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#46
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Thunderbird -OT
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:52:35 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:
On 11/4/2019 9:36 AM, Char Jackson wrote: On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 09:42:09 -0400, nospam wrote: In article , Neil wrote: I'm not sure how common it is for users to access newsgroups from multiple servers. it's extremely common for binary downloads, which is the overwhelming majority of usenet these days. Agreed, but even the text-only folks have been migrating to the free NSPs Interesting. I hadn't realized that binary downloads is the overwhelming majority of usenet these days. If I had been asked when the majority of Usenet activity shifted from text discussions to binary downloading, I would say it was around 1995, give or take a little. Certainly no later than 1998, but I have some historical markers that say it was well before that. |
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#47
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Thunderbird -OT
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:53:50 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:
On 11/4/2019 11:12 AM, Char Jackson wrote: On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 07:54:50 -0700, Ken Blake wrote: On 11/3/2019 7:42 AM, Ken Blake wrote: On 11/2/2019 7:05 PM, VanguardLH wrote: Ken Blake wrote: Sorry about the off-topic question, but I don't know where else to ask this. I'm been trying Thunderbird 68.2.1 as my newsreader, rather than Agent, which I used to use. I like some things about Thunderbird better than Agent and some less, so I haven't yet decided which to stick with. But I have a Thunderbird question: A cross-posted message is showing up in each folder I open that it's been cross-posted to. Is it possible to have it appear only once? If so, what should I change to make that happen. Thunderbird newsgroup: mozilla.support.thunderbird Mozilla NNTP server: news.mozilla.org, port 119 OK, I just subscribed to it. My memory of a problem was wrong. I'm curious, did you subscribe to it on news.individual.net or on news.mozilla.org? Are the two groups mirrored? news.mozilla.org. As far as I know, news.individual.net doesn't carry it. OK, thanks. I see that Newshosting and AstraWeb both carry such a group but I have no idea if it's the same group that's on the mozilla server. |
#48
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Thunderbird -OT
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 16:36:03 -0500, Neil wrote:
On 11/4/2019 4:22 PM, Char Jackson wrote: To the user, the decision to use crosspost management and the decision to use multiple servers should be independent of one another. It's easy to understand why cross-post management could be problematic if multiple servers are used. The xref message numbering could be irrelevant because the numbering is generated by the server. Different servers -- different numbering. Yes, and that's why a newsreader wouldn't/shouldn't use article numbers for the task. They should use something else that doesn't change, regardless of which server sourced the article. In my ancient copy of Agent, the choices are "Subject, Author, Date, Lines" or "Message ID". Either of those two choices should be pretty safe, no matter which server was involved. |
#49
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Thunderbird -OT
On 11/4/2019 7:56 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 16:36:03 -0500, Neil wrote: On 11/4/2019 4:22 PM, Char Jackson wrote: To the user, the decision to use crosspost management and the decision to use multiple servers should be independent of one another. It's easy to understand why cross-post management could be problematic if multiple servers are used. The xref message numbering could be irrelevant because the numbering is generated by the server. Different servers -- different numbering. Yes, and that's why a newsreader wouldn't/shouldn't use article numbers for the task. They should use something else that doesn't change, regardless of which server sourced the article. In my ancient copy of Agent, the choices are "Subject, Author, Date, Lines" or "Message ID". Either of those two choices should be pretty safe, no matter which server was involved. Any of those individual choices have even more problems than xref numbering. The most reliable alternative would be to combine all of those elements into one message ID. Even then, the programming gets pretty complex where multiple servers are involved. -- best regards, Neil |
#50
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Thunderbird -OT
In article , Neil
wrote: To the user, the decision to use crosspost management and the decision to use multiple servers should be independent of one another. It's easy to understand why cross-post management could be problematic if multiple servers are used. The xref message numbering could be irrelevant because the numbering is generated by the server. Different servers -- different numbering. Yes, and that's why a newsreader wouldn't/shouldn't use article numbers for the task. They should use something else that doesn't change, regardless of which server sourced the article. In my ancient copy of Agent, the choices are "Subject, Author, Date, Lines" or "Message ID". Either of those two choices should be pretty safe, no matter which server was involved. Any of those individual choices have even more problems than xref numbering. The most reliable alternative would be to combine all of those elements into one message ID. Even then, the programming gets pretty complex where multiple servers are involved. it's not that complex. |
#51
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Thunderbird -OT
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 13:43:21 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:
Char Jackson wrote: Ken Blake wrote: I'm been trying Thunderbird 68.2.1 as my newsreader, rather than Agent, which I used to use. I like some things about Thunderbird better than Agent and some less, so I haven't yet decided which to stick with. What kinds of issues are you having with Agent? I was going to suggest posting in alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent but I see that you're already active over there. Ken never mentioned which version of Agent he is/was using. Agent 6.0. It's in every one of his posts. :-) Just kidding, I know what you meant. If it's a free version, that is damn old. Isn't 3.3 the latest free version of Agent? That was released back in 09-Mar-2006. Correct, v3.3 is/was the last free version. It's still available for download from http://www.forteinc.com/agent/download-all.php As for being old, that's not really a problem, is it? It's not like Usenet has changed over the years. I use Agent 2.0, which is even older. As I recall, it was distributed as shareware, not freeware, so users were expected to try and then discard or buy. Try, and then discard, buy, or continue to use with a reduced feature set. It's up to version 8.0 now ($29). Agent 8.0 was released way back on 20-Oct-2014 (http://www.forteinc.com/release/) which was 5 years ago, no improvements since then, and they still want money for it? I suspect their primary and prevalent revenue comes from their Usenet service, not their client. In Forte's defense, it's been $29 since when, the late 1990's? Also, it's arguably one of the better Usenet clients, so I say good for them. I'm not sure what kind of improvements they need to include. My recollection when I tried the free version (don't know if it was 3.3, or a 2.x version) was that it poorly handled multiple servers. I think Agent, back then, only handled one server. The workaround was to make a copy of some config file. You would have a config file for each server. You copied the customized config file atop the standard-named config file before you loaded free Agent. I used a batch file to make the selection which did the overwrite of the config file and then loaded Agent. Ugh, that's an ugly way to do it. Not recommended at all. You're on the right track, though. Early versions officially only supported a single server, but it's trivial to add multi-server support after the fact. Later versions added multi-server support without any tricks/hacks. You obviously tried an earlier version. As I recall, back then (don't know about now), it really didn't have filters. It had searches you could define that acted like filters, but you had to manually run the saved search. Good catch. Filters are one of the features that work during the trial period and after you purchase a registration key. If you use a free version, the filter feature is disabled. If filters are important, and I think they are, you'd have to buy a key. I might've gone with a payware version of Agent, except there are lots of free alternatives. The one that I'm using now (40tude Dialog, abandoned since 2005) that got panned in several trials when I'd get spurred to trial several alternatives to OE (the OE-QuoteFix just wasn't enough, nor the registry tweaks afford in WinXP SP-3). Not until I decided to spend more time defining macros to alter its behavior and learn more regex to define more focused and accurate rules did I stick with Dialog. That's cool. I'm glad you like it. |
#52
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Thunderbird -OT
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 13:52:49 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:
Char Jackson wrote: I'm curious, did you subscribe to it on news.individual.net or on news.mozilla.org? Are the two groups mirrored? For Mozilla's newsgroups: (1) They are actually primarily a mailing list (i.e., you use an e-mail client), and why you don't get a fail on submission and always get a succeed because it doesn't fail until their NNTP-to-SMTP gateway gets it, but there is no feedback from their mail server back to their NNTP server; and, (2) They are not peered anywhere (except to Google Groups which doesn't peer them out from there). OK, thanks, good to know. So the group with that name that exists on non-mozilla servers is probably not peered to the 'official' server. individual.net, eternal-september, albasani, and non-Mozilla NNTP servers don't carry the mozilla.* newsgroups. Newshosting and AstraWeb, as two examples, carry at least 92 mozilla newsgroups. As stated above, however, and based on what you're saying, I assume they are not peered with the official mozilla groups. Is that right? |
#53
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Thunderbird -OT
On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 15:03:45 -0500, Paul wrote:
Char Jackson wrote: On 4 Nov 2019 14:22:20 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote: [big snips ahead, because it's mostly stuff that I agree with and some other stuff that I'm not addressing in this post] Apparently TB currently uses the newsrc file only for recording the subscribed groups, *not* for recording the article numbers of the read articles in those groups. See Tools - Account Settings - your News account - 'Server Settings' - Message Storage - newsrc file: - Browse... You will see one or more server.rc files with entries like: alt.comp.os.windows-10: which means you're subscribed to that group. A *normal* (non-TB) .newsrc file would have: alt.comp.os.windows-10: 1-37201,37225,37231,37233-37235 which means I've read all articles with the indicated ranges and numbers. I.e. I've *not* (yet) read articles 37202-37224, 37226-37230 and 37232. Why TB can't be bothered to do this properly is anyone's guess. Hmmm, that's very interesting. Are you sure that your .newsrc file is indicating which articles you've read? hostinfo.dat has the master newsgroup list blah.blah.rc is the newsrc with the subscribed list, and the usual notation for read articles. group.name.msf is the Mork file, which has status bits such as Read and HasRe. The HasRe bit indicates an article is a reply, so is stuck in front. Thanks, but I was asking specifically about the .newsrc file. The files above appear to be related to Thunderbird. I think Frank has replied and given me what I was looking for. |
#54
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Thunderbird -OT
On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 15:31:47 -0500, Paul wrote:
Ken Blake wrote: On 11/4/2019 9:36 AM, Char Jackson wrote: On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 09:42:09 -0400, nospam wrote: In article , Neil wrote: I'm not sure how common it is for users to access newsgroups from multiple servers. it's extremely common for binary downloads, which is the overwhelming majority of usenet these days. Agreed, but even the text-only folks have been migrating to the free NSPs Interesting. I hadn't realized that binary downloads is the overwhelming majority of usenet these days. On a bandwidth basis, a definite "Yes". The binary groups that are not on your server, there are people running downloads at full rate, all day long. My ISP has a cap on bandwidth. I think my plan was 400GB per month. But, between the hours of 2AM and 7AM, bandwidth is "free". Well, one dude using my ISP, has automation set up to download movies. He runs his link full rate, all month long, 2AM to 7AM, downloading USENET binaries. He was bragging he got 1TB that way in a single month, significantly exceeding his "daytime" 400GB allotment. If he wanted then, he could have a total of 1.4TB of movie files per month. These are the kinds of people that are competing with your paltry few text downloads :-) They use bandwidth by the metric ton. They also pay a significant amount to the NSP, to allow this. The monthly bill will be X for the ISP, and ~3X for the NSP. Your example is upside down. Internet access typically costs far more than NSP binary access. For example, I pay $40/month to my ISP for 300 mbps and unlimited downloads. (300 is actually more like 420, but whatever). Meanwhile, I pay about $7.50 a month to my NSP for unlimited downloads. My situation is not at all unusual. There is also a dude, who appears to have a fairly high end fiber optic cable, who uploads 1TB of movies per day to USENET. And he's doing it, because a DMCA bot issues takedowns at max rate, to try and stop him. And this goes on, on commercial binary servers, a safe distance from your text posting. Uploads are free and unlimited at every binary-capable NSP that I'm aware of. As a result, you can buy the lowest tier of download service and get unlimited uploads. That's why you see archives of over 500 gigs out there. Some schmuck has probably uploaded his entire movie library, encrypted of course, so that he can access it from anywhere with an Internet connection while keeping it out of the hands of others. OK, I see that I just exaggerated. The biggest archive that I see at the moment is just under 254 gigs. Still, it seems like a waste to me to have that data being peered all over the planet. Hmm, that gives me an idea. I don't have storage space to make a backup of my data, so I guess I could just Rar it up, encrypt it, and upload it. NSPs don't expire/delete those files anymore, so my backup would always and forever be available if I need it. Plus, I could do another backup as often I want, especially with my 400mbps upload these days. Naw, I'm not going to do that. Think of this activity, as a "continuous dumpster fire you cannot see" :-) While I'm not interested in the details, I think some of this stuff is quite funny. It's definitely (still) a cat and mouse game. As always, the pirates are a few steps ahead of the movie and music studios. For Hollywood, from their perspective, they'll be trying to figure out how they can "break the business model" of the commercial binary servers. Cuomo played his part in N.A. , but binary servers still run elsewhere. As you'll recall, US-based ISPs all used to include free Usenet access as part of their service bundle, even after they were aware that there was a ton of problematic content being hosted there. They couldn't just drop that part of their service without facing some amount of customer backlash. So along comes Mario Cuomo, in New York, bringing action that made it much easier to drop Usenet access than to fight to keep something that ISPs didn't even want. After what happened in New York, the rest of the US-based ISPs followed suit. So now, if you want Usenet access, you have to get it on your own, including in New York. The same thing happened, albeit not for the same reasons, with unix shells, free web hosting, and a bunch of other stuff. What we get today is just a shadow of what used to be included. The servers may not be big in number, but the implementation must be huge on these things. If you believe their retention figures. The biggest one would be competing with archive.org for disk drives. I've never seen any statistics to back this up, as to exactly how big all the servers together are. Or how it's possible to store and organize bulk postings like this. It's not likely to be a standard copy of INN. There's nothing special about the servers. The things that are 'big' are the storage pools. The storage pools are physically separate from the servers. The servers mostly just broker the user logins and the connections to the storage pools. I guess I shouldn't speak for all NSPs since I've only been in the data centers for 2 of the biggest of them. |
#55
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Thunderbird -OT
Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 15:03:45 -0500, Paul wrote: Char Jackson wrote: On 4 Nov 2019 14:22:20 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote: [big snips ahead, because it's mostly stuff that I agree with and some other stuff that I'm not addressing in this post] Apparently TB currently uses the newsrc file only for recording the subscribed groups, *not* for recording the article numbers of the read articles in those groups. See Tools - Account Settings - your News account - 'Server Settings' - Message Storage - newsrc file: - Browse... You will see one or more server.rc files with entries like: alt.comp.os.windows-10: which means you're subscribed to that group. A *normal* (non-TB) .newsrc file would have: alt.comp.os.windows-10: 1-37201,37225,37231,37233-37235 which means I've read all articles with the indicated ranges and numbers. I.e. I've *not* (yet) read articles 37202-37224, 37226-37230 and 37232. Why TB can't be bothered to do this properly is anyone's guess. Hmmm, that's very interesting. Are you sure that your .newsrc file is indicating which articles you've read? hostinfo.dat has the master newsgroup list blah.blah.rc is the newsrc with the subscribed list, and the usual notation for read articles. group.name.msf is the Mork file, which has status bits such as Read and HasRe. The HasRe bit indicates an article is a reply, so is stuck in front. Thanks, but I was asking specifically about the .newsrc file. The files above appear to be related to Thunderbird. I think Frank has replied and given me what I was looking for. hostinfo.dat is the entire newsgroup list. The .rc file is only the subscribed stuff. And unsubscribing and resubscribing does not "reset" anything. Any resetting in Thunderbird must be done manually. Unlike how other client programs work. Paul |
#56
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Thunderbird -OT
On 4 Nov 2019 21:21:41 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Char Jackson wrote: On 4 Nov 2019 14:22:20 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote: [big snips ahead, because it's mostly stuff that I agree with and some other stuff that I'm not addressing in this post] Apparently TB currently uses the newsrc file only for recording the subscribed groups, *not* for recording the article numbers of the read articles in those groups. See Tools - Account Settings - your News account - 'Server Settings' - Message Storage - newsrc file: - Browse... You will see one or more server.rc files with entries like: alt.comp.os.windows-10: which means you're subscribed to that group. A *normal* (non-TB) .newsrc file would have: alt.comp.os.windows-10: 1-37201,37225,37231,37233-37235 which means I've read all articles with the indicated ranges and numbers. I.e. I've *not* (yet) read articles 37202-37224, 37226-37230 and 37232. Why TB can't be bothered to do this properly is anyone's guess. Hmmm, that's very interesting. Are you sure that your .newsrc file is indicating which articles you've read? Yes. It's what a .newsrc file is supposed to do. It's easy to see/prove by not reading a few articles (or (re-)marking them as unread), the unread status will be reflected in the .newsrc file. Well, shucks, you're exactly right! Sorry about that. It indeed works just as you said, reflecting read status. SNIP As explained, standard .newsrc usage shows articles *read* (and hence retrieved), *not* (just) retrieved. Coming to think of it, *when* does your newsreader mark/consider an article as read? Doesn't the fact that there can be a comma separated list in your .newsrc file mean that you *did* read those articles? Why would your newsreader retrieve those articles, if you weren't reading them? I think you addressed this in your next post. Agent can be used both online and offline, but I only use it offline. As a result, I retrieve tons of articles that never get read. I subscribe to groups, some for multiple years already, that I've never read. I don not know if there are any newsreaders which are multi-server *and* use (multiple) .newsrc files for read status of cross-posted articles. So we know that Agent doesn't do it that way, but we don't know that it can't be done that way. Well, let me clarify that when I talk about Agent, I'm referring to version 2.0, which is officially single server. It's easy enough to configure additional servers, but that's not officially supported until a later version. I've never used the multi-server versions, so I can't say how they behave in this regard. Before retirement, I ran News servers in our tiny 150K employee company. So I always had access to 'my' own News server. So after retirement (in 2003), I wanted to have similar functionality/speed. Enter Hamster and I never looked back! :-) Excellent. In my case, I specialize in load balancers, proxies (for web and anything else customers need), scripted rules for traffic management, firewalls, etc. That's why my personal virtual lab is full of load balancers and proxies. Good fun. |
#57
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Thunderbird -OT
On 4 Nov 2019 22:54:48 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Sigh! It finally hit me! The difference in handling - marking read versus marking retrieved - is very likely not 'The Standard (TM)' versus Agent, but an online reader (mine, tin) versus an offline reader (yours, Agent). Well, I appreciate the additional consideration you've obviously given this topic, but you were right the first time. An online reader only retrieves an article if the user - implicitly or explicitly - requests it. After displaying the article and moving to next one, the previous article is gone. so there's no concept of a 'has been retrieved' status. So an online newsreader only records 'has been read' status in the .newsrc file. Agreed (now). An offline newsreader retrieves articles and keeps them for some time. So for an offline newsreader, there *is* a concept of a 'has been retrieved' status. *And* - like an online newsreader - it has/ should_have a 'has been read' status. So an online newsreader only records 'has been read' status and an offline newsreader records both 'has been retrieved' status and 'has been read' status. You're right, but I had it wrong. The .newsrc file does indeed indicate read status, as you've been saying, and Agent uses a second group-specific database to keep everything else that it needs in order to function as an offline reader. To be compatible with 'standard' newsreaders, Agent should record 'has been read' status in its .newsrc file and hence should record 'has been retrieved' status in some other way/file. It does. If Agent is doing what you say it's doing - recording 'has been retrieved' status in its .newsrc file - it's doing it incorrectly, i.e. in a non-standard/incompatible way. No, once I went back and tested it, as you suggested I should do, I saw that you were right. It does show read status. I hope this clears up most of the confusion (without creating/adding any new). Thanks for the clarity. |
#58
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Thunderbird -OT
On Tue, 05 Nov 2019 00:49:17 -0500, Paul wrote:
Char Jackson wrote: On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 15:03:45 -0500, Paul wrote: Char Jackson wrote: On 4 Nov 2019 14:22:20 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote: [big snips ahead, because it's mostly stuff that I agree with and some other stuff that I'm not addressing in this post] Apparently TB currently uses the newsrc file only for recording the subscribed groups, *not* for recording the article numbers of the read articles in those groups. See Tools - Account Settings - your News account - 'Server Settings' - Message Storage - newsrc file: - Browse... You will see one or more server.rc files with entries like: alt.comp.os.windows-10: which means you're subscribed to that group. A *normal* (non-TB) .newsrc file would have: alt.comp.os.windows-10: 1-37201,37225,37231,37233-37235 which means I've read all articles with the indicated ranges and numbers. I.e. I've *not* (yet) read articles 37202-37224, 37226-37230 and 37232. Why TB can't be bothered to do this properly is anyone's guess. Hmmm, that's very interesting. Are you sure that your .newsrc file is indicating which articles you've read? hostinfo.dat has the master newsgroup list blah.blah.rc is the newsrc with the subscribed list, and the usual notation for read articles. group.name.msf is the Mork file, which has status bits such as Read and HasRe. The HasRe bit indicates an article is a reply, so is stuck in front. Thanks, but I was asking specifically about the .newsrc file. The files above appear to be related to Thunderbird. I think Frank has replied and given me what I was looking for. hostinfo.dat is the entire newsgroup list. The .rc file is only the subscribed stuff. And unsubscribing and resubscribing does not "reset" anything. Any resetting in Thunderbird must be done manually. Unlike how other client programs work. Ahem, I don't use Thunderbird and we weren't talking about Thunderbird. ;-) |
#59
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Downloading 10 GigaByte videos, left and right.
On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 13:53:31 -0800 (Seattle), Jeff-Relf.Me @. wrote:
INN servers, particularly Individual.NET ( 12$/Year ), are the best way to update text-only newsgroups. Binary servers ( Usenet-News.NET, BlockNews.NET ) are far cheaper then Individual.NET, because 5 $ lasts a lifetime, and they don't censor you. What do you mean when you put the $ after the number instead of where it should be? When it comes to posting, only a binary server will do. Binary servers have no "xRef:" lines, and Article Numbers are often useless there. Also, newsgroups aren't always updated immediately; sometimes there's a long lag, despite the fact that a peer ( e.g. Individual.NET ) always gets your posts immediately. My custom-built newsreader, Jeff-Relf.Me/X.HTM, keeps track of recently used message IDs, not Article Numbers; so switching servers is painless, no need to re-download newsgroups. My score file looks like this: Jeff-Relf.Me/Nyms.HTM Thunderbird is a fork of Firefox;, so it's _ extremely configurable to someone like me who's comfortable writing CSS ( to alter the user interface, webpages, and emails ) and JavaScript extensions. For me, it's nothing to pop into The Inspector and alter ****. By the way, Business Class Internet is the cheapest way to get (truly) unlimited gigabytes. Downloading 10 GigaByte videos, left and right, is nothing to me. |
#60
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Thunderbird -OT
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 22:06:07 -0500, Neil wrote:
On 11/4/2019 7:56 PM, Char Jackson wrote: On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 16:36:03 -0500, Neil wrote: On 11/4/2019 4:22 PM, Char Jackson wrote: To the user, the decision to use crosspost management and the decision to use multiple servers should be independent of one another. It's easy to understand why cross-post management could be problematic if multiple servers are used. The xref message numbering could be irrelevant because the numbering is generated by the server. Different servers -- different numbering. Yes, and that's why a newsreader wouldn't/shouldn't use article numbers for the task. They should use something else that doesn't change, regardless of which server sourced the article. In my ancient copy of Agent, the choices are "Subject, Author, Date, Lines" or "Message ID". Either of those two choices should be pretty safe, no matter which server was involved. Any of those individual choices have even more problems than xref numbering. The most reliable alternative would be to combine all of those elements into one message ID. Even then, the programming gets pretty complex where multiple servers are involved. I think you're confused. We're talking about crosspost management, and now specifically crosspost management across multiple servers. The xref header, being server specific, clearly won't work. Message IDs are unique to the article and constant across servers, so that will work. Agent's other option, a combination of "Subject, Author, Date, Lines" is also fairly safe, although that can be abused if someone is determined. Other newsreaders may have even more options, but I'd bet that MIDs are always one of the options. |
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