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#16
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Michael C wrote:
Last night I upgraded a customers machine with new motherboard, cpu, memory, video card, netcard and soundcard. The only thing that was the same was the HDD, dvd drive, tape backup and scsi card. I was having trouble with the internet so I phoned MS to activate XP again. After it activated I asked him what the limit is to hardware change before XP won't activate. He said that XP oem has to always remain on the same PC to be activated. In return I asked "what constitutes the same PC?". He kept going around in circles and not answering my question and just stating that it has to always remain on the same PC. He never gave me a definition of what "same PC" means. In the end I asked if it was more of a policy than a technical limitation and he said "thank you for calling microsoft to activate your software" and hung up! I suspect that means that it can be installed on a completely new machine and will activate ok. Is that true? Yes, as long as you don't tell them that it is a totally different computer, they can figure it out from the encrypted PA data, so they will activate you. Some MS employees CLAIM that changes the motherboard makes it a new computer, so be careful about what you tell PA reps, as you might get one that is of that opinion. PA is a total waste of time, and if it weren't for the errors it throws at people, it would be a complete farce! http://www.microscum.com/mmpafaq/ -- Peace! Kurt Self-anointed Moderator microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea http://microscum.com/mscommunity "Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron! "Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei" |
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#17
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Woody wrote:
from what Mike Brannigan , an MS employee and frequent poster , has been saying of late is that it's up to the oem to determine when the original machine is no longer the original machine . definately a major retreat from earlier interpretations of the ms oem eula . No, that's no "retreat." That's what the official policy, as stated by Microsoft employees, has always been. -- Bruce Chambers Help us help you: http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once. - RAH |
#18
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I just sent the following to my MS Partner contact at MS:
******** I have read the EULA, the OEM site documents, but as a MS Partner company I can not get clarification on what constitutes a "Computer" for the OEM licensing agreement. The agreement states that the OEM license is tied to the first "Computer" that it is installed on, so what single or group of components does MS strictly consider as the "Computer". I have thought it was the motherboard, but the EULA doesn't state that, others have suggested that it's the power cord. Please provide a MS answer that clearly defines what constitutes a "Computer" so that my customers can upgrade their computers without violating their OEM licensing agreements. ******* When I get a reply I will post it - they say it could be 24 hours for a reply. -- -- remove 999 in order to email me |
#20
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T. Waters wrote:
Wonder if you mean that activation will be denied under these circumstances? How do you know this? "Can vs May," or, "one thing I remember from the first grade." Carey Frisch [MVP] wrote: Q. "I suspect that means that it can be installed on a completely new machine and will activate ok. Is that true?" A. Not if its an OEM version....only a "Retail Version". Last night I upgraded a customers machine with new motherboard, cpu, memory, video card, netcard and soundcard. The only thing that was the same was the HDD, dvd drive, tape backup and scsi card. I was having trouble with the internet so I phoned MS to activate XP again. After it activated I asked him what the limit is to hardware change before XP won't activate. He said that XP oem has to always remain on the same PC to be activated. In return I asked "what constitutes the same PC?". He kept going around in circles and not answering my question and just stating that it has to always remain on the same PC. He never gave me a definition of what "same PC" means. In the end I asked if it was more of a policy than a technical limitation and he said "thank you for calling microsoft to activate your software" and hung up! I suspect that means that it can be installed on a completely new machine and will activate ok. Is that true? --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0519-0, 05/09/2005 Tested on: 5/10/2005 6:36:44 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com Carey wouldn't know, all his aswers are from other sources, not from personal experience. Except for having access to the MS newsgroups, I doubt he knows how to do anything else with his computer! -- Peace! Kurt Self-anointed Moderator microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea http://microscum.com/mscommunity "Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron! "Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei" |
#21
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Michael C wrote:
Last night I upgraded a customers machine with new motherboard, cpu, memory, video card, netcard and soundcard. The only thing that was the same was the HDD, dvd drive, tape backup and scsi card. I was having trouble with the internet so I phoned MS to activate XP again. After it activated I asked him what the limit is to hardware change before XP won't activate. He said that XP oem has to always remain on the same PC to be activated. In return I asked "what constitutes the same PC?". He kept going around in circles and not answering my question and just stating that it has to always remain on the same PC. He never gave me a definition of what "same PC" means. In the end I asked if it was more of a policy than a technical limitation and he said "thank you for calling microsoft to activate your software" and hung up! According to the EULA, an OEM license may not be transferred from one distinct PC to another PC. However, this most emphatically does not prohibit one from repairing or upgrading the PC on which an OEM license is installed. Now, some people believe that the motherboard is the key component that defines the "original computer," but the OEM EULA does not make any such distinction. Others have said that one could successfully argue that it's the PC's case that is the deciding component, as that is where one is instructed to affix the OEM CoA label w/Product Key. Again, the EULA does not specifically define any single component as the computer. (Licensed Microsoft Systems Builders, who are allowed to distribute OEM licenses with computers they sell, are contractually obligated to "define" the computer as the motherboard, but this limitation/definition can't be applied to the end user until the EULA is re-written.) Microsoft has, to date, been very careful _not_ publicly to define when an incrementally upgraded computer ceases to be the original computer. The closest I've ever seen a Microsoft employee come to this definition (in a public forum) is to tell the person making the inquiry to consult the PC's manufacturer. As the OEM license's support is solely the responsibility of said manufacturer, they should determine what sort of hardware changes to allow before the warranty and support agreements are voided. To paraphrase: An incrementally upgraded computer ceases to be the original computer, as pertains to the OEM EULA, only when the *OEM* says it's a different computer. If you've built the system yourself, and used a generic OEM CD, then _you_ are the "OEM," and _you_ get to decide when you'll no longer support your product. I suspect that means that it can be installed on a completely new machine and will activate ok. Is that true? That depends on the type of OEM installation CD provided. Major OEMs frequently design the CDs so that the license *cannot* be installed on other hardware. OEM Recovery/Restore CDs are the same. Further, Microsoft has just tightened the activation policy in regards to OEM licenses distributed by the major OEMs. A generic OEM CD, however, will install on any compatible computer. So, can an OEM license be moved to a completely different computer? Yes, if CD isn't locked to a specific BIOS, if the second computer is compatible, and if the license holder lacks the integrity to abide by the terms of the EULA, to which he has already agreed to respect. (If you have such a customer, insist that he pay in cash. You won't be able to trust his checks or his credit.) -- Bruce Chambers Help us help you: http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once. - RAH |
#22
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Leythos wrote:
I just sent the following to my MS Partner contact at MS: ******** I have read the EULA, the OEM site documents, but as a MS Partner company I can not get clarification on what constitutes a "Computer" for the OEM licensing agreement. The agreement states that the OEM license is tied to the first "Computer" that it is installed on, so what single or group of components does MS strictly consider as the "Computer". I have thought it was the motherboard, but the EULA doesn't state that, others have suggested that it's the power cord. Please provide a MS answer that clearly defines what constitutes a "Computer" so that my customers can upgrade their computers without violating their OEM licensing agreements. ******* When I get a reply I will post it - they say it could be 24 hours for a reply. -- Worthless. It is not in the EULA, no one agreed to it. Even the EULA is not the law, and if MS wants to sue someone over a breach of EULA MS has to prove it in court. Just because something is actually in the EULA, doesn't mean it's enforceable. And if it is not in the EULA, MS can't PROVE in a court of law that the END USER ever agreed to it! If a contractual term is not in that contract, and not agreed to by both parties, does it make a sound? -- Peace! Kurt Self-anointed Moderator microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea http://microscum.com/mscommunity "Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron! "Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei" |
#23
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On Tue, 10 May 2005 23:56:41 GMT, Leythos
wrote: In article , says... the latest from mike brannigan is that it's the oem that determines when the original computer is no longer the original computer . so who built the computer , who bought the oem os and who installed the os on that computer determines the rules as far as i read it . Not that I want to get into this again, but if you go into the OEM site at MS, read around the documents, You are not bound to anything MS has on their 'site, that didn't exist at the of purchase and was prominently displayed to the customer on the packaging or upon direct inquiry, a very specific pointing to that exact document as it existed then. However, this of course means that should the issue arise, one would need have proof of the then-current documentation provided. it seemed very clear to me that the OEM software is tied to the first computer it's installed on, and that the computer, by MS's documents on the OEM site, indicate that the Motherboard is the "computer". When I, as a personal choice, choose OEM, I limit the scope of the license to the motherboard. I think that is reasonable... up to a point. It becomes questionable when an OEM box has it's board fail and the OEM wants 50% the cost of the system to replace the board so user seeks another compatible board. That to me isn't same thing as replacing : board, memory, CPU, video, etc, etc. In other words, I don't find it reasonable that only the case remained the same even though that's usually where the license sticker is. Therein lies the problem for MS, to clearly define this. Anything they didn't define at the time can't be added after the fact. |
#24
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On Wed, 11 May 2005 00:28:46 GMT, Leythos
wrote: I also said that it's up to each person to interpret what MS means until the actually call MS and ask for clarification - which I don't expect many to admit to doing. That's where you went wrong. MS cannot LATER clarify, further restrict a license. There is nothing a call to MS can tell you that isn't already in the license as shipped. I'm not suggesting it would be fair to upgrade the entire system a piece and a time and think an OEM license is still valid for it, BUT on the other hand neither the seller nor buyer of the license can further redefine it later. |
#25
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Bruce Chambers wrote:
Michael C wrote: Last night I upgraded a customers machine with new motherboard, cpu, memory, video card, netcard and soundcard. The only thing that was the same was the HDD, dvd drive, tape backup and scsi card. I was having trouble with the internet so I phoned MS to activate XP again. After it activated I asked him what the limit is to hardware change before XP won't activate. He said that XP oem has to always remain on the same PC to be activated. In return I asked "what constitutes the same PC?". He kept going around in circles and not answering my question and just stating that it has to always remain on the same PC. He never gave me a definition of what "same PC" means. In the end I asked if it was more of a policy than a technical limitation and he said "thank you for calling microsoft to activate your software" and hung up! According to the EULA, an OEM license may not be transferred from one distinct PC to another PC. However, this most emphatically does not prohibit one from repairing or upgrading the PC on which an OEM license is installed. Now, some people believe that the motherboard is the key component that defines the "original computer," but the OEM EULA does not make any such distinction. Others have said that one could successfully argue that it's the PC's case that is the deciding component, as that is where one is instructed to affix the OEM CoA label w/Product Key. Again, the EULA does not specifically define any single component as the computer. (Licensed Microsoft Systems Builders, who are allowed to distribute OEM licenses with computers they sell, are contractually obligated to "define" the computer as the motherboard, but this limitation/definition can't be applied to the end user until the EULA is re-written.) Microsoft has, to date, been very careful _not_ publicly to define when an incrementally upgraded computer ceases to be the original computer. The closest I've ever seen a Microsoft employee come to this definition (in a public forum) is to tell the person making the inquiry to consult the PC's manufacturer. As the OEM license's support is solely the responsibility of said manufacturer, they should determine what sort of hardware changes to allow before the warranty and support agreements are voided. To paraphrase: An incrementally upgraded computer ceases to be the original computer, as pertains to the OEM EULA, only when the *OEM* says it's a different computer. If you've built the system yourself, and used a generic OEM CD, then _you_ are the "OEM," and _you_ get to decide when you'll no longer support your product. I suspect that means that it can be installed on a completely new machine and will activate ok. Is that true? That depends on the type of OEM installation CD provided. Major OEMs frequently design the CDs so that the license *cannot* be installed on other hardware. OEM Recovery/Restore CDs are the same. Further, Microsoft has just tightened the activation policy in regards to OEM licenses distributed by the major OEMs. A generic OEM CD, however, will install on any compatible computer. So, can an OEM license be moved to a completely different computer? Yes, if CD isn't locked to a specific BIOS, if the second computer is compatible, and if the license holder lacks the integrity to abide by the terms of the EULA, to which he has already agreed to respect. (If you have such a customer, insist that he pay in cash. You won't be able to trust his checks or his credit.) Bruce your explanation of OEM support of Windows XP was very enlightening You got to the actual point of limiting the OEM to the first machine. So I found it odd that you summed up that brilliant and rational explanation with a simplistic statement as to the morals of a person who moves OEM XP to another computer. They are not violating the MS intent of freeing the OEM from supporting an OS on a computer the OEM did not build! Are you devoutly religious, by any chance? |
#26
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On Tue, 10 May 2005 23:42:05 GMT, Leythos
wrote: Actually, you can call MS and ask for Licensing information, not the activation drones, MS proper and ask for a email/document explaining licensing. No, you quite specifically cannot do this. It is not binding to add terms and not legal to try to enfore them. Of all possible avenues, MS cannot supply you with "Further" details about a license that weren't already part of that license. If someone simply can't find their EULA then they might be SOL. In the grand scheme of software licensing, it's up to you to determine what is right/wrong and what you feel you can get away with. Some of us are hard-line and purchase a OEM copy considering that additional MS documents call the Motherboard the defining component, That's not "hard-line", that's ignorance. If the license agreement that came with the product specifies the motherboard, then it is (a) defining component. It is improper and pointless to make any mention at all of "additional MS documents". If those documents had told you that you are bound to reformat your hard drive every 7 days, would you do that too? while others look at the EULA and say that the power cord could be the single defining component. It's all in what you are comfortable with until you ASK MS legal what they mean. No reasonable person will conclude the power cord is a defining component, UNLESS the license was purchased with that cord, if the EULA allows it. It is NOT "what you are comfortable with until you ask MS legal". MS legal cannot add, subtract, or redefine a EULA after the sale. |
#27
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In article ,
says... And different MS employees tell a different story about at what point does upgrading components constitute a new and different computer. Leythos you really should just give it up! The OP actually talked to a MS employee and couldn't get a straight answer out of him. And why is that? Because MS rather keep the FUD surrounding when upgrading a computer turns it into another computer by defining it in the EULA. MS KNOWS if pressed their POST EULA FUD is in no way enforceable. What part of "my personal" did you miss - Hell, I even stated your and Alias's positions of being able to do anything you want. I've not made a statement as to one or the other being fact in this thread. -- -- remove 999 in order to email me |
#28
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In article ,
says... Those of us that ain't MS partners and have absolutely no conflict of interest when it comes to having business dealings with MS have never agree, and most have never even seen the password protected web site of FUD about the mobo is the computer and bill gates is god! And I stated that he (actually anyone) could do what they want on a personal level. I never stated that anyone has to follow anything. You are remembering and making more out of it this time than I said - I DID NOT TAKE SIDES OR A STANCE ON IT THIS TIME. I EVEN SUGGESTED IT WAS UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL. -- -- remove 999 in order to email me |
#29
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Not that I want to get into this again
why not , you feel free to spread youre opinion When I, as a personal choice, choose OEM, I limit the scope of the license to the motherboard. why ? to place limitations on your customers that don't exist ? |
#30
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Bruce Chambers wrote:
Woody wrote: from what Mike Brannigan , an MS employee and frequent poster , has been saying of late is that it's up to the oem to determine when the original machine is no longer the original machine . definately a major retreat from earlier interpretations of the ms oem eula . No, that's no "retreat." That's what the official policy, as stated by Microsoft employees, has always been. Tell it to Lameboy, and his password-protected system builder web page! -- Peace! Kurt Self-anointed Moderator microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea http://microscum.com/mscommunity "Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron! "Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei" |
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