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Does the best price:performance choice in any common consumer electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?
Does the best priceerformance choice in any common consumer electronics
device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time? As an example, my first Android smart phone was a (carrier subsidized) approximately $800 8GB Samsung Galaxy S3, where the next device was a T-Mobile ~$250 8GB Nexus 4 which was so bad it was swapped back to T-Mobile for a ~$350 16GB Nexus 5, which was, itself, replaced with this $200 8GB Google Moto-G, which itself, after it fell off a cliff with me, was replaced with this far better $130 32GB LG Stylo 3 Plus (which is my current Android phone). https://i.postimg.cc/YSq4d4V6/motog-stylo3plus01.jpg This question isn't just about phones though, which is why the PC group is involved, since TVs, monitors, computers, cameras, calculators, optical burners, LED lights, GPS receivers, electronics levels, laser devices, printers, security cams, etc., all seem to follow the basic electronic price-performance trend of better, faster, and cheaper over time. Bearing in mind that any fool can find a horrible price to performance ratio, the question is, by its very nature, limited to the BEST price to performance choices at the time (and not the worst, which any fool can do). Hence, the question, assuming the best price-to-performance choices: Q: Does the best priceerformance choice in any common consumer electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time? That is, does anything just go up in price year after year, or does all electronics just get better, faster, and cheaper over time? |
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#2
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Does the best price:performance choice in any common consumerelectronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?
On 7/4/2019 12:29 PM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
snip That is, does anything just go up in price year after year, or does all electronics just get better, faster, and cheaper over time? Prices do go up sometimes because of inflation. In inflation adjusted-dollars prices usually come down. Vehicle prices have generally come down, in inflation-adjusted dollars as well. In 1996 we bought a Toyota Camry for a street price of about $16,900. Adjusted for inflation, the same model should cost about $27,000 today, but it is actually about $20,500, and the 2019 model has a lot more stuff on it, ABS, TPMS, traction control, Bluetooth, Lane Departure Warning, Collision Avoidance warning, RKE, 5x as many airbags, etc.. It's not how much it costs to manufacture that determines the price, it's what the market will bear. That's what we're seeing with flagship smart phones lately as well. The market was just not willing to accept the initial prices of high-end phones from Apple and Samsung, at least not for high-volume sales. So all sorts of incentives and discounts were introduced. |
#3
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Does the best price:performance choice in any common consumer electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?
sms wrote
Arlen G. Holder wrote That is, does anything just go up in price year after year, or does all electronics just get better, faster, and cheaper over time? Prices do go up sometimes because of inflation. Hardly ever with electronic stuff. In inflation adjusted-dollars prices usually come down. Vehicle prices have generally come down, in inflation- adjusted dollars as well. In 1996 we bought a Toyota Camry for a street price of about $16,900. Adjusted for inflation, the same model should cost about $27,000 today, That’s quite a tricky thing to calculate because the official inflation rate includes lots of stuff that has no relevance to the real inflation rate seen with the price of cars most obviously with the retail price of houses which is driven by other factors entirely. but it is actually about $20,500, and the 2019 model has a lot more stuff on it, ABS, TPMS, traction control, Bluetooth, Lane Departure Warning, Collision Avoidance warning, RKE, 5x as many airbags, etc.. It's not how much it costs to manufacture that determines the price, it's what the market will bear. That’s not true of high end smartphones. That's what we're seeing with flagship smart phones lately as well. The market was just not willing to accept the initial prices of high-end phones from Apple and Samsung, at least not for high-volume sales. That is just plain wrong with the initial sales of the XR and XS So all sorts of incentives and discounts were introduced. BULL****. And another quite different effect is seen with stuff like motherboard cpus where we have seen for a very long time now very high initial prices which come down to much more reasonably prices after the initial price. That appears to mostly be deliberate gouging of those who must have whatever is at the cutting edge. |
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Does the best price:performance choice in any common consumerelectronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?
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Hash: SHA256 Arlen G. Holder wrote: Does the best priceerformance choice in any common consumer electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time? No. For any given price-point, devices will tend to have better specs in 2-3 years than they do today. Be it a cell phone, harddrive, computer, automobile, etc. (Granted, "software" takes things in the other direction; requiring more and more of that "performance" to do the same task). -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEBcqaUD8uEzVNxUrujhHd8xJ5ooEFAl0fJh QACgkQjhHd8xJ5 ooF48Af+NMG9eHIfGzJa9mkxGWHJkqgOZJHqB+qAc2eY/F/V03Qsu7Xs3b1tBkoB nDqUdVQ8nw/lDGokQKuBz9oxj3drcuIS1O9fGUPkToSwJYKhGAlimd1R+lSVM r4h rTwbl6KNUPitLEt1HnlQMkOdk9iOMGq2CUfKgTrq/+pBGahBeAPB5F/EYwiIQ2Ku eUr21UK2wcyABD+et+D+Lpq+vcr8T5hierhl+gCnorXi8AM63k +OCvE/2oPVCPdx qeXe3/Uzq5p3tOzkGp6Mmq9vUXyGBBqnVnEnirpLi/KGdzpFf9s5j04fYtPIGdqo eQztw8YdCEQg4ZuCoDkYXEKXnKUQ4w== =xj0q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- |_|O|_| |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert |O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281 |
#5
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Does the best price:performance choice in any common consumer electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?
Unlocked 128GB Samsung Galaxy S10 Plus on sale for $700
https://i.postimg.cc/PrhBVVt5/samsungs10plus.jpg I already bought my $100 Moto G7 stocking stuffers, where this is a great gift phone for those who buy the flagship products. o Unlocked 128GB Samsung Galaxy S10 Plus on sale for $700 (free shipping) https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Galaxy-Plus-Phone-128GB/dp/B07N4L36H7/ |
#6
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Does the best price:performance choice in any common consumer electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?
On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 19:29:10 -0000 (UTC), Arlen G. Holder wrote:
Does the best priceerformance choice in any common consumer electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time? From MacWorld, for your Memorial Day weekend shelter-in-place humor... This humorous poke at Apple's version of "economic theory" is apropos... "From laptops that require multiple dongles to work properly and hefty upgrade costs for memory or storage to the iPad keyboards *with price tags that defy any known theory of economics*: the constant drip feed of penny-pinching from the world's first trillion-dollar company..." The whole article is here, but the point is Appleconomics is where MARKETING tells the consumer what they will "courageously" want! o Different Think: Why Apple needs to stop being so cheap https://www.macworld.co.uk/opinion/apple/different-think-apple-cheap-3788153/ Example, (verbatim)... (there's a _lot_ more in the article!) *I didn't choose the dongle life* Take, for example, the great headphone debacle that began with the iPhone 7. Here came the funky new model that everyone wanted, with Apple touting its decision to include no headphone jack absolutely free of charge. That's right, customers were blessed with a couple of millimetres of additional brushed aluminium to cover up the ugly hole that existed on the previous models. Courage. Obviously, this caused a bit of a problem for those who wanted to use their current, wired headphones, so Apple saw them off at the pass with the inclusion of an adapter that connected them to the Lightning port. It was ugly, but it worked... well, for a while until the damn thing either got lost or broke. Dongle life had begun. This was followed by the iPhone 8, which told a similar story until it was updated a while later and the adapter was quietly dropped from the box, replaced by a pair of Lightning EarPods instead. Now, some will say this is a good thing, as you get working headphones with your iPhone, but if you already had a pair you liked then to use them meant a trip to the Apple Store to buy a dongle. This would be followed up, shortly afterwards, with a second trip to replace the first one that had disappeared somehow. Magical. Why not simply put both in the box? iPhones are expensive, dongles are not, so why withhold this thing that helps customers and ensures that 'it just works'? (If you think this is bad, word on the grapevine is that Apple is considering not including any headphones at all with the iPhone 12." There's a _lot_ more of this humor in the MacWorld article... -- Given it's what I've been saying for decades, you have to allow me the humor of reading, with great satisfaction, that _some_ people get details. (not many, but some) |
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Does the best price:performance choice in any common consumer electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?
On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 08:48:09 +1000, Rod Speed wrote:
Prices do go up sometimes because of inflation. Hardly ever with electronic stuff. Anyone who took macro & micro in even undergrad courses knows full well instantly why Apple MARKETING is so successful at defying the basic economic trend of "better faster cheaper" over time... To that end, here's a humorous look, from MacWorld, published this week: o *Why Apple needs to stop being so cheap*" https://www.macworld.co.uk/opinion/apple/different-think-apple-cheap-3788153/ *Courageous Decisions*: "Take, for example, the great headphone debacle that began with the iPhone 7. Here came the funky new model that everyone wanted, with Apple touting its decision to include no headphone jack absolutely free of charge. That's right, customers were blessed with a couple of millimetres of additional brushed aluminium to cover up the ugly hole that existed on the previous models. Courage." *Slow Power*: "the iPhone 11, iPhone XR, iPhone SE and aforementioned iPhone 8 all support fast charging, but Apple only puts the standard (slow) charger in the box even when you've blown over a grand..." *Low Storage*: "the standard iPad now has less storage than the cheapest iPhone SE, all while being positioned as a possible replacement for your laptop" *Expensive iCloud*: "Hey, look, have 5GB on us for free! Whoop-de-doo!" *Overall Summary*: "From laptops that require multiple dongles to work properly and hefty upgrade costs for memory or storage to the iPad keyboards with price tags that defy any known theory of economics: the constant drip feed of penny-pinching from the world's first trillion-dollar company..." It was a humorous poke at _how_ Apple makes its money off of you! o Dateline 24 May 20 Plenty more in the humorous article by MacWorld. In summary: "At the moment, Apple is one of the richest companies the world has ever known... Yet, amidst all this plenty there is the sense that the customer should often be expected to pay a little bit more to get the finished article." -- *It's a humorous poke at _how_ Apple makes its money off you!* |
#8
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OT: Arlen breaks his one "rules" (was Does the best price:performance choice in any common consumer electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?
On 2020-05-25 9:41 a.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 19:29:10 -0000 (UTC), Arlen G. Holder wrote: Does the best priceerformance choice in any common consumer electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time? From MacWorld, for your Memorial Day weekend shelter-in-place humor... Funny... Did you go on just the other day about how you don't post information in inappropriate groups? How is an article from MacWorld appropriate in this group, Arlen? |
#9
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OT: Arlen breaks his own "rules" (was Does the best price:performance choice in any common consumer electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?
On 2020-05-25 9:46 a.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 08:48:09 +1000, Rod Speed wrote: Prices do go up sometimes because of inflation. Hardly ever with electronic stuff. Anyone who took macro & micro in even undergrad courses knows full well instantly why Apple MARKETING is so successful at defying the basic economic trend of "better faster cheaper" over time... To that end, here's a humorous look, from MacWorld, published this week: o *Why Apple needs to stop being so cheap*" https://www.macworld.co.uk/opinion/apple/different-think-apple-cheap-3788153/ Funny... Did you go on just the other day about how you don't post information in inappropriate groups? How is an article from MacWorld appropriate in this group, Arlen? And how it appropriate to post it twice? |
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Does the best price:performance choice in any common consumer electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?
Factual Update
See also: o *Instead of lowering prices, Apple literally DOUBLES the price* *of RAM upgrade on the 13-Inch MacBook Pro* https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.sys.mac.system/kKoj8NhSzI0/3tzZjjqmAQAJ "what makes today's change unusual beyond the fact that *it is an increase rather than a typical decrease*" -- Only very highly marketed products can sustain price increases over time. |
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Does the best price:performance choice in any common consumer electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?
On 2020-05-31 12:22 a.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
Factual Update See also: o *Instead of lowering prices, Apple literally DOUBLES the price* *of RAM upgrade on the 13-Inch MacBook Pro* https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.sys.mac.system/kKoj8NhSzI0/3tzZjjqmAQAJ "what makes today's change unusual beyond the fact that *it is an increase rather than a typical decrease*" What you didn't quote: 'These fluctuations in component pricing are generally due to changes in supply and demand. For example, it’s possible that Apple’s supplier for entry-level MacBook Pro RAM is experiencing disruptions, whether it be because of COVID-19 or other changes.' |
#12
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Does the best price:performance choice in any common consumer electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-05-31 12:22 a.m., Arlen Holder wrote: Factual Update See also: o *Instead of lowering prices, Apple literally DOUBLES the price* *of RAM upgrade on the 13-Inch MacBook Pro* https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.sys.mac.system/kKoj8NhSzI0/3tzZjjqmAQAJ "what makes today's change unusual beyond the fact that *it is an increase rather than a typical decrease*" What you didn't quote: 'These fluctuations in component pricing are generally due to changes in supply and demand. For example, it’s possible that Apple’s supplier for entry-level MacBook Pro RAM is experiencing disruptions, whether it be because of COVID-19 or other changes.' There's more to it than that. The MacBook Pro is a low-profile machine, with RAM chips soldered to the motherboard. If there is a temporary supply fluctuation ("can't make motherboards, COVID19"), the company may attempt to convince punters to accept 8GB machines, by bumping the price of 16GB machines. That's a theory, if the case happened to be there was a large stack of 8GB motherboards, and no 16GB motherboards left. Now, we know their supply management isn't that haphazard, and they couldn't possibly have run out of 16GB motherboards. Normally when Apple puts unreasonable prices on SODIMM or DIMM upgrades, you just stick-handle around them. I got an Apple machine with min-RAM in it (single DIMM), then put four modules of some Samsung in it myself, and it was flawless for the life of the machine. At the time that was 4x512MB DDR333 RAM, in my MacOSX quad nostril machine running 10.2.8 or so. And that's why you buy hardware with removable components, so you can shop the market and cut the fat out. Soldering RAM to motherboards is "criminal". I did a processor board like that once :-) At work. But because it was an embedded system, there didn't need to be an upgrade strategy at the time. And the processor board was small and could be unplugged and replaced (we weren't planning on replacing it, but nevertheless, we put the capability there so we would not look too dopey when the inevitable happened). I wasn't feeling a lot of guilt. And it was a lot of fun doing Spice simulations to prove why the RAM positions on that PCB, worked. You can make a nice flat planar that way. We couldn't use SODIMMs in there, because there was no room. I'm not convinced that the industry could not make planar subsystems to allow upgrading "super-flat" computers. But it sure is convenient to gouge a customer when you solder all that crap in. Same goes for the invention of soldered-down eMMC. Totally unnecessary game-playing and customer-screwing. Paul |
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Does the best price:performance choice in any common consumerelectronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?
On 5/31/2020 1:41 PM, Paul wrote:
Normally when Apple puts unreasonable prices on SODIMM or DIMM upgrades, you just stick-handle around them. I got an Apple machine with min-RAM in it (single DIMM), then put four modules of some Samsung in it myself, and it was flawless for the life of the machine. At the time that was 4x512MB DDR333 RAM, in my MacOSX quad nostril machine running 10.2.8 or so. Like any company, Apple charges what the market will bear. They are generally very good about pricing strategy. The original iPhone was an exception, they dropped the price by $200 shortly after it was released. Since it was a new product category, and they didn't really know how much to charge, they had to walk back the price. That infuriated some early adopters but Jobs offered a $100 credit in the Apple store to placate those that were upset https://www.macworld.com/article/1059878/credit.html. |
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Does the best price:performance choice in any common consumer electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?
On 2020-05-31 1:41 p.m., Paul wrote:
Alan Baker wrote: On 2020-05-31 12:22 a.m., Arlen Holder wrote: Factual Update See also: o *Instead of lowering prices, Apple literally DOUBLES the price* Â*Â* *of RAM upgrade on the 13-Inch MacBook Pro* https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.sys.mac.system/kKoj8NhSzI0/3tzZjjqmAQAJ Â*Â*Â* "what makes today's change unusual beyond the fact that Â*Â*Â* *it is an increase rather than a typical decrease*" What you didn't quote: 'These fluctuations in component pricing are generally due to changes in supply and demand. For example, it’s possible that Apple’s supplier for entry-level MacBook Pro RAM is experiencing disruptions, whether it be because of COVID-19 or other changes.' There's more to it than that. Of course there is. I mostly wanted to point out the hypocrisy. :-) The MacBook Pro is a low-profile machine, with RAM chips soldered to the motherboard. If there is a temporary supply fluctuation ("can't make motherboards, COVID19"), the company may attempt to convince punters to accept 8GB machines, by bumping the price of 16GB machines. That's a theory, if the case happened to be there was a large stack of 8GB motherboards, and no 16GB motherboards left. Now, we know their supply management isn't that haphazard, and they couldn't possibly have run out of 16GB motherboards. Normally when Apple puts unreasonable prices on SODIMM or DIMM upgrades, you just stick-handle around them. I got an Apple machine with min-RAM in it (single DIMM), then put four modules of some Samsung in it myself, and it was flawless for the life of the machine. At the time that was 4x512MB DDR333 RAM, in my MacOSX quad nostril machine running 10.2.8 or so. And that's why you buy hardware with removable components, so you can shop the market and cut the fat out. Soldering RAM to motherboards is "criminal". I did a processor board like that once :-) At work. But because it was an embedded system, there didn't need to be an upgrade strategy at the time. And the processor board was small and could be unplugged and replaced (we weren't planning on replacing it, but nevertheless, we put the capability there so we would not look too dopey when the inevitable happened). I wasn't feeling a lot of guilt. And it was a lot of fun doing Spice simulations to prove why the RAM positions on that PCB, worked. You can make a nice flat planar that way. We couldn't use SODIMMs in there, because there was no room. I'm not convinced that the industry could not make planar subsystems to allow upgrading "super-flat" computers. But it sure is convenient to gouge a customer when you solder all that crap in. Same goes for the invention of soldered-down eMMC. Totally unnecessary game-playing and customer-screwing. 1. Ordinary folks don't upgrade very often, so you're including a capability that will make the thing cost more AND be a little bulkier. 2. People like sleek design. |
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Does the best price:performance choice in any common consumer electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?
On Sun, 31 May 2020 16:33:14 -0700, sms wrote:
Like any company, Apple charges what the market will bear. They are generally very good about pricing strategy. The original iPhone was an exception, they dropped the price by $200 shortly after it was released. Since it was a new product category, and they didn't really know how much to charge, they had to walk back the price. That infuriated some early adopters but Jobs offered a $100 credit in the Apple store to placate those that were upset https://www.macworld.com/article/1059878/credit.html. Dateline today, all verbatim given apologists play silly semantic games. "Pull up a chair, friend, and let me tell you a thing or two about a little company called Apple." o *Apple Silicon Macs will be cheaper than Intel Macs, right?* https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-silicon-macs-will-be-cheaper-than-intel-macs-right/ "There's a lot that we don't know about Apple Silicon powered Macs, but one question that's on the mind of a lot of people is whether this shift will result in cheaper Macs. It's a logical question. After all, an Apple Silicon Arm chip such as the A12X will surely be cheaper than a chip from Intel, right? Well, pull up a chair, friend, and let me tell you a thing or two about a little company called Apple." See also: o *Does the best priceerformance choice in any common consumer* *electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?* https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/gYbrI4EepAs -- Only extremely highly marketed consumer products go up in price in time. |
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