Bit of a historical question: MS-DOS

On Sat, 2 Jun 2012 15:42:19 -0400, David H. Lipman wrote:

From: "VanguardLH"

David H. Lipman wrote:

They couldn't all be in the root as there was a limit of 64 files in
the root.

Depends on the storage media which was never mentioned. For example, a
360KB 5.25" floppy has 7 sectors allocated to the FAT, sectors are 512
bytes in size, and each entry (file or directory) consumes 32 bytes in
the FAT, so that floppy can hold 112 entries:

7 sectors * 512 bytes/sector / 32 bytes/entry = 112 entries

Summary of maximum entry count for MS/PC-DOS (root folder only):
8" 250 KB floppy: 68
8" 500 KB floppy: 68
8" 1.2 MB floppy: 192
5.25" 180 KB floppy: 64
5.25" 360 KB floppy: 112
5.25" 1.2 MB floppy: 224
3.5" 720 KB floppy: 112
3.5" 1.44 MB floppy: 224
3.5" 2.88 MB floppy: 240
3.5" 1.68 MB DMF floppy: 16 (*)
Hard disks FAT12/16/32: 512

(*) Microsoft apps were often distributed using these hence the need to
invent CAB files to deliver a larger number of files.

Not all media formats are listed above. Many more are listed at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk but I wasn't going to waste
time to check what were they max entry count in the root folder. For an
alternate listing of "Root dir entries" on media size, read
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/75131.

If long filenames are supported then the max count goes down due to use
of more bytes per entry in the FAT to store the alternate long name.

MS-DOS 2.0 introduced directories that could hold a lot more files and
[sub]directories: 4068 for FAT12, 64K for FAT16, 268,173,300 for FAT32
(using the default cluster sizes). That didn't alleviate the maximum
entry count in the root folder.

Are we having fun yet roaming down reminiscence lane?

Nah, we haven't touched QEMM, Extended vs. Expanded RAM ;-)

Groan!

Can't say that I miss that aspect of things.

Thanx for the data correction.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 13:37:29 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:

In my experiences with MS-DOS, I've never seen 4dos.exe. The only thing
that I saw was command.com... msdos.sys & io.sys.

Because you didn't buy and install 4dos.

It was an independent product.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Sat, 2 Jun 2012 16:17:25 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 13:37:29 -0600, GreyCloud wrote:

In my experiences with MS-DOS, I've never seen 4dos.exe. The only thing
that I saw was command.com... msdos.sys & io.sys.

Because you didn't buy and install 4dos.

It was an independent product.


It was a *wonderful* product (although I can hardly remember the
details of it, I remember liking it very much). But I do remember once
writing a batch file of about 4000 lines!

On 6/2/2012 12:42 PM PT, David H. Lipman typed:

Nah, we haven't touched QEMM, Extended vs. Expanded RAM ;-)

No no! XMS, EMS, conventional memory (EVIL!!), config.sys, autoexec.bat,
etc.
--
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On 6/2/2012 8:54 PM PT, Ant typed:

Nah, we haven't touched QEMM, Extended vs. Expanded RAM ;-)

No no! XMS, EMS, conventional memory (EVIL!!), config.sys, autoexec.bat,
etc.

Oh remember, DoubleSpace, Stacker, etc.?
--
"An ant is a wise creature for itself, but it is a shrewd thing in an
orchard or garden." --Francis Bacon
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/ /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o o| |
\ _ / If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
( ) If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.

On 02/06/2012 10:50 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
It's possible they don't carry some newsgroups that other NNTP servers
carry. Based on their primitive web site and that they are NOT a Usenet
backbone provider (e.g., Highwinds), and because it looks like they only
carry text-only newsgroups (which is a bit pricey at $30/yr), it's quite
possible they don't carry some newsgroups. *.msdos may be some of those
they don't carry. Some NNTP servers don't carry as many newsgroups as
others (and some carry lots of garbage newsgroups).

Have your newsreader refresh its list of newsgroups; i.e., have it
re-read the list of groups from the NNTP server. Then search on
"msdos". I'm using Albasani as my NNTP provider and they show 16 groups
with *.msdos for a name. Eternal-September has the same newsgroups.
There are few in Albasani that aren't on Eternal-September and visa
versa but most are duplicated on all NNTP servers.

Not to prolong this sideline discussion much further, the problem was
not whether or not they carried the newsgroups, it's whether or not I
even searched for one, because I was not aware of them.

Yousuf Khan

On 02/06/2012 3:37 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
In my experiences with MS-DOS, I've never seen 4dos.exe. The only thing
that I saw was command.com... msdos.sys & io.sys.
The bios usually has to do with low-level system calls. I used to have
the IBM reference books on those system calls, but never saw things like
CD, COPY, REN, etc. in their book.
I suppose I could fire up the old IBM I do have and try this myself.

4DOS was an alternate command.com, which you had to buy separately. The
company behind it eventually sold the rights to it to Norton, which
appropriately renamed it to NDOS. Exact same functionality as 4DOS, but
different name. It basically was an improved command.com with many
advanced features dedicated to making the user interface easier (history
recall, sophisticated DOS-based menu creation, etc., etc.). If you're
familiar with Linux or Unix, think of it like being the difference
between "bash" and "sh": i.e. basically exactly the same functionality
and then some.

Back in those days I also used to multitask DOS programs using Desqview.
The combination of Desqview and 4DOS was probably the ultimate
command-line oriented operating system for PC's.

Yousuf Khan

On 02/06/2012 9:46 AM, Bob I wrote:
C:\DOS

https://scs.senecac.on.ca/~albert.pa...00/doscmd.html

Wish I'd found that site when I was doing my Google search before asking
here. It's hard to get the exact right search terms.

Yousuf Khan

On 03/06/2012 2:28 AM, DK wrote:
In , wrote:
On 6/2/2012 8:54 PM PT, Ant typed:

Nah, we haven't touched QEMM, Extended vs. Expanded RAM ;-)

No no! XMS, EMS, conventional memory (EVIL!!), config.sys, autoexec.bat,
etc.

Oh remember, DoubleSpace, Stacker, etc.?

I do. Stacker was absolutely great!

But DoubleSpace was horrible. I lost a lot of data due to that one.

Yousuf Khan

David H. Lipman wrote:

Nah, we haven't touched QEMM, Extended vs. Expanded RAM ;-)

Yeah, I remember QEMM. I remember back then of paying something like
$2500 for a full-sized memory board fully populated with all of 4 MB of
RAM. All the chips were socketed so you bought tubes of memory chips
and had to insert them yourself. Cost was more than my entire computer.

And to think that edlin.com is still with us from all the way back then.

GreyCloud wrote:

In my experiences with MS-DOS, I've never seen 4dos.exe. The only thing
that I saw was command.com... msdos.sys & io.sys.
The bios usually has to do with low-level system calls. I used to have
the IBM reference books on those system calls, but never saw things like
CD, COPY, REN, etc. in their book.
I suppose I could fire up the old IBM I do have and try this myself.

4DOS
Caldera OpenDOS
aka Novell DOS (after Novell acquired Digital Research)
aka DR-DOS (DR = Digital Research)
FreeDOS
aka PD-DOS

Those are the ones that I remember. There were a slew of "hobbyist" DOS
shell alternatives but those projects were too tiny to have any impact
regarding usage of alternative or replacement command interpreters.
Whether or not you even know the DOS shell can be replaced really
depends on how long you have been using PCs. Many were introduced as
enhanced alternatives to MS/PC-DOS (i.e., richer and more powerful
commands and features) or as a consequence of Microsoft's announcement
that it would no longer sell MS-DOS (c.1994?).

Anyone that bothered to learn MS-DOS would find out how to edit the
config.sys file and what all of its settings meant. That meant you
would have learned about the 'shell' and what it was for. However, the
vast majority of users never bothered to crack open the config files or
even look at the options in their apps. They weren't interested in
knowing the OS and often understood or used just a fraction of the apps
they installed. Using computers wasn't fun for them. It was a chore.
It's similar to the difference in users of cars: some like to work on
their own cars to fix or enhance them while others just want to use them
and pay someone else to repair them.

On 03/06/2012 1:56 AM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 02/06/2012 9:46 AM, Bob I wrote:
C:\DOS

https://scs.senecac.on.ca/~albert.pa...00/doscmd.html

Wish I'd found that site when I was doing my Google search before asking
here. It's hard to get the exact right search terms.

Yousuf Khan


I've found if you use a longer search phrase, usually it's more likely
you'll find what you want. Eg, DOS Commands location vs DOS Commands.
Rearranging the word order is always worth a try, too.

HTH,
Wolf K.

Remember DOS Shell?
--
"What is that?" "Some kind of insect?" "It's an ant." "Girl, you needed
an exterminator. She had ants on her face." "Well, these aren't your
garden-variety dumpster ants." "And they aren't ... to decomp." "Why are
they in her stomach?" "La hormiga culona--leaf cutter ants. It's a
Colombian dish." "Are you saying that people eat them?" "Fried." "Okay,
so we are looking for a club that serves fried ants." --CSI: Miami
(Wannabe episode; #218)
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
/ /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o o| |
\ _ / If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
( ) If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.

On 03/06/2012 8:25 AM, Wolf K wrote:
On 03/06/2012 1:56 AM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 02/06/2012 9:46 AM, Bob I wrote:
C:\DOS

https://scs.senecac.on.ca/~albert.pa...00/doscmd.html

Wish I'd found that site when I was doing my Google search before asking
here. It's hard to get the exact right search terms.

Yousuf Khan


I've found if you use a longer search phrase, usually it's more likely
you'll find what you want. Eg, DOS Commands location vs DOS Commands.
Rearranging the word order is always worth a try, too.

I think I actually used that search term, "dos commands location" or
maybe even "external dos commands location".

Yousuf Khan

On 03/06/2012 12:21 PM, Ant wrote:
Remember DOS Shell?

Yes, but I never used it, by that point I was already using DOS for
several years and I was already familiar with the command-line.

Yousuf Khan