Question about op systems

Drew wrote:
On 9/14/2014 9:00 PM, . . .winston wrote:
A wrote:
Drew wrote:
Hey all. Getting a high end system put together and was wondering about
preferences for future.
I am wondering which way to go on the op system. Win 8.1 64, win 8.1
pro
or win 7 pro ? Many here will say stay away from 8 and others will say
go 8.1 and skip 7...If I stayed with win 7 I would certainly look into
start8 or classic shell. Let the scrap begin!!

Specs will be Intel core i5 4690k processor
16gigs 1866 ram
Nvidia 780 gtx 3 gig video card
2 256 gig ssd's 1 for op system 1 for programs and some light gaming
2 terrabyte drive for storage. music etc
I seldom if ever use media centre as I use itunes etc for music

I would get 7 while you still can. You can always upgrade later if 9
proves to be worth it. If you really want high end, get an Intel i7.



While Windows 7 has very loyal following and is a good o/s, imo, if
planning on moving to a new and other o/s in the future then Windows 8.1
Pro would be my choice for a new system.

Why?
Upgrading from Windows 7 to Windows 8.1 is a clean install (programs
need to be reinstalled). Later o/s will most likely follow suit for
moving from Win7.

Windows 8.1 is only available in full version software not upgrade-ware.
Likewise, Win9 will also be full version software.

Moving to a later o/s (e.g. Win9 or later) is likely to provide (even
though its full version software) the ability to upgrade with user
settings and programs intact.

If your system is being built...it would be extremely beneficial if your
system builder/OEM manufacturer also provides your software on
installable media.
- i.e. if your route to reinstall the software is by restoring to the
as-shipped PC condition then consider the points noted above and how
much effort and time you are willing to buy-in to.

Good luck.


I have decided upon further review (LOL) to go with the i7 and higher
graphics and possibly win8.1 (not sure whether I will go with the pro or
not)
My question to Winston would be "How do you know that win 9 will not be
available as a upgrade?"

Microsoft announced at the time of 8.1 that full version software (not
upgrade ware) was the current direction.
qp
One shift to note in Windows 8.1 is that we will be offering “full
version software� at retail and online for download that does not
require a previous version of Windows in order to be installed. The copy
of Windows 8 that is currently available for sale at retail and online
is an “upgrade version.� This shift allows more flexibility for
customers in specific technical scenarios and is in response to feedback
we’ve received. It will be easier for those consumers who want to build
PCs from scratch, run Windows 8.1 in Virtual Machine (VM) environments,
or run Windows 8.1 on a second hard drive partition.
qp

Since 8.1 release, future o/s will be "full version software" that can
be installed on any computer, whether it has an earlier version of
Windows installed or not effectively eliminating any need to find a
present or insert a prior qualifying o/s media.

Bottom line...if you desire Win8.1 or later it will be full version only.


--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

On 15/09/2014 23:51, Ken Blake wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 21:56:36 +0200, Fokke Nauta
wrote:

On 15/09/2014 19:11, Ken Blake wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 07:13:01 -0400, Charlie wrote:

Win 8.1 is, with a fair amount of change, more or less win 7.
The user interface (GUI, etc) of win 8 is (obviously) the major complaint.


Windows 8 does not have *a* user interface. Unlike previous versions
of Windows, Windows 8 has two interfaces; the Modern/Metro Interface
(which may be all you've looked at) and the traditional Desktop
Interface. You can use either one or both.


And here we get the point:
Without a clear user interface it's crap. There's not even a Start
button :-(


There wasn't in 8.0, but there *is* in 8.1. True, it doesn't do
everything the old start button did, but it's very easy to get that
all back, with a third party program, either free (such as Classic
Shell) or very inexpensive (such as the $4.99 Start8, my personal
favorite).


Classic Shell is the way to go, indeed. For both 8 and 8.1.

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 09:27:50 +0200, Fokke Nauta
wrote:

On 15/09/2014 23:51, Ken Blake wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 21:56:36 +0200, Fokke Nauta
wrote:

On 15/09/2014 19:11, Ken Blake wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 07:13:01 -0400, Charlie wrote:

Win 8.1 is, with a fair amount of change, more or less win 7.
The user interface (GUI, etc) of win 8 is (obviously) the major complaint.


Windows 8 does not have *a* user interface. Unlike previous versions
of Windows, Windows 8 has two interfaces; the Modern/Metro Interface
(which may be all you've looked at) and the traditional Desktop
Interface. You can use either one or both.


And here we get the point:
Without a clear user interface it's crap. There's not even a Start
button :-(


There wasn't in 8.0, but there *is* in 8.1. True, it doesn't do
everything the old start button did, but it's very easy to get that
all back, with a third party program, either free (such as Classic
Shell) or very inexpensive (such as the $4.99 Start8, my personal
favorite).


Classic Shell is the way to go, indeed. For both 8 and 8.1.


You say "indeed," as if you are agreeing with me. But I disagree; I
think the very inexpensive Start8 is better, and if you haven't tried
it, I recommend that you do. It comes with a free 30-day trial.

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 20:15:14 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 14:54:52 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 21:13:02 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

A bad choice Microsoft made here, as far as I'm concerned. The default
should have been the choice of the person who install it.


but (a) it has a tendency to revert to it if you _do_ manage
to get to the desktop one,


Manage? That's a very strong word. It's extremely easy to get to it.
And in my experience it *never* reverts to the Modern interface.

The mileage of others may vary. ;-)

Mine used to revert to the Modern UI quite frequently, but over the past
year I've just about beaten it into submission. Its episodes are much less
frequent now, but it still manages to surprise me from time to time.



Yes, I know you've said that before. But I still don't understand how
it does that itself on your machine or any other one. It doesn't do
that on either machine here.

In fact, if it were to happen on my wife's machine, she'd probably
scream to me for help "WHAT HAPPENED?"

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 20:09:59 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:


I think that for most people, the enjoyment of using a computer is
related to the user interface much more than the strength of the OS
underneath.


I suppose there are some people to whom using a computer is a matter
of enjoyment, but it isn't to me. I use a computer primarily because
of the tools it provides me. I don't play any games on it.



IMO, the Win 8 Metro is a big PITA unless on a small laptop, tablet, or
smart phone. Too much wasted effort to swipe, touch, etc. on the
screen, leaving fingerprints all over the place.


I'm probably not quite as strong about that as you are, but I largely
agree. But bear in mind that you *can* use a mouse with the
Metro/Modern interface; no touch screen is required.




I'm trying to "merge" the two, making 8.1 more visually like 7 using 3rd
party apps.


I use Start 8, and use the desktop interface almost exclusively. To
me, Windows 8 is almost exactly like Windows 7.



Even a bit of XP with a Quick Launch Bar.



But I greatly prefer the merging of the task bar with the quick launch
bar. It keeps each icon in the same single place and I can simply
click on it without having to remember whether the application is
already open or not.


I think you should use whatever gives you the best experience with the
computer, and not what others say you should use.



I *strongly* agree.

On 9/16/2014 11:37 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 20:09:59 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:


I think that for most people, the enjoyment of using a computer is
related to the user interface much more than the strength of the OS
underneath.


I suppose there are some people to whom using a computer is a matter
of enjoyment, but it isn't to me. I use a computer primarily because
of the tools it provides me. I don't play any games on it.



IMO, the Win 8 Metro is a big PITA unless on a small laptop, tablet, or
smart phone. Too much wasted effort to swipe, touch, etc. on the
screen, leaving fingerprints all over the place.


I'm probably not quite as strong about that as you are, but I largely
agree. But bear in mind that you *can* use a mouse with the
Metro/Modern interface; no touch screen is required.




I'm trying to "merge" the two, making 8.1 more visually like 7 using 3rd
party apps.


I use Start 8, and use the desktop interface almost exclusively. To
me, Windows 8 is almost exactly like Windows 7.



Even a bit of XP with a Quick Launch Bar.



But I greatly prefer the merging of the task bar with the quick launch
bar. It keeps each icon in the same single place and I can simply
click on it without having to remember whether the application is
already open or not.


I think you should use whatever gives you the best experience with the
computer, and not what others say you should use.



I *strongly* agree.


I agree that Windows 8.1 set to start to the desktop makes Windows 8.1 a
very usable machine with an interface that is basically an Evolved
Windows XP.

However, while I first missed the old Start Button, I find that right
clicking on the MS Icon in the lower left on the Desktop screen, (the
left end of the Desktop tool bar), gives me all of the flexibility of
the old Start menu.

The System option, from the right click on the MS Icon, provides access
to the most frequently OS things I need.

If I had to rate my OS accesses, I believe the most frequent would be
the Task Manager. This is generally access with a right click on the
Desk top toolbar. (Or from a right click on the MS Icon)

The next most frequently access items is the System above.

I never used the old Documents from the old Start Menu, but find that I
use the Jumplist all of the time.

In my opinion, the combination of the right click MS Icon plus the
jumplist is much better than the old Start button.

.. . .winston wrote:
A wrote:
. . .winston wrote:
A wrote:
Drew wrote:
Hey all. Getting a high end system put together and was wondering
about
preferences for future.
I am wondering which way to go on the op system. Win 8.1 64, win 8.1
pro
or win 7 pro ? Many here will say stay away from 8 and others will say
go 8.1 and skip 7...If I stayed with win 7 I would certainly look into
start8 or classic shell. Let the scrap begin!!

Specs will be Intel core i5 4690k processor
16gigs 1866 ram
Nvidia 780 gtx 3 gig video card
2 256 gig ssd's 1 for op system 1 for programs and some light gaming
2 terrabyte drive for storage. music etc
I seldom if ever use media centre as I use itunes etc for music

I would get 7 while you still can. You can always upgrade later if 9
proves to be worth it. If you really want high end, get an Intel i7.



While Windows 7 has very loyal following and is a good o/s, imo, if
planning on moving to a new and other o/s in the future then Windows 8.1
Pro would be my choice for a new system.

Why?
Upgrading from Windows 7 to Windows 8.1 is a clean install (programs
need to be reinstalled). Later o/s will most likely follow suit for
moving from Win7.

Windows 8.1 is only available in full version software not upgrade-ware.
Likewise, Win9 will also be full version software.

Moving to a later o/s (e.g. Win9 or later) is likely to provide (even
though its full version software) the ability to upgrade with user
settings and programs intact.

If your system is being built...it would be extremely beneficial if your
system builder/OEM manufacturer also provides your software on
installable media.
- i.e. if your route to reinstall the software is by restoring to the
as-shipped PC condition then consider the points noted above and how
much effort and time you are willing to buy-in to.

Good luck.



I don't do upgrades. I clean install. Most of a clean install and
reinstalling programs involves waiting. While waiting, I do other
things. If only had one computer, it would be different but I have
several. Personally, after seeing the sneak peeks to Windows 9, I will
be skipping 8.1 just like I skipped Vista.

If not doing upgrades (yourself) then it really doesn't make sense to
suggest "You can always upgrade later if 9 proves to be worth it" and
upgrade path from Win7.
- There's no upgrade path from Win7 to 8.1 (and with MSFT
discontinuing upgrade ware in lieu of full version ware) there's won't
be upgrade ware for 9 either.

Thus the correct advice would be - You can always **clean install**
Windows 9 later if it proves to be worth it.

That's what I meant. If you upgrade to a new computer you don't need the
old one to do it :-)


Granted 'upgrade' is term that is interchangeably used when moving from
one o/s to a later o/s...but in the case of MSFT the only upgrade path
from Win7 is to Win8.0 since 8.0 is the last 'upgrade' wear. The same
occurs in Office - no upgrade wear, all full version and priced
accordingly.



--
A

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:37:41 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

I suppose there are some people to whom using a computer is a matter
of enjoyment, but it isn't to me. I use a computer primarily because
of the tools it provides me. I don't play any games on it.

I'm not sure why you (seem to) conflate enjoying a computer with playing
games on one.

I enjoy using the computer, and I don't play games on it.

To me:

Writing even a very simple program to run on my Android phone, for
instance, is fun.

Learning enough Java to write a small program that I originally wrote in
C is enjoyable.

I had a good time figuring out how to get a useful display of my fuel
consumption in Excel.

These are just a few items off the top of my head...

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On 9/16/14 9:37 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 20:09:59 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:


I think that for most people, the enjoyment of using a computer is
related to the user interface much more than the strength of the OS
underneath.


I suppose there are some people to whom using a computer is a matter
of enjoyment, but it isn't to me. I use a computer primarily because
of the tools it provides me. I don't play any games on it.

Maybe I should define "enjoyment". LOL I wasn't specifically meaning
listening to music, watching movies, videos, etc. I was more generally
meaning "how it works".

For example, the keyboard that came with this Mac, and AFAIK with all
current Macs, is the aluminum, almost chicklet type keyboard. I can't
type worth feces on that dumba$$ keyboard. So I'm on my 3rd of the
older Apple Pro keyboards.

In this pic,
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...b/IMG_0334.jpg, the
bottom two keyboards are the chicklet style. The bottom one is
wireless, the middle one is what came with this computer, & I use the
upper one. Unfortunately, the middle and upper keyboards are not 100%
compatible, so some of the multimedia keys do not work. But I don't
watch movies and such, and like you, I don't play games.

IMO, the Win 8 Metro is a big PITA unless on a small laptop, tablet, or
smart phone. Too much wasted effort to swipe, touch, etc. on the
screen, leaving fingerprints all over the place.


I'm probably not quite as strong about that as you are, but I largely
agree. But bear in mind that you *can* use a mouse with the
Metro/Modern interface; no touch screen is required.

But that Metro/Modern interface wastes so much screen real estate. The
All Apps screen in 8.0 wasn't too bad. I'm not going to play with the
Metro interface in 8.1 at this time to see what it offers for the all
apps screen.

I'm trying to "merge" the two, making 8.1 more visually like 7 using 3rd
party apps.


I use Start 8, and use the desktop interface almost exclusively. To
me, Windows 8 is almost exactly like Windows 7.

I chose Start Menu8 Plus. http://sur.ly/o/winok-msixray.com/AA001290
Haven't yet gotten into it, so no opinion yet other than I like the look
and feel.

Even a bit of XP with a Quick Launch Bar.



But I greatly prefer the merging of the task bar with the quick launch
bar. It keeps each icon in the same single place and I can simply
click on it without having to remember whether the application is
already open or not.

I like small icons, and in XP the small icons are smaller than the small
icons in 7. (Somehow, that sounds weird! LOL) So, in a given
physical space, I have twice as many icons in XP as I can have in 7.
This may not be as big a deal for my 7 machine, since I've got a
widescreen monitor there, and the XP machine has a 19" CRT. Plus, in
XP, I've pulled my XP Quick Launch bar on to the desktop so it's in a
window. I don't know if I'll be able to do that with the quick launch
bar I plan on installing.

Since I'll also be using virtual/alternative desktops, it may not matter
in any way, shape, or form. LOL

I think you should use whatever gives you the best experience with the
computer, and not what others say you should use.



I *strongly* agree.

I find I'll sometimes have more than one 3rd party utility installed
that do ostensibly the same thing, and I'll use the features in each
that suit me the best.

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 25.0
Thunderbird 24.6.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 16:41:53 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:37:41 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

I suppose there are some people to whom using a computer is a matter
of enjoyment, but it isn't to me. I use a computer primarily because
of the tools it provides me. I don't play any games on it.

I'm not sure why you (seem to) conflate enjoying a computer with playing
games on one.


No, no, I meant playing games as only one example as a way some people
enjoy it. See below.



I enjoy using the computer, and I don't play games on it.

To me:

Writing even a very simple program to run on my Android phone, for
instance, is fun.

Learning enough Java to write a small program that I originally wrote in
C is enjoyable.

I had a good time figuring out how to get a useful display of my fuel
consumption in Excel.

These are just a few items off the top of my head...


I guess I didn't make myself clear. It's not that I never enjoy using
it. It's that I don't use it for the purpose of having a good time.
Many people who do little on a computer but play games on it see it as
a machine solely for the purpose of enjoyment. I don't.

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 18:38:23 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 16:41:53 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:37:41 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

I suppose there are some people to whom using a computer is a matter
of enjoyment, but it isn't to me. I use a computer primarily because
of the tools it provides me. I don't play any games on it.

I'm not sure why you (seem to) conflate enjoying a computer with playing
games on one.

No, no, I meant playing games as only one example as a way some people
enjoy it. See below.

Thanks - I'm glad I was wrong.

I enjoy using the computer, and I don't play games on it.

To me:

Writing even a very simple program to run on my Android phone, for
instance, is fun.

Learning enough Java to write a small program that I originally wrote in
C is enjoyable.

I had a good time figuring out how to get a useful display of my fuel
consumption in Excel.

These are just a few items off the top of my head...

I guess I didn't make myself clear. It's not that I never enjoy using
it. It's that I don't use it for the purpose of having a good time.
Many people who do little on a computer but play games on it see it as
a machine solely for the purpose of enjoyment. I don't.

OK, understood :-)

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On 9/14/2014 9:14 AM, Drew wrote:
On 9/14/2014 8:50 AM, Drew wrote:
Hey all. Getting a high end system put together and was wondering about
preferences for future.
I am wondering which way to go on the op system. Win 8.1 64, win 8.1 pro
or win 7 pro ? Many here will say stay away from 8 and others will say
go 8.1 and skip 7...If I stayed with win 7 I would certainly look into
start8 or classic shell. Let the scrap begin!!

Specs will be Intel core i5 4690k processor
16gigs 1866 ram
Nvidia 780 gtx 3 gig video card
2 256 gig ssd's 1 for op system 1 for programs and some light gaming
2 terrabyte drive for storage. music etc
I seldom if ever use media centre as I use itunes etc for music

Oops! major typo's here. win 8.1, win 8.1 pro or win7 all 64 and start8
or classic shell on win 8.1 (not win7)


Just a follow up. decided to tweak the parts list by going with a core
i7 and faster ram and then went with windows 8.1 with which I will
definitely install either classic shell or start8. I figure since win 9
will be out semi soon I can be somewhat prepared if I so choose. I use
this or will use this for work mostly as well as the odd simulator.

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:27:37 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 20:15:14 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 14:54:52 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 21:13:02 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

A bad choice Microsoft made here, as far as I'm concerned. The default
should have been the choice of the person who install it.


but (a) it has a tendency to revert to it if you _do_ manage
to get to the desktop one,


Manage? That's a very strong word. It's extremely easy to get to it.
And in my experience it *never* reverts to the Modern interface.

The mileage of others may vary. ;-)

Mine used to revert to the Modern UI quite frequently, but over the past
year I've just about beaten it into submission. Its episodes are much less
frequent now, but it still manages to surprise me from time to time.



Yes, I know you've said that before. But I still don't understand how
it does that itself on your machine or any other one. It doesn't do
that on either machine here.

In fact, if it were to happen on my wife's machine, she'd probably
scream to me for help "WHAT HAPPENED?"

It just happened now. I purchased a Bluetooth-capable device today and it
very easily paired up with my phone, so I wanted to see if it would also
pair with my laptop. I enabled the Bluetooth 'adapter' and a BT icon
appeared in the System Tray, or Notification Area, whatever it's called. I
right-clicked on it and selected the default menu item, Show Bluetooth
Devices. *Poof* The entire screen turned blue, with a garishly large
Bluetooth or gear icon in the center. Way off to the left were a couple of
text items, almost unnoticeable in the giant sea of blue.

To get back to normal, I pressed the Windows key, which took me to the
Modern UI, then I clicked on the Desktop tile.

This example came along at the perfect time. Not only are we currently
discussing this very issue, but I also happened to NOT be in front of a
crowded room giving one of my presentations.

I very, very strongly suspect that your machine, and everyone else's, would
do exactly the same thing under the same circumstances. It's quite jarring
and completely unwanted.

--

Char Jackson

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 16:41:53 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:37:41 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

I suppose there are some people to whom using a computer is a matter
of enjoyment, but it isn't to me. I use a computer primarily because
of the tools it provides me. I don't play any games on it.

I'm not sure why you (seem to) conflate enjoying a computer with playing
games on one.

I enjoy using the computer, and I don't play games on it.

To me:

Writing even a very simple program to run on my Android phone, for
instance, is fun.

Learning enough Java to write a small program that I originally wrote in
C is enjoyable.

I had a good time figuring out how to get a useful display of my fuel
consumption in Excel.

These are just a few items off the top of my head...

+1

I had the same reaction to Ken's post, and I also enjoy each of the three
examples you provided above. We're all different, I guess, except when we're
not.

--

Char Jackson

On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:17:05 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 16:41:53 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:37:41 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

I suppose there are some people to whom using a computer is a matter
of enjoyment, but it isn't to me. I use a computer primarily because
of the tools it provides me. I don't play any games on it.

I'm not sure why you (seem to) conflate enjoying a computer with playing
games on one.

I enjoy using the computer, and I don't play games on it.

To me:

Writing even a very simple program to run on my Android phone, for
instance, is fun.

Learning enough Java to write a small program that I originally wrote in
C is enjoyable.

I had a good time figuring out how to get a useful display of my fuel
consumption in Excel.

These are just a few items off the top of my head...

+1

I had the same reaction to Ken's post, and I also enjoy each of the three
examples you provided above. We're all different, I guess, except when we're
not.

Note that Ken replied to indicate that he didn't mean it the way I took
it, just that

"It's not that I never enjoy using it. It's that I don't use it for the
purpose of having a good time"

and other clarifications. So, as you said, "We're all different, I
guess, except when we're not".

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)