11/3/2019 7:42 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
On 11/2/2019 7:05 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
Ken Blake wrote:

Sorry about the off-topic question, but I don't know where else to ask this.

I'm been trying Thunderbird 68.2.1 as my newsreader, rather than Agent,
which I used to use. I like some things about Thunderbird better than
Agent and some less, so I haven't yet decided which to stick with. But I
have a Thunderbird question:

A cross-posted message is showing up in each folder I open that it's
been cross-posted to. Is it possible to have it appear only once? If so,
what should I change to make that happen.

Thunderbird newsgroup: mozilla.support.thunderbird
Mozilla NNTP server: news.mozilla.org, port 119

OK, I just subscribed to it. My memory of a problem was wrong.


I'm curious, did you subscribe to it on news.individual.net or on
news.mozilla.org? Are the two groups mirrored?



news.mozilla.org. As far as I know, news.individual.net doesn't carry it.


OK, thanks. I see that Newshosting and AstraWeb both carry such a group but
I have no idea if it's the same group that's on the mozilla server.

  #48  
Old November 5th 19, 01:56 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
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Posts: 10,449
Default Thunderbird -OT

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 16:36:03 -0500, Neil wrote:

On 11/4/2019 4:22 PM, Char Jackson wrote:

To the user, the decision to use crosspost management and the decision to
use multiple servers should be independent of one another.

It's easy to understand why cross-post management could be problematic
if multiple servers are used. The xref message numbering could be
irrelevant because the numbering is generated by the server. Different
servers -- different numbering.


Yes, and that's why a newsreader wouldn't/shouldn't use article numbers for
the task. They should use something else that doesn't change, regardless of
which server sourced the article. In my ancient copy of Agent, the choices
are "Subject, Author, Date, Lines" or "Message ID". Either of those two
choices should be pretty safe, no matter which server was involved.

  #49  
Old November 5th 19, 04:06 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Neil
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On 11/4/2019 7:56 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 16:36:03 -0500, Neil wrote:

On 11/4/2019 4:22 PM, Char Jackson wrote:

To the user, the decision to use crosspost management and the decision to
use multiple servers should be independent of one another.

It's easy to understand why cross-post management could be problematic
if multiple servers are used. The xref message numbering could be
irrelevant because the numbering is generated by the server. Different
servers -- different numbering.


Yes, and that's why a newsreader wouldn't/shouldn't use article numbers for
the task. They should use something else that doesn't change, regardless of
which server sourced the article. In my ancient copy of Agent, the choices
are "Subject, Author, Date, Lines" or "Message ID". Either of those two
choices should be pretty safe, no matter which server was involved.

Any of those individual choices have even more problems than xref
numbering. The most reliable alternative would be to combine all of
those elements into one message ID. Even then, the programming gets
pretty complex where multiple servers are involved.

--
best regards,

Neil
  #50  
Old November 5th 19, 04:21 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
nospam
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Posts: 4,718
Default Thunderbird -OT

In article , Neil
wrote:

To the user, the decision to use crosspost management and the decision to
use multiple servers should be independent of one another.

It's easy to understand why cross-post management could be problematic
if multiple servers are used. The xref message numbering could be
irrelevant because the numbering is generated by the server. Different
servers -- different numbering.


Yes, and that's why a newsreader wouldn't/shouldn't use article numbers for
the task. They should use something else that doesn't change, regardless of
which server sourced the article. In my ancient copy of Agent, the choices
are "Subject, Author, Date, Lines" or "Message ID". Either of those two
choices should be pretty safe, no matter which server was involved.

Any of those individual choices have even more problems than xref
numbering. The most reliable alternative would be to combine all of
those elements into one message ID. Even then, the programming gets
pretty complex where multiple servers are involved.


it's not that complex.
  #51  
Old November 5th 19, 05:51 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
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Posts: 10,449
Default Thunderbird -OT

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 13:43:21 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

Ken Blake wrote:

I'm been trying Thunderbird 68.2.1 as my newsreader, rather than
Agent, which I used to use. I like some things about Thunderbird
better than Agent and some less, so I haven't yet decided which to
stick with.


What kinds of issues are you having with Agent? I was going to suggest
posting in alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent but I see that you're
already active over there.


Ken never mentioned which version of Agent he is/was using.


Agent 6.0. It's in every one of his posts. :-)
Just kidding, I know what you meant.

If it's a
free version, that is damn old. Isn't 3.3 the latest free version of
Agent? That was released back in 09-Mar-2006.


Correct, v3.3 is/was the last free version. It's still available for
download from http://www.forteinc.com/agent/download-all.php

As for being old, that's not really a problem, is it? It's not like Usenet
has changed over the years. I use Agent 2.0, which is even older.

As I recall, it was
distributed as shareware, not freeware, so users were expected to try
and then discard or buy.


Try, and then discard, buy, or continue to use with a reduced feature set.

It's up to version 8.0 now ($29). Agent 8.0
was released way back on 20-Oct-2014 (http://www.forteinc.com/release/)
which was 5 years ago, no improvements since then, and they still want
money for it? I suspect their primary and prevalent revenue comes from
their Usenet service, not their client.


In Forte's defense, it's been $29 since when, the late 1990's? Also, it's
arguably one of the better Usenet clients, so I say good for them. I'm not
sure what kind of improvements they need to include.

My recollection when I tried the free version (don't know if it was 3.3,
or a 2.x version) was that it poorly handled multiple servers. I think
Agent, back then, only handled one server. The workaround was to make a
copy of some config file. You would have a config file for each server.
You copied the customized config file atop the standard-named config
file before you loaded free Agent. I used a batch file to make the
selection which did the overwrite of the config file and then loaded
Agent.


Ugh, that's an ugly way to do it. Not recommended at all. You're on the
right track, though. Early versions officially only supported a single
server, but it's trivial to add multi-server support after the fact. Later
versions added multi-server support without any tricks/hacks. You obviously
tried an earlier version.

As I recall, back then (don't know about now), it really didn't
have filters. It had searches you could define that acted like filters,
but you had to manually run the saved search.


Good catch. Filters are one of the features that work during the trial
period and after you purchase a registration key. If you use a free
version, the filter feature is disabled. If filters are important, and I
think they are, you'd have to buy a key.

I might've gone with a payware version of Agent, except there are lots
of free alternatives. The one that I'm using now (40tude Dialog,
abandoned since 2005) that got panned in several trials when I'd get
spurred to trial several alternatives to OE (the OE-QuoteFix just wasn't
enough, nor the registry tweaks afford in WinXP SP-3). Not until I
decided to spend more time defining macros to alter its behavior and
learn more regex to define more focused and accurate rules did I stick
with Dialog.


That's cool. I'm glad you like it.

  #52  
Old November 5th 19, 05:56 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
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Posts: 10,449
Default Thunderbird -OT

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 13:52:49 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

I'm curious, did you subscribe to it on news.individual.net or on
news.mozilla.org? Are the two groups mirrored?


For Mozilla's newsgroups: (1) They are actually primarily a mailing list
(i.e., you use an e-mail client), and why you don't get a fail on
submission and always get a succeed because it doesn't fail until their
NNTP-to-SMTP gateway gets it, but there is no feedback from their mail
server back to their NNTP server; and, (2) They are not peered anywhere
(except to Google Groups which doesn't peer them out from there).


OK, thanks, good to know. So the group with that name that exists on
non-mozilla servers is probably not peered to the 'official' server.

individual.net, eternal-september, albasani, and non-Mozilla NNTP
servers don't carry the mozilla.* newsgroups.


Newshosting and AstraWeb, as two examples, carry at least 92 mozilla
newsgroups. As stated above, however, and based on what you're saying, I
assume they are not peered with the official mozilla groups. Is that right?

  #53  
Old November 5th 19, 05:59 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
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Posts: 10,449
Default Thunderbird -OT

On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 15:03:45 -0500, Paul wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On 4 Nov 2019 14:22:20 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

[big snips ahead, because it's mostly stuff that I agree with and some
other stuff that I'm not addressing in this post]

Apparently TB currently uses the newsrc file only for recording the
subscribed groups, *not* for recording the article numbers of the read
articles in those groups.

See Tools - Account Settings - your News account - 'Server
Settings' - Message Storage - newsrc file: - Browse...

You will see one or more server.rc files with entries like:

alt.comp.os.windows-10:

which means you're subscribed to that group.

A *normal* (non-TB) .newsrc file would have:

alt.comp.os.windows-10: 1-37201,37225,37231,37233-37235

which means I've read all articles with the indicated ranges and
numbers.

I.e. I've *not* (yet) read articles 37202-37224, 37226-37230 and
37232.

Why TB can't be bothered to do this properly is anyone's guess.


Hmmm, that's very interesting. Are you sure that your .newsrc file is
indicating which articles you've read?


hostinfo.dat has the master newsgroup list
blah.blah.rc is the newsrc with the subscribed list, and the
usual notation for read articles.
group.name.msf is the Mork file, which has status bits such
as Read and HasRe. The HasRe bit indicates an article
is a reply, so is stuck in front.



Thanks, but I was asking specifically about the .newsrc file. The files
above appear to be related to Thunderbird.

I think Frank has replied and given me what I was looking for.


  #54  
Old November 5th 19, 06:31 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
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Posts: 10,449
Default Thunderbird -OT

On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 15:31:47 -0500, Paul wrote:

Ken Blake wrote:
On 11/4/2019 9:36 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 09:42:09 -0400, nospam wrote:

In article , Neil
wrote:

I'm not sure how common it is for users to access newsgroups from
multiple servers.

it's extremely common for binary downloads, which is the overwhelming
majority of usenet these days.

Agreed, but even the text-only folks have been migrating to the free NSPs



Interesting. I hadn't realized that binary downloads is the overwhelming
majority of usenet these days.


On a bandwidth basis, a definite "Yes".

The binary groups that are not on your server, there are people
running downloads at full rate, all day long.

My ISP has a cap on bandwidth. I think my plan was 400GB per month.
But, between the hours of 2AM and 7AM, bandwidth is "free".

Well, one dude using my ISP, has automation set up to download
movies. He runs his link full rate, all month long, 2AM to 7AM,
downloading USENET binaries. He was bragging he got 1TB that way
in a single month, significantly exceeding his "daytime" 400GB allotment.
If he wanted then, he could have a total of 1.4TB of movie files
per month.

These are the kinds of people that are competing with your
paltry few text downloads :-)

They use bandwidth by the metric ton. They also pay a significant
amount to the NSP, to allow this. The monthly bill will be
X for the ISP, and ~3X for the NSP.


Your example is upside down. Internet access typically costs far more than
NSP binary access. For example, I pay $40/month to my ISP for 300 mbps and
unlimited downloads. (300 is actually more like 420, but whatever).
Meanwhile, I pay about $7.50 a month to my NSP for unlimited downloads. My
situation is not at all unusual.

There is also a dude, who appears to have a fairly high end
fiber optic cable, who uploads 1TB of movies per day to USENET.
And he's doing it, because a DMCA bot issues takedowns at max
rate, to try and stop him. And this goes on, on commercial
binary servers, a safe distance from your text posting.


Uploads are free and unlimited at every binary-capable NSP that I'm aware
of. As a result, you can buy the lowest tier of download service and get
unlimited uploads. That's why you see archives of over 500 gigs out there.
Some schmuck has probably uploaded his entire movie library, encrypted of
course, so that he can access it from anywhere with an Internet connection
while keeping it out of the hands of others. OK, I see that I just
exaggerated. The biggest archive that I see at the moment is just under 254
gigs. Still, it seems like a waste to me to have that data being peered all
over the planet.

Hmm, that gives me an idea. I don't have storage space to make a backup of
my data, so I guess I could just Rar it up, encrypt it, and upload it. NSPs
don't expire/delete those files anymore, so my backup would always and
forever be available if I need it. Plus, I could do another backup as often
I want, especially with my 400mbps upload these days. Naw, I'm not going to
do that.

Think of this activity, as a "continuous dumpster fire you
cannot see" :-) While I'm not interested in the details,
I think some of this stuff is quite funny.


It's definitely (still) a cat and mouse game. As always, the pirates are a
few steps ahead of the movie and music studios.

For Hollywood, from their perspective, they'll be trying
to figure out how they can "break the business model" of
the commercial binary servers. Cuomo played his part in
N.A. , but binary servers still run elsewhere.


As you'll recall, US-based ISPs all used to include free Usenet access as
part of their service bundle, even after they were aware that there was a
ton of problematic content being hosted there. They couldn't just drop that
part of their service without facing some amount of customer backlash. So
along comes Mario Cuomo, in New York, bringing action that made it much
easier to drop Usenet access than to fight to keep something that ISPs
didn't even want. After what happened in New York, the rest of the US-based
ISPs followed suit. So now, if you want Usenet access, you have to get it
on your own, including in New York. The same thing happened, albeit not for
the same reasons, with unix shells, free web hosting, and a bunch of other
stuff. What we get today is just a shadow of what used to be included.

The servers
may not be big in number, but the implementation must
be huge on these things. If you believe their retention
figures. The biggest one would be competing with archive.org
for disk drives. I've never seen any statistics to back this up,
as to exactly how big all the servers together are. Or how
it's possible to store and organize bulk postings like this.
It's not likely to be a standard copy of INN.


There's nothing special about the servers. The things that are 'big' are
the storage pools. The storage pools are physically separate from the
servers. The servers mostly just broker the user logins and the connections
to the storage pools. I guess I shouldn't speak for all NSPs since I've
only been in the data centers for 2 of the biggest of them.

  #55  
Old November 5th 19, 06:49 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default Thunderbird -OT

Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 15:03:45 -0500, Paul wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On 4 Nov 2019 14:22:20 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

[big snips ahead, because it's mostly stuff that I agree with and some
other stuff that I'm not addressing in this post]

Apparently TB currently uses the newsrc file only for recording the
subscribed groups, *not* for recording the article numbers of the read
articles in those groups.

See Tools - Account Settings - your News account - 'Server
Settings' - Message Storage - newsrc file: - Browse...

You will see one or more server.rc files with entries like:

alt.comp.os.windows-10:

which means you're subscribed to that group.

A *normal* (non-TB) .newsrc file would have:

alt.comp.os.windows-10: 1-37201,37225,37231,37233-37235

which means I've read all articles with the indicated ranges and
numbers.

I.e. I've *not* (yet) read articles 37202-37224, 37226-37230 and
37232.

Why TB can't be bothered to do this properly is anyone's guess.
Hmmm, that's very interesting. Are you sure that your .newsrc file is
indicating which articles you've read?

hostinfo.dat has the master newsgroup list
blah.blah.rc is the newsrc with the subscribed list, and the
usual notation for read articles.
group.name.msf is the Mork file, which has status bits such
as Read and HasRe. The HasRe bit indicates an article
is a reply, so is stuck in front.



Thanks, but I was asking specifically about the .newsrc file. The files
above appear to be related to Thunderbird.

I think Frank has replied and given me what I was looking for.


hostinfo.dat is the entire newsgroup list.

The .rc file is only the subscribed stuff.

And unsubscribing and resubscribing does not "reset"
anything. Any resetting in Thunderbird must be done
manually. Unlike how other client programs work.

Paul
  #56  
Old November 5th 19, 07:10 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
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Posts: 10,449
Default Thunderbird -OT

On 4 Nov 2019 21:21:41 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On 4 Nov 2019 14:22:20 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

[big snips ahead, because it's mostly stuff that I agree with and some
other stuff that I'm not addressing in this post]

Apparently TB currently uses the newsrc file only for recording the
subscribed groups, *not* for recording the article numbers of the read
articles in those groups.

See Tools - Account Settings - your News account - 'Server
Settings' - Message Storage - newsrc file: - Browse...

You will see one or more server.rc files with entries like:

alt.comp.os.windows-10:

which means you're subscribed to that group.

A *normal* (non-TB) .newsrc file would have:

alt.comp.os.windows-10: 1-37201,37225,37231,37233-37235

which means I've read all articles with the indicated ranges and
numbers.

I.e. I've *not* (yet) read articles 37202-37224, 37226-37230 and
37232.

Why TB can't be bothered to do this properly is anyone's guess.


Hmmm, that's very interesting. Are you sure that your .newsrc file is
indicating which articles you've read?


Yes. It's what a .newsrc file is supposed to do. It's easy to
see/prove by not reading a few articles (or (re-)marking them as
unread), the unread status will be reflected in the .newsrc file.


Well, shucks, you're exactly right! Sorry about that. It indeed works just
as you said, reflecting read status.

SNIP
As explained, standard .newsrc usage shows articles *read* (and hence
retrieved), *not* (just) retrieved.

Coming to think of it, *when* does your newsreader mark/consider an
article as read? Doesn't the fact that there can be a comma separated
list in your .newsrc file mean that you *did* read those articles? Why
would your newsreader retrieve those articles, if you weren't reading
them?


I think you addressed this in your next post. Agent can be used both online
and offline, but I only use it offline. As a result, I retrieve tons of
articles that never get read. I subscribe to groups, some for multiple
years already, that I've never read.

I don not know if there are any newsreaders which are multi-server
*and* use (multiple) .newsrc files for read status of cross-posted
articles. So we know that Agent doesn't do it that way, but we don't
know that it can't be done that way.


Well, let me clarify that when I talk about Agent, I'm referring to version
2.0, which is officially single server. It's easy enough to configure
additional servers, but that's not officially supported until a later
version. I've never used the multi-server versions, so I can't say how they
behave in this regard.

Before retirement, I ran News servers in our tiny 150K employee
company. So I always had access to 'my' own News server. So after
retirement (in 2003), I wanted to have similar functionality/speed.
Enter Hamster and I never looked back! :-)


Excellent. In my case, I specialize in load balancers, proxies (for web and
anything else customers need), scripted rules for traffic management,
firewalls, etc. That's why my personal virtual lab is full of load
balancers and proxies. Good fun.

  #57  
Old November 5th 19, 08:35 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
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Posts: 10,449
Default Thunderbird -OT

On 4 Nov 2019 22:54:48 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

Sigh! It finally hit me! The difference in handling - marking read
versus marking retrieved - is very likely not 'The Standard (TM)' versus
Agent, but an online reader (mine, tin) versus an offline reader (yours,
Agent).


Well, I appreciate the additional consideration you've obviously given this
topic, but you were right the first time.

An online reader only retrieves an article if the user - implicitly or
explicitly - requests it. After displaying the article and moving to
next one, the previous article is gone. so there's no concept of a 'has
been retrieved' status. So an online newsreader only records 'has been
read' status in the .newsrc file.


Agreed (now).

An offline newsreader retrieves articles and keeps them for some time.
So for an offline newsreader, there *is* a concept of a 'has been
retrieved' status. *And* - like an online newsreader - it has/
should_have a 'has been read' status.

So an online newsreader only records 'has been read' status and an
offline newsreader records both 'has been retrieved' status and 'has
been read' status.


You're right, but I had it wrong. The .newsrc file does indeed indicate
read status, as you've been saying, and Agent uses a second group-specific
database to keep everything else that it needs in order to function as an
offline reader.

To be compatible with 'standard' newsreaders, Agent should record 'has
been read' status in its .newsrc file and hence should record 'has been
retrieved' status in some other way/file.


It does.

If Agent is doing what you say it's doing - recording 'has been
retrieved' status in its .newsrc file - it's doing it incorrectly, i.e.
in a non-standard/incompatible way.


No, once I went back and tested it, as you suggested I should do, I saw
that you were right. It does show read status.

I hope this clears up most of the confusion (without creating/adding
any new).


Thanks for the clarity.

  #58  
Old November 5th 19, 08:38 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,449
Default Thunderbird -OT

On Tue, 05 Nov 2019 00:49:17 -0500, Paul wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 15:03:45 -0500, Paul wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On 4 Nov 2019 14:22:20 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

[big snips ahead, because it's mostly stuff that I agree with and some
other stuff that I'm not addressing in this post]

Apparently TB currently uses the newsrc file only for recording the
subscribed groups, *not* for recording the article numbers of the read
articles in those groups.

See Tools - Account Settings - your News account - 'Server
Settings' - Message Storage - newsrc file: - Browse...

You will see one or more server.rc files with entries like:

alt.comp.os.windows-10:

which means you're subscribed to that group.

A *normal* (non-TB) .newsrc file would have:

alt.comp.os.windows-10: 1-37201,37225,37231,37233-37235

which means I've read all articles with the indicated ranges and
numbers.

I.e. I've *not* (yet) read articles 37202-37224, 37226-37230 and
37232.

Why TB can't be bothered to do this properly is anyone's guess.
Hmmm, that's very interesting. Are you sure that your .newsrc file is
indicating which articles you've read?

hostinfo.dat has the master newsgroup list
blah.blah.rc is the newsrc with the subscribed list, and the
usual notation for read articles.
group.name.msf is the Mork file, which has status bits such
as Read and HasRe. The HasRe bit indicates an article
is a reply, so is stuck in front.



Thanks, but I was asking specifically about the .newsrc file. The files
above appear to be related to Thunderbird.

I think Frank has replied and given me what I was looking for.


hostinfo.dat is the entire newsgroup list.

The .rc file is only the subscribed stuff.

And unsubscribing and resubscribing does not "reset"
anything. Any resetting in Thunderbird must be done
manually. Unlike how other client programs work.


Ahem, I don't use Thunderbird and we weren't talking about Thunderbird. ;-)

  #59  
Old November 5th 19, 08:39 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,sci.physics,alt.checkmate
Lucifer
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Posts: 226
Default Downloading 10 GigaByte videos, left and right.

On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 13:53:31 -0800 (Seattle), Jeff-Relf.Me @. wrote:

INN servers, particularly Individual.NET ( 12$/Year ),
are the best way to update text-only newsgroups.

Binary servers ( Usenet-News.NET, BlockNews.NET )
are far cheaper then Individual.NET,
because 5 $ lasts a lifetime, and they don't censor you.


What do you mean when you put the $ after the number
instead of where it should be?



When it comes to posting, only a binary server will do.

Binary servers have no "xRef:" lines,
and Article Numbers are often useless there.

Also, newsgroups aren't always updated immediately;
sometimes there's a long lag, despite the fact that a peer
( e.g. Individual.NET ) always gets your posts immediately.

My custom-built newsreader, Jeff-Relf.Me/X.HTM,
keeps track of recently used message IDs, not Article Numbers;
so switching servers is painless, no need to re-download newsgroups.

My score file looks like this: Jeff-Relf.Me/Nyms.HTM

Thunderbird is a fork of Firefox;,
so it's _ extremely configurable to someone like me
who's comfortable writing CSS ( to alter the user interface,
webpages, and emails ) and JavaScript extensions.

For me, it's nothing to pop into The Inspector and alter ****.

By the way, Business Class Internet is the cheapest way
to get (truly) unlimited gigabytes.
Downloading 10 GigaByte videos, left and right, is nothing to me.

  #60  
Old November 5th 19, 08:55 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
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Posts: 10,449
Default Thunderbird -OT

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 22:06:07 -0500, Neil wrote:

On 11/4/2019 7:56 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 16:36:03 -0500, Neil wrote:

On 11/4/2019 4:22 PM, Char Jackson wrote:

To the user, the decision to use crosspost management and the decision to
use multiple servers should be independent of one another.

It's easy to understand why cross-post management could be problematic
if multiple servers are used. The xref message numbering could be
irrelevant because the numbering is generated by the server. Different
servers -- different numbering.


Yes, and that's why a newsreader wouldn't/shouldn't use article numbers for
the task. They should use something else that doesn't change, regardless of
which server sourced the article. In my ancient copy of Agent, the choices
are "Subject, Author, Date, Lines" or "Message ID". Either of those two
choices should be pretty safe, no matter which server was involved.

Any of those individual choices have even more problems than xref
numbering. The most reliable alternative would be to combine all of
those elements into one message ID. Even then, the programming gets
pretty complex where multiple servers are involved.


I think you're confused. We're talking about crosspost management, and now
specifically crosspost management across multiple servers. The xref header,
being server specific, clearly won't work. Message IDs are unique to the
article and constant across servers, so that will work. Agent's other
option, a combination of "Subject, Author, Date, Lines" is also fairly
safe, although that can be abused if someone is determined. Other
newsreaders may have even more options, but I'd bet that MIDs are always
one of the options.

 




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